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[Blackace]

Saying that only Jpn developers whore franchises is wrong. Both sides have been equally creative IMO.

where did I say only???

but saying that japanese devs are more creative is ok..... which is what the first post states...read the whole thread next time... ok... mission failed... catchy

 

[Doom_Bringer]

where did I say only???

but saying that japanese devs are more creative is ok..... which is what the first post states...read the whole thread next time... ok... mission failed... catchy

You only listed Japanese games in that post. I don't give a shit about who is creative or not, I enjoy good games and thats all.

 

[Blackace]

You only listen Japanese games in that post. I don't give a shit about who is creative or not, I enjoy good games and thats all.

well I like good games too... and Japanese games... I better I live here...

 

[callous]

I think the best way to sum up my feelings on this is ...

Suikoden: A wheel of fortune on the floor in the middle of a house that you have to traverse.
Jumping Flash
FFVII (I think): An enemy that is a little house complete with a drying fish dangling from the roof (Baba Yaga's Hut?)
Katamari Damacy
MGS3: Little toy frogs or something you have to find to unlock stuff. Alligator hat.
NiGHTS

And so on. These are the kind of things in Japanese games that keep surprising me and make me smile. I never get surprised in that offbeat way in a Western game, not these days. It used to be a different sorty altogether: Wizball, Gribbly's Day Out, Pyjamarama, Day of The Tentacle and so many other Western games in the 8/16 bit era had quirkiness and surprising design choices a-plenty.

I don't expect people to have the same taste as me, but these are the things I often look for in games, and anno 2005 that means I pretty much have to look to Japan.

Doesn't mean I don't enjoy GTA, R&C and MoH, because I really do.

 

[Boogie]

Well it's just a constatation (spell?) from him, just a statement. He states his opinion first without saying anything more, just to start the discussion. I can't believe how some people can't see through writings.
And when i answered, i didn't felt like arguing anything, i just wanted to tell Andrew i aggree with what he said (wich mean i prolly have similar tastes for the matter here).



.

Ah, so you came into this thread with the intention of not responding to what anyone else posts, and just stating your own opinion without being willing to back it up to people who disagree with you?

What was that you said about wanting to have an intelligent discussion?

Aww, forget it, I forgot I was in the Gaming Forum. Time to get back to the OT

 

[kevm3]

Japanese Rpgs may have more variation than the D&D Western rpgs, but if you've played a good western rpg on pc (fallout, planescape torment, baldur's gate, etc.), you'll be wondering why you ever thought as highly of these japanese console rpgs as you did.

 

[Flo_Evans]

I play very good and deep western games on my PC/PS2.
I also play very good and deep eastern games on my PS2/ Cube.

I couldn't be happier.

IAWTP

as for japanese devs being more creative, they put out just as many liscensed and series games as western devs. Just because thier inspiration is more unfamilar then the DD & LOTR stuff, doesnt make it any more original.

and for the record I prefer samurai games to conan the barbarion shit.

 

[Ranger X]

"not responding to what anyone else posts"
"stating your own opinion without being willing to back it up to people who disagree with you"

Exactly what i try to do most of the time. It's useless to answer to many posters especially trolling posters. Also, even if i debate with people my opinions prolly won't change and probably yours too. Ironically i do answer them here but it's just because i felt this thread went a bit too far in trolling and had to express that i don't agree with that behavior. Jokes are nice but taken too far they aren't. Let's say that if was the thread starter i would be pissed off.
Now let's kill that subject will ya? The second page is not too bad right now so it's no use to dirty it.

 

[Azih]

Exactly what i try to do most of the time. It's useless to answer to many posters especially trolling posters. Also, even if i debate with people my opinions prolly won't change and probably yours too. Ironically i do answer them here but it's just because i felt this thread went a bit too far in trolling and had to express that i don't agree with that behavior.

Frankly you think anybody who's disagreeing with the intial post is trolling. And your statements here have pretty much confirmed that if it's anybody who isn't interested in a discussion. It's YOU. Really if what you're looking for is a forum where some person starts a thread and everybody else posts just to agree then there are plenty of single format or single genre forums that would serve your needs better than GAF.

