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[Trevelyan9999]

Before we go back down this road of gpgpu talk and go off the deep end. This was how the gpgpu came up. It was not a comment from Nintendo or a game developer or anything, it was people on a forum guessing.



http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1651176&highlight=gpgpu#post1651176

Now compute support is in every gpu that comes out. Its not something added in just for the wiiu. Some how this have gotten to a point that the "wiiu is design to use gpgpu" and we have NOTHING to support this. No one outside a forum is saying this...

Yes but you forget that it has been confirmed that the Wii U is using modern features in it's R700 architecture. Modern PC GPU's are all basically GPGPU's but there is no point in calling it that since this is how new GPU's are made. DirectX 11 features will make the Wii U a "modern" GPU......the GPGPU argument is irrelevant.

 

[bgassassin]

You guys do know that if you just wait a couple months all of this stuff will work itself out right? I really don't get why you need to spend like 100 pages arguing when none of you knows much of anything and all your questions will be answered soonish anyway.

You really think that will be answered in two months?

And I take offense to saying I don't know much of anything.

Feature sets are almost irrelevant? Lol no. The WiiU will handle ports from PS4 easier than from PS3? Probably not. You are both saying insane stuff.

Porting code from one GPU to another should/would be simpler than porting code from a CPU to a GPU.

Before we go back down this road of gpgpu talk and go off the deep end. This was how the gpgpu came up. It was not a comment from Nintendo or a game developer or anything, it was people on a forum guessing.



http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1651176&highlight=gpgpu#post1651176

Now compute support is in every gpu that comes out. Its not something added in just for the wiiu. Some how this have gotten to a point that the "wiiu is design to use gpgpu" and we have NOTHING to support this. No one outside a forum is saying this...

Guy from Havok said otherwise. Did you forget that quick?

 

[Ryoku]

How many pages and pages can you guys argue back and forth with zero new information being introduced?

It's absolutely mind-boggling.

You guys do know that if you just wait a couple months all of this stuff will work itself out right? I really don't get why you need to spend like 100 pages arguing when none of you knows much of anything and all your questions will be answered soonish anyway.

It's like a 10 hour debate on what someone will eat for lunch tomorrow. And it's pretty clear you are all arguing what you want to believe rather than what makes sense.

Feature sets are almost irrelevant? Lol no. The WiiU will handle ports from PS4 easier than from PS3? Probably not. You are both saying insane stuff.

If it bothers you so much, then you are more than welcome to try and change the topic, and hopefully it'll go as intended. But the majority of the speculation has been about hardware, so that won't go away anytime soon. Also, all signs point to Wii U being able to handle ports from PS4/Xbox3 easier than from current-gen. It's about architecture, and less about raw power, and based on what we know, the architectures of the next-gen systems seem to be roughly similar (more so than current-gen to Wii U) due to reliance and focus on GPGPU functions.

 

[Pineconn]

How many pages and pages can you guys argue back and forth with zero new information being introduced?

Feature sets are almost irrelevant? Lol no. The WiiU will handle ports from PS4 easier than from PS3? Probably not. You are both saying insane stuff.

You sound like you know something we don't. Please do share.

 

[Ryoku]

Guy from Havok said otherwise. Did you forget that quick?

Who said what, and why have I seemingly forgotten so quickly?

 

[Sheroking]

Maybe I missed it, but what happened to indicate GPGPU is an actual thing with the Wii-U?

I mean, with it's CPU at a low-clock, I guess it would make sense, but with developers talking as though the underclocked CPU is actually hindering their ports, doesn't that imply there is no GPGPU to compensate? Or are they just lazy asses who don't want to do the extra work?

Not hugely educated on this, so apologies to those who are offended by the stupid question (if indeed stupid).

 

[bgassassin]

Who said what, and why have I seemingly forgotten so quickly?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=39740317&postcount=7497

In the article linked and quoted by Trevelyan, he said the physics would be handled by Wii U's GPU.

 

[Margalis]

If it bothers you so much, then you are more than welcome to try and change the topic...

It doesn't really bother me as much as strike me as utterly pointless to see people argue for 20 pages without introducing a single new relevant fact that would change the argument in any way.

 

[Meelow]

Is that real or is that fanmade?.

