So only GCN is DX11 compatible?
I still dont see what that has to do what DX11, a competitors API, have to do with Nintendo's API
Not by me, unless you think asking a question is the same as answering it.
WiiU "Latte" GPU Die Photo - GPU Feature Set And Power Analysis
- Thread starter Thraktor
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So only GCN is DX11 compatible?
I still dont see what that has to do what DX11, a competitors API, have to do with Nintendo's API
Not by me, unless you think asking a question is the same as answering it.
Woah... chill dude. I was just asking a question. I'm not one of the ones who pretend to just be curious then attack you for his own presumptions of what you said afterward.
I've been following the Wii U info since launch and I don't remember seeing anything about it being DX10.1 post launch.(I still want to see those places were it was mentioned as that would be helpful).
Your hypothesis are noted.
I seem to be getting two different stories here. That lack of DX11 limits the console on one front, and whether is DX9/10/11 they can all do the same thing so it doesn't matter on another.
This doesn't add up to me given all of the other data I've seen. On one hand, you have comments like the one by the KH3 dev who said the Wii U wasn't getting it due to it not having DX11 capability. Then you have all of these devs, and the project cars log that list the Wii U as receiving nothing but DX11 implementations of features(and the PS4 and Wii U receiving the same one in the last instance but not he 360/PS3) version meaning that it isn't just a downscaled DX11 feature.
Taking all of this in account, none of it is connecting. There is so much contradiction from the devs down. I want to know what is fact, what is fiction, and what is most probable.
We have info that Latte is a custom chip with its own custom API(called GX2). It would make no sense for them to just rebrand a standard API like DX10 or DX10.1. for it to be custom made their must be customizations to it.
Given all of this info, I believe that Latte does contain DX11(not simply DX10 or 10.1) implementations of at least some features in its API, or their OpenGL equivalent.
I am not nor have I ever claimed that it is a fully DX11 compliant GPU as that is next to impossible(same with DX10 for that matter) do to it being a Microsft ATI. Customization seems to be the key that everyone is factoring out when discussing Latte's capabilities. From BG's and Fourth's analysis, Latte seems to have components on it that range from the HD4000 to HD6000 series. I'm not stating anything is certain, but I'm not writing off any possibilities either other than Latte having Direct X explicitly of course.
My point about SM4.0 was that no rv700 supported it.*** So the assumption that 'because Latte is based on an rv700 it can't have equivalent dx11 features' doesn't hold water - as that same base GPU doesn't support SM4.0 either.....while Latte supposedly does. So Nintendo have evidently changed some things. Again, I'm not arguing your conclusion at all, just your certainty of it. Let's leave some doors a-jar
And I was referring to your comparison of Latte having those hardware capabilities (or equivalent) to PS4 having "sun destroying missiles". That would be slightly more outlandish
***Edit. I'm reading the rv700 docs wrong, my bad. Ignore the first paragraph.
lightchris
Member
Huh? All R700's support SM4.1.
phosphor112
Banned
Being DX10.1 doesn't really limit it much. DX11 is extremely similar to DX10 and 10.1. So, 10.1 can still pull off 11 features, just not as well. Biggest example, probably is tessellation.
I actually already corrected myself in regards to your first half of your first question, and I have already attempted to explain the difference between a software API And the hardware features that said software API is trying to abstract away as well, but I will try again either way, the reason it has to do with DX11 is because it has to do with what hardware requirements DX11/OGL4.4/Whatever has, this has been the argument in the thread for a while has it not?
You have some things the wrong way around DX abstracts and exposes the hardware to the programmer there would be nothing DX specific in the hardware that you couldn't expose with another API, DX levels are just a nice way of trying to workout what hardware featureset a card has.
frankie_baby
Member
nm. didn't read everything
Can Crusher
Banned
Why is it so hard to comprehend that Edram running at 1TB/sec isn't nearly the same as the Edram on either the Xbox One or the Wii U? We're talking about a 1Tb/sec vs 200 ~Gb/sec at most.
This is way off topic so I apologize in advance but your word choice here for the joke is really interesting...maybe even intentional? If you recall back when PS2 was releasing Sony seeded a rumor that the PS2 might not launch in the US because it was so powerful you could launch missiles from it. The ploy worked and over night every kid and teenager wanted the incredibly powerful, international-ban-worthy PS2
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/stories/s119754.htm
I wouldn't rule out the sun exploding missile!
