Yes it should have made it automatically. I assume it is used for the refresh/restore feature now, since it has been increased to 350mb. I'd not skip over it.
Windows 8 Release Preview
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Yes it should have made it automatically. I assume it is used for the refresh/restore feature now, since it has been increased to 350mb. I'd not skip over it.
LukasTaves
Member
Why? both WinRT and W8 share the same set of apis in metro (Namely WinRT)... The whole development point of metro is to provide an cross platform environment where developers can write native code and run anywhere metro runs with a single compile.
You have to scale for performance. Other than that 100% of your code will run on both arm or x86... Unless you specifically want to provide a feature or implementation for only one architecture, even then you have to test which architecture you are on the code itself, you don't need to compile a x86 and a arm version of your app (even if its a high end dx11 game) and send both to Ms.
Native C/C++, managed C/C++, C# and javascript are all completely cross platform on Metro. You can even use native C++ plus DirectX on arm.
No, you send a single package, though, if you use C/C++ you will have to check some boxes to mark which architectures you will want your package to be compiled.
Since the developer has more control with c/c++ it's possible to implement a very architecture specific code that will only work on x86 and not provide an equivalent implementation for Arm or X86, so the developer has to choose which architectures they are supporting. But that's the developer's choice. You can also specify a package to a single (or more) architecture even if your code can run anywhere...
LukasTaves
Member
Please delete
D3RANG3D
Member
It didn't...
Wiktor
Member
Both traditional PC games aren't written in those apis... so how could any of them be put on Metro? Especially since ARM would never be able to run them properly.
That's what I'm wondering, can you just put x86-only app on marketplace, stating from the start WindowsRT won't be able to run it or woudl Microsoft certification process prohibit that
If you mean a win32 app then no it can't go in the marketplace. Well, it can be put in as a link to the place to purchase it. Any app distributed in the market must be WinRT
LukasTaves
Member
Ah, no you'd have to port the game from win32 to metro in order to be sold at the store and to run everywhere metro does. As for whether arm would be able to run or not, directX on windows 8/metro is all about scaling performance. You can detect and test all the features the device supports and adjust your game accordingly. Ms has some nice talks showing how can the devs target a certain framerate and guarantee that the app will always run at that framerate with the best possible quality the hardware can handle.
You can have a win32 app listed in the store, but will only be a web page where you can read other user's opinions about the app and a download link to download the installer.
It's completely up to the developer. It's very easy to make apps that are cross-compatible between architectures, but by no means is it a requirement.
With or without compiling two versions?
RukusProvider
Banned
If you use the app templates, it's incredibly easy to make ARM work automatically. Javascript, C++, C#, etc. should all work this way.
Even if you're using DirectX that's true: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Fo...x/thread/e4d12c24-4072-4bb4-9772-0ed1a090f7dd
There's a good bit of info on the MSDN site for Windows 8 if you just do a search: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Search/en-US/windows/apps?query=arm&Refinement=180&ac=8
Now, the problem is that there is no actual emulator for ARM. In order to test ARM apps (which is required to submit ARM apps, I believe), you need to actually have an ARM device available to you.
The way that works is that you configure Visual Studio to remote desktop into an ARM device, so you can remote debug and all that other stuff automatically and simultaneously with x86.
Wiktor
Member
Ok, thanks for info. So I guess the only games on the marketplace will be mobile-like? I wonder what it means to future MS PC games, if there will be any at all, like ports from Xbox3
I'm not sure how you drew that conclusion? Like multiple people here have said, a Windows 8 app in the store can literally be anything, and target any (or all) architectures. If an existing Windows developer wants to put the work into converting his current game into using the WinRT app platform, there's nothing stopping him from doing so.
Would you consider Toy Soldiers and Ms. Splosion Man to be "mobile-like"?
http://www.theverge.com/microsoft/2012/2/7/2781821/windows-8-app-store-first-games
Metroid Hunter
Banned
My most favourite operating system is Windows 7 (Mac OS X Lion comes second).
