Wii U Speculation Thread 2: Can't take anymore of this!!!
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Optical_Matrix
Banned
Some troll that went around to every Nintendo thread posting things like that, he got banned (finally) though.
Ah, that's what you were referring to.
Call it delusional if you want, but facts are facts.
Delusional!
Stealing isn't a bad thing. I wish Nintendo stole a few things from Sony and Microsoft.
Optical_Matrix
Banned
Well make no mistake, I'm not this guy. I just think a few of those comments I read up the page were a tad fanboyish and outright asinine compared to the generally level headed and pleasant to read posts I've read over my past day or so of being a member. So I decided to comment on it.
@Anth0ny http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbSzmRt7HhQ That argument is a bit of a gray area. I don't really see it as stealing ideas. I just think when it comes to innovations in way to play and gameplay, Nintendo are the leaders. For example, take title fight, I saw one guy claim Sony had stolen the idea from Nintendo, even though we've have collaboration fighting games for donkeys years and the game isn't even officially confirmed yet, with no gameplay in sight.
I'm not too sure how that's not a bannable comment, and yet somehow, calling a couple of people up on their ignorance is. But alas, it's irrelevant. I've argued my case and would rather just talk about the topic at hand.
IceDoesntHelp
Banned
Next time you should like, quote the post(s).
I played the Move once at the mall in 2010, and I've always wondered what the ball really was for. It just glows and is...squishy.
Nintendo should copy Microsoft, but that's not Nintendo-like.
Nintendo doing a Nintendoesque online structure that rivals, if not better than, the other 2 systems is what I see in the future.
ShockingAlberto
Member
It helps the camera see and identify it more easily.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Which is a perfectly valid opinion. But the way you expressed it is not particularly popular around here. Looking forward to your more thought-out contributions. Enjoy gaf.
Fess
Member
In a nutshell, yes. Copying, or stealing, an idea and then optimize it and make it better. That's what they do. If you think about it their whole existence in the gaming industry is built on that. They had nothing before working with Nintendo on that CD based SNES console. A few years later they launched PlayStation and dominated the industry like nothing before them, with a CD based console with a SNES controller with handles. Bold move. And very very successful.
Then talk about the topic at hand. Making passive aggressive condescending remarks isn't the best way to enter a conversation.
Optical_Matrix
Banned
You could argue that Nintendo refusing to 'copy' the competition is a double edge sword. It's made them look extremely unique, and has helped them retain some key philosophies that define them as a software and hardware developer but at the same time, they're far too close minded for a videogame platform holder in 2012.
Sony had to bite the bullet and work to make PSN even so much as comparable to XBL, even if it meant 'copying' things like achievements, and quite frankly, if Nintendo want to regain their lost audience, so must they. People like me and you and the others in this thread will flock to the Wii U be it on the premise that it's a HD Nintendo console. But we're a few men among millions of potential consumers who don't have that brand loyalty unfortunately.
I see. 90s art styles are what's in the next generation.
Oh alright thanks. It's a question I really wanted to know but I'm just not motivated enough to look for the answer.
Even though I hate things like achievements and trophies and whatnot, nintendo would be foolish not to allow devs access to meta-gamescores that they've been putting into their games for years. It would be cool if they actually meant something though. I've always really liked the idea of nintendo using coins like they do in the 3DS on their next console as their gamerscore points that can be cashed in for things like mii accessories, backgrounds, in-game swag, etc. I know it might be a better idea to monetarily speaking to charge for such things, but it seems right up nintendo's alley to make real incentives for unlocking achievements other than for a worthless point tally.
TheCongressman1
Member
Well popping into a thread with "Circle Jerk" is probably not the best way to enter a discussion.
They have already started as far as the 3DS goes. However I'm not really sure the typical "You have done X Y's" type of achievement that everyone seems to do is particularly interesting unless they can turn that into something other than just improving a score. I realise that a segment of the audience loves collect-a-thons, which is what achievements basically are, but there has to be a more elegant way than just thinking up 50 different "activities" to make someone do.