Also, freezamite, your posts lately in this thread have been really good and really interesting. I'm learning a lot here and so can't debate on a technical level. But wanted to say thanks for adding your ideas to the discussion etc. Quoting a snippet so you'll see my compliment
Going back to lurking mode
Lolninjacatz
Neo Member
Did they really say that? I was under the impression that Nomura stated that the target development was on DX11, and that any platform that could represent their vision of the game would be considered. The media outlets interpreted that as it not coming to the Wii U.
I think this is the specific response: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IpzjiMPhNBU#t=3135
Now this is the type of unfounded comment that makes problems.
Please explain how the Wii U lacks the horsepower to use the more advanced dx11 features, and where was it using the DX10 features set confirmed? If this was confirmed by any means, then there should be no difficulty in showing where it was done.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
And brings us back around to "It might have a comparable featureset to PS4/One but nowhere near the brute capability to put it to good use." I mean if it has tessellation units comparable to PS4/One it likely doesn't have the poly crunching capability to put it to good use.
On a lighter note I was adopted by a wild kitten yesterday. It climbed up through my basement and started eating at Northstars food dish. Doesn't want me to touch him unless protected by Northstar but will rub against my leg if I hide my hands. Once he sees my hands though that kitten runs.
I've been calling him little one for two months now. Laying food outside for him. But he followed Northstar through the basement and has been inside pretty consistently. Decided I'd name him little Juan.
JordanN
Banned
Oh god, who started this secret sauce nonsense? It wasn't right the first time where the Xbox One was suppose to have 2x GPU's, it was never right again. Seriously, can we drop it. The idea there's actually "secret" power in a console sounds so silly.
It's the best visuals that can be achieved now and into the foreseeable future. So games like Crysis 3, Ryse, Killzone SF and other games down the line that are clearly above everyone else in power.MDX said:
I don't really care about the special effects. It's always been possible to approximate effects on lesser hardware. However, that doesn't make the likes of 3DS the "greatest" in 2013 because there are other games on more platforms way more technical than it despite it supporting normal maps for example.
phosphor112
Banned
Cute. If you have another cat, make sure that kitten doesn't have feline AIDS.
It can transmit between cats easily.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
It'd be way too late for that. I can't keep my cats inside this house because of just how old and decrepit this house is. Barely has a foundation and has many open spots between inside and out. I'll do my due diligence when the kitten lets me pick him up. Which should be any time in the next few weeks, but little Juan has been hanging around Northstar for almost two months now.
I gave up on keeping the cats in. Block up holes in the foundation, block up the basement, they just find another way out. I'd have to have a good chunk of this shithole remade before it'd be possible to keep my cats inside. If little Juan has FIV then Northstar would too at this point, in which case they'll die. Tragic, very sad, but to a degree unavoidable.
I have no doubt if someone actually inspected this house it'd be condemned just based on its foundation. Not even thinking about the roof. Best I can do is get them their shots and hope for the best.
JordanN
Banned
Something else that has me concerned that Wii U wasn't intended to be DX11 is the lack of developer commitment.
Wii U was first unveiled in 2011. Literally 2 years ahead of the PS4/XBO. You're telling me NO ONE in the industry would have heard about this or attempted to try something on it until now?
Nintendo's communications or outreach would have to be so bad or, the tech in it wasn't much different to the PS3/360 to pull off anything good. Or what I've been trying to say from the last page.
Nintendo is following a philosophy similar to the Wii and lateral thinking which was to use extremely outdated hardware (in this case, the R700) and focus more resources on selling the gamepad.
Wii U was first unveiled in 2011. Literally 2 years ahead of the PS4/XBO. You're telling me NO ONE in the industry would have heard about this or attempted to try something on it until now?
Nintendo's communications or outreach would have to be so bad or, the tech in it wasn't much different to the PS3/360 to pull off anything good. Or what I've been trying to say from the last page.
Nintendo is following a philosophy similar to the Wii and lateral thinking which was to use extremely outdated hardware (in this case, the R700) and focus more resources on selling the gamepad.
Agree the whole discussion is moot at this point. Its has been beaten to death for teh past year.
