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[TheYanger]

What I liked most about TBC was the linear gear progression which ensured there was always a reason (and benefit) to running content at any point in the expansion. 5-mans never gave you a near-full set of gear that was better than what you could get from raiding, so there was a complete gear progression available for any alts you had. You did 5-mans>Heroics>Kara>Gruul/Mag/ZA>SSC/TK>Hyjal>BT>Sunwell. I geared up two alts up through SSC/TK, and that was a lot of fun repeatable content.

I geared my priest and druid alt up though ZG/ZA gear and then stopped. I don't have any motivation to run nerfed T11 content for gear when running ZA/ZG on repeat would give me better gear. I don't have any motivation to run ZA/ZG on repeat for better gear when running ZA/ZG on repeat in 4.3 would reward me even better gear. In Cata the gear progression is 5-mans>Heroics>Current Raid and it really sucks. Having very powerful gear be obtainable by 5-mans, as well as across-the-board nerfs to heroics and 'last tier' raid content, also means that in addition to being less rewarding in terms of gear upgrades, that content is also less rewarding in terms of challenge.

Yep, exactly what I was saying before. Also, saying that bc was exclusionary is ridiculous. Requiring you to at least somewhat progress through content is not excluding anyone, it is simply up to you to actually do the content. That's like saying megaman is excluding people by requiring them to get through a level to see a boss. The re is nothing stopping anyone from seeing any content in wow besides their own self imposed limitations, be those skill, desire, or anything else.

 

[FLEABttn]

Work nights. See how quickly you progress into Sunwell.

 

[TheYanger]

Work nights. See how quickly you progress into Sunwell.

Last I checked, you would still need a raid group even if the zone were easy. Your inability to o find a gold that raids hours compatible with yours, while it sucks, haas nothing to do with the accessibility of the content. There are guilds out there you could join (oceanic should work np for instance).

 

[FLEABttn]

Last I checked, you would still need a raid group even if the zone were easy. Your inability to o find a gold that raids hours compatible with yours, while it sucks, haas nothing to do with the accessibility of the content. There are guilds out there you could join (oceanic should work np for instance).

Game systems influence if not outright dictate content accessibility. Even Blizzard understands that to some extent. What was their reason for 10 mans and a reused Naxx again?

 

[Mairu]

Game systems influence if not outright dictate content accessibility. Even Blizzard understands that to some extent. What was their reason for 10 mans and a reused Naxx again?

easier to recycle content than create something new

I don't think it's unreasonable to have tiers of difficulty in content in a video game. I definitely prefer the TBC model over what they have in Cataclysm where new content comes out -> old content is nerfed or made completely obsolete and skippable :/

 

[Rokal]

I actually did (and still do) work nights. If hypothetically I was unable to find a guild that matched my hours, and couldn't do 'top' raid content because the time commitment was too great, I'd still prefer the TBC raid model. There were simply more compelling things to do at level cap that didn't feel like a waste of time. If you were in a hardcore guild that did Kara a week after TBC launched since you all played 18 hours a day, or if you were in a casual guild that didn't get around to Kara until the expansion was out for a year, it still provided meaningful gear upgrades and a reasonable challenge.

What was their reason for 10 mans and a reused Naxx again?

Same reason they re-used ZA/ZG for this expansion (and to a lesser extent SFK and DM). It's part "some people haven't seen this" and part "this will be a large amount of content that costs us less time/money to create".

 

[mileS]

Yea but Naxx was hardly seen at all by a good 90% of the player base at the time. Thats probably pushing it. Yea its less work for them, but lots of people were pissed about all the work they put into Naxx and the amount of people that actually got to see it. Anyways, sorry to continue with this because I know its been beaten to death in the past.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

I don't have any motivation to run nerfed T11 content for gear when running ZA/ZG on repeat would give me better gear.

False.

When you grind an alt to 85, milk za/zg for 353 gear, buy all the Justice Point 359 gear, you have 7? out of 16/17 slots with 359 pieces.

The 8? Valor 378 slots, that maye or may not be BIS, takes part of 2 through part of 3 weeks get each piece starting at 0 points. Many of the 378 pieces just replace the 359 ones.

So, you have many pieces to get from old raids, a full set if you want to do them on heroics.

The question is how well/fast a bunch of experienced players can do Firelands in like a 8/9 353 and 7 359 gear make up.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

False.

When you grind an alt to 85, milk za/zg for 353 gear, buy all the Justice Point 359 gear, you have 7? out of 16/17 slots with 359 pieces.

The 8? Valor 378 slots, that maye or may not be BIS, takes part of 2 through part of 3 weeks get each piece starting at 0 points. Many of the 378 pieces just replace the 359 ones.

So, you have many pieces to get from old raids, a full set if you want to do them on heroics.

The question is how well/fast a bunch of experienced players can do Firelands in like a 8/9 353 and 7 359 gear make up.

Hypothetically, If I had a tight group, it would probably not be too hard to clear at least some bosses in Firelands with that makeup before gear growth kicked in. Though I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be doing at least some of T11 at the same time. We still did a bit of Naxx casually when Ulduar was out, and Ulduar for a bit when CC had just released. People will do old content for specific trinkets mostly, which often will remain best in slot through at least one extra tier.

 

[wonderdung]

Legendary questline changes mean around another 12 weeks til we get our first staff, again with no skill other than collecting/attendance required. With any luck there will be an easily available MH/OH combo that outclasses it available off the first two bosses in the next raid.

Blizzard is really infuriating sometimes. Although I feel even worse for the guy who's second in line and won't have any chance of getting the thing before the next raid is out.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Hypothetically, If I had a tight group, it would probably not be too hard to clear at least some bosses in Firelands with that makeup before gear growth kicked in. Though I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be doing at least some of T11 at the same time. We still did a bit of Naxx casually when Ulduar was out, and Ulduar for a bit when CC had just released. People will do old content for specific trinkets mostly, which often will remain best in slot through at least one extra tier.

