• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Winter Anime 2017 |OT| John Wick cleaning up KyoAni's mess

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think it might even be fair to say that KyoAni is one of, if not the best, studios at making changes to original source material for the purposes of making it into a good TV series.

Yeah probably. They even go so far to add new characters, which usually fit in so well its unnoticeable they were added.
 

Jex

Member
So I wanted to reply to everyone’s comments regarding Little Witch Academia, but responding to every comment from every poster feels like overkill. To get around this I am now going to address the 4 most common arguments that I saw people making. You’ll have to excuse me if I am misinterpreting anyone’s argument, but I’m just trying to do my best to collate a variety of very similar points that people were making.

Argument 1: “Why do you want LWA TV to have some big epic storyline? As Flip Flappers has demonstrated, can’t a focus on telling a traditional narrative ultimately detract from the initial, simple, appeal of the series?”

This wasn’t an argument that I was making. For the record, I don’t particularly care whether the series ends telling a larger over-arching story or whether it stays episodic. As long as it does what it’s trying to well I don’t mind.

Argument 2: “I don’t get your complaints about the characters. Why are you expecting there to be some really complicated, fleshed out characters in this kind of TV show?”

As with the above, this wasn’t the argument I was making. I didn’t say “I’m really disappointed that Akko isn’t a layered, complicated character like Yakumo from Rakugo”. My position is that Akko, Sucy, and Lotte are barely characters at all – they’re all one note. If the characters in your series are underdeveloped this is a problem because a) we can’t care about characters we don’t know b) the series lacks the dynamism and entertainment generated by having a cast of characters that bounce off-of each other.

At present, my uncharitable summation of the cast is as follows:

Akko – Girl who loves the magic of Shiny Chariot. Her defining character traits include perseverance and passion.
Sucy – She loves poisons. She doesn’t care about anything, or anyone else at all.
Lotte – Glasses stand.

There’s really not a lot going with Sucy or Lotte, is there? With regards to Akko, I suppose she is supposed to be at least vaguely charming but I think she lacks the richness and texture of a character like Usagi from Sailor Moon, or Doremi from Ojamajo Doremi. Perhaps a comparison would be useful for those who aren’t as well versed in this genre of anime.

In the first episode of Ojamajo Doremi we’re introduced to the titular character. We learn that Doremi is a very energetic girl. She has a very high opinion of herself, whom she considers “the world’s unluckiest pretty girl”. Her mood can change on a dime. She’s very honest and transparent, to the point where even her little sister can read her thoughts and intentions. She falls in love easily with cool boys. She isn’t courageous enough to confess her feelings to the guy she likes, and her repeated failures to confess make cause her to be deeply frustrated with herself. She’s not a great student, but she’s not stupid either – etc etc. We spend time with her at home with her family – we spend time with her at school and outside school. We learn all this, and more, in a single episode of the show. This is the kind of character work that I’d expect to see LWA TV engage in considering how much running time it has available vs the OVA that it sprung from.

Akko, by comparison, is someone whose life we know almost nothing about. We aren’t aware of her home life, we haven’t met her relatives, and we don’t what her life was like before she went to Luna Nova. We just know she went to this one concert and then sometime later she makes her way to magic school. She talks about Shiny Chariot a lot and wants to be like her. It’s been three episodes and I feel like I less about her than I did about other protagonists at the point in their magical girl shows.

Probably, as people have pointed out, we’ll learn more about these characters as the show goes on. I’m sure that’s on the cards, for the series but really I think that should have been the priority for these first three episodes. Instead of developing the characters, these first three episodes have largely been devoted to meaningless fluff. I think they’ve gone about it completely the wrong way.

Again, I feel compelled to return to Ojamajo Doremi as a point of comparison. Each of those first three episodes is devoted to exploring a single member of the main trio. That’s called giving time to your characters – something that you should be doing considering that they’re the foundation for the rest of the series. One episode = one character introduction is pretty common in magical girl shows and it works very well. Sailor Moon does the same thing, as does Utena and countless other works.

