-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Working Designs is a goner.........
- Thread starter Tenacious-V
- Start date
Patrick Klepek
furiously molesting tim burton
Yeah, Working Designs had nothing to do with the DS game. Lunar's safe...if it ever happens.
I do have Lunar 2 with the life size pendant and the punching pupptet Ghaleon and the stand up figures (never even opened those), cloth map, and hardcover book with silk bookmark.
Though I have respect for any company that brings niche games to the west, the times have definitely changed. It's eat or be eaten in the game world. I'm pretty sure in a previous WD thread I said something negative about the company. But WD was so slow at localizing games and the competition was fierce, I lost interest in growlancer and arc the lad by the time they came out and moved on. It's still sad when a developer dies.
But being the Goemon fan I am, i'd buy that in an instant.
Though I have respect for any company that brings niche games to the west, the times have definitely changed. It's eat or be eaten in the game world. I'm pretty sure in a previous WD thread I said something negative about the company. But WD was so slow at localizing games and the competition was fierce, I lost interest in growlancer and arc the lad by the time they came out and moved on. It's still sad when a developer dies.
But being the Goemon fan I am, i'd buy that in an instant.
PopfulMail
Member
eXxy said:
If you consider Lunar to be "safe" after Dragon Song, you are mistaken.
Anyway... sad to see WD close up shop as they have always been one of my favorites. Their more recent offerings left a bit to be desired, but I've always considered them to be a great company. To this day, WD instruction books are the only manuals I've actually taken the time to sit down and read through.... multiple times even.
R.I.P. ....and thanks to everyone who helped in bringing my favorite game Stateside.
Mr_Furious
Member
Because Vic put all of his eggs in the PS2 basket. Seriously now, how hard is it to branch out to other platforms that also have a wealth of product not being localized for the U.S. market. Either he burned some serious bridges or he was just too stubborn (or holds grudges) to allow WD to explore other platform opportunities.Sholmes said:
Anyways, sad news. I was always looking forward to hearing what was coming next from WD. They put pride in their games and delivered great quality materials and packaging for the hardcore gamers to appreciate.
Good luck with your future endeavors, Vic and the whole ex-WD crew.
Seems a little like sour grapes. They haven't published a well-received game in half a decade (and haven't published anything on time either), but for whatever reason they blame Sony for their demise. Getting approval on a piece-of-shit like Goemon wouldn't have saved the company. It would've sold a few thousand copies, staving off Chapter 11 for a few extra months. I dunno why they chose to fight SCEA on that game for literally years....or why they thought it was worth a shot in the first place.
They were pretty much on the road to becoming a low-budget Bandai, selling awful anime-heavy games to ADD-addled 15-year-old Japanophiles that don't know any better.
Most of the people here have it right anyhow -- WD was simply muscled out of the market by larger interests.
They were pretty much on the road to becoming a low-budget Bandai, selling awful anime-heavy games to ADD-addled 15-year-old Japanophiles that don't know any better.
What other platforms had content that was appropriate for Working Designs? Xbox has no Japanese RPGs, and the handful of RPGs on the Cube were from big-name companies with a US publishing branch.Mr_Furious said:
Most of the people here have it right anyhow -- WD was simply muscled out of the market by larger interests.
Oh darn, now we won't get to listen to Vic moan and bitch about SCEA rejecting his shit ass titles because he's trying to sell them for 5x what they're worth. =/
Should've been smart and picked some better titles Vic. Oh, and learn how to fucking manage a company. I don't care how good you think your localizations are, taking 3+ years to do 'em you should be lucky you only have to close your doors, not file for bankruptcy.
Should've been smart and picked some better titles Vic. Oh, and learn how to fucking manage a company. I don't care how good you think your localizations are, taking 3+ years to do 'em you should be lucky you only have to close your doors, not file for bankruptcy.