My main has like 2 upgrades in normal Firelands while my alt has a ton of of upgrades in t11.

I need to see how many of us could make an alt Firelands raid.

We haven't really done t11 on alts much. The problem is, the past weeks, we clear to domo in a day and everyone has shit to do the rest of the week because of bad timing this month.

But back to do t11 or not, there's scenarios where your 353/359 character has the opportunity to do Firelands with geared people and you pull good enough weight.

 

[Rokal]

False.

When you grind an alt to 85, milk za/zg for 353 gear, buy all the Justice Point 359 gear, you have 7? out of 16/17 slots with 359 pieces.

The 8? Valor 378 slots, that maye or may not be BIS, takes part of 2 through part of 3 weeks get each piece starting at 0 points. Many of the 378 pieces just replace the 359 ones.

So, you have many pieces to get from old raids, a full set if you want to do them on heroics.

The question is how well/fast a bunch of experienced players can do Firelands in like a 8/9 353 and 7 359 gear make up.

ZA/ZG reward valor/justice points, which you can use to purchase 359 and 378 gear. T11 also rewards a small amount of valor points, but I can get those points more easily/faster from ZA/ZG. If I wait for 4.3, running ZA/ZG will give me valor/justice points that I can use to purchase 378 and 397 gear (or whatever the new ilevel is).

You are right that some pieces can't be purchases with VP/JP (such as shoulders), but having a mix of 353, 359, and 378 gear isn't going to be a problem when the 'current' raid is balanced for 359 gear.

If you did only ZA/ZG on repeat in patch 4.2 you would end up with:

Helmet: 353
Necklace: 378
Shoulders: 353
Cloak: 359 (365 for Thrall quest)
Chest: 378
Bracers: 378
Gloves: 378
Belt: 353
Pants: 378
Boots: 359
Ring 1: 359
Ring 2: 378
Trinket 1: 359
Trinket 2: 353
Weapon(s): 353
Accessory (wand, relic, throwing): 378

Or, an average ilvl of 365, 6 levels higher than Firelands was balanced for.

So ZA/ZG really is completely fine as the only gear progression on your way to Firelands. In 4.3, ZA/ZG will still be the best way to get valor/justice gear unless the new 5-mans offer better rewards. In either case, T11 and T12 dungeons won't be very worthwhile to run any more.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Legendary questline changes mean around another 12 weeks til we get our first staff, again with no skill other than collecting/attendance required. With any luck there will be an easily available MH/OH combo that outclasses it available off the first two bosses in the next raid.

Blizzard is really infuriating sometimes. Although I feel even worse for the guy who's second in line and won't have any chance of getting the thing before the next raid is out.

There will certainly be something that is better or competes pure stats-wise, but I still don't know if there will be anything good enough to top it with that delicious proc. The proc kept Val'anyr relevant all the way through CC, and at least most of the way through ICC.

I still think it's kind of cheap that they're increasing the time it takes to get now though. To be fair, it's probably the easiest legendary to acquire right now besides the random drop ones.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

ZA/ZG reward valor/justice points, which you can use to purchase 359 and 378 gear. T11 also rewards a small amount of valor points, but I can get those points more easily/faster from ZA/ZG. If I wait for 4.3, running ZA/ZG will give me valor/justice points that I can use to purchase 378 and 397 gear (or whatever the new ilevel is).

You are right that some pieces can't be purchases with VP/JP (such as shoulders), but having a mix of 353, 359, and 378 gear isn't going to be a problem when the 'current' raid is balanced for 359 gear.

If you did only ZA/ZG on repeat in patch 4.2 you would end up with:

Helmet: 353
Necklace: 378
Shoulders: 353
Cloak: 359 (365 for Thrall quest)
Chest: 378
Bracers: 378
Gloves: 378
Belt: 353
Pants: 378
Boots: 359
Ring 1: 359
Ring 2: 378
Trinket 1: 359
Trinket 2: 353
Weapon(s): 353
Accessory (wand, relic, throwing): 378

Or, an average ilvl of 365, 6 levels higher than Firelands was balanced for.

So ZA/ZG really is completely fine as the only gear progression on your way to Firelands. In 4.3, ZA/ZG will still be the best way to get valor/justice gear unless the new 5-mans offer better rewards. In either case, T11 and T12 dungeons won't be very worthwhile to run any more.

You're discussing someone that has every piece of 378 gear on their alt. While that's possible, many people sold bracers for 10k from their alts and every new alt or person hitting 85 in the last month wouldn't have all of those 378 valor pieces.

I need to go see how many weeks it takes to get all the 378 pieces.

My main needs one 378 piece, and I bought the bracers on an alt. Haven't spent anything on OS pieces. Now, that's my fault, but you also have to take short hiatuses into account.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

4.2 has been out for 10 weeks.

All the Valor gear avaivble for a spec of mine is (ring, neck, bracers, relic, hands, legs, chest) takes 10 weeks to get.
9.4 weeks if you buy bracers on an alt.

You can't sit there and say there was no reason to do old raids the past 10 weeks.

Right NOW there isn't IF you got all 378 pieces the past 9.4-10 weeks on your alt.

Are you trying to say right now you have no reason to do old raids on certain alts? Well, ok. But every new alt and 85 does.

And I'll tell you one thing, doing 7 za/zg's on more that one character is mind numbing and less fun than one shotting raids.

I'm thankful that firelands covers valor.

There's a reason bracers were worth 10k most of the expansion.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yea but Naxx was hardly seen at all by a good 90% of the player base at the time. Thats probably pushing it. Yea its less work for them, but lots of people were pissed about all the work they put into Naxx and the amount of people that actually got to see it. Anyways, sorry to continue with this because I know its been beaten to death in the past.

It was like 97% actually. But it was the fault of the loser players that didn't feel like finding a compatible guild.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yep, exactly what I was saying before. Also, saying that bc was exclusionary is ridiculous. Requiring you to at least somewhat progress through content is not excluding anyone, it is simply up to you to actually do the content. That's like saying megaman is excluding people by requiring them to get through a level to see a boss. The re is nothing stopping anyone from seeing any content in wow besides their own self imposed limitations, be those skill, desire, or anything else.