 

[callous]

Japanese Rpgs may have more variation than the D&D Western rpgs, but if you've played a good western rpg on pc (fallout, planescape torment, baldur's gate, etc.), you'll be wondering why you ever thought as highly of these japanese console rpgs as you did.

I have played Baldur's Gate, Ice wind Dale and many other Western RPGs. None of them were able to hold my interest to the end, and they certainly did not change my opinion on JRPGs. Quite the opposite. Sorry to disappoint.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

I find japanese and western games to be on equal footing atleast when it comes to gameplay and creativity.

 

[Speevy]

All preferences aside, Western PC RPG's do tend to have more options than console RPG's, from any country.

 

[shuri]

On japanese message boards, i'm sure that there's always bozos posting threads like "why is it hard for our developpers to be creative like western developpers?!" followed with a bunch of guys praising dungeon and dragon type art.

 

[sprsk]

All preferences aside, Western PC RPG's do tend to have more options than console RPG's, from any country.

yeah like that jade empire.

edit: im pretty sure there isnt shuri.

but like i said, this is TOTALLY a publisher thing. Do you think designers want to work on the same game series for 5 years working on the schedules they have?

 

[Speevy]

yeah like that jade empire.

Jade Empire isn't a PC game, and Bioware fanatics have already pointed out that it pales in terms of options to that company's past efforts.

 

[Borys]

All preferences aside, Western PC RPG's do tend to have more options than console RPG's, from any country.

You make only great points in this thread Speevy, this one is true as well.

Might and Magic, Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Wasteland, Wiazrdry, Wizards & Warriors, Gothic, Arena, Daggerfall etc.

All great games and all different from jRPGs (which I *adore* as well).

 

[Porridge]

First of all, I used to have this passion for western developed more than a japanese developed title(save for
SEGA,Capcom and Namco arcade games), however thats changing. My problem -- everytime I look at some western developed title, its always knocking-off some published work whether it be storyline, artwork or etc. I mean, how many NA RPG's are going to pull thier art design striaght from D&D or LOTR or some FPS pulling thier story/plotline,character design from the best sci-fi books,comic or even movie. What worst, the storyline a majority of the time is uninspired. I'am already quite shocked Bungie ripped-off Ghost In The Shell in every sense with ONI(note how Konoko = Major Kusanagi for exsample).

Now I look at Japanese developed titles particullary RPG's, I see some very creative approaches to art design and story. One the subject of art design, while I might not be a Sqaure-Enix fan, one thing I have to admit that I give them credit for the art design in some of their games, particullary Code Age Commanders which show alot of creative effort when approached to art. Same can be said about other titles like Shining Force NEO,Okami, Wanda, Genji and just to name a few. Even on the subject of story/plotlines in Japanese developed titles, they actually makes sense and show alot of original creativity like that of MGS and some of the RPG's. Whats interesting, while NA developers seem to rely on some guy out of hollywood to write a epic plot, Japanese developers seem to do it better in-house, and without having to turn to somebody from hollywood all the time.

In the end though, it sad that when it comes to actually designing a game in every sense, a majority of western developers seem to be lagging behind their Japanese counter-parts and I don't see any change.

You're a Japanophile and there's nothing wrong with that, but there's no way you can knock Western developers (the people who invented the video game decades ago) when they're producing Halos, Half-Lifes, WOWs, Metroid Primes, GTAs, Oddworlds, Prince of Persias, etc. I mean, come on.

I also have to address your Metal Gear Solid comment, since I watched "Escape from New York" the umpteenth time today. Kojima lifts much from that classic movie:

The character Snake (Snake Plissken in the movie). The premise (going it alone to save something important to the government), the Colonel figure (called "Hauk" in EFNY) where they contact each other via radio (codec in MGS). Actually, First Blood (Rambo) is where the look of Col Campbell comes from. Let's not even go near "Snatcher"...

 

[Boogie]

Exactly what i try to do most of the time. It's useless to answer to many posters especially trolling posters. Also, even if i debate with people my opinions prolly won't change and probably yours too. Ironically i do answer them here but it's just because i felt this thread went a bit too far in trolling and had to express that i don't agree with that behavior. Jokes are nice but taken too far they aren't. Let's say that if was the thread starter i would be pissed off.
Now let's kill that subject will ya? The second page is not too bad right now so it's no use to dirty it.

