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[TheYanger]

It's too late to go back and claim you aren't elitist; I mean, you once argued that subs would rise if the game was harder. It's inherently an elitist point to care at all about a mount. I don't see how you can argue that point without crossing that territory - it's the functional equivalent of Donald Trump arguing the lottery should be illegal. It's just a mount. Let people have their fun. It doesn't ruin yours unless you're a psychopath.

The idea that the game has lost subs because it rewards 0 effort isn't unique to me, sorry to say. It was even in the gamasutra interview last week. And you're the one sitting here arguing with me about a mount, does that make you an elitist too? It goes both ways.

Working months to down 7/7 is a lot of effort. They should be able to get rewarded with a 1% mount at least.

No what you need is a reward for skill. You get that with gear and a 100% mount.

You should argue for a different texture in the heroic 100%, not that the people who spend months of their lives in normal mode shouldn't get shit like a prick.

Working months to down 7/7 is the least effort it has ever taken to raid successfully right now. Rag is a step up from T11 normal modes, but all in all firelands is not a very difficult zone on normal. That's not to belittle people that do it, it's clear that Rag is a challenging fight and people DO deserve rewards for doing it, however those rewards are called LOOT, and satisfaction. You claim people who do it on heroic probably deserve to at least have a different texture or something? Those are cosmetic rewards, which is EXACTLY what the mounts are. See the point? cosmetic rewards for heroic are what I'm talking about. But there's little point to a cosmetic reward if you ALSO get it for running the non-heroic.

That would be like if you could get the 100% completion shirt in Vice City for getting 100% in the game...OR for just randomly walking into one of the stores 100 times waiting for it to be there. When it comes to cosmetic rewards their exclusivity is inherantly part of their appeal.

You never see anyone from Paragon/Ensidia/etc. arguing this point because people who are legitimately at the top of their game don't actually need that kind of kudos because they don't care.

Last I checked, people from every top end guild regularly blog about the casualization of wow and how it affects the game. Maybe not this SPECIFIC issue (And to be fair, the only reason it's even prominent here is because it just happened to be discussed. The firebird is not some OMG HOT BUTTON TOPIC for me, but the entitled attitudes from people is, and it represents that well). On Mal'ganis, there are more people with 1% drop firebirds than 100% drop firebirds. That's absolutely pathetic and represents a problem with the reward structure inherant to raiding. Make them different colors or something, shit. is it that hard?

Anyway, point was, everyone bitches about the game rewarding barely playing almost as heavily as playing at your peak, they just don't post here on gaf. If you actually read other forums, you'd have seen the massively long post about why the dungeon journal is going to destroy the game on the official wow boards, started by someone from Premo and containing posts by literally every member of the guild, because some people care about their hobbies.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The idea that the game has lost subs because it rewards 0 effort isn't unique to me, sorry to say. It was even in the gamasutra interview last week. And you're the one sitting here arguing with me about a mount, does that make you an elitist too? It goes both ways.


Working months to down 7/7 is the least effort it has ever taken to raid successfully right now. Rag is a step up from T11 normal modes, but all in all firelands is not a very difficult zone on normal. That's not to belittle people that do it, it's clear that Rag is a challenging fight and people DO deserve rewards for doing it, however those rewards are called LOOT, and satisfaction. You claim people who do it on heroic probably deserve to at least have a different texture or something? Those are cosmetic rewards, which is EXACTLY what the mounts are. See the point? cosmetic rewards for heroic are what I'm talking about. But there's little point to a cosmetic reward if you ALSO get it for running the non-heroic.

That would be like if you could get the 100% completion shirt in Vice City for getting 100% in the game...OR for just randomly walking into one of the stores 100 times waiting for it to be there. When it comes to cosmetic rewards their exclusivity is inherantly part of their appeal.



Last I checked, people from every top end guild regularly blog about the casualization of wow and how it affects the game. Maybe not this SPECIFIC issue (And to be fair, the only reason it's even prominent here is because it just happened to be discussed. The firebird is not some OMG HOT BUTTON TOPIC for me, but the entitled attitudes from people is, and it represents that well). On Mal'ganis, there are more people with 1% drop firebirds than 100% drop firebirds. That's absolutely pathetic and represents a problem with the reward structure inherant to raiding. Make them different colors or something, shit. is it that hard?

Anyway, point was, everyone bitches about the game rewarding barely playing almost as heavily as playing at your peak, they just don't post here on gaf. If you actually read other forums, you'd have seen the massively long post about why the dungeon journal is going to destroy the game on the official wow boards, started by someone from Premo and containing posts by literally every member of the guild, because some people care about their hobbies.

Except the problem is you base that theory on absolutely nothing. It's just a wild guess, even if other elitists think it. There's no basis at all to believe there are more or less subs for any particular reason because even Blizzard doesn't know.

And as with your argument about Millagazor dropping from 5 mans, the argument about getting the "100% completion" shirt by "walking into a store" isn't even remotely analogous by any possible standard. It's a strawman plain and simple.