LWA TV eschews this well-worn structure and decides to do its own thing – and there’s nothing wrong with that. It introduces all of its characters and its world at once. Rather than spending its first few episodes establishing the cast it’s more interested in fun and adventure. You can do all of that and still have a very compelling series – unfortunately LWA TV does not manage to pull that off. To compare and contrast, Tweeny Witches is another series that sets its own template, but unlike LWA TV it does a fantastic job of establishing its characters, it’s world and having a fun time all at once.

Argument 3: “The pacing in LWA TV is perfectly fine. It’s only been three episodes, after all. Expecting anything more than we’ve got would be unusual, considering the source material. They’re just laying the groundwork.”

I can see from the responses in here that plenty of people have no problem with the way the series is structured. However, I really feel like those first three episodes have largely been squandered in terms of both establishing the characters and the setting. This is something that many other shows in this genre have already done better. People were really not happy when Haly compared the pacing of Scum’s Wish to LWA TV. So let me break from that and instead compare LWA TV with another series that it’s somewhat resembles – Tweeny Witches.

The first two episodes of Tweeny Witches are really packed. They establish an entire magical realm, explain its rules and highlight the social structure of the denizens of said realm. We’re introduced to three, very different major characters who will go onto form the trio which serves as the heart of the series. We learn a great deal about our protagonist: her backstory, her desires, her ideals and we then see how these ideals cause conflict with the other major characters in the story and the world that she finds herself in. All the events that take place in the series are as a direct result of this character-driven conflict. This is all done in two episodes. It really is a masterful display of how to set-up a series.

Now I’m not saying that LWA TV needs to tell its story in the exact same way. I’m just saying that it’s perfectly possible that they could have done a lot more than they have done up to this point of the. It really is not as outside the realm of possibility as some people were suggesting in the tone of their posts.

Argument 4: “I like fun things. LWA TV is fun. Therefore, I like LWA TV. I don’t understand why you’re asking for more?”

I’m not here to say that you shouldn’t enjoy LWA TV. What I’m trying to say is that I don’t think it’s a very good show. I think it’s merely fine - which I consider to be a problem for two reason:

Firstly, Trigger isn’t exactly a no-name studio. They’ve got a lot of smart, talented, passionate people working there. They’re working on a beloved property which helped to make a name for them back when they were starting out. Due to their tie-in with Netflix, they’re working on a property which will be seen by a very wide audience. So, for all those reasons I think they have the potential to a hell of a lot better than just “fine”. They could in fact make something really good – but they haven’t.

Secondly, LWA TV isn’t exactly blazing a new trail here. This is fairly well worn territory with lots of competition from other shows featuring cute girls doing magic and other fun things. I’ve watched a fair number of those shows and many of them are substantially better than this. At the moment, LWA TV feels like its hovering around PreCure level, except with worse characters. Maybe not everyone is familiar with the likes of Ojamajo Doremi, but I think if you’re interested in LWA TV there’s no reason you shouldn’t be checking out the many, better magical girl shows that exist. I find it very hard to be charitable to LWA TV when all those other, better works exist.
 

Jex

Member
The second cour of Bungou Stray Dogs has stayed with me for a while now and I really need to put forth some ideas about the show just to get it out of my system..

Just wanted to highlight this excellent post because it's great.
 

PK Gaming

Member
OK. I haven't read the novel either, so I was just going of my memory of what I've heard people said about it. I've just heard a lot of people calling KyoAni an evil and/or incompetent organization that continually screws up the material they adapt, and specifically comments such as "Naoko Yamada's hobbies are promoting traditional social values and crushing the dreams of yuri fans" - an assertion that seems dubious, to say the least. I think such comments, coming from people who haven't read the original works in question and are just going off hearsay, should be kept in check. Your last sentence seems dangerously close to assuming that Takeda is unhappy with how KyoAni has chosen to adapt her work, which is something I don't see any reason to assume.