Do you actually believe that's a relevant comparison? Megaman isn't even remotely comparable to an MMO. That's really a terrible comparison.

 

[Rokal]

4.2 has been out for 10 weeks.
You can't sit there and say there was no reason to do old raids the past 10 weeks.

Right NOW there isn't IF you got all 378 pieces the past 9.4-10 weeks on your alt.

Are you trying to say right now you have no reason to do old raids on certain alts? Well, ok. But every new alt and 85 does.

And I'll tell you one thing, doing 7 za/zg's on more that one character is mind numbing and less fun than one shotting raids.

If you're patient, there isn't a reason. Or, if you realize that putting lets say 20-30 hours of heroic runs into 4.2 to get to that 365 ilevel mark is going to be a waste of time when the same 20-30 hours would get you 378/397 gear if you just wait a few months for 4.3

There isn't *no* reason to do old raids on alts. There is just very little reason. If your alt never kills a single boss in T11, that alt will be in roughly the same position when 4.3 hits as the alt that spent weeks farming T11 in 4.2. Like I said, it's not just that the sense of rewards is diminished, it's also that having everyone roll into T11 with a 20% across-the-board nerf and 359+ ilvl going in means that the dungeon just isn't as fun. The sense of gear progression and challenge is lost under the Cata model.

I agree that doing 7 ZA/ZGs a week is extremely boring. It's not something I could stomach doing at this point. I'd suggest for people to wait until 4.3, since they'll be able to get better gear for the same effort, and will miss nothing in the process. Or, they could simply get their alts to 85, run ZG/ZA a few times for some 353 upgrades, and then shelf them, which is what I've done this expansion.

 

[wonderdung]

I still think it's kind of cheap that they're increasing the time it takes to get now though. To be fair, it's probably the easiest legendary to acquire right now besides the random drop ones.

Yeah our priest with the Ulduar mace keeps telling me to quit bitching, but Blizzard really needs to fix their quest design. A couple cutscenes with 8 weeks of collecting crap in between each is a little rough.

All will be forgiven once I get the 391 version of the staff I'm sure. That thing is pretty sweet legendary aside.

 

[Alucrid]

4.2 has been out for 10 weeks.

All the Valor gear avaivble for a spec of mine is (ring, neck, bracers, relic, hands, legs, chest) takes 10 weeks to get.
9.4 weeks if you buy bracers on an alt.

You can't sit there and say there was no reason to do old raids the past 10 weeks.

Right NOW there isn't IF you got all 378 pieces the past 9.4-10 weeks on your alt.

Are you trying to say right now you have no reason to do old raids on certain alts? Well, ok. But every new alt and 85 does.

And I'll tell you one thing, doing 7 za/zg's on more that one character is mind numbing and less fun than one shotting raids.

I'm thankful that firelands covers valor.

There's a reason bracers were worth 10k most of the expansion.

Yep. All that Valor is now being funneled into Conquest.

If you're patient, there isn't a reason. Or, if you realize that putting lets say 20-30 hours of heroic runs into 4.2 to get to that 365 ilevel mark is going to be a waste of time when the same 20-30 hours would get you 378/397 gear if you just wait a few months for 4.3

There isn't *no* reason to do old raids on alts. There is just very little reason. If your alt never kills a single boss in T11, that alt will be in roughly the same position when 4.3 hits as the alt that spent weeks farming T11 in 4.2. Like I said, it's not just that the sense of rewards is diminished, it's also that having everyone roll into T11 with a 20% across-the-board nerf and 359+ ilvl going in means that the dungeon just isn't as fun. The sense of gear progression and challenge is lost under the Cata model.

I agree that doing 7 ZA/ZGs a week is extremely boring. It's not something I could stomach doing at this point. I'd suggest for people to wait until 4.3, since they'll be able to get better gear for the same effort, and will miss nothing in the process. Or, they could simply get their alts to 85, run ZG/ZA a few times for some 353 upgrades, and then shelf them, which is what I've done this expansion.

Well I mixed it in with heroics and raids so I never got entirely burnt out on it. And for me my alts are just profession mules. MY FLASKS AND GEMS, NOW! Oh, any shadow priests on here for some advice? I just turned 85 today and in my heroics I'm having trouble breaking 10k dps. My gear isn't stellar, but on my Hunter and Druid it was pretty easy to stay above 10k at 85 regardless of gear.

 

[TheYanger]

Do you actually believe that's a relevant comparison? Megaman isn't even remotely comparable to an MMO. That's really a terrible comparison.

You're right, if anything it swings it further in the 'work it out for yourself' category since you're relying on other players, and Blizz can't just create those opportunities for you beyond putting the zones in the game.

What the fuck else do you people want?

THE ZONES ARE IN THE GAME. THEY ARE DOABLE. These zones have never required skills at a videogame in excess of anything we ever played back on the NES or SNES growing up. The fact that people complain because they're playing an MMO (MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER) game yet can't progress because there aren't enough like minded players with their schedules, is completely out of game design's hands. Nerfing content so that random pugs at 4 in the morning can do this shit is encouraging the antithesis of grouping and online relationships, when content isthat easy the faces you raid with are completely disposable. You have no reason to be attached or social. That's exactly what we are seeing in the game now, and people are quitting. IMAGINE THAT.

4.2 has been out for 10 weeks.

All the Valor gear avaivble for a spec of mine is (ring, neck, bracers, relic, hands, legs, chest) takes 10 weeks to get.
9.4 weeks if you buy bracers on an alt.

You can't sit there and say there was no reason to do old raids the past 10 weeks.

Right NOW there isn't IF you got all 378 pieces the past 9.4-10 weeks on your alt.

Are you trying to say right now you have no reason to do old raids on certain alts? Well, ok. But every new alt and 85 does.