 

[bgassassin]

It doesn't really bother me as much as strike me as utterly pointless to see people argue for 20 pages without introducing a single new relevant fact that would change the argument in any way.

If anything makes it pointless it's arguing with someone who continues to ignore the relevant info introduced.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Hey.

I think I was lying earlier.

This is actually pretty cool.

It's interesting seeing these games at their native resolutions.

 

[Trevelyan9999]

Maybe I missed it, but what happened to indicate GPGPU is an actual thing with the Wii-U?

I mean, with it's CPU at a low-clock, I guess it would make sense, but with developers talking as though the underclocked CPU is actually hindering their ports, doesn't that imply there is no GPGPU to compensate? Or are they just lazy asses who don't want to do the extra work?

Not hugely educated on this, so apologies to those who are offended by the stupid question (if indeed stupid).

Read this info: http://www.ztsystems.com/microsites/costco/main.html

Scroll down and read the part about Compute Shaders......that is part of DirectX 11 and that feature is also going to be in the Wii U GPU. This feature is one of the main parts of a General Purpose Graphics Processing Unit.

Compute Shaders FTW

 

[Roo]

Is that real or is that fanmade?.

fanmade of course. I saw it and decided to post it here.
I'm sure Nintendo will stick with the eShop name for Wii U's online store

 

[Meelow]

Read this info: http://www.ztsystems.com/microsites/costco/main.html

Scroll down and read the part about Compute Shaders......that is part of DirectX 11 and that feature is also going to be in the Wii U GPU. This feature is one of the main parts of a General Purpose Graphics Processing Unit.

Compute Shaders FTW

How good would the games look with this?.

fanmade of course. I saw it and decided to post it here.
I'm sure Nintendo will stick with the eShop name for Wii U's online store

Ahh ok, and probably.

 

[Trevelyan9999]

How good would the games look with this?.

Probably a bit better than the Zelda/Bird demo since those were done on a very early dev kit...........games using Compute Shaders, Deferred Rendering etc. will look pretty damn good.

 

[Meelow]

Probably a bit better than the Zelda/Bird demo since those were done on a very early dev kit.....so games using Compute Shaders, Deferred Rendering etc. will look even better by a good margin.

That makes me happy, the Zelda and Bird tech demo's impressed me so I can only imagine how much better they can look on more powerful hardware.

 

[Sheroking]

Read this info: http://www.ztsystems.com/microsites/costco/main.html

Scroll down and read the part about Compute Shaders......that is part of DirectX 11 and that feature is also going to be in the Wii U GPU. This feature is one of the main parts of a General Purpose Graphics Processing Unit.

Compute Shaders FTW

I get the basic idea of GPGPU (CPU computing on the GPU), but I'm still a little lost as to why we're so certain this is a going to be part of the Wii U GPU.

Is it simply because it was apart of the DX11 AMD cards, and we expect an equivalent on Wii U, or is it because we've actually heard something tangible about GPGPU in Wii U?

I see that Havok quote, which implies it, but was that all?

 

[MDX]

I dont know why Nintendo didnt just let everything out and just hype the heck outta their new console.

Even if they wanted hold back on online and other features, still let 3rd parties say what they have coming, even if no trailer and just logos wouldve helped hype.

You mean like this:

SAN FRANCISCO - July 11, 2012 - Today, Ubisoft® announced the upcoming release of Spartacus® Legends, a fighting game that will immerse users in the visceral world created by the popular Spartacus original series produced and distributed by Starz Entertainment. Spartacus Legends is a unique gaming experience based on popular characters from the international hit series.

Spartacus Legends comes early 2013. Gamers will experience primeval gladiator moments, from training inside the ludus to brutal battles in the arena, all while striving to become a legend.

Nintendo cant force publishers to announce games at E3. They have their own timings when they want to reveal their games.

 

[xxbrothawizxx63]

That actually looks pretty good.

 

[Trevelyan9999]

I get the basic idea of GPGPU (CPU computing on the GPU), but I'm still a little lost as to why we're so certain this is a going to be part of the Wii U GPU.

Is it simply because it was apart of the DX11 AMD cards, and we expect an equivalent on Wii U, or is it because we've actually heard something tangible about GPGPU in Wii U?

I see that Havok quote, which implies it, but was that all?

Yes.