I have my own problems with Sound Euphonium, especially the second season, problems which I believe are likely due both partly to the author's original work and partly to the choices made in the adaptation process. But I think KyoAni is too often made into a punching bag for unjustified reasons, and I don't think they're incompetent or malicious or cynical, broadly speaking.

To be clear, I really did enjoy Sound Euphonium, and i'm a pretty big fan of KyoAni's works in general. I loved K-On, Hyouka is one of my all time favorite anime, and their adaptation of Maid Dragon gives me life. I'm not some bitter yuri fan, and I wasn't trying to imply that Takeda was unhappy with KyoAni's adaptation either. Their handling of certain relationship dynamics aside, they've made a ridiculous amount of improvements to the source material, and the anime (overall) is absolutely great. I just wanted to set the record straight regarding my problems with the show.
 
I dunno Ojamajo Doremi had a different set up and premise and I distinctly remember not caring all that much about those three girls in the beginning either. In fact I found Doremi to be actually annoying in the first three episodes.

Course it had 50 episodes to fill out those girls and make them interesting.
 

Jex

Member
Can everyone stop being so polite and understanding? That's not how the Internet is supposed to work.
 
Time Bokan 24 Episode 16 – Galileo Galilei Was Actually a ______!
C3Xmo7YWEAMaBlw.jpg:small


No no no, so many yoyo yo's this episode, but it was kind of funnier than most of the other Time Bokan episodes.
 
To be clear, I really did enjoy Sound Euphonium, and i'm a pretty big fan of KyoAni's works in general. I loved K-On, Hyouka is one of my all time favorite anime, and their adaptation of Maid Dragon gives me life. I'm not some bitter yuri fan, and I wasn't trying to imply that Takeda was unhappy with KyoAni's adaptation either. Their handling of certain relationship dynamics aside, they've made a ridiculous amount of improvements to the source material, and the anime (overall) is absolutely great. I just wanted to set the record straight regarding my problems with the show.

OK, that sounds reasonable. For the record, I wasn't trying to say that the Sound Euphonium anime had no changes from the source material - clearly that's not true - just that it's hard to properly judge the appropriateness of those changes from the hearsay that goes around the Internet. Fortunately the Sound Euphonium novel will be coming out in English, so we'll all be able to buy and read it and have a fully informed opinion then.

From all the series that are out there, Euphonium or LWA are not exactly where I would spend my efforts discussing.

I haven't gotten around to watching Little Witch Academia TV yet, but Sound Euphonium has a lot of points that are well worth discussing.
 
My overall feelings for this season with 3 episodes watched of each show I'm watching (LWA I'm waiting till Netflix gets off its ass)

5 = Average

Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu: Sukeroku Futatabi-hen: It's more Rakugo, really what else is there to say but singing its praises? 8.5/10
Gintama.: More Gintama, off to a better start then the previous season with the director learning some of what worked and didn't work last time around. 7.5/10
Kobayashi-san Chi no Maid Dragon: KyoAni is doing a great job adapting this, 90% of the changes they have made were for the best. 7/10
Kono Subarashii Sekai ni Shukufuku wo! 2: The gang of assholes are back again and even more deformed, sorta enjoying the lack of Darkness so far. 6.5/10
Demi-chan wa Kataritai: A decent adaption so far. I have some issues here and there, but since I know the source material and assume they won't stray to far I can put to rest some of those concerns. 6/10
Ao no Exorcist: Kyoto Fujouou-hen: I don't particularly like this arc in the manga and with how slow of an adaption it will need to be to make it 12 episodes doesn't help it. 4.5/10
Gabriel DropOut: It's pretty like all Doga Koba shows, but its just not translating great from manga to anime so far. 4/10
Akiba's Trip The Animation: This is trash, but its slightly fun trash that doesn't annoy me. 3/10
ēlDLIVE: CHUTA, CHUTA, CHUTA, CHUTA, CHUTA! Every single bad aspect of Hitman Reborn rolled up into a single package...at least its ending can't possibly make me rage like HR's manga did....2.5/10
Nyanko Days: I like the ending song I guess...2/10
Minami Kamakura Koukou Joshi Jitensha-bu (DROPPED): This just felt insulting to watch (yes lets make the MC girl have the mental ability of an infant!), its only plus is the pretty backgrounds. 1.5/10
 