And I'll tell you one thing, doing 7 za/zg's on more that one character is mind numbing and less fun than one shotting raids.

I'm thankful that firelands covers valor.

There's a reason bracers were worth 10k most of the expansion.

What are you even arguing? that because you CAN get points from old raids, that content isn't invalidated? That has NEVER proven to be true in wow or any other game. You get VP MORE easily by doing troll heroics than by raiding T11, period. People will therefore be disinclined to do T11. Similarly, why raid firelands? you can wait for 4.3 and then run ZA/ZG yet again to buy T12 and T13 gear. You claim gearing up is a chore. I just levelled a new alt to 85 like 4 days ago, after 2 days he had absolutely all 353/359/365/378 gear except for one item, which I finally got yesterday. While I could get an upgrade on him from T11, the reality is he's totally prepared for Firelands and there's no reason to muck around on the more difficult heroic T11 shit than there is to do regular joke-mode T12. T11 is dead.

At this point in BC, you had people running SIX levels of endgame content simultaneously, and everyone had goals in front of them. None of it was excluding anyone, the only barriers to entry were those you imposed on yourself (My guild sucks but I don't want to leave /suck it up. etc). Now? You hit 85, you immediately run ZA/ZG 20 times, and then you're done except for whatever the current tier is. Grats. Fucking accomplishment out the ass right there boy, WOO.

My alt's stats, to prove how retarded this shit is:

Item level Equipped: 360
Ascendant Lord Obsidius kills (Heroic Blackrock Caverns) --
Ozumat kills (Heroic Throne of the Tides) --
High Priestess Azil kills (Heroic Stonecore) --
Asaad kills (Heroic Vortex Pinnacle) --
Erudax kills (Heroic Grim Batol) --
Rajh kills (Heroic Halls of Origination) --
Siamat kills (Heroic Lost City of the Tol'vir) --
Vanessa VanCleef kills (Heroic Deadmines) --
Lord Godfrey kills (Heroic Shadowfang Keep) --
Daakara kills (Heroic Zul'Aman) 8
Jin'do kills (Heroic Zul'Gurub) 9

Never stepped foot in any raid besides Occu'thar, and never won anything in there.

How exactly is THIS a better use of developer time than content that people can at least HOPE to do? I'm not looking at that list wishing I had done those heroics, I'm looking at that list wondering why they thought it was a good idea to waste my time doing 17 of the same two dungeons, when they could be designing content that would last months instead, IE: raids. Anyone not capable of the latest raid? Hasn't yet exhausted the previous content anyway, THEY HAVENT RUN OUT F SHIT TO DO. Let that sink in. Anyone complaining they never saw BT, never saw it because they had SO MUCH content in front of them that they just didn't get there. Today, we have no reason to even log on anymore besides your ZG/ZA badge farm every new tier.

 

[FLEABttn]

yet can't progress because there aren't enough like minded players with their schedules, is completely out of game design's hands.

This is literally entirely within the game design's hands to the point where I'm not sure you understand what "out of the game design's hands" means.

That's exactly what we are seeing in the game now, and people are quitting. IMAGINE THAT.

Actually a lack of being able to accomplish shit as a guild is why my guild quit, but hey, keep on keeping on.

 

[TheYanger]

This is literally entirely within the game design's hands to the point where I'm not sure you understand what "out of the game design's hands" means.



Actually a lack of being able to accomplish shit as a guild is why my guild quit, but hey, keep on keeping on.

So your guild quit because they're bad. Gotcha. (and before I get flamed, seriously, what if EVERY game in existence was made possible for the lowest common denominator? We wouldn't even be playing games as a hobby. Games are defined by their tests of skill, chance, abilities, etc. This content is completely doable by anyone willing to put forth a bit of effort, and yes it takes a group effort, but that's where the MMO part comes in. It would be complete joke city if it was a solo game).

How is creating new players that fit your schedule a game design issue? I would love to be enlightened on that topic. If you want to raid during the day, join a guild that raids at those hours. if you're not willing to do that, it's not a problem with the design of the fucking game, it's just not a game your lifestyle can support. If I want to join a soccer league, but I only want to play at midnight...Well, guess I better find like-minded individuals, rather than petitioning the city about why they don't make soccer easier so that I can play it with hay bales or something instead of actual people.

 

[Angry Grimace]

You're right, if anything it swings it further in the 'work it out for yourself' category since you're relying on other players, and Blizz can't just create those opportunities for you beyond putting the zones in the game.

What the fuck else do you people want?

THE ZONES ARE IN THE GAME. THEY ARE DOABLE. These zones have never required skills at a videogame in excess of anything we ever played back on the NES or SNES growing up. The fact that people complain because they're playing an MMO (MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER) game yet can't progress because there aren't enough like minded players with their schedules, is completely out of game design's hands. Nerfing content so that random pugs at 4 in the morning can do this shit is encouraging the antithesis of grouping and online relationships, when content isthat easy the faces you raid with are completely disposable. You have no reason to be attached or social. That's exactly what we are seeing in the game now, and people are quitting. IMAGINE THAT.

Do you even read your own posts? You're just inventing more and more strawmans about 4 am pugs and selling Millagazor at the vendor. That isn't what anyone is arguing and you're so far off the mark its pointless to even try to steer you back in the right direction.

If you can't understand why Megaman is an inapposite analogy in a MMO thread I don't know what to tell you; you just took your own glaringly inappropriate comparison and made it worse. If you really really want me to, I will explain why this is, but just be aware you're on notice that everyone will probably point and laugh that I have to.

 

[markot]

To be fair.

A mega man mmo done right would be pretty awesome ^_^

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

To be fair.

A mega man mmo done right would be pretty awesome ^_^

Could be said about almost any franchise. I still think there could be room for expansion in the types of gameplay experiences we get in action bar MMOs, but there is so much untapped potential for a completely new style.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Could be said about almost any franchise. I still think there could be room for expansion in the types of gameplay experiences we get in action bar MMOs, but there is so much untapped potential for a completely new style.

