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Why Women Had Better Sex Under Socialism (NY Times)

S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
[click me]

A comparative sociological study of East and West Germans conducted after reunification in 1990 found that Eastern women had twice as many orgasms as Western women. Researchers marveled at this disparity in reported sexual satisfaction, especially since East German women suffered from the notorious double burden of formal employment and housework. In contrast, postwar West German women had stayed home and enjoyed all the labor-saving devices produced by the roaring capitalist economy. But they had less sex, and less satisfying sex, than women who had to line up for toilet paper.
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Consider Ana Durcheva from Bulgaria, who was 65 when I first met her in 2011. Having lived her first 43 years under Communism, she often complained that the new free market hindered Bulgarians’ ability to develop healthy amorous relationships.

“Sure, some things were bad during that time, but my life was full of romance,” she said. “After my divorce, I had my job and my salary, and I didn’t need a man to support me. I could do as I pleased.”

Ms. Durcheva was a single mother for many years, but she insisted that her life before 1989 was more gratifying than the stressful existence of her daughter, who was born in the late 1970s.

“All she does is work and work,” Ms. Durcheva told me in 2013, “and when she comes home at night she is too tired to be with her husband. But it doesn’t matter, because he is tired, too. They sit together in front of the television like zombies. When I was her age, we had much more fun.”
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Last year in Jena, a university town in the former East Germany, I spoke with a recently married 30-something named Daniela Gruber. Her own mother — born and raised under the Communist system — was putting pressure on Ms. Gruber to have a baby.

“She doesn’t understand how much harder it is now — it was so easy for women before the Wall fell,” she told me, referring to the dismantling of the Berlin Wall in 1989. “They had kindergartens and crèches, and they could take maternity leave and have their jobs held for them. I work contract to contract, and don’t have time to get pregnant.”

This generational divide between daughters and mothers who reached adulthood on either side of 1989 supports the idea that women had more fulfilling lives during the Communist era. And they owed this quality of life, in part, to the fact that these regimes saw women’s emancipation as central to advanced “scientific socialist” societies, as they saw themselves.
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"As early as 1952, Czechoslovak sexologists started doing research on the female orgasm, and in 1961 they held a conference solely devoted to the topic,” Katerina Liskova, a professor at Masaryk University in the Czech Republic, told me. “They focused on the importance of the equality between men and women as a core component of female pleasure. Some even argued that men need to share housework and child rearing, otherwise there would be no good sex."

Agnieszka Koscianska, an associate professor of anthropology at the University of Warsaw, told me that pre-1989 Polish sexologists “didn’t limit sex to bodily experiences and stressed the importance of social and cultural contexts for sexual pleasure.” It was state socialism’s answer to work-life balance: “Even the best stimulation, they argued, will not help to achieve pleasure if a woman is stressed or overworked, worried about her future and financial stability.”
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Although gender wage disparities and labor segregation persisted, and although the Communists never fully reformed domestic patriarchy, Communist women enjoyed a degree of self-sufficiency that few Western women could have imagined. Eastern bloc women did not need to marry, or have sex, for money. The socialist state met their basic needs and countries such as Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and East Germany committed extra resources to support single mothers, divorcées and widows.
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Ms. Durcheva’s adult daughter and the younger Ms. Gruber now struggle to resolve the work-life problems that Communist governments had once solved for their mothers.

“The Republic gave me my freedom,” Ms. Durcheva once told me, referring to the People’s Republic of Bulgaria. “Democracy took some of that freedom away.”
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K

Keri

Member
Women will be happier and less stressed in a society that protects maternity leave, subsidizes day care and encourages an equal division of household labor, for sure. Most of the working mothers I know (myself included) are constantly running ourselves ragged, trying to keep up with all expectations. It's not surprising that this generally interferes with the quality of sex.
 
N

NESpowerhouse

Perhaps he's wondering why someone would shoot a man before throwing him out of a plane.
Were dildos restricted under a controlled market or something?
 