Yeah, Azih already covered this. You don't want a discussion. Posting a thread, and then having people simply post their opinion without any regard to what other people say, is not a discussion.

It's like the thread topics of "Post your favourite x type of game here", where you just get four pages of people posting a list of games. That's not a discussion.

A discussion is an interactive phenomenon, with people actually reacting and responding to what other people have to say.

 

[djtiesto]

I think my favorite Western games lately aren't even from America... Canada and Europe are where it's at. Canada - Bioware, Ubi Montreal (TSOT was classic even if they beat that franchise into the ground), Europe - Ubi France, SCEE (Wipeout), those German PC games that nobody really knows about... Maybe in those countries it's less about profit and more about making a good game for game's sake.

And yeah both sides have been whoring equally. But still I haven't seen anything as creative from Western developers like Katamari or Rez (correct me if I'm wrong). The third GTA in 3 years, god knows how many Jak, Ratchet and Clank, Sly Coopers, etc come out. And movie frnachises both suck both sides of the ocean

Most of the best Western developers seem to use all the design philosophy that was perfected by Japan in the Famicom era, anyways.

 

[TheDiave]

Okay, clicking on this thread and reading the first post was 30 seconds of my life I will never get back.

 

[_Angelus_]

Games like Armed and Dangerous,Enclave,Gran Theft Auto,Serious Sam,Halo,Prince of Persia Sands of Time,Crimson Skies,God of War,Project Gotham Racing 2,these are why I prefer games outside of Japan. Japanese games are cool,but abit overated,its good to see other areas of the globe get their due nowdays.

 

[nitewulf]

grim.
fandango.

 

[Ironclad]

grim.
fandango.

Any of Schafer's games really. No matter what setting they're in, he still manages to bring something creative and new to it.

 

[Amir0x]

seriously this thread is funny.

 

[Gart]

I don't what it takes to make a game and I don't know how much time each developer puts into their game vs the other, so I won't get into that.

I'd say I have a stonger preference towards japanese games when it comes to "art" and "creativeness." Even though I've always liked what both sides had to offer in terms of gameplay and game mechanics, I found it rare to get that certain fix in western developed games that I get from Japenese ones.

I've come to appreciate western games in a different way, though. Aspects of the stories, the gameplay, the open ended games and freedom of certain western games that you don't find a lot in Japenese ones. I think PC games are great and it's sad that it seems to be dying. Where else can you try mods and total conversions and have the flexibility of something like bringing down a console with endless commands to play around with?

It's funny how when some people put down western games for lack of whatever, they often bring up first person shooters. And I agree that theres a ton of them and they're probably just talking about just that, but I think the good FPS is an aspect of what makes western games great!

Take the video I posted of Tribes2(that noone cared for =P It's pretty old so I guess everyone has seen it or just doesn't care for Tribes2).

http://forums.gaming-age.com/showthread.php?t=44089&highlight=Tribes

The subtleties in movement and those instances in gameplay stemmed from the freedom, depth of the gameplay and the creativeness of the player themselves has a certain aesthetics value to me, as does the stuff I talked about above. And a lot of western develops are strong in that regard.

 

[jadehorizon1]

come on ... we all know EA owns all that is North America ... creativity = squashed

 

[StoOgE]

I think everyone is missing the most important part of this thread:

Go buy Psychonauts. Like 10 copies. Hand them out to friends, become popular all that.... Seriously though, I dont want to hear people bitch about Western games not being original, or all games being rehashed sequals while all of yall continue to buy Splinter Cell 20 and companies like Double Fine that are doing everything you say needs to be done to make great games go under.

 

[Andrew2]

I think everybody missing the point of this thread in a huge way. Heres something to think about, but how many NA RPG's can you find where one of the entities isn't an Orc, Elf, Troll or something taken from a Toliken or D&D book? I mean, just about 98% of the NA RPG's I've played have those things recurring. I look a Japanese RPG's however, and I can't find any recurring themes or creatures.

I'm also glad someone brought up Fallout, because RPG's like Fallout and Deus Ex is a good exsample of the tiny amount of originality in that exist in NA games because they don't use the same recurring elements. This also go this the thread where someone ask on this forum why are NA RPG's always carrying a medieval theme rather than modern or apocolyptic-theme.