The reason why you don't see that is because games are about money and the games like WoW require minimal effort to maintain and run.

I assure you that some company could make a better game than WoW, it would just require a lot more work to either maintain or design and that isn't going to happen while the WoW model is still profitable.

 

[markot]

Yeah, they really dont put alot of work into the game really >.<

I mean, we got such little content between expansions, and we have to pay extra for those already... It kind feels like they thought 'what is the minimum amount of work we can do and still have people play >.>?'

Might just be me though. The raiding model/limited end game progression system is really holding mmos back.

 

[Rokal]

To be fair.

A mega man mmo done right would be pretty awesome ^_^

I'm still waiting for a Pokemon MMO.

I will always be waiting

Yeah, they really dont put alot of work into the game really >.<

I mean, we got such little content between expansions, and we have to pay extra for those already... It kind feels like they thought 'what is the minimum amount of work we can do and still have people play >.>?'

I'd argue that TBC never really ran out of content. There were lulls if you were keeping pace with raid content releases, but they weren't as extreme as the lulls in Wrath and Cata, and the content that was released was pretty substantial. If you were in a guild that was only capable of running 5/10 mans, and didn't want to recruit or form a guild alliance, you ran out of content after finishing Kara (and later ZA), but there was plenty of low-hanging fruit even if you were in that situation.

WoW, in general, has a bit more content per-expansion that most other MMOs, but those MMOs don't feature the same content churn that WoW does. Looking at something like LOTRO, Siege of Mirkwood was a smaller expansion than Cataclysm by a pretty wide margin, but the LOTRO dev's didn't have the same substantial gear inflation. People still had a reason to run 5-mans and raids from the last expansion (Moria) as a matter of fact.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

If you're patient, there isn't a reason. Or, if you realize that putting lets say 20-30 hours of heroic runs into 4.2 to get to that 365 ilevel mark is going to be a waste of time when the same 20-30 hours would get you 378/397 gear if you just wait a few months for 4.3

There isn't *no* reason to do old raids on alts. There is just very little reason. If your alt never kills a single boss in T11, that alt will be in roughly the same position when 4.3 hits as the alt that spent weeks farming T11 in 4.2. Like I said, it's not just that the sense of rewards is diminished, it's also that having everyone roll into T11 with a 20% across-the-board nerf and 359+ ilvl going in means that the dungeon just isn't as fun. The sense of gear progression and challenge is lost under the Cata model.

I agree that doing 7 ZA/ZGs a week is extremely boring. It's not something I could stomach doing at this point. I'd suggest for people to wait until 4.3, since they'll be able to get better gear for the same effort, and will miss nothing in the process. Or, they could simply get their alts to 85, run ZG/ZA a few times for some 353 upgrades, and then shelf them, which is what I've done this expansion.

Yea, I'm pretty much going to wait until 4.3 on my new alts. But when 4.3 releases, it'll take 10 weeks to get all of the new Valor gear. So, there will be reason to do Firelands normal or Heroic when your mains start 4.3 just like there was reason to do t11 raids on alts while your main started Firelands.

My point is there's a reason to do the previous Tier because you can't get all that Valor gear fast.

When 4.3 releases, there's no reason to do tier 11 at all. It'd be stupid to. I get the appeal for the BC system.

But, the thing is, the architecture of the Caatclysm raids looks boring as hell and I wouldn't want to be forced to go through all tiers on alts unless they went back in time and had a lot of development put into making not only the bosses good but the instances amazing looking. Firelands as a big island full of trash is embarrassing.

 

[Rokal]

Firelands has a couple interesting looking areas, but yeah, it's pretty one-note. I think the appearance from first impressions is pretty deceiving. The trash is actually really light, and there's much less trash overall (and much less annoying trash) compared to BoT, or especially older expansion raids like Kara. The trash is front-loaded, so you'll clear about ~10-12 packs total for the first three bosses, and then maybe 4-6 packs total after that.

I agree that BoT and BWD were both pretty boring to look at. Blizzard tried to go for a nostalgia-invoking look, but that look got old considerably faster than something new. TBC had the best art direction so far for a WoW expansion. Nothing they've put out really comes close to how amazing Netherstorm or the TK instances looked. I'd say the most 'boring' looking zone was Blade's Edge Mountains, and that had dragons impaled on cliffs all over the place. The zones had a bit more of a 'theme park' feel since the zones didn't really seem believable, each one being so distinct, but it made for some really refreshing looks. I still get happy whenever one of my characters visits Nagrand.

 

[Rambaldi]

Firelands has a couple interesting looking areas, but yeah, it's pretty one-note. I think the appearance from first impressions is pretty deceiving.

I completely agree, if you're going where I think you're going with this. I love the idea of a fire environment but, mostly, the area is pretty bland and boring to me. Maybe it'll look different when we get "inside" to wear Rag is but idk. It looks pretty much the same as the Molten Front (which makes sense but still..)

Anyways, we attempted Rhyolith tonight a few times and I can say that I really, really hate the mechanic of this fight. I've heard people say it's easy, and I get it, but RNG really has a terribly huge impact with the volcanoes. I don't like it. :/

 

[C.Dark.DN]

You're right, if anything it swings it further in the 'work it out for yourself' category since you're relying on other players, and Blizz can't just create those opportunities for you beyond putting the zones in the game.

What the fuck else do you people want?

THE ZONES ARE IN THE GAME. THEY ARE DOABLE. These zones have never required skills at a videogame in excess of anything we ever played back on the NES or SNES growing up. The fact that people complain because they're playing an MMO (MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER) game yet can't progress because there aren't enough like minded players with their schedules, is completely out of game design's hands. Nerfing content so that random pugs at 4 in the morning can do this shit is encouraging the antithesis of grouping and online relationships, when content isthat easy the faces you raid with are completely disposable. You have no reason to be attached or social. That's exactly what we are seeing in the game now, and people are quitting. IMAGINE THAT.