I can get Windows 8 Professional for free from my university for my MacBook Air (already have Windows 7 on Boot Camp), and get the cheap $30 offer for my PC (also running Windows 7).
Is it worth the upgrade? None of these computers are touch screen, and I just love Windows 7 and really need the task bar.
I can get Windows 8 Professional for free from my university for my MacBook Air (already have Windows 7 on Boot Camp), and get the cheap $30 offer for my PC (also running Windows 7).
Is it worth the upgrade? None of these computers are touch screen, and I just love Windows 7 and really need the task bar.
The taskbar isn't going anywhere...
Jzero
Member
it's really up to you to see if it's worth the upgrade. I think it's definitely worth the upgrade but a lot of people disagree. You have to try it out for yourself.
Wiktor
Member
Yeah, I definitly do, altough that's not comment against their quality.
I just don't see devs making all the effort into converting their regular games, especially since ARM devices will be too weak to run them and on x86 Windows 8 it would be kind of waste of resources, since it will be possible to run traditional desktop apps anyway.
So far it looks metro gaming will be just mobile-like games and occassional XBLA port. I would MS to step up and return to how they were in late 90s/early 00s, but I've given up hope about Microsoft ever again becoming big player in pc games production.
I'm guessing the games he's referring to are large budget (i.e. not something that would pop up on xbox live arcade) ones, and he's probably right, at least for a few months. Interested to see how this all ties to the next xbox, though I have no interest in paying for live anymore.
Yeah I get that. To me "mobile-like" implies simplified gameplay more suitable to touch screens, which many of those listed games most definitely aren't.
I'm simply saying that there's no limit to what kind of game you can make and release on the store. Maybe developers will choose to release smaller games rather than big-budget blockbusters, but if someone wanted to release something like that on the store, there's nothing stopping them.
I'm simply saying that there's no limit to what kind of game you can make and release on the store. Maybe developers will choose to release smaller games rather than big-budget blockbusters, but if someone wanted to release something like that on the store, there's nothing stopping them.
What specific type of game are you looking for?
Wiktor
Member
Simulators, complex strategies, shooters, MMORPGs, adventure games, full blown racing games..simply typical big pc games that get thrown in to retail boxes.
What I see in metro store is bassicaly mobile games and XBLA ports. Of course it does make sense, as those are the simpliest and least demanding ones, as well as their touch-controls friendiness, which is the main point of Metro. I mean, if you're making traditional pcgame it kind of doesn't make much sense to bother with porting to WinRT unless Microsoft pays you to.
I guess I'm tiny bit bitter here, because I love pcgaming and there's no company in the last decade who did more harm to it than Microsoft. Which is sad for a company that for the two previous decades did more good to pcgaming than anyone else around. As a plus side, they at least stopped treating pcgamers like morons, who will swallow any BS they throw at them, which is how various Microsoft reps acted just few years ago. Nowadays it seems the message MS has is "we don't care about pcgaming directly, what we do is just provide tools for companies who do", which is fine by me.
I don't think we'll see the big-bidget games, either, with them not being touch-enabled and having relatively high hardware requirements.
But from a business perspective it might not be such a bad idea, since MS only takes 20% (after 25.000$) and not 30% or more like other stores. (that is if the porting isn't too costly)
But from a business perspective it might not be such a bad idea, since MS only takes 20% (after 25.000$) and not 30% or more like other stores. (that is if the porting isn't too costly)
brotkasten
Member
But all Metro apps have to work with touch, no? So which version of CoD will Windows 8 get in 5 years? The console version or the Vita version?
LukasTaves
Member
There was one presentation about games on those slides posted earlier where Ms said that touch was important but didn't actually state it was a requirement, but other than that i really don't know.
The bright side is that the same presentation did state that metro games can detect if the user has keyboard+mouse or the 360's controller connected and use only them...
