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[memoryman3]

Best we can say is that it is more PC-like with the multiple stores, but it is still a locked down console. Some people tend to be extremely polar with this shit and that really doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

You can't really lock the console down if it has multiple PC storefronts. Maybe outside not being able to install other operating systems like Linux.

Jez (near 100% track record on Windows Central rumors) states that you can run Photoshop on the new Xbox. That tells me all I need to know about how this will work.

 

[MisterXDTV]

And the Magnus Console will have GDKX created and fixed spec optimized games.

LOL

That's up to developers, it's not something that MS can decide except for the games they own.....

No third-party developer will optimize for a ultra-niche device that sells like shit, that also runs PC games by default

The juice is not worth the squeeze

You run the PC version, adjust the settings and that's it....

 

[Topher]

You can't really lock the console down if it has multiple PC storefronts. Maybe outside not being able to install other operating systems like Linux.

Of course you can. It is an app. Microsoft dictates what apps can be installed. Just because GOG or Steam is allowed doesn't mean the user has free reign to install whatever the hell they want. Either way, I don't get these narratives as if Microsoft isn't in full control of the operating system and can decide exactly what it can and can't do.

Jez (near 100% track record on Windows Central rumors) states that you can run Photoshop on the new Xbox. That tells me all I need to know about how this will work.

Jez is saying it is a full-fledge Windows PC. That's at odds with what others are saying that there is a "locked down" console and then there are the OEM PCs running the same hardware.

I'm just going to laugh off that "100% track record". He may or may not be right here, but his track record is spotty at best.

 

[memoryman3]

Of course you can. It is an app. Microsoft dictates what apps can be installed. Just because GOG or Steam is allowed doesn't mean the user has free reign to install whatever the hell they want. Either way, I don't get these narratives as if Microsoft isn't in full control of the operating system and can decide exactly what it can and can't do.

GOG/Steam/Epic storefront games were not designed for a locked down operating system. On closed ecosystem consoles, every app needs to go through a rigorous certification process to ensure they interact properly with the user experience. Steam and the like allow games that demand you open the File Explorer to progress. If there are restrictions, then why even allow other stores besides the Windows Store? The Microsoft product would just be an inferior product versus the other PCs in that case.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Of course you can. It is an app. Microsoft dictates what apps can be installed. Just because GOG or Steam is allowed doesn't mean the user has free reign to install whatever the hell they want. Either way, I don't get these narratives as if Microsoft isn't in full control of the operating system and can decide exactly what it can and can't do.

People were able to port emulators on the much more locked Xbox One and Series consoles that don't even run PC code...

A device with full PC Windows on it would be hacked in no-time to run just about any app you can imagine...

 

[viveks86]

And the Magnus Console will have GDKX created and fixed spec optimized games.

There was a Tobimacoss-sized hole in this thread. Welcome!

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Which is 360 and og xbox games. Or that BC doesn't count?

Those games only work on Xbox1/series X because Microsoft wrote essentially an emulator for each game.

So anything that runs series on Series X or S is on an engineering level Series X/S software.

So, in short, yes, they'll work if they currently do. If a game isn't currently supported, it won't work, most likely because the original publisher wouldn't allow it.

 

[Topher]

GOG/Steam/Epic storefront games were not designed for a locked down operating system. On closed ecosystem consoles, every app needs to go through a rigorous certification process to ensure they interact properly with the user experience. If there are restrictions, then why even allow other stores besides the Windows Store?

Those stores were not designed to run on Linux either and yet they do. Whether these games are certified or not is up to Microsoft. These are not technical roadblocks.

As to the "why?". Good question.

People were able to port Emulators on the much more locked Xbox One and Series consoles that don't even run PC code...

A device with full PC Windows on it would be hacked in no-time to run just about any app you can imagine...

And then MS shut those emulators down. Good example of how MS decides what can and can't run on a closed system. But if it is full Windows PC then they won't have to hack anything. It will already be open.

 

[MisterXDTV]

And then MS shut those emulators down. Good example of how MS decides what can and can't run on a closed system. But if it is full Windows PC then they won't have to hack anything. It will already be open.

They didn't shut anything....

You just reboot the console in dev mode and they are working just fine TODAY

LOL

 

[Topher]

They didn't shut anything....