KraytarJ

Member
Yuri on Ice 4
Yuri continues down the road of gaining self-confidence while realizing that acknowledging your own weakness isn't enough to get to where he wants to be. Meanwhile Yurio continues to evolve as a person, realizing himself that he still has a lot of work and growth before he can get to where Victor left off. Overall I really dug what was put down here and again the show is building off itself in interesting ways while leaving a lot of interesting future pathways. Then the title drop at the end of episode was unexpected for me.
 
Excluding continuing shows like Gundam and Twin star, I decided to watch fewer shows this season and stick to my comfort zone. Good news is that I'm enjoying all of them.

I'm watching

Tales of Zestiria
Blue Exorcist
élDLIVE
Akiba's trip

Great stuff all around, but it's truly the calm before the storm for me! The spring season is going to be amazing! I can feel it!
 
So I'm finally watching Gintama and boy do the first two episodes really undersell it. The third episode is such a big improvement it's no joke.

My overall feelings for this season with 3 episodes watched of each show I'm watching (LWA I'm waiting till Netflix gets off its ass)

5 = Average

Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu: Sukeroku Futatabi-hen: It's more Rakugo, really what else is there to say but singing its praises? 8.5/10
Gintama.: More Gintama, off to a better start then the previous season with the director learning some of what worked and didn't work last time around. 7.5/10
Kobayashi-san Chi no Maid Dragon: KyoAni is doing a great job adapting this, 90% of the changes they have made were for the best. 7/10
Kono Subarashii Sekai ni Shukufuku wo! 2: The gang of assholes are back again and even more deformed, sorta enjoying the lack of Darkness so far. 6.5/10
Demi-chan wa Kataritai: A decent adaption so far. I have some issues here and there, but since I know the source material and assume they won't stray to far I can put to rest some of those concerns. 6/10
Ao no Exorcist: Kyoto Fujouou-hen: I don't particularly like this arc in the manga and with how slow of an adaption it will need to be to make it 12 episodes doesn't help it. 4.5/10
Gabriel DropOut: It's pretty like all Doga Koba shows, but its just not translating great from manga to anime so far. 4/10
Akiba's Trip The Animation: This is trash, but its slightly fun trash that doesn't annoy me. 3/10
ēlDLIVE: CHUTA, CHUTA, CHUTA, CHUTA, CHUTA! Every single bad aspect of Hitman Reborn rolled up into a single package...at least its ending can't possibly make me rage like HR's manga did....2.5/10
Nyanko Days: I like the ending song I guess...2/10
Minami Kamakura Koukou Joshi Jitensha-bu (DROPPED): This just felt insulting to watch (yes lets make the MC girl have the mental ability of an infant!), its only plus is the pretty backgrounds. 1.5/10

You monster, using the full 10-point scale. Everybody knows 7/10 should be the bare minimum for an average show. :p
 
I'm watching so much stuff. I'd say look into these in this order if you are looking for a recommendation for this season:

Rakugo S2
Scum's Wish
Konosuba S2
Zestiria S2
Sangatsu
ACCA
Gundam IBO S2
Maid Dragon
Seiren
 

kewlmyc

Member
Fortunately the Sound Euphonium novel will be coming out in English, so we'll all be able to buy and read it and have a fully informed opinion then.

Wait, it is? That's awesome.

It's an actual novel and not a light novel right?

