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[royalan]

I still don't get. Is Nintendo using a external engine for its benchmarks?
Why llherre say that he hopes that Nintendo improves that for the next dev kit revision?
What has Nintendo to do with optimization of a thrid party engine... ?

It's probably more to improve their relations with 3rd parties than them needing 3rd party engines for their own games.

Wouldn't really help for Nintendo to send around benchmarks that basically say "Well, our engine runs GREAT, suckas!"

EDIT: What Ace said...

 

[jkanownik]

All I know is that the tech demos I saw at E3 looked pretty good. Considering Nintendo has never not met or exceeded their tech demos, that will be the bar I set for my expectations. Anybody doing anything else (that does not have inside info) is setting themselves up for disappointment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEF9Utdu-L0

 

[Donnie]

What about Xbox 1?

To be fair to you while the architecture of the chips in Wii was designed in 1999/2000 the process the chips were produced on wasn't available until well after that. So its unlikely the processor speeds used in Wii were attainable then. Also GDDR3 wasn't available until 2003 (?). So you can't really say that Wii was fully from either 1999 or 2002.

 

[Azure J]

It's pretty easy to figure out that the engine is probably Frostbite 2. Aliens uses a modified version of UE3 and Crytek has confirmed the Cryengine 3 was running on it without alluding to any hiccups.

Hmm, I wonder what Frostbite would have issues with if it's another engine made with more powerful hardware scaling in mind.

 

[Roo]

I love how this thread has the power to go back and forth.
Hype and meltdowns in matter of seconds.
Nintendo Magic =)

 

[Skiesofwonder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEF9Utdu-L0

??

What are you linking to? It won't play for me, though I am on my IPhone.

 

[Aostia]

every three pages the Wii U transform into something different...
It's quiet impressive the amount of speculation we (core gamers) can put into this topic

 

[Endtroducing]

Read the the IdeaMan(or whatever his sn was), and see it all makes sense.

He point's out smaller devs don't get first dibs on updates. Most people got the 2nd and 3rd kits. It was around shortly after E3, when a few developers were asking Nintendo to up the power.

Ninty in-house devs gets the latest, then Big name devs/teams (probably where lherre sits), followed small devs (Arkam).

Arkam probably has V3(on par with X360) which is around the time devs were asking for more and got it with V4. lherre got V4 which is a slight step up.

 

[AceBandage]

Hmm, I wonder what Frostbite would have issues with if it's another engine made with more powerful hardware scaling in mind.

It's not that it's having issues, though.
This is what people aren't getting.
No where did he say the engine was having issues. Simply that it was not optimized to his own personal desires.
And then he goes on to say that that could very well be fixed.

 

[EloquentM]

??

What are you linking to? It won't play for me, though I am on my IPhone.

gc spaceworld zelda tech demo. he's implying that nintendo never met the expectation of that demo. its an argument that's occurred in this thread before.

 

[themadcowtipper]

??

What are you linking to? It won't play for me, though I am on my IPhone.

He is saying you are incorrect Nintendo always out performs there tech demos

 

[Skiesofwonder]

gc spaceworld zelda tech demo. he's implying that nintendo never met the expectation of that demo. its an argument that's occurred in this thread before.

Well I believe you know where I side on that argument. Twilight Princess, Windwaker, and especially Resident Evil 4 trump the spaceworld tech demo (IMO).

He is saying you are incorrect Nintendo always out performs there tech demos

That is what I said.

 

[royalan]

It's not that it's having issues, though.
This is what people aren't getting.
No where did he say the engine was having issues. Simply that it was not optimized to his own personal desires.
And then he goes on to say that that could very well be fixed.

No shade to Llerre, as I appreciate what insight he provides into the state of the Wii U...but if that's the case, why even say anything? If it's just an issue of software not being optimized yet, then these last few pages have been absolutely pointless.

Unless...in some deep dark corner of his heart he fears that optimization won't ever come...

 

[TunaLover]

It's too soon to compare, I won't say 2x or 5x or a number sorry. I only saw that a current engine is not optimze yet for the machine but I think they will improve it and will run like all of us want to see (or at least I hope)

They = Nintendo or engine maker?

I get confused when he mix dev kits with the engine part.

 

[Endtroducing]

I still don't get. Is Nintendo using a external engine for its benchmarks?
Why llherre say that he hopes that Nintendo improves that for the next dev kit revision?
What has Nintendo to do with optimization of a thrid party engine... ?

Well, if you want to demonstrate something, you want to use something that most people will be familiar with.


Also he mentions, famous engine and bring upt UE4. I'm guessing the data Ninty release must have came from UE3(3.5/3.99) test.

 

[AceBandage]

No shade to Llerre, as I appreciate what insight he provides into the state of the Wii U...but if that's the case, why even say anything? If it's just an issue of software not being optimized yet, then these last few pages have been absolutely pointless.

Unless...in some deep dark corner of his heart he fears that optimization won't ever come...

He is simply giving us info that he has heard.
Info that comes directly from Nintendo.
And he implied that it might not be optimized to his liking.
That is a real possibility.