You just reboot the console in dev mode and they are working just fine TODAY

LOL

Yeah? Thought I read they did. Ok then. They could if they wanted to and that's the larger point.

 

[adamsapple]

Yeah? Thought I read they did. Ok then. They could if they wanted to and that's the larger point.

People were able to get emulators working on regular retail mode and put emulators on the regular Win store which allowed emulators and videos to be uploaded to XBL, that's what got that retail mode shut down.

Dev mode remains unaffected.

 

[Topher]

People were able to get emulators working on regular retail mode and put emulators on the regular Win store which allowed emulators and videos to be uploaded to XBL, that's what got that retail mode shut down.

Dev mode remains unaffected.

Fair enough. Point remains, if MS wanted to shut this down completely they could.

 

[MisterXDTV]

If MS wanted to shut this down completely they could.

Just like they tried shutting down my 2016 PC, as it couldn't run Windows 11 because my CPU was too old...

Guess what, I'm typing this on that PC running Windows 11

The moment people get the device and it runs Windows 11 PC code, good luck trying to lock down running PC software....

 

[memoryman3]

Those stores were not designed to run on Linux either and yet they do. Whether these games are certified or not is up to Microsoft. These are not technical roadblocks.

SteamOS still allows full file access for these games to work.

 

[Tobimacoss]

The word 'curated' from Microsoft makes it sound like it will be select titles that will developed specifically for the hardware though. My guess is 1st party and other select big 3rd party games that they would want to have run well. Otherwise it will be PC version available.

I mean in theory this could be a very nice "do everything" device...

Curated is about the experience, not the games. MS would have to update developer documentation 12-18 months before hardware release.

As things stand now, the documentations requires the use of GDKX for Xbox Console SKUs.

Game Development Kit (GDK) documentation - Microsoft Game Development Kit

Instruction on using the Game Development Kit (GDK)

learn.microsoft.com

It's simple:

GDK creates Xbox PC scalable SKUs that are run on PCs, Laptops, and Handhelds.
GDKX takes most of that code and creates a new SKU for Consoles that also are used on xCloud.

Play Anywhere licensing ties the both SKUs together.

Biggest variation between the GDKX version is how it makes use of the unified memory structure aka the GDDR7 vram.

In a perfect world, MS would prefer a fully unified ecosystem under one license. They want BOTH scalable PC versions and fixed spec optimized versions. All under one license. However, certain major publishers with their own PC storefronts prevent a fully unified ecosystem, primarily EA, Ubisoft, Rockstar. So MS would prioritize a fixed spec optimized version mainly due to two reasons. For xCloud, and the fact that PC games can break with any variant hardware in the future and dev or publisher may not be around to fix it.

When Nadella said, the Xbox Console was created to build a better PC, people made fun of him and misunderstood him. What he was referring to is the fact that Consoles get Fixed Spec Optimized code that can last for decades.

What MS is trying to do is create a baseline for the fixed spec hardware to be used for ALL three major PC ecosystems, Epic, Steam, Xbox. So devs from other stores can use the same hardware for optimizing their games toward. So it's not just about bringing PC games to consoles but bringing fixed spec optimizations to PC.
That's why I believe both Xbox PCs and Xbox Consoles running on Magnus will be able to run those GDKX versions.

You are right that the Optimizations are mainly required for AAA games. For indies, it could run the exact same GDK code. MS could have devs do what they do for the handhelds, use the GDK SKU and have presets for the fixed spec hardware, which is also what Epic and Steam versions via Windows SDK would be doing.

But that is optional, the Consoles are required to use the GDKX for guaranteed Optimized versions, otherwise that game wouldn't be certified to be published on Consoles xbox store.

My point is that MS is neither getting rid of GDKX SKUs, and neither getting rid of Play Anywhere. If they were, the documentation would change, next big GDK update is in April.

You can't really lock the console down if it has multiple PC storefronts. Maybe outside not being able to install other operating systems like Linux.

Jez (near 100% track record on Windows Central rumors) states that you can run Photoshop on the new Xbox. That tells me all I need to know about how this will work.

Sure you can lock down full windows, there is precedent with Windows 11 Home S mode or Windows 10X.

MS could do what Google is doing with Epic settlement for Android, allow registered and approved third party stores.

LOL

That's up to developers, it's not something that MS can decide except for the games they own.....