DirectX 11 was released at the end of 2009, so a GPU with it's features should be a given in 2012, also it has been confirmed by developers that Wii U's GPU is a modern one. While "modern" is open to speculation, if it was not based on the features in DirectX 11 it would not be able to handle the features required for Next-Gen games. DirectX 11 does everything DirectX 10 does only more of it and with better performance. Using something based on DirectX 10.1 for the Wii U wouldn't make sense because it's not as optimized.

Compute Shaders were designed for DirectX 11: "Although DirectCompute was introduced with Microsoft* DirectX* 11, it is possible to run a compute shader on Microsoft* DirectX* 10-, 10.1-, and 11-class hardware" http://software.intel.com/en-us/art...mpute-on-intel-ivy-bridge-processor-graphics/

It's possible for them to get Compute Shaders running on DirectX 10.1 but it's not the intended target. This is another reason to conclude that the Wii U is using DirectX 11 Compute Shaders & modern features, thus making it a GPGPU or a modern DX11 GPU.


I hope that helps

 

[Meelow]

You mean like this:



Nintendo cant force publishers to announce games at E3. They have their own timings when they want to reveal their games.

Is that confirmed for Wii U?, or are they going to announce what platforms it's on tomorrow?.

 

[StevieP]

Maybe I missed it, but what happened to indicate GPGPU is an actual thing with the Wii-U?

I mean, with it's CPU at a low-clock, I guess it would make sense, but with developers talking as though the underclocked CPU is actually hindering their ports, doesn't that imply there is no GPGPU to compensate? Or are they just lazy asses who don't want to do the extra work?

Not hugely educated on this, so apologies to those who are offended by the stupid question (if indeed stupid).

Some of the teams porting to Wii U Are like... 5 people on a shoestring budget.

Hey.

I think I was lying earlier.

This is actually pretty cool.

It's interesting seeing these games at their native resolutions.

You have a TV that's native 600p? Lol

How do you keep r700 but add this feature sets? Doing this would change the core.

Yeah, AMD only does this when Microsoft asks for It.

I get the basic idea of GPGPU (CPU computing on the GPU), but I'm still a little lost as to why we're so certain this is a going to be part of the Wii U GPU.

Is it simply because it was apart of the DX11 AMD cards, and we expect an equivalent on Wii U, or is it because we've actually heard something tangible about GPGPU in Wii U?

I see that Havok quote, which implies it, but was that all?

Any modern architecture from the last few years includes support for compute.

 

[Redford]

How can they not use this? Great job if this is your shop.

My problem with your posting isn't whether you are right or wrong, even though you seem wrong most of the time. You are very hard to follow with your grammar and sentence structure. Basic syntax, grammar, and sentence structure seem to elude you. The sentence I bolded is a perfect example of why you are hard to follow. It does not make sense. Try and slow down when you are typing.

Why so meta.

 

[xxbrothawizxx63]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=39740317&postcount=7497

In the article linked and quoted by Trevelyan, he said the physics would be handled by Wii U's GPU.

The wording in that article is a little confusing. It really could go either way.....
He does seem to suggest that the Wii U's physics would be processed by the GPU as opposed to by the CPU as in the GDC demo, but read another way he could have been suggesting the GPU processing as only a contrast, especially since only the contrast of the GPU is in parentheses and not the rest of the sentence suggesting everything after "which" is a continuation of what came before the parentheses.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Some of the teams porting to Wii U Are like... 5 people on a shoestring budget.



You have a TV that's native 600p? Lol



Yeah, AMD only does this when Microsoft asks for It.



Any modern architecture from the last few years includes support for compute.

I'm playing the Mass Effects again.

What res are they at?

 

[MDX]

Here is how I see it. Am going with the glass half full approach:

WiiU's CPU is of different architecture and purpose than that of current consoles.

WiiU's CPU is powerful enough to do what it needs to do in relation to WiiU's GPU for next gen development.

But even so, its also powerful enough to run, for the most part, unoptimized code from this gen. Which means many developers will have no problem porting their current games. Though some developers have coded their games in a way that requires some tweaking and creativity to get the games to run at the same level as current consoles.

That said, it sounds like the WiiU's CPU is pretty powerful and will have no problem staying relevant for the next 6 to 7 years.