Mr_Furious
Member
Appropriate for WD? If they decided to only do JRPGs then I should edit my original post to "exploring other platforms AND genres". Other posters have already named some games that are still sitting in the land of the rising sun.border said:
Well their business was translation of text-heavy games that most publishers would ignore because of the localization work involved. If they had tried to go after action titles with minimal translation, they would have been bidding against an even larger pool of publishers and would still have been muscled out of business by companies with huge bank accounts.Mr_Furious said:
Even ignoring the genre-factor, was there really that much on the Cube and Xbox that they could have brought over? And would any of it done well, considering the abysmal sales of smalltime 3rd party stuff on Cube and Xbox owners' apathy towards kooky Japanese stuff?
Xbox had Shin Megami Tensei: Nine. Yes, it's Atlus, but Atlus has let other companies localize and publish its games when its American branch chose not to. Like Growlanser Generations.border said:
It's only one game, but SMT: Nine could have kept Working Designs in business long enough to find an acceptable PS2 project.
SolidSnakex
Member
SKOPE said:
That's the big problem, it became more common for companies this gen to publish their own games or for bigger publishers to outbid WD for certain games. Atlus has been snatching up quality game after quality game, UBI took Grandia 2 and now Square has G3, NIS is doing other small games ect. They had their lifeline cut off when publishers started picking up the games they generally relied on.
Shouta
Member
Reno said:
It's not like Atlus is very good with their choices of games all the time either. They decided to put out Stella Deus and that's an absolute stinker in every regard. Magna Carta is the same as well and then there's Samurai Western. There's just a difference in financial backing and support. I mean honestly, all the folks that compared WD to Atlus are totally ignoring the fact that Atlus has backing in Japan and is actually a relatively large company where as WD really isn't. The last time I asked how many folks were in the offices with Vic, it was something like 9 total people working on everything. Now toss in the fact RPGs are their speciality and that's just not an ideal combination.
border said:
Their Goemon fight wasn't actually all that long I don't think. I believe it was just made into a bigger deal. What really was the killer was Growlanser II and III being forced into a bundle when they wanted to sell them separately. They had Growlanser II done a year or year and a half prior to Growlanser Generations being released and then Sony told them they needed to do it in a bundle with Growlanser III or no dice and that really set them back. I mean, I think Growlanser II/III is a much better deal for the consumer but you gotta admit that's just an assbackwards reaming for WD.
All I can say is that I got into the WD game fairly late (Alundra... their first PSX release) because at the time I never owned a system they worked on (TG-CD/Sega-CD/Saturn) and had a friend who wouldn't shut up about the original Lunar on Sega-CD. But then I later went back and bought a ton of older WD games - Dragon Force, Exile, Magic Knight Rayearth... Arc the Lad 2 being my favorite thing that they ever worked on. It's still really sad to see them go as a long time RPG fan, they've done so much for the genre in the US, and for quality English localizations. Plus Vic always seemed like a cool guy in USENET/message board/email dealings with him.
WD - We will never forget.
WD - We will never forget.
not feasible. vic is anti-SMT because of its demonic overtones. check usenet if you don't believe me. =)SKOPE said:
weird scenarios that would result in the continued existence of WD are amusing but so incredibly moot. any "what if" scenario includes things that would not have happened -- vic making a decision based on business instead of personal feeling. it's what made the company cool, but it's also what quite obviously led to its downfall.
JackFrost2012
Banned
DavidDayton said:
By that logic, they should have quit the game industry and just spent it all on lottery tickets.
BobbyRobby
Member
Aw man, what a bummer. Thanks for bringing over one of my all time favorite games, Lunar: SSSC.
I hope a huge majority of the staff gets picked up by another company, and works on translations inthe future.
I hope a huge majority of the staff gets picked up by another company, and works on translations inthe future.
Greenpanda
Banned
Our games go to chapter 11, eh?
(I can't believe that hadn't already been posted; I searched the whole thread twice :\ .)
(I can't believe that hadn't already been posted; I searched the whole thread twice :\ .)
MightyHedgehog
Member
Greenpanda said:
Mean, but funny, IMO. :lol
Recently I've been actively playing Alundra for the first time. I had the game for a while, since '98 maybe. For whatever reason I just never got around to sinking my teeth into it, and just as I do, Working Designs goes under.
Wow.
I really don't want to believe they're through because here was one of the most, if not the most fan friendly game publisher there's ever been, as far as North America is concerned.