No third-party developer will optimize for a ultra-niche device that sells like shit, that also runs PC games by default

The juice is not worth the squeeze

You run the PC version, adjust the settings and that's it....

You are still not getting it, there's a difference between having a preset in a PC SKU vs having fixed spec optimized Console game SKU. Sure, you can run the PC version for Epic and Steam, that version may or may not be optimized for Magnus, but for the Xbox ecosystem, you don't get certified for Console store if you don't use the GDKX.

No Xbox Console store version would mean no chance of Gamepass money bag, no xCloud reach, no free MS marketing.

And you are assuming the device will be niche based on your bias. AMD and MS are trying to take over the entry level and midrange pre built PC market.

 

[Topher]

Just like they tried shutting down my 2016 PC, as it couldn't run Windows 11 because my CPU was too old...

Guess what, I'm typing this on that PC running Windows 11

The moment people get the device and it runs Windows 11 PC code, good luck trying to lock down running PC software....

Correct. As I said before, if it is running "full bore Windows 11" like Jez said then it is not locked down. We agree.

SteamOS still allows full file access for these games to work.

lol....you think Microsoft's own engineers don't have full access to the file system?

 

[Sgt.Asher]

So how much will copilot be shoved into this?

 

[Mayar]

So how much will copilot be shoved into this?

It will measure your pulse and blood pressure, as well as take blood, urine, and stool samples. This may seem scary at first glance. But for people Topher 's age, it's another plus.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

Day 1

 

[Neo_game]

even MLiD is calling it a console?

it sounds pretty nuts from what he says in this video

He is also guessing but he think it will be a windows gaming console with an option to run Steam. I do not understand why Steam is needed in an Xbox.

Eh....higher specs are not going to move the needle for Xbox. Maybe allowing Steam games will, but as they said in the video, it just means they have to make money on the hardware and that is going to make it expensive.

Yeah, it is trying to position it self some where between PS6 and pre built gaming PC.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

He is also guessing but he think it will be a windows gaming console with an option to run Steam. I do not understand why Steam is needed in an Xbox.

I have been on this bus for 2 years now, its going to run Steam

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Putting aside King mobile output. MS publishing is COD, Minecraft, WoW, Diablo, Overwatch, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Forza, Halo. T2 might take the crown for a year but over a 5 year period, it's likely MS publishing would remain #1.

Regarding the 24m GP idea. It's very clear they're semi-abandoning GP as their main focus. Without a platform GP just doesn't grow, GP subs are tied to Xbox HW purchases. It's clear GP doesn't have the growth ceiling they wanted. They're now going to be bet on game publishing and hope cloud works out for them. But they'll probably fuck that up too. It amazes me that Phil is still in his job.

COD sales are declining game-over-game. Diablo is a 12-15 million lifetime seller per entry. Same with Fallout; only Skyrim did more than 10 million for a Fallout entry.

What I'm getting at is, with the trend certain IP like COD have been exhibiting and the fact entries like Skyrim are an exception for their respective franchises vs. the rule, it's absolutely not hard to picture GTA6 outperforming new entries in all of those IP and more combined, and with relative ease, in its first year of sales alone.

Though, GTA5 arguably could also be called an exception for its own franchise. Even if true, and even if I personally think GTA6 will have a somewhat softer B2P unit sales performance...it's not going to suddenly grater from GTA5 numbers back to Vice City, San Andreas or GTA4 numbers. We're talking maybe a 25% - 30% decline in lifetime B2P unit sales at most for GTA6 vs GTA5. That's still comfortably above entries in all the MS IP you just mentioned, combined.

 

[Baki]

COD sales are declining game-over-game. Diablo is a 12-15 million lifetime seller per entry. Same with Fallout; only Skyrim did more than 10 million for a Fallout entry.

What I'm getting at is, with the trend certain IP like COD have been exhibiting and the fact entries like Skyrim are an exception for their respective franchises vs. the rule, it's absolutely not hard to picture GTA6 outperforming new entries in all of those IP and more combined, and with relative ease, in its first year of sales alone.