People worried about comments from the Tekken producer failed to take into account:

"coming along smoother than most people would think,"
"(The Wii U version is) coming along quite rapidly and (isn't) far behind (the Xbox 360 or PS3 versions)"
"Wii U version will launch as close as possible to system launch."

That the WiiU version is playing catch up, and its doing fine.

If the CPU was really a problem, we wouldn't be seeing as many ports for launch as we are looking to get. After 2013 the CPU will be a non issue, everything will hang on the power of WiiU's GPU. But in reality, its a non issue now.

 

[MDX]

Is that confirmed for Wii U?, or are they going to announce what platforms it's on tomorrow?.

Joystiq has marked this as a Wii U title.
We will know for sure tomorrow.

 

[Meelow]

Here is how I see it. Am going with the glass half full approach:

WiiU's CPU is of different architecture and purpose than that of current consoles.

WiiU's CPU is powerful enough to do what it needs to do in relation to WiiU's GPU for next gen development.

But even so, its also powerful enough to run, for the most part, unoptimized code from this gen. Which means many developers will have no problem porting their current games. Though some developers have coded their games in a way that requires some tweaking and creativity to get the games to run at the same level as current consoles.

That said, it sounds like the WiiU's CPU is pretty powerful and will have no problem staying relevant for the next 6 to 7 years.

People worried about comments from the Tekken producer failed to take into account:

"coming along smoother than most people would think,"
"(The Wii U version is) coming along quite rapidly and (isn't) far behind (the Xbox 360 or PS3 versions)"
"Wii U version will launch as close as possible to system launch."

That the WiiU version is playing catch up, and its doing fine.

If the CPU was really a problem, we wouldn't be seeing as many ports for launch as we are looking to get. After 2013 the CPU will be a non issue, everything will hang on the power of WiiU's GPU. But in reality, its a non issue now.

That's good, so it sounds like the Wii U will be able to get multiplats with the PS4/720?.

Joystiq has marked this as a Wii U title.
We will know for sure tomorrow.

Hopefully it comes, it is Ubisoft so that makes it a better chance.

 

[bgassassin]

The wording in that article is a little confusing. It really could go either way.....
He does seem to suggest that the Wii U's physics would be processed by the GPU as opposed to by the CPU as in the GDC demo, but read another way he could have been suggesting the GPU processing as only a contrast, especially since only the contrast of the GPU is in parentheses and not the rest of the sentence suggesting everything after "which" is a continuation of what came before the parentheses.

If that's the case I have no problem admitting being wrong.

 

[JordanN]

Hey guys, remember this?

http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/nebp8q/nintendo-e3-2011--reggie-interview-part-i

This was back when people thought the PS3/360 games showed where sub-PS3/360 level (well, people still think it is but you get the point).

It was followed up by this:

"Third party publishers have told us that the reason they couldn’t bring it to our platform was based on the horsepower of the machine. That excuse is gone. So now all of the best content can come to the machine."

And then Geoff said "So are the games going to look that good when it comes out?" and Reggie said "absolutely".

I don't see how the weak cpu would fit that bill.

 

[Pineconn]

That's good, so it sounds like the Wii U will be able to get multiplats with the PS4.

Hopefully. It seems like they considered this when designing the Wii U hardware. Of course, it depends if 3rd parties will find a new BS excuse in giving Nintendo the shaft.

 

[Redford]

Hey guys, remember this?

http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/nebp8q/nintendo-e3-2011--reggie-interview-part-i

This was back when people thought the PS3/360 games showed where sub-PS3/360 level (well, people still think it is but you get the point).

It was followed up by this:

"Third party publishers have told us that the reason they couldn’t bring it to our platform was based on the horsepower of the machine. That excuse is gone. So now all of the best content can come to the machine."

And then Geoff said "So are the games going to look that good when it comes out?" and reggie said "absolutely".

I don't see how the weak cpu would fit that bill.

I'm not necessarily saying he's lying, but I wouldn't put too much stock in 2011 PR from Reggie, at least as an indication of the current situation, haha.

 

[Meelow]

Hopefully. It seems like they considered this when designing the Wii U hardware. Of course, it depends if 3rd parties will find a new BS excuse in giving Nintendo the shaft.