Working Designs, a bunch of true videogame lovers.
I also own Arc the Lad Collection, among other WD games. Arc the Lad, a package that still amazes me. Three entire RPGs, lovingly translated by passionate people. How many years did we go without the first Arc? How many years of wondering whether or not SCEA would wake up and publish it?
Thank God they didn't even bother because we never would have the "Arc the Lad Collection". People wanted that game and Sony, for years, would not deliver. Bless all Working Designs employees.
Yes, even Vic.
He's a vocal guy who has definitely said the wrong things at times (one word: Craveyard) but no one should deny his love and understanding of Japanese gaming and how that benefited all gamers, at least the ones who bought his product. He really does get what's great about the games he's released. And it's probably one of the reasons why WD went under. But I'm very proud of what he and the whole WD staff has done for the gaming industry and the gaming community.
Definitely a huge loss.
Wow.
I really don't want to believe they're through because here was one of the most, if not the most fan friendly game publisher there's ever been, as far as North America is concerned.
Working Designs, a bunch of true videogame lovers.
I also own Arc the Lad Collection, among other WD games. Arc the Lad, a package that still amazes me. Three entire RPGs, lovingly translated by passionate people. How many years did we go without the first Arc? How many years of wondering whether or not SCEA would wake up and publish it?
Thank God they didn't even bother because we never would have the "Arc the Lad Collection". People wanted that game and Sony, for years, would not deliver. Bless all Working Designs employees.
Yes, even Vic.
He's a vocal guy who has definitely said the wrong things at times (one word: Craveyard) but no one should deny his love and understanding of Japanese gaming and how that benefited all gamers, at least the ones who bought his product. He really does get what's great about the games he's released. And it's probably one of the reasons why WD went under. But I'm very proud of what he and the whole WD staff has done for the gaming industry and the gaming community.
Definitely a huge loss.
Yeah, I remember Working Designs telling the fans it wouldn't pick up Persona 2: Innocent Sin, in part, because it felt the game was "too dark."ferricide said:
But Vic Ireland was starting to show signs of swallowing his pride in an attempt to save his business.
Years ago, Vic said he wouldn't bring an Ys game to North America because he felt the series hadn't aged well. A few months ago, he wrote that he wanted to release the remakes in North America.
Granted, there's a big difference in tone between Shin Megami Tensei: Nine and the Ys remakes.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Tain said:
SCEA's approval process didn't exactly make things easier either.
Mr_Furious
Member
Well it's quite obvious their business model failed yet other small publishers still remain in business so...border said:
Beggars can't be choosers. Sorry, but this PS2-only thing really came around to bite them in the ass.
Look at how well Tales of Symphonia sold on Gamecube. Why? Because the market there was starving for an RPG. I don't recall exactly, but didn't Ikaruga sell pretty decent on the Gamecube for Infrogames? Mr Driller: Drill Land, Doshin the Giant, Castle Shikigami, a couple of Gundam games, Nintendo Puzzle Collection, etc. There were plenty of GCN things that they could've brought over, and I'm sure there was a ton of stuff for GBA and some things worthy for Xbox as well.
Look at how well Tales of Symphonia sold on Gamecube. Why? Because the market there was starving for an RPG. I don't recall exactly, but didn't Ikaruga sell pretty decent on the Gamecube for Infrogames? Mr Driller: Drill Land, Doshin the Giant, Castle Shikigami, a couple of Gundam games, Nintendo Puzzle Collection, etc. There were plenty of GCN things that they could've brought over, and I'm sure there was a ton of stuff for GBA and some things worthy for Xbox as well.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Tellaerin said:
Heck, I'm trying to think, has Atlus published anything outside PS2 this entire generation?
Shouta
Member
Atlus does tons of GBA games and has done a few GC games here and there as well as DS games.
I went back through vic's posting history and here's some of his quotes (all from the Lunar DS thread :lol).
About GC and Xbox:
http://www.ga-forum.com/showpost.php?p=1129946&postcount=131
About WD publishing shooters:
http://www.ga-forum.com/showpost.php?p=1129971&postcount=133
About WD publishing on GBA:
http://www.ga-forum.com/showpost.php?p=1130221&postcount=144
I went back through vic's posting history and here's some of his quotes (all from the Lunar DS thread :lol).