However, this is what he said:

It's too soon to compare, I won't say 2x or 5x or a number sorry. I only saw that a current engine is not optimze yet for the machine but I think they will improve it and will run like all of us want to see (or at least I hope)

So, he believes that it will be up to snuff with expectations, but it's not a sure thing.

These last few pages are only pointless because people take things at face value, rather than trying to actually understand what is being said and what is happening.
Stop.
Take a deep breath.
Read and think.

 

[Gahiggidy]

A direct feed of the bird demo was never released, correct?

One problem with off screen video is that is that it adds a 'gauze' of sorts that covers up image defects making the rendering appear to have higher image quality than seeing it in person.

 

[bgassassin]

And I don't see what's so bad about being optimistic, in these cases.
Rather than taking things directly at face value we analyze what was said and what is and try to explain it.

Yep. Although I'd say that even at face value it's not as bad as some want to believe.

A direct feed of the bird demo was never released, correct?

Not with the improvements of the E3 floor demo at least.

 

[Aostia]

It's not that it's having issues, though.
This is what people aren't getting.
No where did he say the engine was having issues. Simply that it was not optimized to his own personal desires.
And then he goes on to say that that could very well be fixed.

Well, but: if actually Wii U is not able to running "at its best" the Frostbite engine, I think that we can say farewell to the UE4.
Is that a big problem? I don't know, probably yes, if UE4 will be use as much as UE3 in the next generation...

 

[Instro]

Well, if you want to demonstrate something, you want to use something that most people will be familiar with.


Also he mentions, famous engine and bring upt UE4. I'm guessing the data Ninty release must have came from UE3(3.5/3.99) test.

He brought up UE4 because people asked if that's the engine he was talking about.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

They = Nintendo or engine maker?

I get confused when he mix dev kits with the engine part.

Sounds like he means the engine maker/developer.

 

[Forsaken82]

The thing is what engine? I cant imagine its a current gen engine. If it is someones gotta be fucking up cause all the current gen engines are designed to run on stuff that would be far weaker than the Wii U.

I could see Unreal 4 having issues to where they need further optimization

I actually disagree and think it could be any number of current gen engines, and it all stems from not being properly optimized for the hardware. I would even wager that UE 4 will end up more optimized upon its launch on Wii U than any of the current gen engines will be during the Wii U's launch simply because Epic will know what to expect from the Wii U while they work on UE4, where as the current versions of UE3 or Frostbite 2 or CryEngine, or what have you are all optimized for current hardware.

Think about it for a second... why should a game engine like Frostbite 2.0 be optimized well for what is currently unfinished tech? Same with UE3. Until the hardware is finalized, any engine is going to be poorly optimized so in reality, a "popular" engine poorly optimized pre hardware launch is hardly surprising.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Think about it for a second... why should a game engine like Frostbite 2.0 be optimized well for what is currently unfinished tech? Same with UE3. Until the hardware is finalized, any engine is going to be poorly optimized so in reality, a "popular" engine poorly optimized pre hardware launch is hardly surprising.

That makes sense, I agree.

 

[Endtroducing]

Yes english is not my first language, feel free to correct me when you see a mistake (not only you, all of you in the thread).

lhere, awhile back you mentioned the CPU to be 3-core, 2 thread SMT, with different size cache for the main core and "secondary cores".

Can you tell us more about that? Is it highly clocked(GHz) or on the low side?

I'm just trying to see what architecture it would. maybe PPE-like, or closer to broadway, with a little bit of CELL-like approach. Thanks.

 

[Gahiggidy]

He is saying you are incorrect Nintendo always out performs there tech demos

An exception would be the Wave Race clip.

 

[AceBandage]

Well, but: if actually Wii U is not able to running "at its best" the Frostbite engine, I think that we can say farewell to the UE4.
Is that a big problem? I don't know, probably yes, if UE4 will be use as much as UE3 in the next generation...

No.
Ok.
Let me try this again.

Let's say you have system X and system Y. Then you make game engine A.

You have engine A running at 100% optimization on system Y (this pretty much never happens, by the way, but for the sake of argument...).
Then let's say system X comes along and you try and put engine A on it. You can't just plop the code into the memory and expect it to run like it would on system Y.
You need to rework it.

This is what they are doing right now. This is what Nintendo is striving for. They want to make the system optimized for popular engines, and, with non final hardware they are working towards that goal.

They could very well get it running perfectly where EA or whoever wants it to. They could not.

Either way, we can't say for sure based on what we know right now.

 

[TunaLover]

But if Wii U were powerful enough it shouldn´t run a current engine just fine even when it is not optimized yet?

 

[AceBandage]

But if Wii U were powerful enough it shouldn´t run a current engine just fine even when it is not optimized yet?

*sigh*

Again. Nothing has been said to suggest that the engine isn't running fine. Simply that it isn't optimized.

Every combination of parts is new and takes special code and tools to make software run on it. The Wii U is a new system, still in the development phase, and it takes time for developers to fully grasp new hardware.

