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Why Its So Hard for a Woman to Become President of the United States
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NurseRedHeart
Member
Old fashioned cultural and tradional norms held women from important positions of leadership and thankfully those outdated rules are fading away fast.
That said, like many people are saying, being a women was one of the least of Hillary's problems that caused her to lose
That said, like many people are saying, being a women was one of the least of Hillary's problems that caused her to lose
onadesertedisland
Member
That sucks for her, but as a nation, I'd prefer if we try not to push forward through controversy if it means risking everything.
Manmademan
Member
were you paying attention to kerry in 04? because the exact same situation played out with a white male candidate no one actually liked, that was successfully "swiftboated" into being painted as someone faking his military injuries and history, and took a MASSIVE L against one of the worst republican presidents of all time.
Republican turnout is consistent. it was the same for bush, mccain, and romney. no extra sexists or racists turned out to the polls.
the issue is decline in democratic turnout, NOT sexists showing up to keep clinton from office. you want to claim sexism, you have to explain why it only exists on the democratic side of the aisle. you have to explain why ten million of the democrats from 08 stayed home, and 6 million of the democrats from '12 stayed home. Republicans don't seem to care- they'll pull the R lever at the same rate no matter who is running.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
I dont think we should be discussing who has it worst Black men or women as they are different kind of discrimations.
Black men have to worry about getting shot by police, White women has to worry about getting raped. Black men are seen as criminals and animals while white women are seen as objects. Both are discrimated in the workplace. If we want to talk about who has it the worst well that would be Black Women.
Black men have to worry about getting shot by police, White women has to worry about getting raped. Black men are seen as criminals and animals while white women are seen as objects. Both are discrimated in the workplace. If we want to talk about who has it the worst well that would be Black Women.
She didn't lose because she was a woman.
She lost due to:
If there were a few that based it on gender, I don't think they held a candle to those who opposed her for reasons above.
She lost due to:
- Ongoing email scandal distrust
- Her being directly involved with Obama politics
- Remnants of Whitewater mistrust in older voters
- Political experience and public wanting a paradigm shift
- Lack of debate aggression compare to Trump
- Stricter voting registration affecting minorities
- A majority of her support being facebook savvy yet too lethargic to vote
- Berners jumping Dem to go green or Lib
- Minorities disenchanted with her (her only care about them was the vote)
If there were a few that based it on gender, I don't think they held a candle to those who opposed her for reasons above.
You are assuming that being a democrat and being sexist are mutually exclusive. The thing about sexism is it's pervasive. Even people who are otherwise liberal can have sexist views.
Being a charisma black hole certainly didn't help her...
You can get away with a lot of things when you do have presence and charisma, which is something that eluded Clinton, Kerry and Gore (and GOP favorite Jeb Bush who received hilariously low level of support).
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Our President-Elect has committed multiple sexual assaults, is in lawsuits for fraud scandals, single-handily destroyed a football league and has the worst overall policies ever. But Clinton has emails, sucks for her can't pick a candidate that was too controversial.
Yeah, that's a popular thing that people say about her, but I've always liked her and found her charismatic, so I don't know what to tell you.
If a country as sexist as Panama elected a female president and we almost had a second one, if it wasn't because she betrayed somebody, killing any chance for her to get the presidential seat, then a country like United States can get a female president.
While being a woman is one of the reasons some people voted for Trump, it wasn't the main reason she lost the elections.
That's true too. It doesn't help that she wore those Korean dictator dresses. Not to be funny, but they made her appear cold and bland instead of neutral and neither too feminine or masculine (which is what I think they were trying to go for and failed).
Manmademan
Member
if it were pervasive, you would see it reflected at the same rate for democrats and republicans.
you would see an increase of people coming out to vote against clinton, or more moderates voting republican.
neither of these things happened. Republican turnout was functionally identical. no extra moderates, no extra conservatives.
There was a MASSIVE decline in democratic turnout, and no its not plausible that ten million democrats didn't show up because they were all sexists. It's the SAME amount that turned out for Kerry. The sexism argument is stupid, and it's dangerous thinking.
The same people who stayed home for clinton ALSO stayed home for kerry, and 9 million MORE of them stayed home for gore.
It's about the candidate, and the campaign. not gender.
Republicans voted for their Republican candidate. There's no shocker there and no reason to expect more of a turnout from them. Strangely though, Clinton lost a ton of voters who liked her policies when they were Obama's.
shinra-bansho
Member
It was a compounding reason.
You can't disentangle that she's a woman from many of the other reasons that also factor into her loss. People often don't realise that sexism isn't all overt sexism and misogyny.
There was a five point shift from 2012 in men towards Trump in exits. With only a single point movement away with women.
Also people should really stop citing incomplete vote totals.
You can't disentangle that she's a woman from many of the other reasons that also factor into her loss. People often don't realise that sexism isn't all overt sexism and misogyny.
There was a five point shift from 2012 in men towards Trump in exits. With only a single point movement away with women.
Also people should really stop citing incomplete vote totals.