Love for some new info to come out but looks unlikely. Crazy we know more about ps4/xbone than wiiu.
Its seem the main performance goal of the wiiu is to be xbox 360+ without breaking BC. That is what they did.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
While using a fraction of the wattage.
It really is impressive in its own right. Just not the kind of impressive to turn heads.
Just done the part of Rayman Legends where the creatures swarm and it does indeed look like they've nerfed the amount of enemies to suit the weaker hardware of the PS3 and 360...unless there's a similar level on the final stage with more enemies in it..?
Haven't had a chance to check out the light sources either (cos I'm too busy running for my life lol) but I don't think each individual creature acts as a light source like they were in that screenshot released last year showing well over a hundred of them before they decided to make it multiplatform.
(
Haven't had a chance to check out the light sources either (cos I'm too busy running for my life lol) but I don't think each individual creature acts as a light source like they were in that screenshot released last year showing well over a hundred of them before they decided to make it multiplatform.
(francisnobleman
Banned
why is it so damn expensive to manufacture then ?
Jack Cayman
Banned
It is not the same as the S3 Graphics compression the GameCube used, the texture compression that nintendo invented with S3 is exclusive to Nintendo hardware. The S3TC that was implemented on the DirectX6 was for Windows not the original Xbox which was using a custom firmware and API created in collaboration with NVidia and Microsoft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_(console)
DirectX 8.0a 4.08.00.0400 (RC14) Last supported version for Windows 95 February 5, 2001
DirectX 8.1 4.08.01.0810 Windows XP, Windows XP SP1, Windows Server 2003 and Xbox exclusive October 25, 2001
4.08.01.0881 (RC7) This version is for the down level operating systems
(Windows 98, Windows Me and Windows 2000)
Which is not clear what API where available on the original Xbox because it was custom made. If S3TC that GameCube used was available in DirectX6 in windows so it would be available on Dreamcast, which is not, as well and I am very certain that the Dreamcast was using a custom Windows firmware CE2000.
DirectX 6.0 4.06.00.0318 (RC3) Windows CE as implemented on Dreamcast August 7, 1998
maybe the original Xbox was using some kind of S3TC but nowhere as efficiently as the GameCube because Xbox GPU had other priorities. Plus the memory of the GameCube was more efficient producing double the amount of fillrate data than the Xbox.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX
So GameCube was built to take advantage of it's powers.
So if the original Xbox had S3TC why the GPU had to do extra compression and decompression therefore hitting the performance of the framebuffer?
That's why it is not clear if the Xbox had the same S3TC technology as the GameCube but a different approach on the matter.
http://segatech.com/technical/consolecompare2/
Anyway that is not the point. The point is that latte is not yet put to the test by take advantage of the GPGPU features, the differences in power would be visible on multiplatform titles that would hit the 3 consoles(ps4,Xbox one, WiiU) at the same time.
I am trying to find a good VCC that supports 1080p resolution at 60fps. I was looking for the digital foundry equipment AND THE FUNNY part is that THEY DO NOT write WHAT equipment they are using so at least buy the same stuff to make the same comparison. All the cards that I find here in my country is at 720p in 60fps and 1080i 30fps. So if I am going to make an investment for my personal use I am going to buy the best value for my money. My friend's capture card is at 720p max so if I post something like that it would be stupid and immoral from my part so be a little more patient, I have not forgotten you.
That is exactly my point WE DO NOT KNOW the bandwidth the eDRAM the Wii U is producing. Maybe it 100 or 150 or 200 or 1000Gb/s for all I know that's why we need to see MORE games not judging early ports for god sake. Some of the posters here do not want to find the reality about the latte rather than bash Wii U as a shitty, low tech console. Myself wants only to see what the machine is capable of, not make console wars or graphics contests so that I would vindicated on my purchase for strongest console.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
There actually is a curve. At a point it becomes more expensive to alter an older part than it is to use newer. At the same time Nintendo had a very restrictive TDP in mind for the platform. That too would have increased the cost of manufacturing.
JordanN
Banned
Well I'm not an expert but I do know it's built on the 40nm process so I wouldn't equate it with being new.
Edit: As for the actual costs, I have no idea.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Every NV starting from NV20 up had full S3TC lineup support (http://ixbtlabs.com/articles/nv20/). Also, PS2's GS had support for CLUT4 & 8 texture compression (4/8bit texel indexing into a lookup table), which is a form of texture compression, albeit rudimentary.