Though, GTA5 arguably could also be called an exception for its own franchise. Even if true, and even if I personally think GTA6 will have a somewhat softer B2P unit sales performance...it's not going to suddenly grater from GTA5 numbers back to Vice City, San Andreas or GTA4 numbers. We're talking maybe a 25% - 30% decline in lifetime B2P unit sales at most for GTA6 vs GTA5. That's still comfortably above entries in all the MS IP you just mentioned, combined.

Diablo 3 >30M. Diablo 4 will get there.
Falllout 4 >30M
Minecraft is one of the best selling games of all time.
Forza Horizon is another big seller.

GTA VI is going to be a monster but even when T2 had GTA V they were the #3 publisher in terms of revenue behind ABK and EA. MS has essentially combined ABK, with Bethesda, Minecraft and Xbox Studios (Halo and Forza).

 

[SportsFan581]

Of course you can. It is an app. Microsoft dictates what apps can be installed. Just because GOG or Steam is allowed doesn't mean the user has free reign to install whatever the hell they want. Either way, I don't get these narratives as if Microsoft isn't in full control of the operating system and can decide exactly what it can and can't do.

There really would be no point in taking that step for them if you think about it. By supporting multiple storefronts, they've accepted the end of Xbox as a traditional walled-garden console platform. Why gimp the system at that point, unnecessarily?

I assume it will be locked down from a hardware perspective, meaning limited upgradability with the CPU/GPU/Memory on the board, no PCIe slots (outside of maybe one for an extra NVMe). But, it'll probably just be a PC in the end. Maybe you'll have to work a bit to get it out of the default mode, but the desktop will probably be on there.

With the way that the series consoles have died away post PS ports, this is the smart move. If they put something together that has a nice form factor, solid performance, and a reasonable price (for the performance level), this might take off for them. Not take off like 100m PS units, but it could be a popular PC model that devs could target with ready-made profiles like they do with Steam Deck.

 

[MisterXDTV]

There really would be no point in taking that step for them if you think about it. By supporting multiple storefronts, they've accepted the end of Xbox as a traditional walled-garden console platform. Why gimp the system at that point, unnecessarily?

Exactly, Once you let Steam and the other stored run on it, there's no point in locking down anything

The walled garden is already gone for good

 

[Topher]

There really would be no point in taking that step for them if you think about it. By supporting multiple storefronts, they've accepted the end of Xbox as a traditional walled-garden console platform. Why gimp the system at that point, unnecessarily?

I assume it will be locked down from a hardware perspective, meaning limited upgradability with the CPU/GPU/Memory on the board, no PCIe slots (outside of maybe one for an extra NVMe). But, it'll probably just be a PC in the end. Maybe you'll have to work a bit to get it out of the default mode, but the desktop will probably be on there.

With the way that the series consoles have died away post PS ports, this is the smart move. If they put something together that has a nice form factor, solid performance, and a reasonable price (for the performance level), this might take off for them. Not take off like 100m PS units, but it could be a popular PC model that devs could target with ready-made profiles like they do with Steam Deck.

Locked down console with multiple stores makes zero sense to me. I just don't get the arguments some here are making that it can't be done. Obviously it can. Gotta emphasize here that knowing that Microsoft very well can do this doesn't mean that I believe they should. Quite the opposite. I think a SFF Xboc PC would be very appealing to a lot of people. I've said in the past that I wish XSX could be turned into a PC to run Windows and other operating systems. I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what we get, but I'm not doubting K KeplerL2 and HeisenbergFX4 either. We will just have to wait and see.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

My guess, pessimistic as it might be, is that the next XBOX would be sold at a much higher price tag compared to a performance wise equivalent pre-built PC.

MS CFO has already set a 30% profit margin target on the XBOX division. And we know that MS invested big on AI but the financial return so far is quite disappointing at best; that's one of the major reasons why they are orchestrating major layoffs almost yearly -> they would very much like to cut operational costs to cover up the AI expenses and make the quarterly earnings look better. MSFT stock prices made Satya; it can break him as well. Given these circumstances I doubt the XBOX division would have much leeway when setting the MSRP; it cannot be sold at a loss, there must be some really solid profit per unit to make things work. In addition, XBOX is not a walled garden any more, which means MS can no longer take a cut from the software sales to cover hardware costs. That's one more reason for MS to keep the price tag high.