Manmademan
Member
Voters vote for CANDIDATES. not policies.
Obama's policies were identical to kerry's, and identical to gore's. HIS support was astronomically higher than both.
There's a consistent base that support the democratic platform, just as there is a consistent base that supports the republican platform. It's not enough. it's never been enough.
you want to win over those people that vote to save their guns and stop abortion every four years, you're going to have to run a candidate that gives people a reason to turn out other than policy.
Since Carter in the 70s, democrats have run exactly two candidates that hit this bar.
Bill Clinton in 92 and 96, and Obama in 08 and 12.
On the losing end you have Mondale, Dukakis, Gore, Kerry, and Hillary.
do you see the pattern?
Fourth Storm
Member
It also played into her whole style of public speaking. For years, women were seen as "too emotional" to be put in leadership positions. In this election, we had people calling her a robot because of her calm demeanor.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I agree with what the woman on bill maher said that for obama to become the first black president he had to be one of the most perfect candidates of all time in terms of personality/class/temperament/ability to energize/etc... and it will probably take the same type of person to be the first woman president...and that simply is not hillary.
Now as for the reason they need to unfortunately be that good, you all already covered it.
Now as for the reason they need to unfortunately be that good, you all already covered it.
She only even got that opportunity because Mulroney retired after all the backlash he got as a result of his policy choice in his second term, too. Her experience over the years helped her over Charest for Party Leadership. End of the day, the only support she needed was the Progressive Conservatuve caucus, not the nation's.
She never even sat Parliament. The summer break was ongoing since she gained leadership end of June. The irony is, her honesty was her demise in the race against Jean Chrétien. That, and the really bad attack ads about his Bell's Palsy (yikes).
We're literally as bad. 😭
Even if they like some of her policies, if they don't like her they won't vote for her. In fact, a large proportion of the democratic base actually hate her.
She voted for the Iraq War and the Patriot Act. She and the DNC colluded and cheated in the primary against Bernie. She is beholden to corporate interests and can't even be bothered to visit states that she lost in the primaries.
Why is it surprising that Democratic voter turnout was lower as a result?
FriedConsole
Banned
This. I wish I could believe in such simple narratives.
People said it was impossible for an African-American president.
I definitely see a pattern in politics.
You can't tell me that sex wasn't a significant reason people weren't inspired by her or liked her. It's abundantly apparent that most people aren't thinking to themselves: "I didn't vote for her, because she's a woman," but sexism did play a role in why people just generally mistrust and dislike her. Trump is also generally disliked and mistrusted, but a not-insignificant portion of people were fine with allowing him to be elected, instead of Clinton. They felt comfortable enough with that prospect, to stay home and sit this one out.
Manmademan
Member
I believe this is true for getting through the democratic primary in 08, due to the massively difficult job of getting past a much better funded hillary clinton in the primaries.
in the general? republicans were so damaged and demoralized that he would have won even if he hadn't been perfect.
Obama in '12 was hardly a perfect candidate. he made mistakes, Obamacare was far from a sure thing, and the economic recovery was weak. Obama was taking hits for all of that and the "perfect" bloom was off of that rose.
He STILL smashed Romney- the strongest candidate the GOP has run since Reagan in 84 by 6 million votes.
Obama won both times because he has a spectacular ability to connect with people. He won because he's OBAMA, not because he's perfect.
If Hillary had the ability to speak to people as Michelle Obama does and has, she wouldn't have lost to Trump. unfortunately Hillary does not, and never did.
Topic of thread: Why It’s So Hard for a Woman to Become President of the United States
Reply- there is no sexism cause Hillary is bad!
Thank you liberal GAF for mansplaining away a portion of why Hillary lost because sexism isn't important to you.
There are threads about the incompetence of the DNC, what strategically Hillary did wrong, the fact population wanted drastic change over status quo politicians. All of those are right. Go post in those.
But sexism. Nah, that doesn't exist. You know because American, correction, the world has been so kind women through all of history. Women are only equal on paper, just like blacks. Culture, not so much.
Reply- there is no sexism cause Hillary is bad!
Thank you liberal GAF for mansplaining away a portion of why Hillary lost because sexism isn't important to you.
There are threads about the incompetence of the DNC, what strategically Hillary did wrong, the fact population wanted drastic change over status quo politicians. All of those are right. Go post in those.
But sexism. Nah, that doesn't exist. You know because American, correction, the world has been so kind women through all of history. Women are only equal on paper, just like blacks. Culture, not so much.
FriedConsole
Banned
Hillary did a good job of not talking about policy and ran on "I am not Trump". It was her lack of policy that led to unenthusiastic voters not showing up.
Manmademan
Member
that's exactly what I'm saying. She turned out the same base kerry did, plus or minus a few hundred thousand, with the same policies.
Hillary is mistrusted and disliked because she's repeatedly been tagged doing things as untrustworthy and unlikeable, and lacks the charisma to explain these things away in a plausible manner. Powell complained about her hubris and tendency towards unnecessary secrecy in private, and powell was right.