So if the developer wants it potentially can have a game with sloppy touch controls that plays greatly when use keybard/mouse or a controller.
Edit: There are some limitations to AAA games on metro, though... The maximum app size is 2GB, and will probably stay that way until we have some devices coming with 128GB flash memory as minimum... There are also the 4 corners that the system uses: A top view game couldn't use any of them to pan the screen while on mouse (doesn't sound much of a gamebreaker at first, but there are a few games where this is pratically essential)...
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
At first I was thinking that none of the big companies would want to give MS 20% of their game profits but then I realized that (unless I'm mistaken) MS already makes $10 of each Xbox 360 game sold which from a $60 game is approx 16%. So factoring in the extra money going to the stores and manufacturing of discs I think if you sold the game for $60 on the marketplace you'd probably still make more than you do shipping a physical disc for a console.
What % does Valve get from Steam sales?
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Yeah, I was just thinking about that after I posted. I have no idea.
Wiktor
Member
30% AFAIR. The bigger problem with Metro store is that you can't just put your game there, instead quite a bit of porting will be required. And unless you're making ARM/x86 crossplatform title, it might just not be worth it compared to alternatives
brotkasten
Member
I think it's 30%, just like every other DD store.
You're acting like somethings worse here though, which is what I don't get. If anything, it's better.
Every single game of the type you describe works on Windows 7, and will continue to work and be explicitly designed and released for Windows 8 on the Desktop. Steam will still work. Developers will continue to use Steamworks.
Some developers will even choose to release those exact same types of games on the Windows Store. Nothing's stopping them from doing so. It'll undoubtedly be on Steam too, giving you options of where to buy them.
But in addition to all that, you'll be getting some table-like and XBLA-like games that are currently exclusive to 360, or timed-exclusives on 360. Games published by Microsoft that Microsoft previously chose not to release on PC, or had a release on PC delayed by months and months.
Yeah, it would be great if Microsoft themselves got into "harder-core" games again like they used to be, but I don't see why that would be expected at this point, and Windows 8 certainly isn't any worse than Windows 7 in that regard.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Halo 4, sold exclusively on PC in the Windows 8 store.
See, even that would be an improvement from Windows 7 considering that most of the Halo games never even came out on PC
Wiktor
Member
Oh, I'm glad for that. I optimistically think this will increase the ammount of ports from mobile and XBLA, while keeping the ammount of typical PC releases unchanged.\
Of course, at the same time I'm afraid the ultimate goal might be to go metro only in the far future, turning whole Windows into a system where the only way to get software is throught Microsoft store. Altough I don't think users would allow it. At least I hope so.
I somehow doubt W8 will stop Microsoft XBLA division from being assholes about games that are avaible on other platforms. So I expect the delays to happen anyway, at least for games Microsoft themselves publishes on XBLA.
Yeah, there isn't any reason to expect real support from PC gaming from Microsoft again. Which is sad, but it is how it is and I don't think anyone can realistically expect anything to change.
As discussed above, with the size restrictions for apps on the store and the hardware limitations of the tablets regular big-budget titles aren't really possible. However, that makes those devices ideal candidates for services such as OnLive, where you need neither the storage space nor the hardware power. In-app purchases aren't restricted either (unlike on iOS).
Apart from touch controls, porting wouldn't be an issue, either.
Apart from touch controls, porting wouldn't be an issue, either.
The simple way around size restrictions is having an in-game downloader, same method used whenever restrictions like that are placed. And this is still Windows, so things can be installed to external HDDs.
bigtroyjon
Member
Microsoft announced at it's World Partner Conference today that it bought Perceptive Pixel. Company that makes big multitouch displays, most of the various news networks use them.
Basically they are going to push them to OEMs to make Windows 8 PC's better by having better touchscreens for all in ones or having kick ass huge displays. I guess Ballmer has been running Windows 8 on an 82 inch touchscreen in his office.