IIRC, DXTC1 through 5 were not mandatory in DX6, but they were (the entire set or thereabout) in DX8.
Every AMD design since R800 has been DX11-compliant.
Actually, Nintendo started customizing its GPU with the latest available tech at the time when they started getting serious into building the thing.
As far as I'm aware, 40nm is still cheaper than 28nm. There are lots of reasons why the Wii U is expensive to produce. That the PS360 are still over $200 in over 7 years of being on the market should tell you something other than "they want to make xtreme profits!!11!". That it's small and produces what will end up being slightly better than last gen output should be a big clue. So should the more expensive controller.
JordanN
Banned
And that was...?
And why no games actually look like it?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Latest available with a power threshold they wanted of course. Still amazes me what they've achieved using so little electricity, and a mature die size. Capability in excess of 360/PS3 while using a fraction of the power and a very simple cooling system.
It might not impress the hardcore power gamer but I find it a beautiful little design.
Can Crusher
Banned
It would be impressive if they were selling it for 200$.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
An impressive design is an impressive design no matter what a company charges for it.
There is so much offtopic Nintendo bashing and congratulatory chest bombing on this page that it's just pitiful.
Finally, someone else notices it besides me. That is why this topic can't progress right. The moment we start to uncover any features or make headway on the capabilities, it gets gangblocked by people who act as if the possibility that others might start thinking the Wii U is more capable than its launch ports demonstrated causes them physical injury.
I've seen at least 3 purely antagonistic claims made with certainty about the hardware on the last 2 page that are completely unfounded. No one called them out for it at all, but I make the slightest positive suggestion as a "maybe" and I get gang bashed.
The only fact we know about the GPU is that its custom built and we know the eDram size, yet here have people talking about unfounded confounded confirmations. Its make no sense that people who dislike this hardware so much are so omnipresent in topics about it.
As for the compression that the GC used. Wasn't it G3 compression?
Finally, someone else notices it besides me. That is why this topic can't progress right. The moment we start to uncover any features or make headway on the capabilities, it gets gangblocked by people who act as if the possibility that others might start thinking the Wii U is more capable than its launch ports demonstrated causes them physical injury.
I've seen at least 3 purely antagonistic claims made with certainty about the hardware on the last 2 page that are completely unfounded. No one called them out for it at all, but I make the slightest positive suggestion as a "maybe" and I get gang bashed.
The only fact we know about the GPU is that its custom built and we know the eDram size, yet here have people talking about unfounded confounded confirmations. Its make no sense that people who dislike this hardware so much are so omnipresent in topics about it.
As for the compression that the GC used. Wasn't it G3 compression?
Well if it wasn't for the gamepad I'm sure it would be very close to that price.
But really do not understand why it cost so much at launch.
We don't know that for a fact. There's still over a third of the silicone that we don't have a Scooby Doo about. We know that Nintendo were working closely with the likes of Crytek and other engine creators...who knows..? It's quite possible that Nintendo have evolved the TEV Unit so that Latte can have the best of both worlds that Flipper and Hollywood didn't have - a fixed function system that gives the Wii U a standard rendering pipeline, making porting between the PS3/360/Wii U and PS4/One/Wii U possible.
Nintendo know that the nonstandard rendering pipeline of the Wii was more of a problem for developers and publishers than the Wii's lack of power. Treyarch bringing Modern Warfare to the Wii - despite Infinity Ward saying it was impossible - is proof that the Wii was capable of running your average PS3/360 game without much of a problem.
I've always wondered what would have happened last gen if Nintendo had ditched backwards compatibility last gen and chosen a GPU with traditional programmable shaders and kept other components as they were - we may have seen scaled down ports of all major third party titles including the likes of Dead Space, Bioshock, Fallout 3 etc etc. You'd have jaggies up the wazoo, much poorer textures, much longer loading times, pop-in etc but we may have seen it happening.
megabytecr
Member
Yes, the EDRAM bandwidth is a mystery. Also if going by some dev comments on the XB1 (will try to look for it I read it here on GAF), it seems devs don't like the ways around using the 32mb of ESRAM (XB1) properly. In this particular mention they were complimenting the PS4 direct access/high bandwidth.