About GC and Xbox:
http://www.ga-forum.com/showpost.php?p=1129946&postcount=131
About WD publishing shooters:
http://www.ga-forum.com/showpost.php?p=1129971&postcount=133
About WD publishing on GBA:
http://www.ga-forum.com/showpost.php?p=1130221&postcount=144
Shouta said:
It's sad that he said that he would only release games that he is interested in. No wonder the company is out of business.
And I like how he talks about the time for GBA/DS cartridges being too long compared to disc based media when they release a HANDFUL of games per GENERATION.
Seriously, wtf? I can't believe that GBA/DS games could take longer / be more expensive than all their fancy fucking packaging.
Vic has always been very kind to me. Before I came to the GA forums and was a regular poster at the WD forums years ago, Vic set up private boards and a chat room that only a few of us had access to. He would show up at the chat room from time to time and even gave out stuff like advance copies of Arc the Lad Collection for free. That level of fan access from the head of a video game company is unique, and I don't think we'll ever see anything like it again.
But I don't believe this is truly "the end of an era." In the mid-90s if it wasn't WD, it meant broken Engrish, shitty packaging and voice "talent" supplied by the office interns. But around the end of the last generation we started to see dramatic improvment with games like Vagrant Story and Valkyrie Profile, and good localizations are pretty common these days. I don't think it would be that way today if Working Designs hadn't raised the bar, and it's sad to see that after pushing the industry forward they've been swept aside like this. But their dream still lives on.
But I don't believe this is truly "the end of an era." In the mid-90s if it wasn't WD, it meant broken Engrish, shitty packaging and voice "talent" supplied by the office interns. But around the end of the last generation we started to see dramatic improvment with games like Vagrant Story and Valkyrie Profile, and good localizations are pretty common these days. I don't think it would be that way today if Working Designs hadn't raised the bar, and it's sad to see that after pushing the industry forward they've been swept aside like this. But their dream still lives on.
Shouta
Member
Hero said:
Releasing games Vic and other WD folks liked is what made WD who they were. WD was a fan-driven company and just picking up games to release to make money would betray what they wanted to do. Sure, it's not practical from a business standpoint but really, WD has never been purely about business. There's a moniker used in anime fansubbing (and other places as I recall) that goes "For fans, by fans" and WD fit the bill and that's what they were really about.
Hero said:
Uh, he's talking about the lead time for creating catridges and how it would be too inefficient for them if they guessed wrong on their production. For a company of WD's size, it underproducing and overproducing cartridges is just for their company. Create too few and you have problems meeting demand, create too many and you risk not selling them all and then being stuck in a hard place with all the extra carts and money wasted. It's easier for a large company with more money to do this because they can stand for a small loss but a company of WD's size just can't.
That aside, their production had only really been stifled this generation. During the Playstation generation, WD had eight releases with one of them being FOUR games in one package. That makes 11 games they released and most of them were text heavy RPGs, that's a helluva lot of work for a small company.
i started to do a postmortem on my blog and it got way out of control. so i thought i'd share!
http://my.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=6219927&publicUserId=5400083
i know everyone is going to just hate it for some reason or another, but what are you going to do? i actually do know what i'm talking about here, for what it's worth. =P
http://my.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=6219927&publicUserId=5400083
i know everyone is going to just hate it for some reason or another, but what are you going to do? i actually do know what i'm talking about here, for what it's worth. =P
the funny thing is that i made this joke so long ago i'd forgotten it by now. like i said, this was inevitable. the writing has been on the wall since before growlanser came out. sad but true...Greenpanda said:
He's wrong on lead times for DS at least though, data is written post production like CD-ROMs. Unless Nintendo institutes artificial lead times and minimum orders (which is doubtful as it'd negate the advantages of their new technology), Vic simply hadn't done his homework. Too bad... I woulda like Goemon DS.Shouta said:
A couple things to say about WD from someone who really has never talked much about them (but played their games).
They have published some of the best games in the industry.
They were slow.
They brought over games that likely wouldn't have been brought over by even other niche publishers.
Some of those games were questionable choices that probably got the sales they deserved.
They raised the bar on translations dramatically.
They were slow.
Their pechant to stay with one system hurt them.
So did their slowness.
I honestly hope this isn't the end for Vic. I started on Cosmic Fantasy 2 for the TurboCD, moved to Lunar on the SegaCD, and never looked back since. But I DO hope he has learned some things here that will make him better when he (inevitably) comes back. First, supporting one system is stupid. My buddy has like half a dozen import-only XBox games and FAQs through them just because they are nice looking and have fun mechanics. Also speed is VERY important. Not as important as quality, but I think WD didn't place enough emphasis on it. and beside harping on speed, again I'll harp on systems. If SCEA is slapping you in the face ever time you approach them, try hitting up XBox, or GBA, or DS, or PSP, or even Gamecube (though not so much). To focus on PS2, especially in light of SCEA being utter bitches when it comes to approving localizations, just seems poorly planned.
They have published some of the best games in the industry.
They were slow.
They brought over games that likely wouldn't have been brought over by even other niche publishers.
Some of those games were questionable choices that probably got the sales they deserved.
They raised the bar on translations dramatically.
They were slow.
Their pechant to stay with one system hurt them.
So did their slowness.
I honestly hope this isn't the end for Vic. I started on Cosmic Fantasy 2 for the TurboCD, moved to Lunar on the SegaCD, and never looked back since. But I DO hope he has learned some things here that will make him better when he (inevitably) comes back. First, supporting one system is stupid. My buddy has like half a dozen import-only XBox games and FAQs through them just because they are nice looking and have fun mechanics. Also speed is VERY important. Not as important as quality, but I think WD didn't place enough emphasis on it. and beside harping on speed, again I'll harp on systems. If SCEA is slapping you in the face ever time you approach them, try hitting up XBox, or GBA, or DS, or PSP, or even Gamecube (though not so much). To focus on PS2, especially in light of SCEA being utter bitches when it comes to approving localizations, just seems poorly planned.
as I recently found out, what you say isn't true for DS. DS media is programmed after manufacturing. AFAIK there are no minimum batch orders and no crazy lead times (from how I understand it). 3DM ROMs are essentially PROMs.Shouta said:
Red Blaster
Member
borghe said:
I imagine they stuck with Sony because their fanbase was there. Their games would likely bomb six ways to Sunday on the Xbox or Gamecube. Aside the fact that there aren't all that many games that WD could bring over for either of those. They might have been more viable on handhelds though.
their games were niche games no matter hwo you look at it. hardcore gamers bought their games, not casuals. and gamers generally own more than one system. I guarantee you practically everybody who bought a working designs game this gen probably also has (or has had) a gamecube and/or xbox.
Maybe Altus or XSEED will bring it over....jarrod said:He's wrong on lead times for DS at least though, data is written post production like CD-ROMs. Unless Nintendo institutes artificial lead times and minimum orders (which is doubtful as it'd negate the advantages of their new technology), Vic simply hadn't done his homework. Too bad... I woulda like Goemon DS.
Shouta
Member
jarrod said:He's wrong on lead times for DS at least though, data is written post production like CD-ROMs. Unless Nintendo institutes artificial lead times and minimum orders (which is doubtful as it'd negate the advantages of their new technology), Vic simply hadn't done his homework. Too bad... I woulda like Goemon DS.
Wait, what? What does data writing have to do with lead times? I'd imagine that even with Nintendo's technology, that the lead time would be longer than CD or DVD format games by the sheer fact that the DS format isn't as wide spread and that you might have to be in line to get your orders filled.
Vic's concerns aren't just about lead times but also about money for it as well. So I really don't know how the DS's format being different totally would make his statement untrue. Besides, since when have you done manufacturing orders to Nintendo and then to Sony? =P
Not my statement, it's Vic's. I'm just explaining what he said to Hero. I'm assuming there's still a lead time but just not as long (Vic does state a variable number) and there's any number of reasons for a longer lead time than CDs. I'd like to hear what Vic says on it but he hasn't been around here since August.