I didn't really see any rumors but are the rumored specs of the PS4 close to the Wii U or something?.

 

[donny2112]

Nintendo and Namco can't wait until 2015!

Just announce it. That'll be a big difference. FFXIV/XV multi-platform including Wii U and DQX being on Wii U would be a big shot in the arm for Nintendo support from that fanbase. FF seems to have more overlap than DQ there.

 

[Ryoku]

I didn't really see any rumors but are the rumored specs of the PS4 close to the Wii U or something?.

Somewhat. And really, only somewhat. It's going to be a hell of a lot closer than it was this gen (PS360 = 20x Wii). Looking from a purely FLOPs point-of-view, 500-600 GFLOPS for Wii U vs. 1200 for Xbox3 vs. 1800 for PS4. Take it as you will, since it's only FLOP ratings. However, the more narrow gap coupled with same, modern feature-sets and similar architectures, you won't see the disparity you saw this generation. Porting and downscaling should be easy. Given Wii U's power, the downscaled games shouldn't look bad, either (given Wii U is more powerful than a PS3). That's also up to how much effort is put into the ports. They'll just look better on PS4. Noticeably so, too.

 

[Drago]

this thread is way too confusing

can we talk about games or something

 

[Ryoku]

this thread is way too confusing

can we talk about games or something

What?

 

[MDX]

Read this info: http://www.ztsystems.com/microsites/costco/main.html

Scroll down and read the part about Compute Shaders......that is part of DirectX 11 and that feature is also going to be in the Wii U GPU. This feature is one of the main parts of a General Purpose Graphics Processing Unit.

Compute Shaders FTW

Ok... Im going to break this down:

Tessellation... for real time rendering via DirectX 11

None
http://game.amd.com/us-en/content/images/unlock/dx11/Scene_NoTess-logo.jpg

With
http://game.amd.com/us-en/content/images/unlock/dx11/Scene_Tess-logo.jpg

While specs of the machine are still a mystery to most, Gearbox has said that due to the Wii U's more advanced tech, they can provide the best looking experience on Nintendo's new console. Gearbox Senior Producer Brian Burleson states “The Wii U is a powerful, powerful machine and it can do a lot of cool new things. And so the game itself, moving it over to work on the Wii U was not much of a chore.”

Im going to bet this wont be possible unless the WiiU was supporting DX11 level of Tessellation.

Compute Shaders
With DirectX 11 and DirectCompute, developers are able to use the massive parallel processing power of modern GPUs to accelerate a much wider range of applications that were previously only executable on CPUs.

Depth of field

advanced lighting techniques to enhance the mood... incredibly realistic lighting and shadow combinations

Nintendoland is certainly not intended to mimic reality, but the use lighting and shadows is incredible.

Compute Shaders can be used to enable new graphical techniques to enhance image quality (such as order independent transparency, ray tracing, and advanced post-processing effects), or to accelerate a wide variety of non-graphics applications (such as video transcoding, video upscaling, game physics simulation, and artificial intelligence).

Digital Foundry: Hands-On with Wii U:

New rendering effects were especially apparent in games such as Pikmin 3 and ZombiU, the first of which boasted some very detailed reflections on Olimar's glass helmet, and with some impressive radiosity effects around the nursery toys in the latter demo.

Above all, lighting is the area which has seen the greatest improvement in this generational leap. The bustling main hub area in Nintendo Land is filled with light sources, from the 3D particle effects that represent the fireworks and confetti, which each produce a vivid bloom, to the lights on the rotating carriages. Shadows move across the Mii's faces too as they wander around, adding subtle levels of depth.

We see superior reflections and transparencies playing across the collectible fruit and mushrooms in Pikmin, and a dynamic shadow system cropping up to spectacular effect in Nintendo Land's hub-world. We even see some richly detailed fabric textures and knitted enemies in the Zelda Battle Quest mini-game that are gorgeous to look at in motion. The best part about these improvements is that they're being dealt out in the distinctly reserved fashion that characterises Nintendo, where technology continues to serve its art. Right now, it's well on its way to embellishing its games in ways we'd always hoped they would.

 

[GiantEnemyGoomba]

this thread is way too confusing

can we talk about games or something

Wii U has games (we think). There. Now get back to the important topic.

 

[jerd]

this thread is way too confusing

can we talk about games or something

Yes.