M

monchi-kun

Member
Keri said:
Women will be happier and less stressed in a society that protects maternity leave, subsidizes day care and encourages an equal division of household labor, for sure. Most of the working mothers I know (myself included) are constantly running ourselves ragged, trying to keep up with all expectations. It's not surprising that this generally interferes with the quality of sex.
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Nailed it.
 
F

FZZ

Banned
Keri said:
Women will be happier and less stressed in a society that protects maternity leave, subsidizes day care and encourages an equal division of household labor, for sure. Most of the working mothers I know (myself included) are constantly running ourselves ragged, trying to keep up with all expectations. It's not surprising that this generally interferes with the quality of sex.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head
 
S

SRG01

Member
I often wonder why western society doesn't put as many resources into daycare and formal supports for new mothers. It's better for society and the economy if their needs are met.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
SRG01 said:
I often wonder why western society doesn't put as many resources into daycare and formal supports for new mothers. It's better for society and the economy if their needs are met.
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I think men with power and money prefer the current power dynamic of them being in an advantageous position of having their pick of women. The more constraints put on women, the more disadvantaged she is.
 
T

ThoseDeafMutes

Member
SRG01 said:
I often wonder why western society doesn't put as many resources into daycare and formal supports for new mothers. It's better for society and the economy if their needs are met.
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The availability and quality of such things varies between countries, as with all social services and the various types of social welfare. As far as the communist states of Europe went they, too, varied country to country in quality of life metrics. East Germany was prosperous by the standards of the Eastern Bloc. But of course looking at one metric (e.g. amount of Maternity leave) can give a skewed picture of overall living standards. "Women had it better under Socialism* ** ^ #"
 
A

Alej

Banned
As a father-at-home, i do everything for my family (a 2.5 yrs old boy and a 0.5 yr old girl). Everything you have to do at home and thinking about everything is done by me, 99% alone. And yes, it's not easy. I don't know how those women can work and do the housework on top of that alone.

My wife works as an aide-soignante here on France, it's like a lower nurse. I don't know if his job exist in USA, actually. It's paid 1450€ a month, 17000 a year.

So, what i want to say: my wife wants to have my everyday life and, i don't want her. Her work equals to suffering. Everyone should be rewarded for his task, and money isn't the reward we should have. Ask the question yourselves, what money brings to you really? Security? Food? A bed? Stuff? Basic needs and a little materialist bonus over that? And what if you lose your job?

I don't think our societies will be regarded as free ones in the future.

Edit: Shit, i forgot the most important. I provide good sex to her as a result and she deeply loves that.
 
A

Absinthe

Member
Keri said:
Women will be happier and less stressed in a society that protects maternity leave, subsidizes day care and encourages an equal division of household labor, for sure. Most of the working mothers I know (myself included) are constantly running ourselves ragged, trying to keep up with all expectations. It's not surprising that this generally interferes with the quality of sex.
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What's strange is they're saying women who didn't have to work had less sex:

"Researchers marveled at this disparity in reported sexual satisfaction, especially since East German women suffered from the notorious double burden of formal employment and housework. In contrast, postwar West German women had stayed home and enjoyed all the labor-saving devices produced by the roaring capitalist economy. But they had less sex, and less satisfying sex, than women who had to line up for toilet paper."
 
S

SPCTRE

Member
Keri said:
Women will be happier and less stressed in a society that protects maternity leave, subsidizes day care and encourages an equal division of household labor, for sure. Most of the working mothers I know (myself included) are constantly running ourselves ragged, trying to keep up with all expectations. It's not surprising that this generally interferes with the quality of sex.
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Yup.
 
P

perfectchaos007

Member
Alternate theory: perhaps life in socialist East Germany was so dreary and depressing with the low quality of life that sex suddenly became BY FAR the best part and only pleasurable experience of everyones day. Whereas in democratic west Germany where people had more privilege such as buying toilet paper and other groceries and entertainment to their hearts content, sex was just a good addition to their otherwise already pleasurable and privileged day.
 