Normally manufacturers like MS would be able to cut a better deal with suppliers by making volume purchases over multiple years. which can significantly reduce the production cost. But the demand for XBOX is already at an all time low and the next XBOX is positioned as a premium device, which would make the target audience even more limited. I do not know many die-hard XBOX fans any more. This would put MS' supply chain negotiators at a very difficult position; suppliers like AMD would be very reluctant to give a deep discount to MS for a console/PC with a sales estimate of several millions at best. Steam faces the same challenges, but they are up and rising, whereas XBOX is going downhills. I know that they have cut a deal with AMD, but the more I think of it the more I am inclined to believe that it's going to be a deal of buying a bunch of COTS chips from AMD with some surface-level customization (once again, like what Valve is doing right now). So, yeah, the costs would very likely be almost consistent with a similarly configured pre-built PC on the public market. We also need to factor in the BC chips, which would push the costs even higher.

XBOX (the hardware part) is just going to become another Surface lineup. MS is basically just trying to squeeze the very last bit out of their most loyal fanbase's wallet, selling lackluster builds at a premium using a nice design and a set of bonus features that means little yet seems difficult not to have as justification. If Surface as a brand can survive, then XBOX hardware can as well; but it's not going to live up to its former glorious self any more.

TBF, part of the word on how all this next Xbox stuff is supposed to work, is that MS would boost volume orders by reusing Magnus chips for Azure, and other products in the PC space (likely with OEMs making their own systems). So even if the majority of chips they'd get fabbed for Azure are not dedicated to gaming per-se, they would still be able to leverage things like Azure to get some type of volume and economies of scale.

It's like a supercharged version of what they did with the Series X APU, which was specifically designed with cloud usage in mind as well as gaming (partly why it had some of the performance issues it did for a long time vs. PS5 in most multiplats...beyond MS's tools just sucking in comparison of course). Only this time, very lopsided in favor of Azure and I'd assume that would also include AI projects, whatever of those are being worked on.

 

[SportsFan581]

Locked down console with multiple stores makes zero sense to me. I just don't get the arguments some here are making that it can't be done. Obviously it can. Gotta emphasize here that knowing that Microsoft very well can do this doesn't mean that I believe they should. Quite the opposite. I think a SFF Xboc PC would be very appealing to a lot of people. I've said in the past that I wish XSX could be turned into a PC to run Windows and other operating systems. I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what we get, but I'm not doubting K KeplerL2 and HeisenbergFX4 either. We will just have to wait and see.

Okay, I get what you are saying now. Yeah, I definitely think it would be foolish to limit what the system can do if they intend to allow Epic or Steam on there. The only way that would make sense is if they intend to lock the device to the PC Xbox store.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

I've been playing around a bit with the big screen experience for Xbox on PC recently and I can see how this can work quite well. Setting steam to launch on Big Screen mode works well together and Epic / GOG games launch straight from the Xbox app.

They need to work on making the UI a bit more slick and also figure out how installing games from the other launchers can work a bit better. But overall the overall ve been enjoying the 'console' like experience of it and being able to access games across libraries.

 

[KeplerL2]

Okay, I get what you are saying now. Yeah, I definitely think it would be foolish to limit what the system can do if they intend to allow Epic or Steam on there. The only way that would make sense is if they intend to lock the device to the PC Xbox store.

What does MS gain by allowing users to pirate games or use emulators?

 

[Crayon]

Tell yah what, steam machine or this, I like the idea of a minipc/integrated system for gaming. I think I would pay the same as an equivalent desktop build. There are tradeoffs but I would consider both if I was in the market.

 

[LokusAbriss]

They should have started this on xbox series x and s already. Microsoft is so damn slow. If linux gains much more traction this year, they will lose a sizable windows-userbase in the longterm.

I hope that they will improve the software emulation on arm hardware, like those new snapdragon devices. With better and better integrated gpus, even aaa-games can run on any device.

Something like apples mac mini and macbook air, but microsoft style, would be cool. Accessable prices for all, with good performance and great gaming Features from the xbox series consoles.

But with the current state of copilot ai and windows 11, a steam machine or linux pc would be a much more interesting path.

 

[memoryman3]

What does MS gain by allowing users to pirate games or use emulators?

What does MS gain by allowing other stores? They profit off selling the hardware of course.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

What does MS gain by allowing other stores? They profit off selling the hardware of course.

And how has that been going for them as of late?