The fact that you're bitching about a 1% drop is what makes your argument little more than whining. You still have the Firelord title, so why do you need to ruin everyone else's fun to have fun yourself?

 

[TheYanger]

Except the problem is you base that theory on absolutely nothing. It's just a wild guess, even if other elitists think it. There's no basis at all to believe there are more or less subs for any particular reason because even Blizzard doesn't know.

And as with your argument about Millagazor dropping from 5 mans, the argument about getting the "100% completion" shirt by "walking into a store" isn't even remotely analogous by any possible standard. It's a strawman plain and simple.

The fact that you're bitching about a 1% drop is what makes your argument little more than whining. You still have the Firelord title, so why do you need to ruin everyone else's fun to have fun yourself?

You still don't get it, by saying I'm ruining other people's fun, you're just as vain as you purport me to be: If the possibility of getting the mount isn't there, do those people have less fun? Presumably those who want the mount aren't concerned with killing normal Rag. There should ALWAYS be carrots to drive players to want to play harder and better.

As for my 'theory' being based on nothing....Says who? Do you really want me to turn in a multi-page essay about the direction of the game, the need for goals, and the apathy that sets in when goals require no effort and aren't rewarded properly? There were FAR more subs during the periods of the game where it was both harder, and less accessible, because people had things to drive them forward. Everyone always had content to consume and had something they were working on. Now, everyone always consumes all content (Note, these two things are VASTLY different) and is left waiting for the next patch, causing cancellations. Even simple things like rep grinds to improve your character gave casuals things to do. You had DOZENS of guilds on every server moving steadily at their own pace through content instead of being shuffled into the next zone once a new patch hit.

The current model rewards doing nothing, You can not go into firelands ONCE, and by the next tier just farm up some VP gear, some JP gear, and be ready to go. In fact, if you haven't done firelands by the time 4.3 hits it will likely NEVER be a worthwhile thing for you to do. How is that better than the old model, where you had something to achieve in the sense that you could work through the current zone to be ABLE to do the next one? Badge gear was used as a supplement in BC, and it could absolutely not replace entire tiers of content, but could easily boost someone through them. It could fill in gaps in equipment, and spread over multiple tiers it made catching up a reality. People like to claim that you could never catch up back then, but that was absolute horse shit. We used to do alt runs every weekend, and I personally got many alts from zero to hero in relatively little time, because badge gear boosted you WHILE you worked up through the content, instead of badges being a grind that shuttled you past it by running ZA/ZG over and over again (Oh yeah, and since badges were rewards FROM raiding, yes 5 mans as well but not nearly as many, making raiding more efficient in all ways, this was way less tedious to do back then). Juggernaut rerolled before pvp transfers were open, and went from being on M'uru to rerolling, to being BACK on M'uru and finishing Sunwell within just a few weeks. They did that zone in greens and blues, which tells me that the 'OH YOU CANT CATCH UP' was always a strawman argument. Skill is the deciding factor in progressing at this game, gear is important but it's not THAT important.

The decline of dilineation among raiding guilds has completely killed server communities and many of the guilds themselves, a guild that takes itself seriously but isn't at the top of its game is no longer a guild with a purpose (That role is filled by casual guilds who aren't going to emphasize that kind of progression. This is completely fine, but there's no in between). There's no point in being a guild that can get MOST of the content down before the next patch, you either finish it or you wasted your time because the next dungeon is going to hit and badge farming + normal modes will completely invalidate your efforts. That's fucking demoralizing. Guilds in that position crumble. When guilds crumble, players quit the game. Friendships and community keep people playing, they're the heart and soul of wow, things like the dungeon finder, the upcoming raid finder, normal modes, 10/25 split...all of this stuff is churned out and it makes EVERYTHING less personal, and that dissolves attachments people would have previously had. Of course there are less subs because of the game being 'easier'. At it's core, WoW is a fun game, but it's 7 years old, when you remove the community aspects (which are all formed because you are stronger together than seperately, and that is rapidly no longer true) it is an aging game and people can find better things to do.

 

[Bisnic]

I feel like i entered a thread from the official WoW forums with all the bitching in here.

I wish i never asked that question about the fire version of the Anzu mount. :lol

 

[Angry Grimace]

You still don't get it, by saying I'm ruining other people's fun, you're just as vain as you purport me to be: If the possibility of getting the mount isn't there, do those people have less fun? Presumably those who want the mount aren't concerned with killing normal Rag. There should ALWAYS be carrots to drive players to want to play harder and better.

As for my 'theory' being based on nothing....Says who? Do you really want me to turn in a multi-page essay about the direction of the game, the need for goals, and the apathy that sets in when goals require no effort and aren't rewarded properly? There were FAR more subs during the periods of the game where it was both harder, and less accessible, because people had things to drive them forward. Everyone always had content to consume and had something they were working on. Now, everyone always consumes all content (Note, these two things are VASTLY different) and is left waiting for the next patch, causing cancellations. Even simple things like rep grinds to improve your character gave casuals things to do. You had DOZENS of guilds on every server moving steadily at their own pace through content instead of being shuffled into the next zone once a new patch hit.