H

H.Protagonist

[-_-]/
Keri said:
Women will be happier and less stressed in a society that protects maternity leave, subsidizes day care and encourages an equal division of household labor, for sure. Most of the working mothers I know (myself included) are constantly running ourselves ragged, trying to keep up with all expectations. It's not surprising that this generally interferes with the quality of sex.
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Aaaaaaaye
 
A

Always-honest

Banned
I can't imagine how horrible sex must be in the USA with people having three jobs.

Lol.. Anyway, i think there is truth in this article.
 
I

Ishan

Junior Member
good lord nyt is while something i trust just providing ammo to the right with this article.... i know quite a few right ppl their charectization of liberals is commi lovers etc etc ... this wont help lol

EDIT: this is tending towards the media equivalent of dude just get laid and stop hating others. lol . not saying I agree or disagree :p
 
H

HarryHengst

Member
perfectchaos007 said:
Alternate theory: perhaps life in socialist East Germany was so dreary and depressing with the low quality of life that sex suddenly became BY FAR the best part and only pleasurable experience of everyones day. Whereas in democratic west Germany where people had more privilege such as buying toilet paper and other groceries and entertainment to their hearts content, sex was just a good addition to their otherwise already pleasurable and privileged day.
Click to expand...

Western society is terrible in promoting a healthy sexual culture because women are told and shown (especially on tv) from an early age that they are either virgins or sluts ánd that both are bad. Combine that with capitalism creating billions of dollars worth of advertisement every year telling women that literally everything about their body is wrong but can be fixed using widget X or Y and every billboard is plastered with photoshopped to hell and back perfect looking women and you get women that get really insecure. And guess what isnt good for a healthy sex life?

And on top of that men in general (yeah yeah not all men) are still not expected to do their part of household chores and raising kids while women are expected to be on the workforce.

Its not about being able to buy shit, its about being able to have a society which has a healthy way of looking at bodies.

Basically:
Kurtofan said:
Another reason to destroy capitalism.
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H

HiResDes

Member
Ishan said:
good lord nyt is while something i trust just providing ammo to the right with this article.... i know quite a few right ppl their charectization of liberals is commi lovers etc etc ... this wont help lol
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Those people have stagnant opinions anyway.
 
B

BladeoftheImmortal

Member
perfectchaos007 said:
Alternate theory: perhaps life in socialist East Germany was so dreary and depressing with the low quality of life that sex suddenly became BY FAR the best part and only pleasurable experience of everyones day. Whereas in democratic west Germany where people had more privilege such as buying toilet paper and other groceries and entertainment to their hearts content, sex was just a good addition to their otherwise already pleasurable and privileged day.
Click to expand...
Only if you were a part of that class.
 
P

perfectchaos007

Member
HarryHengst said:
Western society is terrible in promoting a healthy sexual culture because women are told and shown (especially on tv) from an early age that they are either virgins or sluts ánd that both are bad. Combine that with capitalism creating billions of dollars worth of advertisement every year telling women that literally everything about their body is wrong but can be fixed using widget X or Y and every billboard is plastered with photoshopped to hell and back perfect looking women and you get women that get really insecure. And guess what isnt good for a healthy sex life?

And on top of that men in general (yeah yeah not all men) are still not expected to do their part of household chores and raising kids while women are expected to be on the workforce.

Its not about being able to buy shit, its about being able to have a society which has a healthy way of looking at bodies.

Basically:
Click to expand...

I thought post silent gen mothers chose to join the workforce because they wanted a higher combined family income and thus a higher quality of life. They essentially chose to work instead of making any quality of life sacrifices. If I get married and we have kids, I'll leave it up to my wife on whether or not she wants to work or be stay at home. Assuming my paycheck doesn't increase, we'll either have to make sacrifices ( which i would be fine with ) or she'll choose to work to have her own income to keep her QoL similar to what it was before childbirth.