It doesn't matter how trusted Trump is, because republican identity politics mean they're voting for the platform, not the person. There is NO huge difference in vote between Bush in 04, McCain in 08, Romney in 12, or Trump in 16. The base turns out regardless.
Democrats need to be CONVINCED to show up because the coalition is not as homogenous, and Clinton could not convince them. Her gender isn't why.
no one is saying sexism doesn't exist man. We're saying sexism isn't why hillary lost specifically. and pretending like it was and learning nothing will mean another loss in 2020.
The Artisan
Member
I wish Oprah ran for president.
Just like in the US, we are still waiting to see the first female charismatic candidate at the head of a major party in Canada. There's an article on the NY Times site which describe the situation well imo: "The Problem for Women Is Not Winning, It's Deciding to Run".
It matters how trusted Trump was, when you consider the votes of Democrats and Independents. The people who opted not to vote for Hillary had way more reason to distrust Trump, but his flaws someone paled in comparison. Hillary did as well as Kerry...against a much worse candidate. Against the worst candidate this nation has ever seen.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Obama won in 08 because Bush was really turned out to be that bad of a President anybody could've beat the Republicans. Obama barely won in 12 largely because the same people voted for him the last time and it still turned out to be a lot of people. If it weren't for the recession that destroyed the middle class and Iraq turning out to be a disaster, Obama would've lost. Obama was in the right circumstances of winning as a black man while Hillary was not as a woman.
entremet
Member
She was a huge Obama fan and that was a big deal. But that was back when she had her network TV show. She retired from network TV since then and is not as relevant.
SolidSnakex
Member
Because Trump actually talked to them! Michael Moore was on Bill Maher's show in July and said he thought Trump was going to win. He pointed out that Trump had been to Michigan to speak to the white working class and talk about how he was going to be bringing jobs back there from Mexico, and it resonated with them. And he said that Trump would win through what he called the "Brexit strategy", he felt the middle of England would be Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania. He was right.
Hillary was asked by her husband and others to go speak to the white working class worker. She didn't want to because she believed that going to the college-educated suburban voter was a better way to attack Trump. In other words, rather going and talking to people that are hurting financially, she went to try to scare people from voting for Trump. How is any of that about her gender?
That isn't about her gender. But that also isn't the only factor at play here. The vast majority of people cite their general mistrust and dislike of her, as the reason they voted against her or opted not to vote at all. They aren't citing the fact she didn't speak to their demographic.
Manmademan
Member
you're my new favorite person.
Agree with all of that. Clinton didn't have the ability or desire to reach out to everyone she needed to. That's not a gender issue, that's a clinton issue. She had NEVER been to wisconsin, at all.
That's a massive fuckup in the campaign, and you could see this same strategy in her 08 primary election- park yourself in swing states and high turnout blue areas, don't worry about anywhere else.
Obama crushed her by using data and ground game to hit low population caucus states and areas democrats don't usually bother to compete.
Mediking
Member
Wrong. I know various people who hinted that they believe a woman shouldn't be in control of America.
Manmademan
Member
which is the point. the people who hold those views are conservatives who vote republican regardless.
Someone who thinks a woman's role isn't leadership isn't showing up to vote for obama two years in a row. racist/sexist/homophobic thought and ideals tend to cluster together.
My family is currently female-centric and not once did they ever espouse this connection, we can get anecdotal on both sides, but that wont improve progress. Hillary was a shit candidate, how do we move on?
You have no reason to believe this to be true. You are literally just assuming that Democrats can't be sexist. If this were true, we'd have had a woman president by now. And, strangely, the fact that a black man was elected, speaks nothing about the existence of sexism. Historically, black men have obtained political rights well in advance of women. If this goes the way of the vote, it will be another 50 years before a woman is President.
Most of these people possibly voting republican, so it doesn't really matter. Not only that, but it seems that Clinton will win the popular vote by over a million vote or possibly more. More people voted for her despite the negative that she carried, including the people you know who say that a woman shouldn't be in control.
You should ignore those people, just like Ronda Rousey did with nearly everyone around her said it was unthinkable to think of joining the UFC, let alone becoming a megastar...
KonradLaw
Member
If americans could pick black man with muslim name as president I doubt they had a lot of problem picking a white woman. It's just that Hilary is unlikable, has bad rep, is seen as pure personification of establishment and most of all ran terrible campaign designed around the idea that it was simply impossible for her to loose.
Audioboxer
Member
Eh, Michelle Obama if she wanted to run (I don't blame her for not) would spank Clinton. Everything about the Obama's just oozes of class. Not perfection, but class and a damn good attitude to try and take care of America. Hillary was too much I want to take care of myself, by getting this job.
It's not so much an issue of Clinton being a woman, she just wasn't the right woman. For 2020 the Dems need a much better female candidate. It is time for America to elect a female president, it just sucks the effort for 2016 ended up with Clinton.
Yep.
George Washington
Member
Thelonelykoopa
Member
shhhhh we are in Trumps America ; so revisionist history is A ok now.
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