BTW, I have to give a game like Champions of Norrath alot of credit. Despite being molded in the traditional LOTR style, it breaks the mold in some creative ways. From the type of hairstyles your given for your character and costumes, its amazing to see a game of its style add a modern touch to it. I mean, how many LOTR-style RPG can you find featuring things taken from modern fashion/dress styles? If anything, I would say I love the creative freedom SOE allowed Snowblind to do this.

 

[PC Gaijin]

Heres something to think about, but how many NA RPG's can you find where one of the entities isn't an Orc, Elf, Troll or something taken from a Toliken or D&D book? I mean, just about 98% of the NA RPG's I've played have those things recurring. I look a Japanese RPG's however, and I can't find any recurring themes or creatures.

:lol Surely this is a joke character. If not, you should seriously go out and play more RPGs (both Western and Japanese) before making sweeping (and stupid) generalizations like these.

 

[Andrew2]

:lol Surely this is a joke character. If not, you should seriously go out and play more RPGs (both Western and Japanese) before making sweeping (and stupid) generalizations like these.

Trust me, I've played enough of both to notice whats recurring from whats not. I'm not talking about gameplay,cause all gameplay knock off each other. I'm talking about the creative approaches. Creativity doesn't start of end at gameplay.

 

[siege]

I look a Japanese RPG's however, and I can't find any recurring themes or creatures.

:lol

 

[Ranger X]

Yeah, Azih already covered this. You don't want a discussion. Posting a thread, and then having people simply post their opinion without any regard to what other people say, is not a discussion.

It's like the thread topics of "Post your favourite x type of game here", where you just get four pages of people posting a list of games. That's not a discussion.

A discussion is an interactive phenomenon, with people actually reacting and responding to what other people have to say.

You guys get it completely wrong. I never said we shouldn't have a discussion lol
I'll put it EXTREMELY simple so you can understand. Here's what i think:

A) no discussion or all replies in favor of the thread starter = boring and not what i like
B) most answer to a thread aren't serious and just troll = boring and not what i like

It means i told you that i think this thread was too much on the trolling side that's all. I don't like extremes - none if them is good. Trolling too much is boring just as having no discussion at all.

And to give more details about other things i also said - i don't have an urge for people to agree all of what i say. That's what 'cause many useless flame wars here. People should assume what they say and do and not care as much as they seem to do for others in that matter i guess.
And yeah i like to answer people even if it would be just to annoy them. (though it's not what i'm doing right now, just preparing in case you go there).

 

[RaidenZR]

i think it's the approach:

japanese developers seem to think 'what do i want to do to make this game better?', whereas western devs think 'what can i do to make this game better?'

the difference is the japanese scope is so much bigger (i.e. everything), they seem to think whatever i want to do, i can. western devs, on the other hand, have a more limited approach, based on things that have already happened in videogames, then they tweak it.

generally.

That is backwards.

 

[Boogie]

You guys get it completely wrong. I never said we shouldn't have a discussion lol
I'll put it EXTREMELY simple so you can understand. Here's what i think:

A) no discussion or all replies in favor of the thread starter = boring and not what i like
B) most answer to a thread aren't serious and just troll = boring and not what i like

It means i told you that i think this thread was too much on the trolling side that's all. I don't like extremes - none if them is good. Trolling too much is boring just as having no discussion at all.

And to give more details about other things i also said - i don't have an urge for people to agree all of what i say. That's what 'cause many useless flame wars here. People should assume what they say and do and not care as much as they seem to do for others in that matter i guess.
And yeah i like to answer people even if it would be just to annoy them. (though it's not what i'm doing right now, just preparing in case you go there).

Umm, if anything, Andrew is the one more guilty of trolling than anyone who's responding to him, but whatever.

 

[snapty00]

I look a Japanese RPG's however, and I can't find any recurring themes or creatures.

Haha.

 

[Speevy]

:lol :lol :lol

 

[duckroll]

WHY IS IT HARD FOR ANDREW2 TO BE INTELLIGENT LIKE OTHER POSTERS?

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

Well, this is his opinion and I hear were he is coming from...