Retro Studio's game will be Earthbound 2.

During the Wii U's lifespan, Nintendo will release a spiritual successor to Super Mario RPG, a turn based RPG starring Nintendo Superstars such as Mario, Link, Samus, Kirby and more.

Donkey Kong U, a direct sequel to DK64, Will be released Holiday 2013.

Nintendo will release a brand new, feature length, top-down Legend of Zelda Game in glorious 1080p... on the eShop... for $9.99

A new 3D Mario game will be released. There will be no story of note. It will be perfect.

A new Metroid game will be released that is so immersive and intense that it hinges on survival-horror.

Nintendo will introduce a new IP. Critic's consensus describes it as "aight".

 

[bgassassin]

this thread is way too confusing

can we talk about games or something

I'll say this before I go to bed. My take on the WUSTs is that at their peak they could be broken down into three things.

1. Hype train
2. Software/Non-hardware talk
3. Hardware talk

The hype train talk really began to take off with the second WUST. To the point where it really dominated the other two at times. The move to Community slowed that down and with E3 gone it's dead right now. Software talk can only do so much without actual info, but it still remained strong. I'd say 1 and 2 had/have a symbiotic relationship. But with a dependency on the HT to spur discussion, it waned with the move to Community and with E3 passing and still not much info it's died down quite a bit. I think there are quite a few posts of people saying they want to talk about games instead of just doing it, but what can they talk about? If they had something to talk about they would just carry on a discussion. The problem is you can retread the little bit we got from E3 only so much and Nintendo continuing to keep quiet doesn't help at all to spur that segment of discussion. And hype about HD Nintendo games can only go so far. So that leaves Hardware. This has normally thrived on the lack of info because the idea is to understand what the hardware is capable of. Due to the continued lack of info, hardware discussion continues on the same pace it has been on.

So while some I know feel hardware is being discussed too much, the problem is the other components aren't being discussed enough. We all know the WUSTs go through discussion cycles, so when the hardware's cycle ends there's nothing to really talk about. Then eventually it cycles back around to hardware. That's my view on why hardware is "dominating" so much. It's not that we are talking more about hardware, we're talking less about the other things. This is shown by how the time between posts drops off so much once we shift away from hardware talk. I'd say this is how the thread will continue until we get info to boost 1 and 2 again. Hopefully EA will do that since they are supposed to be presenting some things this month.

 

[AzaK]

Nintendoland is certainly not intended to mimic reality, but the use lighting and shadows is incredible.

I really, really want to see some high res, moving, direct feed nintendo land footage. Every time I see a screenshot, it just looks like it might be doing something amazing. The shadows look light they could be great.

 

[Nibel]

The shadows and lighting look really, really good in Nintendoland; but holy shit, the hubworld design is awful.

 

[Captain Smoker]

I really, really want to see some high res, moving, direct feed nintendo land footage. Every time I see a screenshot, it just looks like it might be doing something amazing. The shadows look light they could be great.

http://e3.nintendo.com/videos/#/Wii-U-Developer-Discussion

Jump to 4:10

 

[EatChildren]

Depth of field

Not exclusive to DX11, nor an example of DX11 functions. Games all over this generation including on the Wii have used various forms of DOF.

 

[DAREALGUMMY]

and the lower clock speed topic has hit the main board. I'm hiding in here til it's over.

 

[MadeInBeats]

Not exclusive to DX11, nor an example of DX11 functions. Games all over this generation including on the Wii have used various forms of DOF.

WiiU examples are obviously superior.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Not exclusive to DX11, nor an example of DX11 functions. Games all over this generation including on the Wii have used various forms of DOF.

We'll think of something damn it!

 

[Ryoku]

http://e3.nintendo.com/videos/#/Wii-U-Developer-Discussion

Jump to 4:10

Holy shit, just realized that it's being rendered twice, both on the Gamepad and the television. EDIT: Or is only a video being shown on one of the screens?
Also, the global illumination looks incredible. So much radiosity going on in there, and it doesn't seem to be baked.

 

[MadeInBeats]

We'll think of something damn it!

It's no coincidence that at least three U launch games are using DoF on-tap, it's obviously an onboard hardware feature and not a struggling coded filter effect. Blatant clear as day.