What are you even arguing? that because you CAN get points from old raids, that content isn't invalidated? That has NEVER proven to be true in wow or any other game. You get VP MORE easily by doing troll heroics than by raiding T11, period. People will therefore be disinclined to do T11. Similarly, why raid firelands? you can wait for 4.3 and then run ZA/ZG yet again to buy T12 and T13 gear. You claim gearing up is a chore. I just levelled a new alt to 85 like 4 days ago, after 2 days he had absolutely all 353/359/365/378 gear except for one item, which I finally got yesterday. While I could get an upgrade on him from T11, the reality is he's totally prepared for Firelands and there's no reason to muck around on the more difficult heroic T11 shit than there is to do regular joke-mode T12. T11 is dead.

At this point in BC, you had people running SIX levels of endgame content simultaneously, and everyone had goals in front of them. None of it was excluding anyone, the only barriers to entry were those you imposed on yourself (My guild sucks but I don't want to leave /suck it up. etc). Now? You hit 85, you immediately run ZA/ZG 20 times, and then you're done except for whatever the current tier is. Grats. Fucking accomplishment out the ass right there boy, WOO.

My alt's stats, to prove how retarded this shit is:

Item level Equipped: 360
Ascendant Lord Obsidius kills (Heroic Blackrock Caverns) --
Ozumat kills (Heroic Throne of the Tides) --
High Priestess Azil kills (Heroic Stonecore) --
Asaad kills (Heroic Vortex Pinnacle) --
Erudax kills (Heroic Grim Batol) --
Rajh kills (Heroic Halls of Origination) --
Siamat kills (Heroic Lost City of the Tol'vir) --
Vanessa VanCleef kills (Heroic Deadmines) --
Lord Godfrey kills (Heroic Shadowfang Keep) --
Daakara kills (Heroic Zul'Aman) 8
Jin'do kills (Heroic Zul'Gurub) 9

Never stepped foot in any raid besides Occu'thar, and never won anything in there.

How exactly is THIS a better use of developer time than content that people can at least HOPE to do? I'm not looking at that list wishing I had done those heroics, I'm looking at that list wondering why they thought it was a good idea to waste my time doing 17 of the same two dungeons, when they could be designing content that would last months instead, IE: raids. Anyone not capable of the latest raid? Hasn't yet exhausted the previous content anyway, THEY HAVENT RUN OUT F SHIT TO DO. Let that sink in. Anyone complaining they never saw BT, never saw it because they had SO MUCH content in front of them that they just didn't get there. Today, we have no reason to even log on anymore besides your ZG/ZA badge farm every new tier.

I responded to a post listing an alt that has all the valor gear, which would take 10 weeks.

So, no, it's not bull shit.

Yes, pretty much every class can get to 358-360 with za/zg, the intro molten front rewards, and buying a few crafted pieced the week they hit 85.

That doesn't change that an upgrade is and upgrade, which increases your preformance in Firelands. You can go weeks without getting loot in firelands because of shitty drops. There's at least 6 pieces or more that can be replaced in t11. At the very least, you can get your head and shoulder you may not replace for weeks on domo and rag depedning upon your guild.

I see people spending an hour in za/zg still. Our guild can hammer out old raids in an hour. That's better gear and more or equal Valor.

Having a reason to Firelands and t11 at the same time is pretty cool. It's also nice that you can bounce back and forth on alts and not be stuck in one or the other.

What sucks is when 4.3 releases and t11 is worthless.

But what sucks more is not being able to kill the end boss when it's current.

Now, I'd be interested in heroics having different looking gear and I'm not even doing heroics. Normals just can't have shitty looking gear in comparison.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Firelands has a couple interesting looking areas, but yeah, it's pretty one-note. I think the appearance from first impressions is pretty deceiving. The trash is actually really light, and there's much less trash overall (and much less annoying trash) compared to BoT, or especially older expansion raids like Kara. The trash is front-loaded, so you'll clear about ~10-12 packs total for the first three bosses, and then maybe 4-6 packs total after that.

I agree that BoT and BWD were both pretty boring to look at. Blizzard tried to go for a nostalgia-invoking look, but that look got old considerably faster than something new. TBC had the best art direction so far for a WoW expansion. Nothing they've put out really comes close to how amazing Netherstorm or the TK instances looked. I'd say the most 'boring' looking zone was Blade's Edge Mountains, and that had dragons impaled on cliffs all over the place. The zones had a bit more of a 'theme park' feel since the zones didn't really seem believable, each one being so distinct, but it made for some really refreshing looks. I still get happy whenever one of my characters visits Nagrand.

I just mean, if you looked at the instance in an overhead angle you'd see an island full of trash. There's a ton you can skip.

I completely agree, if you're going where I think you're going with this. I love the idea of a fire environment but, mostly, the area is pretty bland and boring to me. Maybe it'll look different when we get "inside" to wear Rag is but idk. It looks pretty much the same as the Molten Front (which makes sense but still..)

Anyways, we attempted Rhyolith tonight a few times and I can say that I really, really hate the mechanic of this fight. I've heard people say it's easy, and I get it, but RNG really has a terribly huge impact with the volcanoes. I don't like it. :/

Rag's room is nothing special sadly.

 

[Rokal]

I completely agree, if you're going where I think you're going with this. I love the idea of a fire environment but, mostly, the area is pretty bland and boring to me. Maybe it'll look different when we get "inside" to wear Rag is but idk. It looks pretty much the same as the Molten Front (which makes sense but still..)

Anyways, we attempted Rhyolith tonight a few times and I can say that I really, really hate the mechanic of this fight. I've heard people say it's easy, and I get it, but RNG really has a terribly huge impact with the volcanoes. I don't like it. :/

By "the initial appearance is deceiving" I just meant "there isn't as much trash as it looks like there is".

Rhyolith is a pretty easy fight and they made turning much more responsive recently. The thing to know is that he is always going to make his next active volcano be the closest existing dormant volcano in whatever direction he's currently going. This means if you are turning him to the right for most of the fight, active volcanos will always be to his right. The other key to the fight is communication. Make sure the 2-3 people you have turning him are on the same page with turning him (be it via voice chat, a macro, or an assist window: whatever).

 

[Subliminal]

Rhyolith used to be alot worse, but I agree it can still be a bit tricky.

Thankfully they balanced it so that when he stomps, Volcanos will appear behind him, and when he activates a volcano its most likely to be one in front of him.

Get on vent, have one person call out directions, focus and it should go down. The only issue my guild has with that fight now is stepping on too many dormant volcanos.

 

[SteveWD40]

Gearscore / levels is what killed it for me, it really is just spreadsheets with graphics now. You could argue it always was but gear used to be about stats that helped your build, not just "lol 378 > 365".

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Gearscore / levels is what killed it for me, it really is just spreadsheets with graphics now. You could argue it always was but gear used to be about stats that helped your build, not just "lol 378 > 365".

In vanilla would you choose much Molten Core loot over BWL? You can still find lower iLevel pieces that are better than certain pieces. And there's 378 pieces to choose between.

 

[Alex]

I feel like they should get rid of the patch to patch soft-resets. Appealing at first, these have sort of screwed up progression flow of the game and the concern of getting a new player raid ready seems to have taken a back seat to attempting to candy up raiding as much as possible to those who just do not want to raid to begin with.

It's somewhat insulting to those players to offer them scraps instead of proper content, it puts extreme strain on the current content patch to be the entire game and ultimately it just cheapens the experience and extremely damages pacing and variety. There are better ways to handle the problems associated with the old.

With that in mind, they need to spend some time away from the traditional content patch and work on the the barren wasteland that is 25 out of the 30 gigs of their folder content at any given moment. Look how much good the mere news of transmogrification did for the mental health of the game.

Getting the world to matter again and re purpose as much of their content as possible in a more sanctioned manner (without making it into a ridiculous spotlight funnel for six months) should be their priority.

Put in open world dungeons, make world PvP matter again, put scaling weekly challenges in dungeons and raids that reward cosmetic parts/collectables, turn Archeology into a flash-back based challenge system in the open world instead of an unsupported TCG lootbag.

There's so much they can do, I just fear creativity will fall short as will promises and the march of patch to patch content relevance and endless ilvl "resets" will be the all of it until the end.

 

[Johnlenham]

On top of that you had amazing looking unique gear, if you saw a Rogue with Illidan's eyemask and the war-blades you knew they had worked for it. That's what I liked about WoW in the day, knowing there was always something to strive for or a challenge that was beyond you, I knew I would probably never kill Illidan but I didn't mind, it made the world feel bigger.

I think that's where WoW went wrong, by pandering to the idea that everyone should see everything, removing the need to travel at endgame and flying mounts, the world just feels small and empty now, shame as they can't remove many of those things now they are in.

Yeah this summed it up well for me.

I still rememeber mouching about Ironforge and looking at all the gear before BC.
"oohh he has full Dragon Stalkers! oh shit he has AQ gear!"
"wow thunder fury! hes the only guy on the server with it!"
The same guy had the Naxx Wall of Death badass looking sheild and was like the server celebrity, oh how people would cheer if you got him as a tank in a 5man run aha!

I do feel abit sad I missed out TBC as it seems it was the "Golden years" but man I was so fucking pissed when I was 1 bit from full giantstalker and they announced TBC saying starter greens were better than than epics ahaha!

I would like to see them go back to the teired way off normal 5mans>heroic 5mans>normal raid>heroic raid and make the heroics really diffrent to the normal counter parts.
Diffrent enemys/bosses diffrent unique models and stuff so people would hopefully strive for it and it wouldnt be so stale as doing all the same bosses again with some new mechanics for gear that looks the same.

Not much chance of it happening mind you!

 

[Bisnic]

Seems like some people forgot TBC introduced some shit people complain a lot about, like arenas, dailies or resilience. And i remember how resto druids were pratically invincible in pvp back then. Had lots of fun in bgs with mine though.

Oh, corpse runs in Blade Edge Mountain, how i don't miss you.

Don't get me wrong, i loved TBC too, but it wasn't perfect. There was at least more unique models back then. I don't remember WOTLK or Cataclysm 5 mans having much unique models except in a few rare cases like the tanking shield from heroic old strat. Shadowmoon Valley felt like a real final zone unlike Twilight Highlands, Isle of Queldanas was something special back then and getting my first dragon ever with the Netherwing grind was great. Now, dragons are everywhere.

 

[Entropia]

This page has been gold.

I love this bickering.

 

[SteveWD40]

Seems like some people forgot TBC introduced some shit people complain a lot about, like arenas, dailies or resilience. And i remember how resto druids were pratically invincible in pvp back then. Had lots of fun in bgs with mine though.

Oh, corpse runs in Blade Edge Mountain, how i don't miss you.

Don't get me wrong, i loved TBC too, but it wasn't perfect. There was at least more unique models back then. I don't remember WOTLK or Cataclysm 5 mans having much unique models except in a few rare cases like the tanking shield from heroic old strat. Shadowmoon Valley felt like a real final zone unlike Twilight Highlands, Isle of Queldanas was something special back then and getting my first dragon ever with the Netherwing grind was great. Now, dragons are everywhere.

Yeah, I did specify the raiding / endgame, I hated arenas though.

Also, when Dragons were rare...*memories"

 

[FLEABttn]

How is creating new players that fit your schedule a game design issue? I would love to be enlightened on that topic.

Game design dictates a certain number of people at a certain time with a certain skill level. You're right, surely there's no way to design content that scales with player numbers and difficulty. I guess we'll forever be stuck with 40 man raids...I mean 20 man raids as well...I mean 25 man raids and 10 man raids...I mean 10 man raids for each raid zone and hard modes...