I am the exact opposite from Andrew2...

I used to think that the majority of western game were just not up to Japanese standards...

Although the best Japanse developers are the very best in the industry (IMO) the rise of the western developer in with this gen of gaming (Dreamcast, PS2, GCN, Xbox) has been nothing more than remarkable...

With this gen, a large number of western (north america and Europe) developers finnally "get it" and is the main reason the gaming industry has grown so much...to the point where western developers are now the dominant force in gaming (not just with sales, but game quality too)....

IAWTP

 

[C- Warrior]

God of War wasn't creative, all that game did was take idea's from a bunch of popular eastern games.

Exactly.

Even David Jaffe went on saying that Devil May Cry, Onimusha and Ico were BIG inspirations for God of War. DMC being the most. I believe he even actually said, by quote "If it weren't for Devil May Cry, God of War would have been similar to something like Medievil, where combat takes a back seat to the game at hand." And I'm sure a lot of his staff was influenced by other games such as Ninja Gaiden, Street Fighter, and Bujingai.

Or something to that effect.

God of War is a great game, (save the button mashing combat mechanics) and it IS a great representation on what western developers can do, but god--the game gets way to much credit for being a mindless, 7 hour hack n slash.

 

[Go Go Ackman!]

Oh my god, what a bunch of crybabies

 

[Slayven]

I am just happy we can enjoy the fruits of two different schools of game making

 

[Ash Housewares]

Okay, clicking on this thread and reading the first post was 30 seconds of my life I will never get back.

thats why you should ignore it and just respond to the title

western games need more effeminate amnesiacs

 

[Blackace]

Trust me, I've played enough of both to notice whats recurring from whats not. I'm not talking about gameplay,cause all gameplay knock off each other. I'm talking about the creative approaches. Creativity doesn't start of end at gameplay.

I would like to say that this is BS... if you like Japanese RPGs then that's great, but what was the last open ended Japanese RPG you have played??

 

[HokieJoe]

I’m not really an RPG fan, but I would like to make a couple of points. Part of what Andrew is experiencing, IMO, is perceptual salience. That is, he is overestimating the originality of Japanese games, and it seems RPG's specifically, because Japanese culture is probably foreign to him. What is foreign is more likely to seem original. What is familiar has a higher threshold for originality.

Japanese games are the result of Japanese culture. Likewise, Western games are the result of Western culture. Hey, maybe he's just bored with Western culture. That's fine, but it doesn't mean that Japanese games have a monopoly on originality. It just means that he isn't familiar with their culture enough to judge the originality of their games.

OK, I’m done with my exercise in circular logic for the day.

 

[Vandiger]

I’m not really an RPG fan, but I would like to make a couple of points. Part of what Andrew is experiencing, IMO, is perceptual salience. That is, he is overestimating the originality of Japanese games, and it seems RPG's specifically, because Japanese culture is probably foreign to him. What is foreign is more likely to seem original. What is familiar has a higher threshold for originality.

Japanese games are the result of Japanese culture. Likewise, Western games are the result of Western culture. Hey, maybe he's just bored with Western culture. That's fine, but it doesn't mean that Japanese games have a monopoly on originality. It just means that he isn't familiar with their culture enough to judge the originality of their games.

OK, I’m done with my exercise in circular logic for the day.

Excellent, I hate acronyms but IAWTP.

 

[FightyF]

I’m not really an RPG fan, but I would like to make a couple of points. Part of what Andrew is experiencing, IMO, is perceptual salience. That is, he is overestimating the originality of Japanese games, and it seems RPG's specifically, because Japanese culture is probably foreign to him. What is foreign is more likely to seem original. What is familiar has a higher threshold for originality.

Japanese games are the result of Japanese culture. Likewise, Western games are the result of Western culture. Hey, maybe he's just bored with Western culture. That's fine, but it doesn't mean that Japanese games have a monopoly on originality. It just means that he isn't familiar with their culture enough to judge the originality of their games.

OK, I’m done with my exercise in circular logic for the day.

BAYM!

We should all PM Andrew with this message

 

[_Angelus_]

I’m not really an RPG fan, but I would like to make a couple of points. Part of what Andrew is experiencing, IMO, is perceptual salience. That is, he is overestimating the originality of Japanese games, and it seems RPG's specifically, because Japanese culture is probably foreign to him. What is foreign is more likely to seem original. What is familiar has a higher threshold for originality.

