Why is frame time such a mess on PC?

NomenNescio

Dual Sense Edger and Blower
In every single performance video I watch, I never see a steady frame time, no matter how overpowered the hardware is. See this three examples:







Meanwhile on console:



You can see that frame time is never locked or consistent on PC like consoles. There are micro-stutters all over the place all the time. I'm not saying consoles are absolutely perfect, there are some hiccups here and there, but the graph is always an absolute Parkinson-level mess on PC.

I always see that in every single PC benchmark I watch. Is there something I'm missing here?
 
From what I've seen, you are typically only going to get a "locked" frame rate on console at 30fps. That's just as bad as games that stutter on PC, imo.
 
You can use RTSS and get a flat line frame time if you wanted to, and you should. But these benchmark vids don't use it, and games with built in frame limiters tend to be shit
 
An uncapped framerate and steady frametimes are mutually exclusive. Any video testing performance is going to have the framerate uncapped, so the frametimes are naturally going to vary.
 
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....Because you gotta lock your framerate and in many cases adjust the refresh rate of your monitor for that game so it matches the locked framerate
 
did you seriously just now learn what an UNCAPPED framerate means?
Jimmy Fallon Reaction GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon
 
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I always see that in every single PC benchmark I watch. Is there something I'm missing here?
as other said, you're missing the fact you have to cap your framerate first of all to get a steady frametime

And since we're on this topic, a lot of the "stutter-struggle" problem people here and DF always talk about can be fixed by simply disabling v-sync
 
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Because.... the frametimes are not locked in those examples....
An uncapped framerate and steady frametimes are mutually exclusive. Any video testing performance is going to have the framerate uncapped, so the frametimes are naturally going to vary.
....Because you gotta lock your framerate and in many cases adjust the refresh rate of your monitor for that game so it matches the locked framerate
How would one have a flat frametime graph with an unlocked framerate?

Isn't VRR supposed to solve that? If VRR theoretically syncs the refresh rate of the monitor to match the frame rate, no matter how much it varies.
 
Isn't VRR supposed to solve that? If VRR theoretically syncs the refresh rate of the monitor to match the frame rate, no matter how much it varies.
A - Frametime is just 1/fps, if the fps is uncapped it'll obviously still keep varying wildly
B - Are these benchmarks even using VRR?
 
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From what I've seen, you are typically only going to get a "locked" frame rate on console at 30fps. That's just as bad as games that stutter on PC, imo.
I don't understand what you mean. Tons of games on console have a locked and stable framerate of 60fps, even Switch games. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
 
Isn't VRR supposed to solve that? If VRR theoretically syncs the refresh rate of the monitor to match the frame rate, no matter how much it varies.
But how is the program drawing that frametime graph going to know about that? It doesn't measure what's being displayed on the monitor, it's measuring what the GPU is putting out.
 
If the monitor is always matching the time each frame is delivered, there shouldn't be any stuttering.
Frametime variability isn't stutter. Stutter is large frametime spikes that aren't what you are talking about.
This:
2pk7FZh.jpeg

Isn't stutter. It isnt good but it isn't what people are talking about when they say stutter.
Edit: NB this is the frametime graph for an unlocked game on PS5.
 
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I don't understand what you mean. Tons of games on console have a locked and stable framerate of 60fps, even Switch games. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

The DF videos I've seen have frame rate fluctuations at 60fps. When I think of "locked" then I'm thinking of a frame rate that never changes. Most of the games, intensive ones anyway, target 60fps, but it is rarely locked.
 
It is, but afterburner / rivatuner can fix it completely most of the time.
I'm actually surprised it's not more popular, I personally never play anything without it, and I've been using it for over a decade.
It's a problem that an external tool is needed for this, but it's a great tool and it really makes some game feel much smoother.
 
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In every single performance video I watch, I never see a steady frame time, no matter how overpowered the hardware is. See this three examples:







Meanwhile on console:



You can see that frame time is never locked or consistent on PC like consoles. There are micro-stutters all over the place all the time. I'm not saying consoles are absolutely perfect, there are some hiccups here and there, but the graph is always an absolute Parkinson-level mess on PC.

I always see that in every single PC benchmark I watch. Is there something I'm missing here?

I don't know why people are dogging you just for not knowing something.

Most people who play on PC play at uncapped framerates. This does, indeed, mean that their framerates are not "stable" per se, but it's widely agreed that variable framerates above 90fps (and for some people even 60fps) look great and smooth in motion, so long as VRR is enabled.