 

[Übermatik]

Here we go again...

This is weird. Whenever we hear about hardware figures, we consistently hear figures indicating 2+ x performance increases, but whenever we hear about software it seems Nintendo has duct taped an N64 onto a 360 and called it a day.

So true.

From all these mixed messages we've been getting I've taken the decision to deny the Wii U exists.

 

[themadcowtipper]

Barely running current engines, when will this company learn......

 

[Azure J]

It's not that it's having issues, though.
This is what people aren't getting.
No where did he say the engine was having issues. Simply that it was not optimized to his own personal desires.
And then he goes on to say that that could very well be fixed.

Gotcha, thanks.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Barely running current engines, when will this company learn......

lol

 

[DrWong]

They could call it Nintendo Ninja: Forum Dweller Massacre.

Nintenja?

Barely running current engines, when will this company learn......

Not what he said. Go back to read plz.

 

[AzaK]

I think you and Ace are some of the most optimistic people that I have ever come across.

Optimistic? I'd suggest realistic. Optimistic would be "Wii U runs Samaritan @ 1080 60fps". I love all this tech talk, but in the end it's what the games will look like that matter and I have little difficulty believing that hardware that was running the Bird Demo or Zelda demo, on alpha kits almost a year ago is going to be more than adequate.

So true.

From all these mixed messages we've been getting I've taken the decision to deny the Wii U exists.

That is probably the best course of action to take. Carry on with life and tune back in at Nintendo's E3 conference.

Barely running current engines, when will this company learn......

Ba-dum-chaaa!

 

[TunaLover]

At this point I just hope that Wii U don´t get Dreamcasted, that is my lowest expectative.

 

[themadcowtipper]

Nintenja?



Not what he said. Go back to read plz.

It was a joke , based on an earlier post. The person said when will this company ever fucking learn. I try to use that line as much as possible.

 

[HylianTom]

Like I said, I'm not even targeting lherre specifically. We just had another post today from someone who hasn't been confirmed, and no one questioned it (probably because it was so optimistic).

*ahem*

I want to ask: has IdeaMan been "verified" with our mods?

(we asked the same of someone else, so I want to be fair here.)

 

[StevieP]

Well, but: if actually Wii U is not able to running "at its best" the Frostbite engine, I think that we can say farewell to the UE4.
Is that a big problem? I don't know, probably yes, if UE4 will be use as much as UE3 in the next generation...

Confirmed, Wii U less powerful than iPad2.

 

[themadcowtipper]

Confirmed, Wii U less powerful than iPad2.

I thought that was confirmed years ago....

 

[IceDoesntHelp]

I thought that was confirmed years ago....

How long have you known about the Wii U for o_o

 

[AceBandage]

How long have you known about the Wii U for o_o

Since the dawning of the age of Aquarius.

 

[bgassassin]

Since the dawning of the age of Aquarius.

Bah! Now this verse is stuck on loop in my head.

 

[AceBandage]

Bah! Now this verse is stuck on loop in my head.

My work here is done.

 

[cyberheater]

*sigh*

Again. Nothing has been said to suggest that the engine isn't running fine. Simply that it isn't optimized.

Every combination of parts is new and takes special code and tools to make software run on it. The Wii U is a new system, still in the development phase, and it takes time for developers to fully grasp new hardware.

It can be optimization of course but right now it is far from the step I want from a new generation.

Yep. It's running just fine.

 

[themadcowtipper]

How long have you known about the Wii U for o_o

Yamauchi told me about during the 80's while he was coked up.

 

[wsippel]

Thanks to share this info, and yes V5 (well they have another code name) kits exist (only in Nintendo headquarters I think). Although I don't think they will have big changes.

Do you have any idea what the DK-DEV kit is? Seems slightly older than the latest CAT-DEV, but has a higher version number (V5 vs. V42).

Also, do you know if direct register access is available on current kits, or do developer have to use higher level APIs?

 

[AceBandage]

Yep. It's running just fine.

Not sure if you're agreeing with me or not here...

 

[Instro]

Yep. It's running just fine.

Far from what he wants in the "next generation", so it is running the engine better than current consoles but not as well as he wants. At least that's how I would read that.

 

[cyberheater]

Far from what he wants in the "next generation", so it is running the engine better than current consoles but not as well as he wants. At least that's how I would read that.

Pretty much how I read that as well.

The underlying subtext also seems to point to the fact that he doesn't think the hardware side is going to get another substantial boost so it's left to optimize game engine code to get it running better.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Yep. It's running just fine.

Seems lherre was just hoping for a full generational leap, when we've all known from the start that it would be less (and possibly not just in Nintendo's case).

Lherre, can you confirm that the reference to slightly better framerate is in comparison to the older version of the Wii U dev kits and not current gen consoles?

Even if the engine is merely running slightly better than current consoles at the moment without optimization, that just lines up with what the Vigil guys were saying last year. It's easy to port to from the 360, and that will get you slightly better results than that system without trying too hard. Further optimization should produce more "wow."

Edit: What you said.