I quite like how Metroid Prime 3 awarded you with tokens as you played that you used to unlock little features like screenshots, music etc. You could also exchange them with friends.
Optical_Matrix
Banned
I think the Club Nintendo system is a starting point. Achievements get you coins which you can then trade for some kind of physical or even digital reward. I think that'd be a nice USP for Nintendo's network. I'm an avid user of Club Nintendo and I think there's so much potential in there on the networking front that isn't being realised.
I don't want to question to bonafides of the fine people of B3D, but the idea of sharing a pool of eDRAM between the CPU and GPU doesn't make one bit of sense to me. First of all, they'd have to be on a SoC, which we haven't heard even the slightest rumour about. Second of all, even if they did decide to go that route, you'd basically be telling graphics coders "Good news, you've got a 32MB framebuffer, only you have to share it with the CPU, so a good chunk of it's going to be allocated to multithreaded AI flags, and there's going to be a varying amount of CPU traffic using up the bandwidth in a way you can't predict!" while at the same time telling CPU coders "Good news, there's 32MB of eDRAM the CPU can use, but it's not a cache, so you have to manage it yourself, and it's technically on the GPU so the the latency's going to be huge, and it's also being used for the framebuffer, so the GPU's going to be using up the bandwidth in a way you can't predict, slowing down all those multi-threaded AI routines you were working on!".
The advantage of a large eDRAM framebuffer like on Xenos is that the GPU has a pool of dedicated, extremely high-bandwidth, low latency memory on which to perform MSAA, Z-buffering, etc. By forcing the GPU to share it with the CPU you limit the ability to tightly optimise, as the CPU's bandwidth usage will be effectively unpredictable, even if you do specifically designate a fixed partition between the GPU and CPU in terms of eDRAM use.
On the CPU front, a coder wants to be given a single pool of memory to deal with. You just create the object in C++, the compiler defines how much memory is required, the OS allocates it and the cache pre-fetches it from memory as it's about to be needed. Having to effectively manually manage a cache-like pool of memory is almost always more hassle than it's worth. Look at the Cell. One of the issues with the Cell design is that the SPEs don't have any cache, but instead have 256kB of "local storage" which has to be actively managed by whoever's coding it, and messages and flags between SPEs have to be manually sent back and forth via the chip's internal bus. This can be a huge amount of work which, unless you're Naughty Dog, doesn't provide much in the way of gain over a simple symmetric multi-core design where you can effectively just dump decently multithreaded code and the cache handles all the memory management.
On the subject of the cache in the CPU, the way the eDRAM on the Power7 works is that each core has "it's own" 4MB of cache, and can also access the other cores' cache. I don't see any reason for the same kind of thing not to be the case in the Wii U's CPU, although obviously with lower amounts.
3MB may be more eDRAM than any other console's CPU, but it still does the exact same job as SRAM does in a cache, albeit at a higher density and with higher minimum latencies. I would simply have expected more, given the density and previous comments that were made about it.
Ah now, I never said anything about Sony.
JerzeyDevil
Banned
I know I'm probably alone on this, but achievements almost ruin the experience for. Nothing like seeing one pop up in the middle of a cutscene, and I absolutely cannot stand seeing a list of incomplete games on my PS3 trophies list. Im one of those gamers who needs everything to be organized the way I want, and uniform.
I'd rather Nintendo put their time into getting online right.
I'd rather Nintendo put their time into getting online right.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I like achievements/trophies. I don't actively pursue them most of the time, but when I truly love a game, it makes it so enjoyable for me to go back to it and try to 100% attain everything. Adds a lot, but when I don't care for them I just ignore them.
you can turn off notifications, I'm semi-sure of that
The ball was just to gain extra accuracy from being tracked by the camera. Move was such a messy solution to something that people had already experienced. It was never going to gain traction.
Kinect had the novelty factor, just like the Wii had.
AceBandage
Banned
Mmm, all these rumors lately.
It really is new console time.
Can't you smell it?
It really is new console time.
Can't you smell it?
Does anyone have any concrete local times for the release of the report and the briefing?
Ban bet with Thraktor?
Ban bet with Thraktor?