Also, for stuff I'm watching this season, I'm really only watching Rakugo S2 and Konosuba S2. Gave Scum's Wish a try, but caved and just read the manga. Seems the entirety of the manga (plus the upcoming ending) will be covered since they've covered a lot of distance in just 3 episodes, so I'll just marathon it at the end. Waiting for Netflix to put up LWA as well, so that'll will have to wait until sometime in the summer.
 

Narag

Member
I'll probably pick up that novel. Even if the focus of what's being brought over by these pubs is limited, it's great to get more translated works in general.
 

KraytarJ

Member
My list of spring stuff I'll be watching:
Rakugo S2
Masamune-kun
Konosuba 2
Dragon Maid
Akiba's Trip

If Rakugo S2 can be as great as S1 was then the season will be worth it for that alone. Otherwise I think it'll be good, and a lot better than I thought it would be going in.
 

kewlmyc

Member
Wish Yen Press was more consistent with their ebook releases. Why isn't Rokka: Braves of the Six Flowers available digitally?

It's still for children if that is what you are asking.

Light novels tend to be shorter than novels and have have illustrations in them, hence why I was asking if it was a novel or a light novel.
 

Cornbread78

Member
Blue Exorcist S2 ep.4
Looks like things are finally moving alone and Rin is learning... well, trying to at least. A lot more drama going on thsn I expected from this season; hopefully the action part starts kicking in soon.
 

Narag

Member
Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu 13 FIN

God damn that final line. I know where my AOTY vote is going now.

Also, there's something to be said about one of the most disingenuous circular arguments that's been propagated in here that all media is by default emotionally manipulative and so cheap "feels" moments carry the same gravitas of earned drama. Rakugo makes clear Sukeroku's unfortunate death clear in the first episode but everything from episode 2 until the end of episode 12 is building a foundation of character relationships, unrealized hopes and dreams, and such a strong resistance to fate that when he does die, it hurts even more than if it had been a surprise meant to evoke emotional reaction. it's the difference between the superficial bruise on the skin that you forget about soon after it happens and the throbbing pain of the bone that never fully leaves after receiving injury. His death is the culmination of a life of vice he'd often fall to in times of seeking comfort and to see Konatsu's innocence stripped away by the foolishness of adults, it's enough to make one ashamed to be one.

Although that notion could never be fully understood if you weren't one already.
 
I did find Sukeroku's death a little too melodramatic, but that's just me. It didn't kill the series or the characters or even the impact of his death on the characters for me, but it was a bit much.
 

Narag

Member
I did find Sukeroku's death a little too soap opera, but that's just me. It didn't kill the series or the characters or even the impact of his death on the characters for me, but it was a bit much.

I think there's a good argument to be had about it being a little too theatrical but it's something I'm willing to accept in a show obsessed with performers.
 

KraytarJ

Member
I did find Sukeroku's death a little too melodramatic, but that's just me. It didn't kill the series or the characters or even the impact of his death on the characters for me, but it was a bit much.
The way events unfolded in that scene were a little hard to believe imo, like how do you people move so quickly?
 

Cornbread78

Member
3-gatsu ep.15
Kyouko is scary crazy... Other than that, this was more about the two heavyweights going head to head and hoe Rei is dealing with it (almost escapism with schoolwork)
 
Did they introduce some magic of some kind? Please tell me they did that because I've been calling that ever since this show started airing a year and a half ago.

Nah. I'm pissed because of
the deaths of several beloved characters
, but there's none of that. The actual show has been pretty damn good.
 
I did find Sukeroku's death a little too melodramatic, but that's just me. It didn't kill the series or the characters or even the impact of his death on the characters for me, but it was a bit much.

I think there's a good argument to be had about it being a little too theatrical but it's something I'm willing to accept in a show obsessed with performers.

The way events unfolded in that scene were a little hard to believe imo, like how do you people move so quickly?

Yeah, its a show that is literally about theatrics. That is how I see it. There's definitely a feeling of romanticism in it, but in highly theatrical works nobody ever dies a death without meaning or pomp - Shakespeare saw to that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom