-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Working Designs is a goner.........
- Thread starter Tenacious-V
- Start date
Lead times are (generally for game platforms) the result of data being written during maufacturing for mask ROMs. By allowing data to be written post production (field programmability), manufacturing isn't dependant on specific orders and thus speeds up the whole cycle while eliminating inventory management, minimum order rquirements and heavy set-up costs. It's the exact same model as CD/DVD use.Shouta said:
And 3DM is now used in a variety of products, from content publishing (DS games, Juice Box videos, etc) to blank media (SD format) to embedded solutions (cellphones). SanDisk just bought Matrix Semiconductor actually... I doubt lead times are any more significant that a custom optical format like UMD or GOD. Likely less given the format is being backed by a wide array of companies (who include Nintendo, Microsoft and even Sony fwiw) rather than just Sony or Nintendo/Matsushitsa.
I just expalined it. From a financial perspective for the 3rd party publisher, DS media has more in common with PS2 than GBA.Shouta said:
Has Vic?Shouta said:
Shouta
Member
jarrod said:
Ooh, interesting. Even so, wouldn't you still need to put in orders and have to wait for it to be filled out? Wouldn't limited production facilities and many product orders create a lead time?
Also, you're assuming that the lead times are the same as disc-based media based on the technology right?
jarrod said:
Err, you didn't say anything about how order payments are handled just how it's produced =p. Even then, though it ties back into the production model.
jarrod said:Has Vic?
Good point however Vic's in a position to inquire about making orders which means he can get estimates about how long it would take even if he hasn't produced anything. I'm assuming the thought of DS production crossed his mind and he inquired about it which is why he said those things.
Well, when you have SanDisk now running production for multiple applications and various industries... I sort of doubt there's much of a supply problem with 3DM.Shouta said:
Using this same logic, should we assume there's even longer lead times for single purpose/platform optical formats like UMD?
More or less. I don't have any insider knowlegde.Shouta said:
Well, I did leave an opening earlier for Nintendo bungling their own technology. It's unlikely, but stranger things have happened.Shouta said:
But you have to realize, the costs traditonally associated with Mask ROM are basically gone now. It's like the move to CD-ROM really, it's the production cycle itself that makes the format more financially viable than anything. How it's instituted can have some effect sure, but technology is the driving factor here.
I'm not too sure about that. He's generally given the DS the cold shoulder.Shouta said:
Mario_Hugo
Lisa Edelstein's dad touched my private parts. True fact.
Lunar: The Silver Star was perhaps my finest gaming experience of all time. Thank You.
It is, I´ll say again, SCEA shouldn´t be there to make work harder to any company.
I don´t know what would have happened if SCEA would have put no problems to Working Designs, but it happened in that way, so from my viewpoint, the maximum responsible for this is the approval team, who put unnecesary problems to the company and delayed its work imposing packs, less profitable and more time demanding, thing very damaging for a company like this one.
What he said. Sony has been an absolute dick on smaller company projects (WD, SNK, etc) but yet lets licensed game after licensed game after licensed game through by Activision and EA. It has nothing to do with game quality or value. it is about sony trying to maximize their profits from licensing. At least LotR: The Briss guarantees sony probably 70-100K copies.
borghe said:
Yes, God forbid they attempt to maximize profits while doing BUSINESS.
So you people honestly think that only putting out a game every couple years wasn't hurting WD just as much, if not more, than the hurdles they were attempting to jump with Sony? That the run they had where you could ONLY buy the premium pack if you wanted their games didn't hurt them? That constant delays to the point of releasing games that were announced at the BEGINNING of a system cycle actually came out after the system was pretty much dead (see Lunar 2 on the Sega CD, Rayearth on the Saturn, Arc the Lad on the PS1) didn't hurt them?
Come on. Sony roadblocks might have had a bit to do with it (though most people probably would have figured out to simply move on, rather than fighting over a shitty game half a decade old), but Working Designs has been digging themselves deeper and deeper for over 10 years now. If not for the realitively surprise success of Lunar on the PS1, I'm betting they'd have been long gone already.
Any company should have the right to commit it´s own mistakes. SCEA approval team is not there to make business, is there to control the products have a minimum quality and workability and no offensive content. That work that way in Japan and Europe, why SCEA is different?
So, what profits and business? It´s not their concern.
The truth is, beyond the mistakes of a company so particular as WD, it was the lack of interest of SCEA and the added of unnecesary dificulties they put to the team was has drive them to the closing. As you say WD has been always this way, why do you think is now when they close? they always runed this type of way and there is not a lot more niche publishers in America for what I know to understand they have too much competence.
obviously SCEA rejections weren't the only thing that lead to this. they were obviously approved on games that they took forever to release.stewy said:
my (our?) point with SCEA is that they blocked games from WD (and others) that hurt those companies. They blocked those games while ALLOWING the plethora of mediocre licensed titles from big publishers like EA and Activision. And it is funny that you mention Sony profits in all of this, because by BLOCKING those games from WD, SNK et al, they are LOSING money. So why does SCEA block them? So Need For Speed: Debbie Does America gets three facing slots at Best Buy instead of only two.
Don't turn this into a grass is greener on the other side debate.
It isn't.
SCEI will approve just about anything for release in Japan as long as there isn't any nudity.
As a result, there are a whole lot of awful, unplayable, low-budget Japanese PS2 games in which the developers clearly put no effort into.
I honestly believe this is one of the reasons why the Japanese video game market collapsed in 2001.
SCEA goes too far in the opposite direction, but the fact remains that the North American gaming market is healthy while the Japanese market continues to shrink.
It isn't.
SCEI will approve just about anything for release in Japan as long as there isn't any nudity.
As a result, there are a whole lot of awful, unplayable, low-budget Japanese PS2 games in which the developers clearly put no effort into.
I honestly believe this is one of the reasons why the Japanese video game market collapsed in 2001.
SCEA goes too far in the opposite direction, but the fact remains that the North American gaming market is healthy while the Japanese market continues to shrink.
Yes, because NA market doesn´t have "awful, unplayable and low budget" games... Both markets are full of shitty games, that is a poor excuse.
And the argument that Japanese market is stucked because of that would imply that sooner or later what will happen with the NA market. I doubt a lot that among lot of reasons that try to explain that situation in Japan, low-budget games are one of them.
Don´t fool yourself, SCEA does a poor job based on first impressions and visuals about what can be released or not. They don´t check the "quality" of a game to see if it´s good enough or not because they are not able to do such thing.
The only difference is that SCE Japan and Europe understand what their mission it is. SCEA doen´t get it at all.
This is complete horseshit. While there are times when SCEA gets on their "high horse" when they release a huge title (they expected one of our racing games to be just as good as GT4, even though our budget was a fraction of theirs, and our development cycle years shorter), they generally don't get in the way of low-budget/non-AAA titles. Especially now, when PS2 market penetration is so high, it's good for them to release cheap $500k budget games to sell at places like Wal-Mart, Costco, supermarkets, etc. The PS1 had all those "Simple" games, too... and the SNES had crap like Super Widget and Crash Test Dummies. Let's not try to pretend that bad software is more of an issue now than it's been in the past.SKOPE said:
I remember there was an article a few years ago about the diminishing market in Japan. I think one of the main points is they said most of the gamers that grew up in the golden age of Space Invaders, Pac-Man, and the NES, are now in their 30's or 40's, with families, mortgages, and other expenses/interests. It seems like most kids/teens in Japan would rather talk on their cellphones, IM, browse, and play cellphone games than sit at home with their consoles. I'm in my 30's, and while I'll love games until the day I die, I've certainly stopped buying them with the regularity that I did in the 8-bit, 16-bit, and 32-bit eras.
Shouta
Member
jarrod said:
Yeah, I'd assume there's longer lead times for something like UMD compared to CD/DVD pressing.
jarrod said:
We should find some insiders.
jarrod said:
Just because he's not hot on the DS doesn't mean the thought hasn't crossed his mind. He did mention something abotu that Goemon DS game awhile back.
I didn't mean to imply low budget games were the only reason why the Japanese video game market collapsed--indeed, I wrote one of the reasons--but I do believe it was a major factor.ghibli99 said:
Aging fanbases, constant sequels and knockoffs, used game sales, collectible card games, and the rise of mobile phones played their parts as well.
With the deluxe packaging on Lunar 1&2, WD wasn't fighting for equal shelf space. They wanted to stand out from the crowd. And with 220,000 and 170,000 sales, they did. Those numbers may seem low when you compare them to the million-selling Final Fantasy games, but they beat probably 90% of the RPGs on the PSone, and I remember Vic once saying they were the biggest success in the history of WD. Standing apart from the crowd worked for them, and IIRC, SCEA didn't even want to let them do that at the time.ferricide said:
Arc the Lad Collection was overpriced, and it obviously hurt the game's sales. But it was three games, and there was no way WD was going to sell it for $50. So we had a choice. Do we want to pay a premium for a plain old 3-game bundle that doesn't do much to stand out? Or do we want to pay a premium for a deluxe box set? Vic figured the choice was obvious, so he made it for us. In hindsight, a lower price could only have helped, but by how much? Skipping the extras wouldn't have done anything about the core issue, which was putting three of WD's eggs in one SCEA-imposed basket.
The "LE" and "standard" versions of Growlanser were said to be a test, to see how people really felt about the deluxe packaging. But the LE version was produced in smaller numbers, and both versions eventually sold out (the LE one did first), so I guess one can only ask Vic what conclusions he came away from the test with.
Oh no... this is crushing news. I know that their... relevancy has dropped in recent years, but they still are a significant part of my RPG gaming landscape, particularly the early years. I'll never forget them.
Much <3 and good luck on future endeavours! :/
Much <3 and good luck on future endeavours! :/
IIRC, Vic once said that the reason Growlanser Generations was Growlanser 2+3 instead of Growlanser 1+2+3 is because Growlanser 1 is a PSone game, and SCEA flat-out refused to allow them to release a PSone game in a PS2 box.Hero said:
(Not that adding another game to Growlanser Generations would've been the best idea, but WD was considering it.)
At one point WD was going to release the superior PC version of Lunar 1, but they never got around to it, so they just made another reprinting of Lunar 1 for the PSX with new disc art.
Quick question...
Do Sony and Microsoft let publishers stamp/print/whatever themselves, or do the discs have to be pressed by Sony/Microsoft or "an approved duplication facility"?
I'm asking as I know both Sony and MS have (limited) forms of copy protection on their discs, and that would seem to require disc production at a facility approved by either Sony or MS. My understanding was that Nintendo pressed all GameCube discs themselves, and I was assuming that MS/Sony had a similar policy... you don't want to let Joe McDVD in on all your copy protection secrets, afterall.
Do Sony and Microsoft let publishers stamp/print/whatever themselves, or do the discs have to be pressed by Sony/Microsoft or "an approved duplication facility"?
I'm asking as I know both Sony and MS have (limited) forms of copy protection on their discs, and that would seem to require disc production at a facility approved by either Sony or MS. My understanding was that Nintendo pressed all GameCube discs themselves, and I was assuming that MS/Sony had a similar policy... you don't want to let Joe McDVD in on all your copy protection secrets, afterall.
But what about other custom fomats? Don't PS2/Xbox DVDs need to be pressed Sony/MS or their partners? Can a 3rd party publisher contract anyone to do it with their custom platform encryptions?Shouta said:
I'm all for that.Shouta said:We should find some insiders.
Only when I'd press him nonstop here on the forum, even then he'd never express interest in actually having WD publish it. All I've ever heard Vic say about Goemon DS of his own volition was that it was the single reason he was still keeping his DS.... then he'd talk about buying PSPs for his kids. :/Shouta said:
I also respected WD for the risks they took and thier saturn collection is top notch (hugs dragon force), however I'm still bitter that they screwed over sega fans with the lunar games..lunar was born on a sega machine and the saturn versions of lunar imo were dfinately superior to the psx (minus the fmv). This generation was a real failur for them...they released next to nothing, and what they did release was pretty mediocre.
Its still sad to see them go.
Its still sad to see them go.
ruby_onix said:
The hell? Are you serious? Stupidest thing I've ever heard of. How do they let so many other compilations come out then? They could've just called it 'LUNAR COLLECTION COMPLETE'.
Even so, I bet a third reprint of Lunar would've made more money than almost every release they did this gen.
It's cool... in the context of your message, that's what I was getting out of it, and it wasn't clicking with me, since a wealth of bad games have been around since the beginning.SKOPE said:
On the point of card games, it'd be interesting to see if stuff like Pokemon, Yugioh, et al. made any significant dent in videogame sales. Seems that most kids that play them play videogames, too.
But at least you know what are you buying and at what prize, with the bonus that sometimes there is something interesting.
In NA and Europe there are lot of full prized crap, mostly from licenses and games as broken as most of the Simple 2000 series with the only plus of sightly improved production values that at the end doen´t mean anything for a player.
And even if we went deep on the catalogue and Japan was "winner" in crappy games, that doesn´t mean a lot. At least Sony Japan let some small studios make fast money and run their business, that is the opposite that SCEA and my main concern. None of them are good enough to evaluate if a game is good or bad, but in Japan they understand that and in America don´t, and what is worse, they just run for some aesthetic rules about what it "feels" like a PS2 game.
Well, since D3 Publisher recently opened a US arm (link), I'm afraid we might see garbage from the Simple series ooze outside the confines of Japan as well... I mean, their first announced US title was a Cabbage Patch Kids game. :lolSho Nuff said:
They are releasing Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen on the GC, though, so hopefully they'll keep a filter on over here with regards to what the parent company publishes in Japan.
ok, there's some illogic and misinformation going on here.
(a) how would putting growlanser 1 in GG have helped anything? it would have been THREE games for the price of one instead of two. this is why they went out of business!
(b) anyone who thinks that japan doesn't have more shitty games than we do clearly hasn't been to japan. there are so many infinitely shitty PS2 games souring the shelves there you can't even see the decent shit.
(c) at E3, vic himself told me that the PC port of lunar was too shitty to put out, which is why it didn't come out. and guess what -- a PC port of an old, 2D PS1 game with a punching puppet wouldn't have saved the company.
the point is not what WD did that was COOL and AWESOME and FAN ORIENTED! sure, we loved them for that shit, but in the context of why they went out of business, it's their huge, glaring mistakes -- and all of thsee things would have just contributed to a faster downfall.
(a) how would putting growlanser 1 in GG have helped anything? it would have been THREE games for the price of one instead of two. this is why they went out of business!
(b) anyone who thinks that japan doesn't have more shitty games than we do clearly hasn't been to japan. there are so many infinitely shitty PS2 games souring the shelves there you can't even see the decent shit.
(c) at E3, vic himself told me that the PC port of lunar was too shitty to put out, which is why it didn't come out. and guess what -- a PC port of an old, 2D PS1 game with a punching puppet wouldn't have saved the company.
the point is not what WD did that was COOL and AWESOME and FAN ORIENTED! sure, we loved them for that shit, but in the context of why they went out of business, it's their huge, glaring mistakes -- and all of thsee things would have just contributed to a faster downfall.
ferricide said:
QFT. WD was cool and awesome and they were also really bad at business. I wish they could've suceeded, however, I do not believe the gaming market is ready for such a company yet. If I could've told Vic anything years ago it would be "LET THE FREAKIN' GOEMON THING GO ALREADY!!!" (well that and the secret to making money is shipping product more than a few times a generation)
Aizu_Itsuko
Member
Well, I'm not going to get involved in the "who's to blame?" and "where is this industry going?" debate.
All I know is that thanks to WD I've got the chance to experience some truly awesome titles the last few gens, and the way they always treated us, the gamers, has always made my heart warm and my face smile. In a world populated by big franchises and big budget "who do I shoot this week?" games, every time I purchased a WD I felt the same way I felt when I was a kid with a nes cart in my hand. And I truly appreciate that.
Cheers, guys. Don't let this discourage you, as we're still here. And if you just one day decide it's time for a change and leave, do it knowing that you will be remembered and missed.
All I know is that thanks to WD I've got the chance to experience some truly awesome titles the last few gens, and the way they always treated us, the gamers, has always made my heart warm and my face smile. In a world populated by big franchises and big budget "who do I shoot this week?" games, every time I purchased a WD I felt the same way I felt when I was a kid with a nes cart in my hand. And I truly appreciate that.
Cheers, guys. Don't let this discourage you, as we're still here. And if you just one day decide it's time for a change and leave, do it knowing that you will be remembered and missed.
well, he said it right there. he fucked up on growlanser. it sucks that it took closing the company for him to realize this.
hopefully he can learn, get a cash infusion, and come back some day soon with their two games a year like he said.. especially now that he is on the DS train.
hopefully he can learn, get a cash infusion, and come back some day soon with their two games a year like he said.. especially now that he is on the DS train.
Since when do we really care what GameFAQS polls have to say about WD?
You know WD did a great job translating when you play other companies' games, and you think, "Man, I wish Vic and co. did this."
I'm sure it would've elevated both Grandia and Grandia 2 to such high levels. And lord knows I'd try the latest Lunar if their logo were on it.
You know WD did a great job translating when you play other companies' games, and you think, "Man, I wish Vic and co. did this."
I'm sure it would've elevated both Grandia and Grandia 2 to such high levels. And lord knows I'd try the latest Lunar if their logo were on it.