I hadn't used Club Nintendo until I got my 3DS, and I haven't redeemed anything yet so I don't know a lot about it. However integrating it into the console so you could redeem rewards from their would be nice.
Me too. I'm happy to not have achievements that pop up all the time throughout a game. Tastefully done they could be OK, like an achievement at the end of a boss battle or end of an act in a narrative driven game.
God no!
I don't actually expect it to happen, I was just saying that it's not completely impossible.
Mr. Saturn
Member
Yeah... no, from what I've seen there have been quite a few level headed people in this thread as well a few people who have been critical of Nintendo, so it's hardly the circle jerk you make it out to be.
So instead of contributing nothing to the conversation, why don't you instead explain your distaste in this thread in detail.
The speculation and general excitement in this thread is what I'd expect from speculation threads for the PS4 and Xbox 3.
Edit: Never mind you explained your position above, but next time you really should just quote the posts that you feel have a circle jerk quality.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
You'd probably have to see the entire line of discussion to get the full context (IIRC it was more a hypothetical question, not necessarily saying it should be that way), but you do raise some fair points.
That thread is insanity.
IceDoesntHelp
Banned
You told us that a rumour would state that the Wii U is only 2x stronger than the 360?
AceBandage
Banned
You told us that Develop doesn't know what it's talking about?
They have an old source that is saying 2x, which also means 5x....
Yeah...
Fantastical
Death Prophet
Yep, smells like mass bannings.
bgassassin
Member
Well this is starting to go over my head as I didn't come anywhere near finishing school for this and my job path took me further away.
But considering what was said about using eDRAM in that regard the last part of your first paragraph comes off as being highly exaggerated. Not saying it's wrong, just compared to what I've read that's how it sounds.
Also I didn't say it wasn't shared. I said there were no indications of it being shared. I'm very familiar with how it works in the POWER7 chip.
The last part is just us going in a circle on the same thing. You said that amount would be disappointing due to the eDRAM's density, I said I can see it being used to keep the die size down. I think this makes either three or four times now.
Well, one reason you might not see a high end GPU is simply due to the size of the case. The thing is less than half the size of 360 slim (~40%), and will more than likely use the same process technologies (40/45nm). There really isn't a whole lot of room even considering that they'll be using a slim optical drive.
You can talk about cutting the clocks of rv770 or rv740, but then at what point do you consider that still the same class of hardware?
Was this posted already?
http://www.nintendoenthusiast.com/2...kits-retro-star-fox-rocksteady-tmnt-and-more/
http://www.nintendoenthusiast.com/2...kits-retro-star-fox-rocksteady-tmnt-and-more/
-Pyromaniac-
Member
A while ago buddy. But it's always nice to read again.
AceBandage
Banned
Free Ice Cream every time you go online!
That's a valid point, but that falls more in the realm of pure speculation. iirc, the actual size of the GPU is still unknown. I wouldn't be too surprised if it was on 32nm, but we'll see. It'll be customized to high hell though, that's for sure. Other things to speculate on concerning the case is the presence of lots and lots of vents, something we didn't see much of in the original Wii. And though I personally don't think the design will change, that's also still a possibility. We know what was in the cases at E3 was more or less a placeholder. Much has changed in the dev kits since then, so maybe nintendo has decided to redesign it a bit. The first line of devkits did have overheating issues after all. I'll be the first to admit though that I know next to nothing about heat dissipation and what it would take to put something like an rv770 equivalent in something the size of the wii u.
A mobile variant of the RV740, the HD4860, which is equivalent to what we're talking about here, had a 35W TDP back in 2009 on a 40nm process. Which is around the power usage we're talking about (I'm expecting max 40W for the GPU). Consider furthermore that Nintendo's GPUs have been made by NEC for 10 years, and NEC is already capable of producing 32nm chips and possibly even 28nm at this point.
bgassassin
Member
That's a very fair question. Interestingly Ars Technica at CES said the console was surprisingly heavy. As mentioned by blu and was the only thing I can think of since the power supply is external is that they put some decent cooling in there for it to weigh enough to make them notice it.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
Was he banned again?
AceBandage
Banned
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