Basically they are going to push them to OEMs to make Windows 8 PC's better by having better touchscreens for all in ones or having kick ass huge displays. I guess Ballmer has been running Windows 8 on an 82 inch touchscreen in his office.
Is there any reason to check out metro Chrome if I'm not on a touch device?
Jzero
Member
I mean it's pretty much the same thing so probably not and it's not very stable yet. A lot of my apps don't work right in the metro version.
Installed the Release Preview on my MBP, finally.
Wow. What an improvement. Metro apps run flawlessly now (The entire Metro environment ran like garbage in the Consumer Preview).
The trackpad wasn't working fully - no gestures. But with gestures, wow this would be a great OS for laptops (Assuming manufacturers can make a trackpad like Apples that is not complete and utter trash). Gestures would solve many, many of the clunky-ness problems posed by the mouse.
Which leads me to the big problem: The desktop experience. Still flawed, especially with a mouse. I know they will be redoing the style of the desktop, but the complete lack of integration between Metro and the Start Screen is a very big problem, especially on my 25" monitor. On such a large screen, the experience should center around the desktop. Tablets should be Start Screen only. Laptops should be whatever the user prefers. That is probably the biggest issue with Windows 8, and unfortunately it is a significant one. Really, from day one that has been the big issue.
They won't solve it with Windows 8, but hopefully Windows 9 does better. But the desktop must stay. Metro on my monitor is pretty dumb, and multitasking effectively is damn near impossible. The desktop remains the best computing experience on a large screen, even if on smaller screens, Metro shows some superiority.
Wow. What an improvement. Metro apps run flawlessly now (The entire Metro environment ran like garbage in the Consumer Preview).
The trackpad wasn't working fully - no gestures. But with gestures, wow this would be a great OS for laptops (Assuming manufacturers can make a trackpad like Apples that is not complete and utter trash). Gestures would solve many, many of the clunky-ness problems posed by the mouse.
Which leads me to the big problem: The desktop experience. Still flawed, especially with a mouse. I know they will be redoing the style of the desktop, but the complete lack of integration between Metro and the Start Screen is a very big problem, especially on my 25" monitor. On such a large screen, the experience should center around the desktop. Tablets should be Start Screen only. Laptops should be whatever the user prefers. That is probably the biggest issue with Windows 8, and unfortunately it is a significant one. Really, from day one that has been the big issue.
They won't solve it with Windows 8, but hopefully Windows 9 does better. But the desktop must stay. Metro on my monitor is pretty dumb, and multitasking effectively is damn near impossible. The desktop remains the best computing experience on a large screen, even if on smaller screens, Metro shows some superiority.
If you use the app templates, it's incredibly easy to make ARM work automatically. Javascript, C++, C#, etc. should all work this way.
Even if you're using DirectX that's true: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Fo...x/thread/e4d12c24-4072-4bb4-9772-0ed1a090f7dd
There's a good bit of info on the MSDN site for Windows 8 if you just do a search: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Search/en-US/windows/apps?query=arm&Refinement=180&ac=8
Now, the problem is that there is no actual emulator for ARM. In order to test ARM apps (which is required to submit ARM apps, I believe), you need to actually have an ARM device available to you.
The way that works is that you configure Visual Studio to remote desktop into an ARM device, so you can remote debug and all that other stuff automatically and simultaneously with x86.
ugh , it be so nice when atom dies off so we can just get x64 developed apps instead of still having to deal with x86
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2012/07/10/protecting-user-files-with-file-history.aspx
Looks like Microsoft now has its own Time Machine called File History.
Looks like Microsoft now has its own Time Machine called File History.
Erm, does that work in Windows RT?
They already had similar functionality for a long time.
http://www.winsupersite.com/article/windows8/windows-8-feature-focus-file-history-142602
Since it's part of the desktop, I suspect that it does.
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