The current model rewards doing nothing, You can not go into firelands ONCE, and by the next tier just farm up some VP gear, some JP gear, and be ready to go. In fact, if you haven't done firelands by the time 4.3 hits it will likely NEVER be a worthwhile thing for you to do. How is that better than the old model, where you had something to achieve in the sense that you could work through the current zone to be ABLE to do the next one? Badge gear was used as a supplement in BC, and it could absolutely not replace entire tiers of content, but could easily boost someone through them. It could fill in gaps in equipment, and spread over multiple tiers it made catching up a reality. People like to claim that you could never catch up back then, but that was absolute horse shit. We used to do alt runs every weekend, and I personally got many alts from zero to hero in relatively little time, because badge gear boosted you WHILE you worked up through the content, instead of badges being a grind that shuttled you past it by running ZA/ZG over and over again (Oh yeah, and since badges were rewards FROM raiding, yes 5 mans as well but not nearly as many, making raiding more efficient in all ways, this was way less tedious to do back then). Juggernaut rerolled before pvp transfers were open, and went from being on M'uru to rerolling, to being BACK on M'uru and finishing Sunwell within just a few weeks. They did that zone in greens and blues, which tells me that the 'OH YOU CANT CATCH UP' was always a strawman argument. Skill is the deciding factor in progressing at this game, gear is important but it's not THAT important.

The decline of dilineation among raiding guilds has completely killed server communities and many of the guilds themselves, a guild that takes itself seriously but isn't at the top of its game is no longer a guild with a purpose (That role is filled by casual guilds who aren't going to emphasize that kind of progression. This is completely fine, but there's no in between). There's no point in being a guild that can get MOST of the content down before the next patch, you either finish it or you wasted your time because the next dungeon is going to hit and badge farming + normal modes will completely invalidate your efforts. That's fucking demoralizing. Guilds in that position crumble. When guilds crumble, players quit the game. Friendships and community keep people playing, they're the heart and soul of wow, things like the dungeon finder, the upcoming raid finder, normal modes, 10/25 split...all of this stuff is churned out and it makes EVERYTHING less personal, and that dissolves attachments people would have previously had. Of course there are less subs because of the game being 'easier'. At it's core, WoW is a fun game, but it's 7 years old, when you remove the community aspects (which are all formed because you are stronger together than seperately, and that is rapidly no longer true) it is an aging game and people can find better things to do.

Listen, I just can't read that and I'm not going to give it a reasoned response either. There is no possible way you needed four textwall paragraphs to posit a response.

The only thing I can really say is that your entire argument is reliant on speculation because there simply is no way to have access to the facts you purport to rely on.

 

[TheYanger]

Listen, I just can't read that and I'm not going to give it a reasoned response either. There is no possible way you needed four textwall paragraphs to posit a response.

The only thing I can really say is that your entire argument is reliant on speculation because there simply is no way to have access to the facts you purport to rely on.

Nice retort. your entire counterargument is reliant on speculation because there is simply no way to have access to the facts you purport to rely on.

Difference: I posted the reasoning behind mine. You just gave up.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Nice retort. your entire counterargument is reliant on speculation because there is simply no way to have access to the facts you purport to rely on.

Difference: I posted the reasoning behind mine. You just gave up.

No, the difference is that you're taking your own opinion about Warcraft, and claiming that what you think is what all the people who quit the game think, and then claiming to know what the sub numbers are at a given time, when it's patent that you don't.

 

[TheYanger]

No, the difference is that you're taking your own opinion about Warcraft, and claiming that what you think is what all the people who quit the game think, and then claiming to know what the sub numbers are at a given time, when it's patent that you don't.

You're so flippant it's insane. I'm not saying I know what ALL THE PEOPLE who quit think, but I certainly know what a fair few think (Basically every raider I've ever known), and ....yeah, I do know the sub numbers at given times. Blizz gives those out. Shit is public knowledge.

 

[ShadyMilkman]

Except the problem is you base that theory on absolutely nothing. It's just a wild guess, even if other elitists think it. There's no basis at all to believe there are more or less subs for any particular reason because even Blizzard doesn't know.

And as with your argument about Millagazor dropping from 5 mans, the argument about getting the "100% completion" shirt by "walking into a store" isn't even remotely analogous by any possible standard. It's a strawman plain and simple.

The fact that you're bitching about a 1% drop is what makes your argument little more than whining. You still have the Firelord title, so why do you need to ruin everyone else's fun to have fun yourself?

If ruining someone's fun is the expectation that said person puts forth the necessary effort to earn what they want, then yes, I want their fun ruined.

Everyone has the opportunity to be "elite". If you can't, or won't, then sorry, tough shit.