Ishan said:
good lord nyt is while something i trust just providing ammo to the right with this article.... i know quite a few right ppl their charectization of liberals is commi lovers etc etc ... this wont help lol
Click to expand...

I do feel like liberals fawn and romanticize socialism, because capitalism is far from perfect and socialism in theory solves some of the biggest problems of capitalism so it must be better. But it creates more holes than it fills, as we have seen throughout history in places like East Germany.
 
T

The Fatal Englishman

Member
tsumineko said:
Which do you think is worse for a woman, modern day US society or Eastern Germany's?

Just to make is clear I'm not making a statement either way, just curious.
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Is this a serious question? East Germany, no question. Relative to the rest of the Eastern bloc, East Germany was quite successful however it was still an economic black hole compared to the West. Currency exchange gave way to a barter economy due to government price fixing. Basic goods were in short supply. Skilled workers, including doctors escaped the country left and right leading to a degradation in healthcare services. Childcare, while state-run and financed, was subject to the same indoctrination that was happening throughout the rest of the Eastern bloc.

It wasn't WW2 Germany, but it wasn't a happy existence either.

I would be curious to know how the alleged notion that women had better sex under a communist regime could possibly correlate with the exceedingly low birth rate in Eastern Germany.
 
A

AtomskEater

Member
Ishan said:
good lord nyt is while something i trust just providing ammo to the right with this article.... i know quite a few right ppl their charectization of liberals is commi lovers etc etc ... this wont help lol

EDIT: this is tending towards the media equivalent of dude just get laid and stop hating others. lol . not saying I agree or disagree :p
Click to expand...

I mean they're gonna take it whatever way suits their agenda best. Not like they don't just make up shit or misconstrue articles on a regular basis for ammo, lol.
 
Trickster

Trickster

Member
O Canada Our Home and Native Land said:
If it is better for society the free market will take care of it.
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michael-jordan-laugh.gif
 
F

fabricated backlash

Member
The nostalgic rose tint that the DDR is being remembered in, even in academia is disgusting. The whitewashing of that murderous dictatorship by a few lucky people that got to enjoy the states services is not representative of the reality of the lower classes of their society.
 
W

Wafflecakes

Member
fabricated backlash said:
The nostalgic rose tint that the DDR is being remembered in, even in academia is disgusting. The whitewashing of that murderous dictatorship by a few lucky people that got to enjoy the states services is not representative of the reality of the lower classes of their society.
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Yup.

It is remarkable how people in this thread are falling over themselves to fabricate a false history as long as it fits a narrative that they WISH was true.

There are many arguements for socialism. This isn't one of them.
 
S

Spoiled Milk

Banned
Wafflecakes said:
Yup.

It is remarkable how people in this thread are falling over themselves to fabricate a false history as long as it fits a narrative that they WISH was true.

There are many arguements for socialism. This isn't one of them.
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I don't think living in a communist country will make your sex life better but I think there is an interesting story about how the specific set of conditions in East Germany caused that specific group of women to have, on average, better sex than the specific set of conditions allowed in West Germany, both in a comparison between the two places and in a before and after test in East Germany after reunification.
 
T

tsumineko

Member
The Fatal Englishman said:
Is this a serious question? East Germany, no question. Relative to the rest of the Eastern bloc, East Germany was quite successful however it was still an economic black hole compared to the West. Currency exchange gave way to a barter economy due to government price fixing. Basic goods were in short supply. Skilled workers, including doctors escaped the country left and right leading to a degradation in healthcare services. Childcare, while state-run and financed, was subject to the same indoctrination that was happening throughout the rest of the Eastern bloc.

It wasn't WW2 Germany, but it wasn't a happy existence either.

I would be curious to know how the alleged notion that women had better sex under a communist regime could possibly correlate with the exceedingly low birth rate in Eastern Germany.
Click to expand...

Okay, now explain how women have it better in modern US society. Thanks!
 
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