So given the above and given the WiiU has a similar setup with 32MB of EDRAM, plus low port budgets, small teams, new tools, IMO it is almost a given the EDRAM was not used properly on the ports. Add to this the CPU troubles, I find amazing how the ports even ran decently.
I also find interesting what is going on on the other games for the new consoles. Another downgrade was informed, Ryse is 900p native and not 1080p. I find this interesting to put the latest Wii U games performance in context of their rivals, as a lot of 720p60 games on this low powered console seem even more amazing to me. The Wii U is capable of handling some games at 1080p, but going by Shinen, it is not worth it, as going 720p they can add more effects. Maybe with more optimizations this could change, but for now I still believe this is an excellent 720p machine.
So given the above and given the WiiU has a similar setup with 32MB of EDRAM, plus low port budgets, small teams, new tools, IMO it is almost a given the EDRAM was not used properly on the ports. Add to this the CPU troubles, I find amazing how the ports even ran decently.
I also find interesting what is going on on the other games for the new consoles. Another downgrade was informed, Ryse is 900p native and not 1080p. I find this interesting to put the latest Wii U games performance in context of their rivals, as a lot of 720p60 games on this low powered console seem even more amazing to me. The Wii U is capable of handling some games at 1080p, but going by Shinen, it is not worth it, as going 720p they can add more effects. Maybe with more optimizations this could change, but for now I still believe this is an excellent 720p machine.
I don't know why but for some reason I just read that word as 'squirrel' lmfao
I don't remember the exact words, but I think the better description for wii u was already made in this thread ... a current gen machine refined or the perfect current gen machine. Not more not less (speaking about performance). Obviosly with almost "current" tech. Basically what stevieP said.
Of course i think someone won't agree ...
Of course i think someone won't agree ...
JordanN
Banned
Coincidentally, Wii U's memory is the same as the Xbox 360 dev kit (1GB).
Edit: My mistake. I thought all the new ones did.
lyrick
Member
Unfortunately that definition would limit the Wii U to a DirectX 9 like feature set which does the console great injustice.
Also I'm pretty certain the Wii U has 2GB of Memory, in the same vein that that the PS4/Xbox One both have 8GB of Memory
He said current tech. It has an improved feature set, in other words, over 7th gen. He was speaking of power (as in, raw power) when talking about a "perfected" 7th gen console.
JordanN
Banned
That's not for games.
Nor is 8gb for games on PS4One. Approx 5gb is for games
lyrick
Member
And what is GAF using as a power baseline nowadays?
Gamecubes?
I've seen Floating Points Operations, Memory Bandwidth, Power Supply TDP, and all sorts of discrete measurements and estimates tossed around in this thread for quite some time. I've been a Software Engineer (Business software not entertainment software) for roughly 7 years, and back in the day I took all sorts of Computer Organization courses and still putz around on my FPGAs (in Verilog) when I have the urge.
Unfortunately all of those metrics really tell us very little about what kind of Games the GPU will be able to spit out. We don't have a good example of what 50, 250, 500, 1000 or a 1500 GFlop game looks like or what a a 33, 48, or 100W TDP would enable.
Where is is thread heading?
What will actually help us get there?
frankie_baby
Member
And Wii u dev kits have 3gb, not getting what your point is anyway
frankie_baby
Member
Jaguars
I agree! Good to see you posting again.
Thanks!!
megabytecr
Member
I also agree somewhat. I think the 32MB of EDRAM has not been fully put to good use.
The RAM is 2x PS360, but the EDRAM is 3 times that of X360 (same amount of ESRAM as XB1) plus the focus on so much caches.
phosphor112
Banned
www.amazon.com/AVERMEDIA-Broadcaster-capture-1080p60-Component/dp/B006T8QCYA/
Why not just trust the images from Eurogamer?
Here... look.
Look. It's the same. You take the resolution of the screengrab. Find an aliased line. Count the "steps" and see how many pixels that steps equals.
As you can see there are 12 steps and within those 12 steps, it moves vertically 12 pixels.
1080 / 12 steps. Then multiply that by how many pixels..
1080 / 12 x 12 = 1080.
360 is native 1080 just as is the Wii U version.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-rayman-legends-face-off
Link for the source images.
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