 

[Angry Grimace]

You're so flippant it's insane. I'm not saying I know what ALL THE PEOPLE who quit think, but I certainly know what a fair few think (Basically every raider I've ever known), and ....yeah, I do know the sub numbers at given times. Blizz gives those out. Shit is public knowledge.

A number doesn't prove a fact. The point is that you're attaching some kind of significance to it that you can't possibly have unless you're omiscient.

Frankly, it's ironic that you're demanding the game be far more exclusionary but at the same time making a completely contradictory argument about the game's subscribers. It's logic defying.

As an aside, I can't say I'm shocked you name dropped yet another guild nobody's ever heard or cares about in that crazy long post. WE GET IT YOU'RE AWESOME. Stop already.

 

[TheYanger]

A number doesn't prove a fact. The point is that you're attaching some kind of significance to it that you can't possibly have unless you're omiscient.

Frankly, it's ironic that you're demanding the game be far more exclusionary but at the same time making a completely contradictory argument about the game's subscribers. It's logic defying.

I'm arguing that the game is MORE inclusive when it's got a sense of progression and difficulty. Less people will see Sunwell, but more people will participate in Kara, Gruul, Magtheridon, TK, SSC, BT, MH.... That's the BC model. The current model discourages participation in anything at all besides ZG and ZA. It's the epitome of boring and it absolutely leaves those who don't raid on the cutting edge with little to do in the game.

You're ridiculous, you're taking a theory, an argument on my part, and dismissing it because you think I'm passing it off as a fact. I obviously believe it's true, or I wouldn't say it, but of course I can't just point to some specific fact sheet and be done with it, if I could I wouldn't have to explain the argument or back it up in the first place.

At this point, I've given my reasoning, you've just sat there flapping your lips. Put up or shut up at some point. I'm done responding to anything that isn't actually reasoned and can address my points of contention rather than just insulting me as a person.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'm arguing that the game is MORE inclusive when it's got a sense of progression and difficulty. Less people will see Sunwell, but more people will participate in Kara, Gruul, Magtheridon, TK, SSC, BT, MH.... That's the BC model. The current model discourages participation in anything at all besides ZG and ZA. It's the epitome of boring and it absolutely leaves those who don't raid on the cutting edge with little to do in the game.

You're ridiculous, you're taking a theory, an argument on my part, and dismissing it because you think I'm passing it off as a fact. I obviously believe it's true, or I wouldn't say it, but of course I can't just point to some specific fact sheet and be done with it, if I could I wouldn't have to explain the argument or back it up in the first place.

At this point, I've given my reasoning, you've just sat there flapping your lips. Put up or shut up at some point. I'm done responding to anything that isn't actually reasoned and can address my points of contention rather than just insulting me as a person.

I don't know what to tell you. You're asking me to argue an illusory point based on an unlikely hypothetical and then dropping snide insults in to try and goad me to thinking your argument has any merit at all.

 

[Subliminal]

WoW Drama!

P.s I should be able to get T12 Chest Tomorrow! Fuck yeaaah!

 

[th3dude]

Sometimes it's difficult to follow this thread. I'm at level 68 on my first character, so most of the time I have no clue what you guys are talking about since I haven't seen any 'end game' stuff.

 

[Bisnic]

Sometimes it's difficult to follow this thread. I'm at level 68 on my first character, so most of the time I have no clue what you guys are talking about since I haven't seen any 'end game' stuff.

Trust me, it's better that way. You'll enjoy the game more if you don't take end game too seriously like some people.

Once your character is 85, just level another one on the opposite faction to see their side, rather than dealing with end game. More interesting that way.

 

[th3dude]

Trust me, it's better that way. You'll enjoy the game more if you don't take end game too seriously like some people.

Once your character is 85, just level another one on the opposite faction to see their side, rather than dealing with end game. More interesting that way.

Doesn't sound like a bad idea, but one thing I feel like I'm missing out on is caring about gear, professions, etc. I've been pretty much doing quests, dungeons, etc and I just keep throwing out gear every time to wear the slightly better stuff I got. I want to actually try to build decent sets, etc and start collecting other things. I feel like I can't do any of this until I hit 85.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Sometimes it's difficult to follow this thread. I'm at level 68 on my first character, so most of the time I have no clue what you guys are talking about since I haven't seen any 'end game' stuff.

Just enjoy the experience the first time through now. It's something you'll only truly get to experience once. Yeah it's different if you choose a different class/race/faction/zones to level in, but the journey will be more mechanical then.

I wouldn't say it's true all the time, but you'll probably find more bliss being ignorant of a lot of the things in game the first time through - you aren't as critical. You'll always have other players or patch notes to learn what things were like at a specific point in the game's history if you want to know.

Oh, and be thankful that you aren't really locked into one character. Before you have a max level character that has started doing a lot of things, you can easily switch classes if you decide to. Leveling is a fraction of the amount of time you can spend playing a character (though it's certainly longer the first time through.)