VRR is when your framerate output directly syncs with your monitor's refresh rate. So if you weren't using VRR on a 120hz monitor, and your game was running at 90fps, then every other frame would be duplicated on your display, resulting in choppy motion. But with VRR, your monitor would drop to 90hz, delivering a smooth video. And it adjusts in realtime, so anything really above 90fps will always look buttery-smooth.

However, the other big issue with modern PC frame times are framerate spikes, aka "stuttering". This is usually caused by shaders compiling in realtime, increasing a single frame time delivery from something like 8ms all the way up to crazy low speeds like 100-200+ms, but usually just for one or two frames.

Another common cause of this is traversal in large, usually open world games.

This problem primarily plagues PCs because every single PC setup is a little bit different. So even in games where you precompile your shaders before you start, it's pretty common for missed one-off shaders to be compiled in realtime as you play the game. Sometimes this will get better the more you play a game, and sometimes a game is just poorly coded and continues to stutter perpetually.

A lot of modern engines, especially Unreal, have had a particularly difficult time getting shader compiliation and traversal stutter under control. Usually, in the games where it's really bad, there will be patches and updates that help mitigate that. And, of course, the better your hardware is, the less bad the stuttering usually is. (However, even insane $5000+ rigs can still be susceptible to stuttering depending on the game.)

The reason why this doesn't usually happen on consoles is that every console uses the exact same hardware. So developers and ensure that each and every possible shader is compiled for, say, a PS5. And since every PS5 is identical, shader comp stutter is essentially entirely mitigated.

Traversal stutter on consoles is another story, though, and happens usually just as often as it does on PCs. But there are weird exceptions sometimes.

Additionally, because consoles offer a static experience, the developers are able to really min-max visual elements to give you the best possible consistent experience. For example, a 30fps game on a console might actually feel better than it performing at 30fps on a PC, because the developer can adjust things like motion blur and input tick rate to give you the best experience at that framerate. Adjusting stuff like that on PC is still possible, but it's generally up to the player to do so, which means you usually won't have the same polished experience.

That's one of the reasons why 30fps on console, depending on the game, doesn't always feel or look that bad. (Of course, it's still never more preferable than 40 or 60fps.)

Finally, consoles are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to unstable or uncapped framerates. For example, the PS5 only enables VRR at 48hz or higher, meaning an unstable framerate below that will look absolutely horrible. On most PC monitors, the VRR range is not only wider, but you can do things like put a lower framerate in a high framerate container (so your 40fps game is displaying on an 80hz monitor, and if it dips to 35fps, your monitor goes to 70hz, etc.)

Anyway, I hope this was helpful. Frame rates and frame times are super confusing and weird, and it gets even more complicated than what I went into.
 
The DF videos I've seen have frame rate fluctuations at 60fps. When I think of "locked" then I'm thinking of a frame rate that never changes. Most of the games, intensive ones anyway, target 60fps, but it is rarely locked.
There are tons of games that are locked at 60 on consoles. Usually if DF does a video on console framerates, it's because the game's not hitting a locked framerate and so they're analyzing what it really is.

But tons of PS5 (and especially PS5 Pro) games play at an absolutely locked 60fps, and many first-party Switch games do as well. I'd say it's far more rare to see unstable console framerates these days than it is to see stable.
 
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I don't know why people are dogging you just for not knowing something.

Most people who play on PC play at uncapped framerates. This does, indeed, mean that their framerates are not "stable" per se, but it's widely agreed that variable framerates above 90fps (and for some people even 60fps) look great and smooth in motion, so long as VRR is enabled.

VRR is when your framerate output directly syncs with your monitor's refresh rate. So if you weren't using VRR on a 120hz monitor, and your game was running at 90fps, then every other frame would be duplicated on your display, resulting in choppy motion. But with VRR, your monitor would drop to 90hz, delivering a smooth video. And it adjusts in realtime, so anything really above 90fps will always look buttery-smooth.

However, the other big issue with modern PC frame times are framerate spikes, aka "stuttering". This is usually caused by shaders compiling in realtime, increasing a single frame time delivery from something like 8ms all the way up to crazy low speeds like 100-200+ms, but usually just for one or two frames.

Another common cause of this is traversal in large, usually open world games.

This problem primarily plagues PCs because every single PC setup is a little bit different. So even in games where you precompile your shaders before you start, it's pretty common for missed one-off shaders to be compiled in realtime as you play the game. Sometimes this will get better the more you play a game, and sometimes a game is just poorly coded and continues to stutter perpetually.

A lot of modern engines, especially Unreal, have had a particularly difficult time getting shader compiliation and traversal stutter under control. Usually, in the games where it's really bad, there will be patches and updates that help mitigate that. And, of course, the better your hardware is, the less bad the stuttering usually is. (However, even insane $5000+ rigs can still be susceptible to stuttering depending on the game.)

The reason why this doesn't usually happen on consoles is that every console uses the exact same hardware. So developers and ensure that each and every possible shader is compiled for, say, a PS5. And since every PS5 is identical, shader comp stutter is essentially entirely mitigated.

Traversal stutter on consoles is another story, though, and happens usually just as often as it does on PCs. But there are weird exceptions sometimes.

Additionally, because consoles offer a static experience, the developers are able to really min-max visual elements to give you the best possible consistent experience. For example, a 30fps game on a console might actually feel better than it performing at 30fps on a PC, because the developer can adjust things like motion blur and input tick rate to give you the best experience at that framerate. Adjusting stuff like that on PC is still possible, but it's generally up to the player to do so, which means you usually won't have the same polished experience.

That's one of the reasons why 30fps on console, depending on the game, doesn't always feel or look that bad. (Of course, it's still never more preferable than 40 or 60fps.)

Finally, consoles are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to unstable or uncapped framerates. For example, the PS5 only enables VRR at 48hz or higher, meaning an unstable framerate below that will look absolutely horrible. On most PC monitors, the VRR range is not only wider, but you can do things like put a lower framerate in a high framerate container (so your 40fps game is displaying on an 80hz monitor, and if it dips to 35fps, your monitor goes to 70hz, etc.)

Anyway, I hope this was helpful. Frame rates and frame times are super confusing and weird, and it gets even more complicated than what I went into.
Thanks for the thorough response. I understand the issue better now.
 
There are tons of games that are locked at 60 on consoles. Usually if DF does a video on console framerates, it's because they're not hitting a locked framerate and so they're analyzing what it really is.

But tons of PS5 (and especially PS5 Pro) games play at an absolutely locked 60fps, and many first-party Switch games do as well. I'd say it's far more rare to see unstable console framerates these days than it is to see stable.

DF analyses every major game bro. Maybe we are not talking about the same thing here, because dips in frame rate are common in performance modes.

Monster Hunter Wilds:

"In terms of PS5 and Xbox Series X performance, the frame-rate mode does land on 60fps most of the time, but there are frequent dips to lower frame-rates that are mainly smoothed out by VRR displays."


Assassin's Creed Shadows
"Rounding out the selection is the performance mode, which offers a more fluid experience that benefits combat, notably in timing ripostes, but the visual downgrades are worth considering. Frame-rates are less stable here, too, with semi-frequent drops into the 50s - though this is well within the range of VRR on both PS5 and Series X."

Call of Duty BO6

"The second point relates to actual sub-60fps drops in action, which are thankfully few and far between. Again, PS5 and Series X are typically solid, but it is possible to trigger a drop to 50fps on each by triggering explosives. "
 
DF analyses every major game bro. Maybe we are not talking about the same thing here, because dips in frame rate are common in performance modes.

Monster Hunter Wilds:

"In terms of PS5 and Xbox Series X performance, the frame-rate mode does land on 60fps most of the time, but there are frequent dips to lower frame-rates that are mainly smoothed out by VRR displays."


Assassin's Creed Shadows
"Rounding out the selection is the performance mode, which offers a more fluid experience that benefits combat, notably in timing ripostes, but the visual downgrades are worth considering. Frame-rates are less stable here, too, with semi-frequent drops into the 50s - though this is well within the range of VRR on both PS5 and Series X."

Call of Duty BO6

"The second point relates to actual sub-60fps drops in action, which are thankfully few and far between. Again, PS5 and Series X are typically solid, but it is possible to trigger a drop to 50fps on each by triggering explosives. "
Ah, I guess to be fair I haven't played those games. I know Astro Bot was a locked 60 as far as I could tell.

Though I guess if PS5 games dip slightly into the 50s, I might not notice due to VRR anyway.
 
Ah, I guess to be fair I haven't played those games. I know Astro Bot was a locked 60 as far as I could tell.

Though I guess if PS5 games dip slightly into the 50s, I might not notice due to VRR anyway.

Same. I'll notice the occassional dip but nothing to get into a twist over.
 
If the framerate is inconsistent, then the frametime will be too. but there are exceptions to this, I remember in FFXV, even with a consistent framerate, the frametime was inconsistent, it probably has to do with the game engine. in these cases it's good to use third-party software (like RTSS) and lock the game's framerate at an X value. RTSS is very good, most framerate limiters in games aren't that effective, and neither is the game's own v-sync.

I recently played Black Ops 3 and natively the game is a horror in terms of performance, frametime is inconsistent and the game's v-sync was more of a hindrance than a help. RTSS + NVCP v-sync was the perfect solution.
 
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