Japanese games are the result of Japanese culture. Likewise, Western games are the result of Western culture. Hey, maybe he's just bored with Western culture. That's fine, but it doesn't mean that Japanese games have a monopoly on originality. It just means that he isn't familiar with their culture enough to judge the originality of their games.

OK, I’m done with my exercise in circular logic for the day.

This is a damn good point. There are times when I for example become much more excited over a Japanese fighter than I ever would a Western based one. Part of it is because of the Virtua Fighter Asian themes in the games,its really fascinationg stuff. Whereas I'm rather bunt out on the cheese infested Mortal Kombats games and their knockoffs that have been born. Don't get me wrong,I like Mortal Kombat for its gore and feel as well,but its as the author above noted-because some game genres in Japan feel less ho humish,or less run of the mill,such as Virtua Fighter and Tekken, than Western based fighters. They have more attraction behind them,like there more fresher to enjoy.

 

[Dragmire]

You can't sit down and call everything equal. Tim Schafer's work in terms of western games is FAR from common, but hardly has the originality of something like Katamari. And of course Katamari is also a bit uncommon. For the record, I don't agree with the original post or most of the responses.

You can't enter this thread and seriously compare Katamari Damacy to GTA. You're comparing 'unique' to 'mainstream' (as well as game/new series to old series). There are two issues at work here: MARKET and SPECIFIC developers. For the sake of argument, I'm going to look for as little outside influence as possible to guage creativity.

Compare Katamari to an original American game like Psychonauts. By doing that, you can see that both western and eastern devs can output some originality. But I would gently dispute that Schafer's work is less original when you look at American animation. Psychonauts can be easily compared to movies and various 2D and 3D animation like Nightmare Before Christmas and Beetlejuice (both movie and cartoon). Rare for gaming, yes, but not 'out of nowhere' originality. Katamari is far less explainable.

So we see that the comparison between those is a little dubious. Is there, then, a more fair comparison? Beyond Good and Evil, perhaps? I see a lot of animation influence there also. Not a lot of purely creative Western games. Well, let's look at other Japanese games. Nintendo is a specific developer with games that are awash with uniqueness, such as Wario Ware, Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Nintendogs, Doshin, Cubivore, etc. And they're from Japan, but obviously not the norm. Capcom has some unique stuff like Killer 7 and Devil May Cry, also. Then there's Space Channel 5, Seaman, Jet Set Radio, Ico, Eye Toy, etc. Perhaps Sim City and the Sims are decent comparisons to those Japanese games.

That said, western games are creative on a less pure level (like Schafer's work and BG&E). So yes, while all those Japanese games are very original with little detectable influence, and it's difficult to find comparable American software, there are other issues at work. The 'safe' standards in Japan's market are simply different... more open to completely unique games, while that which is safe in America often deals with a license, movie-reminiscent themes, sports, urban themes, etc. But general creativity can be found elsewhere in western games.

Plus, the standouts like Nintendo are opposite to the bulk of developers in Japan (if not the rest of the world) which produce little original content. For example, I almost put Viewtiful Joe and Harvest Moon on here, but there are some obvious influences (comic books, and anime/Japanese RPG's). I mean there's originality in those games, but it's easier to compare originality using utmost uniqueness. And then you have lots of twenty year old franchises (Mega Man, Pac Man, Castlevania...), anime licenses, clones, sports games, dating sims, etc.

My conclusion is that both markets are abound with unoriginality, Japan has more which is purely creative, but the western markets have a lot which is creative on a very general level. Also, the western markets are simply different and allow for less of that pure creativity.

 

[Kabuki Waq]

GTA type games were not mainstream till GTA! just because i game sells more copies and spawns copy cats does not make it any less creative on ambitious.

 

[Speevy]

That was a long post to say something which can be refuted with personal taste. The fact that Katamari is so unique makes it the exception, not the rule. And why are you picking on Tim Schafer? He's done nothing but stand atop a now extinct genre with his own sense of style and humor. He's not a giant company like Namco, or even LucasArts where he started.