I would love to main one of my other characters for awhile, but I'm sort of stuck with my DK because of all the achievements, feats of strength, and rare mounts, so none of my other characters could be more than a glorified alt to me with the game the way it is now. Maybe if I convinced myself really hard, but that would mean shelving a character with 35+ days /played for one with only 20, 15, or less. There would go all the dungeon/raid achievements (at relevant times), all the 30+ exalted reps, etc.

 

[Bisnic]

Doesn't sound like a bad idea, but one thing I feel like I'm missing out on is caring about gear, professions, etc. I've been pretty much doing quests, dungeons, etc and I just keep throwing out gear every time to wear the slightly better stuff I got. I want to actually try to build decent sets, etc and start collecting other things. I feel like I can't do any of this until I hit 85.

Even gear you make through professions is crap compared to what you can get from dungeons at lvl 85, except a few rare occassions like blacksmith weapons.

Collecting mounts, companions and achievements is another alternative for end game too, if you're not into the whole doing the same raids and dungeons again & again. Especially that some random players have little patience with telling new players what to do at high lvls instances.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Even gear you make through professions is crap compared to what you can get from dungeons at lvl 85, except a few rare occassions like blacksmith weapons.

Collecting mounts, companions and achievements is another alternative for end game too, if you're not into the whole doing the same raids and dungeons again & again. Especially that some random players have little patience with telling new players what to do at high lvls instances.

I've been highly considering resubbing to finish Loremaster and the like casually even if don't have time to raid (on a weekly schedule at least). I'll have to see - maybe when I'm not bogged down with schoolwork. I kind of shudder at the thought of redoing my UI though as it hasn't been touched since 4.1 or before, and I know I wouldn't be able to deal with it as I left it.

 

[Bisnic]

I've been highly considering resubbing to finish Loremaster and the like casually even if don't have time to raid (on a weekly schedule at least). I'll have to see - maybe when I'm not bogged down with schoolwork. I kind of shudder at the thought of redoing my UI though as it hasn't been touched since 4.1 or before, and I know I wouldn't be able to deal with it as I left it.

Myself i've been mostly trying to collect some BC gear for when 4.3 will release, there is some nice looking gear in there and it can either be soloed or done with a small group in case of raids.

There is plenty of stuff to do at 85 other than weekly scheduled raids thankfully, or i would have canceled a long time ago. But for some, that particular thing is all that matter.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I've got my shaman as my last character to level. Having a blast just blowing shit away ad enhancement. Stormstrike is just OP at early levels.

it'll be kind if sad after I max him since all my other toons are over 80 and cover all 9 classes.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I'm working on all classes. have 4 85's, 1 84, 3 40's, a 26, and 23. I actually abandoned two 70's on a different server because I'm not paying faction change + server xfer fees and I did nothing that great on them.

 

[Alucrid]

Wow elites vs Wow casuals. Which side do I choose?

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Wow elites vs Wow casuals. Which side do I choose?

You'll get a special mount if you side with the elites. If you side with the casuals you'll be stuck with only some daily quests, I'm afraid.

Spoiler

lol

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Wow elites vs Wow casuals. Which side do I choose?

You're a RPer.

Sometimes I feel bad about being a worgen hunter enslaving a wolf as a pet.

 

[Alucrid]

You'll get a special mount if you side with the elites. If you side with the casuals you'll be stuck with only some daily quests, I'm afraid.

Spoiler

lol

I think the deciding factor is whether or not the casuals have a 1% drop chance of getting said mount. If so, no thanks.

You're a RPer.

Alucrid slowly takes off his pants to reveal a large throbbing

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think the best troll Blizzard could put in the game would be to put Corrupted Ashbringer back in somewhere and just watch some dude with an 8 year old account just nuke it in rage

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

I think the best troll Blizzard could put in the game would be to put Corrupted Ashbringer back in somewhere and just watch some dude with an 8 year old account just nuke it in rage

I still think that's one of the most interesting items in game (model, and the SM event it triggers), and something that I'll probably never see in person. It's an item that's almost worthy of being Legendary, even if it's only an epic.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I still think that's one of the most interesting items in game (model, and the SM event it triggers), and something that I'll probably never see in person. It's an item that's almost worthy of being Legendary, even if it's only an epic.

The only interesting item that's rarer is Atiesh, and there's a really retarded lore reason that's never coming back, i.e. Med'an.

Transmogrification makes me happy I held onto Slayer of the Lifeless, even if it requires little effort to obtain and is a prime target to just be given out for free. I can't say I like the idea of just giving out the sets at the DMF, though. That just seems too easy and pointless. It doesn't seem like the idea is supposed to be just skinning your shit with ANYTHING you want.

 

[Rokam]

Are Atiesh and Corrupted Ashbringer the only 2 items in game that change the dialogue/interaction of certain npcs?

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

The only interesting item that's rarer is Atiesh, and there's a really retarded lore reason that's never coming back, i.e. Med'an.

Transmogrification makes me happy I held onto Slayer of the Lifeless, even if it requires little effort to obtain and is a prime target to just be given out for free. I can't say I like the idea of just giving out the sets at the DMF, though. That just seems too easy and pointless. It doesn't seem like the idea is supposed to be just skinning your shit with ANYTHING you want.

Ooh, that is a good one for a DW DK. Some decent skins out of Naxx like this spellblade http://www.wowhead.com/item=40336#. that would be interesting to use for a melee weapon. Some of the spellblade designs in the past have been pretty good, so seeing them used for melee will be fun. I know Inevitable Defeat is something I might skin, as my first "good" epic weapon. I used that for the longest time - really great weapon with the agility adding armor.

When the feature was first announced, the one weapon that popped into my head that I knew I would want to use is this guy from Black Temple:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=32262#comments

The effect on the weapon is great in-game - screenshots don't do it justice. And I'm sure if I scoured through BC there would be other weapons I would want. Another that comes to mind is the sword from the Ring of Blood as being unique (I think?), though I'm pretty sure I vendored that.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Also worthy of a new post:

From MMO-Champ, The HP of Heroic Ragnaros has been hot-fix nerfed approximately 15%. I think the change is the same for the 10-man too, though it doesn't list the original HP for him there.

Pretty significant.

 

[Mairu]

Also worthy of a new post:

From MMO-Champ, The HP of Heroic Ragnaros has been hot-fix nerfed approximately 15%. I think the change is the same for the 10-man too, though it doesn't list the original HP for him there.

Pretty significant.

I'm excited about killing him this week

 

[mileS]

Solo tamed Deth'tilac tonight! really satisfying after figuring out exactly what to do. It would have been a pain in the ass without entrapment and snake trap though! So i got the 3 rare pets from molten front that I wanted now. Don't really care about the other spiders because they look almost the same as the normal mobs you can tame there.

 

[SteveWD40]

I think (as far as endgame) TBC was the sweet spot:

Normal 5 mans: Some were pretty tricky even on normal, good variety

Heroic 5 mans: some of these were really fecking hard

Kara: a 10 man raid, well designed, loads of bosses, bit too much trash but overall you could have a nice casual 10 man raiding guild running Kara and Heroics and it would be a while before they were all geared in purps.

Gruul / Magi: 2 Ony style boss only raids, good for a more casual guild to team up / practice for the 25 mans, Magi had some nice co-ordination checks.

SSC / TK: The tier that either made or broke your guild as a raiding guild, when you needed it for BT it was a real test but a good one, some great loot and I was happy to say I cleared it pre nerf with my 3 night a week raid guild.

BT: The badass dungeon that most wouldn't see (but not as bad as Naxx was in vanilla)

On top of that you had amazing looking unique gear, if you saw a Rogue with Illidan's eyemask and the war-blades you knew they had worked for it. That's what I liked about WoW in the day, knowing there was always something to strive for or a challenge that was beyond you, I knew I would probably never kill Illidan but I didn't mind, it made the world feel bigger.

I think that's where WoW went wrong, by pandering to the idea that everyone should see everything, removing the need to travel at endgame and flying mounts, the world just feels small and empty now, shame as they can't remove many of those things now they are in.

 

[ampere]

Nice job! We're still working on getting Majordomo, well, we killed him once but it was with two non-guildies.

We have Domo down pretty well for 10, but we've only gotten him down once in 25. Fingers crossed for even getting to Rag 25 this week lol

Congrats on the kill! We're still struggling with him, mainly because we had so much bad luck. Last week, one of our main healer had massive connection issues, and this week, one of our tanks was sick, he insisted he could play but litteraly fell asleep on his keyboard mid raid. Since we don't like filling ou raid spots with non guildies, we called it a night.

Next week should be the one thought!

That's the worst. Connection issues are the biggest pain in the butt for MMOs. Best of luck for this week!

WoW Drama!

P.s I should be able to get T12 Chest Tomorrow! Fuck yeaaah!

What spec are you?

 

[Subliminal]

What spec are you?

BEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRR!!!

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/defias-brotherhood/Arithiana/advanced

 

[Mairu]

I think (as far as endgame) TBC was the sweet spot:

Normal 5 mans: Some were pretty tricky even on normal, good variety

Heroic 5 mans: some of these were really fecking hard

Kara: a 10 man raid, well designed, loads of bosses, bit too much trash but overall you could have a nice casual 10 man raiding guild running Kara and Heroics and it would be a while before they were all geared in purps.

Gruul / Magi: 2 Ony style boss only raids, good for a more casual guild to team up / practice for the 25 mans, Magi had some nice co-ordination checks.

SSC / TK: The tier that either made or broke your guild as a raiding guild, when you needed it for BT it was a real test but a good one, some great loot and I was happy to say I cleared it pre nerf with my 3 night a week raid guild.

BT: The badass dungeon that most wouldn't see (but not as bad as Naxx was in vanilla)

On top of that you had amazing looking unique gear, if you saw a Rogue with Illidan's eyemask and the war-blades you knew they had worked for it. That's what I liked about WoW in the day, knowing there was always something to strive for or a challenge that was beyond you, I knew I would probably never kill Illidan but I didn't mind, it made the world feel bigger.

I think that's where WoW went wrong, by pandering to the idea that everyone should see everything, removing the need to travel at endgame and flying mounts, the world just feels small and empty now, shame as they can't remove many of those things now they are in.

TBC raiding tiers were absolutely fantastic. BT was such a good raid

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

TBC raiding tiers were absolutely fantastic. BT was such a good raid

It still holds up fantastically. I think I've wiped in there a couple times even at 80 (Definitely have in Sunwell.) Someone always dies in that hallway leading up to the Reliquary of Souls (hell, even possible to wipe on that if you don't explain it well.) Though some other raids there's environmental trash stuff you could wipe on as well if you were going through it with people who never did the content before. (Though at this point, I think it would be harder to find people who hadn't done at least some Wrath content, compared to people who didn't progress far or weren't around for BC, like me.)

 

[davepoobond]

i just think its funny how they wanted to do more instances but keep bosses to around 10 or so per tier, but ended up only have 7 for firelands, and that was the only raid.

just sounds like they need to go back to their normal model of one big raid of 12 or so bosses since it takes more work to design a whole new dungeon than to put in a new wing. and it is apparently one or the other.

 

[TheYanger]

i just think its funny how they wanted to do more instances but keep bosses to around 10 or so per tier, but ended up only have 7 for firelands, and that was the only raid.

just sounds like they need to go back to their normal model of one big raid of 12 or so bosses since it takes more work to design a whole new dungeon than to put in a new wing. and it is apparently one or the other.

Given the choice between 7 bosses every 6 months and 14-15 every year I'd still stick with the former tbh, the long breaks for icc and BT were crushing. But...yeah, ideally it's like 10-11 every 6 months instead of them just being lazy and not releasing one of the intended zones.

Rag nerf is reasonably big, I think a lot of people overestimate how easy it will make things. Obviously it's easier (You could feasibly do 2 seeds 1 meteor, though for a guild just learning it I highly doubt either will happen) but it's not gonna just fall over still. EJB forums are full of people that were close to a kill talking about how pissed they are, but I feel like multiple months with only 7 US kills is pretty effing bad and it needed to happen, sucks to be one of the guilds at 400+ wipes but no matter when it gets nerfed that's gonna happen to someone.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Given the choice between 7 bosses every 6 months and 14-15 every year I'd still stick with the former tbh, the long breaks for icc and BT were crushing. But...yeah, ideally it's like 10-11 every 6 months instead of them just being lazy and not releasing one of the intended zones.

Rag nerf is reasonably big, I think a lot of people overestimate how easy it will make things. Obviously it's easier (You could feasibly do 2 seeds 1 meteor, though for a guild just learning it I highly doubt either will happen) but it's not gonna just fall over still. EJB forums are full of people that were close to a kill talking about how pissed they are, but I feel like multiple months with only 7 US kills is pretty effing bad and it needed to happen, sucks to be one of the guilds at 400+ wipes but no matter when it gets nerfed that's gonna happen to someone.

It seemed like the reason people were stuck with ICC was because WLK had essentially "ended" and they had stopped creating any real content for it for almost a year; and had to hold everything else back until it would fit into an expansion package. I suppose you could argue it evened out that way, but really, Ulduar, CC and ICC all released within an 8 month period. It's kind of the same thing with Black Temple.

I believe BT was just a tactical blunder; they had enough content to stretch out TBC but then released BT way too early at a time when almost nobody was even through Hyjal yet (not to mention all of the raids at that point included raid wide attunements). I seem to recall that Illidan was supposed to be the big bad; they ended up scrambling to stick Sunwell in there to avoid people getting pissed off since WLK had a lot of content considering the new zones and classes. In any case, I don't think it's a stretch to say Kil'jaeden is a prime target to be another big bad for an expansion since he didn't even die. Just say he made it all the way through next time and boom, new boss.

Really, it just seems like they're being extra slow by any measure since it's taking a really long time to get content, it's not a large amount of content and the expansion isn't over by any means.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Well CC was released too soon, for one. It didn't have enough content either - 5 bosses? We got everything down the week it came out except for Faction Champs - which we got the next week. Then we proceeded to stumble on the difficult heroic beasts for a long time.

CC was definitely too early - my guild was a bit more than middling at the time, not great, but we were on the precipice of beating Yogg at the time, and had already downed a few other heroic bosses (FL, XT). Yogg we would have gotten eventually without CC gear help if we just had more practice, as getting to him at the end of a week was challenging, having to fight through all the other bosses, especially when some of the optionals dropped good gear.

If they had given Ulduar maybe 6 more weeks, I think the whole situation wouldn't have been as bad, with the same amount of time, maybe a few extra weeks at most for CC, and you have ICC releasing sometime in February/early March, which would have been fine for keeping people occupied without being bored, especially with the gating (though maybe toned down since it wouldn't be during the holidays then.)

Moving on from Ulduar so quickly was a mistake, especially with so many bosses in there, legendaries to make, and Algalon, Yogg, and Mimiron not being pushovers, even in normal.

 

[FLEABttn]

by pandering to the idea that everyone should see everything

I will pay no monthly fee to a company where the name of their game is exclusion.

WotLK raiding was as close to a sweet spot as Blizz ever came.

 

[windz]

I think (as far as endgame) TBC was the sweet spot:

Normal 5 mans: Some were pretty tricky even on normal, good variety

Heroic 5 mans: some of these were really fecking hard

Kara: a 10 man raid, well designed, loads of bosses, bit too much trash but overall you could have a nice casual 10 man raiding guild running Kara and Heroics and it would be a while before they were all geared in purps.

Gruul / Magi: 2 Ony style boss only raids, good for a more casual guild to team up / practice for the 25 mans, Magi had some nice co-ordination checks.

SSC / TK: The tier that either made or broke your guild as a raiding guild, when you needed it for BT it was a real test but a good one, some great loot and I was happy to say I cleared it pre nerf with my 3 night a week raid guild.

BT: The badass dungeon that most wouldn't see (but not as bad as Naxx was in vanilla)

On top of that you had amazing looking unique gear, if you saw a Rogue with Illidan's eyemask and the war-blades you knew they had worked for it. That's what I liked about WoW in the day, knowing there was always something to strive for or a challenge that was beyond you, I knew I would probably never kill Illidan but I didn't mind, it made the world feel bigger.

I think that's where WoW went wrong, by pandering to the idea that everyone should see everything, removing the need to travel at endgame and flying mounts, the world just feels small and empty now, shame as they can't remove many of those things now they are in.

I agree with mostly everything you said, but pre-nerf Magtheridon would have been the "end" of almost every casual guild out there. There is no way they would have managed to kill pre-nerf Magtheridon due to the amount of damage infernals did(1-2 shotting people) and the co-ordination required and superb healing the fight took. Also, many warlocks, banish it. Not killing Matheridon meant not getting keyed, which meant you were simply stuck. I think Blizzard saw this and nerfed him a week after my guild downed it =/. There went 3-4 weeks of raiding and wiping to a loot pinata!

 

[SteveWD40]

I will pay no monthly fee to a company where the name of their game is exclusion.

WotLK raiding was as close to a sweet spot as Blizz ever came.

Fair enough, lolopinions and all that, but the idea that every player in the game should be able to see every raid / boss / loot drop bar none sounds ok to you for an MMO?

TBC wasn't about exclusion, it was about overcoming skill and gear checks which were not hard, my guild raided 3 times a week, carried at least 5 weak players in the avg raid and still got into and killed some bosses in BT when you still needed attunement, it wasn't some crazy cockblock raid progression imho.

Edit: and yeah, Magi was broken for a while, as was Aran trash iirc

 

[FLEABttn]

Fair enough, lolopinions and all that, but the idea that every player in the game should be able to see every raid / boss / loot drop bar none sounds ok to you for an MMO?

I've fine with loot separation, but as far as raids and bosses? Yep, should be accessible to some degree.

 

[Bisnic]

Fair enough, lolopinions and all that, but the idea that every player in the game should be able to see every raid / boss / loot drop bar none sounds ok to you for an MMO?

It's still better than only having 1% of your playerbase seeing the raids like before. Blizzard didn't like spending so much time making raids that so few people could see. I'm not saying non-hardcore players should get legendaries or the best gear available, but having an easier mode for raids is just fine.

 

[MattPeters]

I think (as far as endgame) TBC was the sweet spot:

Heroic 5 mans: some of these were really fecking hard

I still have nightmares of Heroic Shadow Labyrinth.

Heroic Sethekk Halls was also brutal.

 

[Rokal]

I think (as far as endgame) TBC was the sweet spot:

What I liked most about TBC was the linear gear progression which ensured there was always a reason (and benefit) to running content at any point in the expansion. 5-mans never gave you a near-full set of gear that was better than what you could get from raiding, so there was a complete gear progression available for any alts you had. You did 5-mans>Heroics>Kara>Gruul/Mag/ZA>SSC/TK>Hyjal>BT>Sunwell. I geared up two alts up through SSC/TK, and that was a lot of fun repeatable content.

I geared my priest and druid alt up though ZG/ZA gear and then stopped. I don't have any motivation to run nerfed T11 content for gear when running ZA/ZG on repeat would give me better gear. I don't have any motivation to run ZA/ZG on repeat for better gear when running ZA/ZG on repeat in 4.3 would reward me even better gear. In Cata the gear progression is 5-mans>Heroics>Current Raid and it really sucks. Having very powerful gear be obtainable by 5-mans, as well as across-the-board nerfs to heroics and 'last tier' raid content, also means that in addition to being less rewarding in terms of gear upgrades, that content is also less rewarding in terms of challenge.