 

[Angry Grimace]

I feel like they should get rid of the patch to patch soft-resets. Appealing at first, these have sort of screwed up progression flow of the game and the concern of getting a new player raid ready seems to have taken a back seat to attempting to candy up raiding as much as possible to those who just do not want to raid to begin with.

It's somewhat insulting to those players to offer them scraps instead of proper content, it puts extreme strain on the current content patch to be the entire game and ultimately it just cheapens the experience and extremely damages pacing and variety. There are better ways to handle the problems associated with the old.

With that in mind, they need to spend some time away from the traditional content patch and work on the the barren wasteland that is 25 out of the 30 gigs of their folder content at any given moment. Look how much good the mere news of transmogrification did for the mental health of the game.

Getting the world to matter again and re purpose as much of their content as possible in a more sanctioned manner (without making it into a ridiculous spotlight funnel for six months) should be their priority.

Put in open world dungeons, make world PvP matter again, put scaling weekly challenges in dungeons and raids that reward cosmetic parts/collectables, turn Archeology into a flash-back based challenge system in the open world instead of an unsupported TCG lootbag.

There's so much they can do, I just fear creativity will fall short as will promises and the march of patch to patch content relevance and endless ilvl "resets" will be the all of it until the end.

The reason they aren't bringing that back is because if they do that, a lot of people would decide that it's pointless to even try to raid because you need a guild of 25 people that are on a relatively even item level that you are. If you join Expansion X right in the middle, the only way to raid is to find another entry level guild (which probably isn't very good). TBC was only marginally better than vanilla in this regard in that the only real ticket in town is raiding right from the get go and never quitting.

Common sense kind of dictates that its incompatible with keeping high subscription numbers over the life of an expansion.

 

[ampere]

I completely agree, if you're going where I think you're going with this. I love the idea of a fire environment but, mostly, the area is pretty bland and boring to me. Maybe it'll look different when we get "inside" to wear Rag is but idk. It looks pretty much the same as the Molten Front (which makes sense but still..)

Anyways, we attempted Rhyolith tonight a few times and I can say that I really, really hate the mechanic of this fight. I've heard people say it's easy, and I get it, but RNG really has a terribly huge impact with the volcanoes. I don't like it. :/

Try having one person 'drive', that is, call out constantly which direction he needs to be aimed. Our disc priest does it in our 25, so all melee have to do is react and dps the leg that needs to be damaged.

BEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRR!!!

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/defias-brotherhood/Arithiana/advanced

Nice druid

I played my bear a ton in Wrath, it was my first tank. Now it's in BoT/BWD and some ZA/ZG gear, but I still like it.

 

[TheYanger]

The reason they aren't bringing that back is because if they do that, a lot of people would decide that it's pointless to even try to raid because you need a guild of 25 people that are on a relatively even item level that you are. If you join Expansion X right in the middle, the only way to raid is to find another entry level guild (which probably isn't very good). TBC was only marginally better than vanilla in this regard in that the only real ticket in town is raiding right from the get go and never quitting.

Common sense kind of dictates that its incompatible with keeping high subscription numbers over the life of an expansion.

Except that that is BLATANTLY false, it's a strawman argument that people who are too lazy/bad/whatever to progress themselves trot out when it's brought up. I reiterate: Juggernaut REROLLED during sunwell, on the 5th boss of the zone, fresh characters, and was able to STILL get a top 50 US kill on the end boss of the zone. Skill and desire are the ONLY factors that determine whether you can 'catch up' when you're 'behind' on content. When you look at the current model, do you think all those people who were behind are now suddenly going to beat Rag because they no longer need to progress through T11? Fuck no. They won't kill it because they're not dedicated enough, good enough, insert anything else here enough. The notion that "I need to see the content" is a fucking joke. Those people who don't consume all of the content while it is current in the present scheme will never consume it, because it loses a purpose. You can claim it's still useful all you want, but it isn't.

If you go back and look at Wrath you can even ask yourself, how many people who joined the expansion midway, while ICC was out, went back and really got to do Ulduar? Maybe they went on some achievement run when it was totally trivial at the end. How is it any better that people who join midway during the expansion completely bypass naxx, Sarth, Malygos, Ulduar, ToC possibly (but probably not in wrath's case), but hot damn they got to do ICC, they didn't miss that content! They skipped EVERY OTHER fucking zone because there was no point in doing them, but they got to do ICC! how is THAT any better than joining midway through BC, and having the option to start at the bottom and work your way up at whatever pace you can dictate for yourself? Eventually, under the BC model, everyone who puts in the effort will consume all content. The release of the next expansion was the only thing precluding that. (And that's another can of worms, in EverQuest you would have still been working through BC shit during wrath if you hadn't finished BC. I would argue that's even better). The content was naturally nerfed over time through gear, badge gear filled in slots and upped your groups average ilevel without completely invalidating current gear (as the present system tends to do).

As an example, I played a rogue back then. If I joined wow while Sunwell was out, I could have gotten from badges:

ilevel 110 items (Slightly below Karazhan Quality):
Neck
Helm
Trinket

ilevel 128 items (SSC/TK quality, non Vashj/KT):
Bracers
Boots

ilevel 136 items:
Cloak (Has pvp stats)

ilevel 141 items (Black Temple Quality, non Illidan):
Ring
Pants
Chest
Gloves
Belt

ilevel 146 items (Between BT and Sunwell):
Weapons (Fists or daggers)

That would have left me 1 ring to get, 1 trinket, likely from Magister's Terrace, and some shoulders. The difference between that and now, is that all of these badge items are STOPGAP items, they are great for gearing up a new character, they are great if you don't have an item in that slot, but they are not the same or better than the items from that same tier, for the most part (some were good, of course). IE: If you had the 141 stuff, MOST of it was not as good as what you'd get in BT, but it was good enough. It didn't invalidate running BT. None of it was tier, so you wanted your set bonuses, for instance, if possible. It was all itemized slightly worse than usual, funny stats, no sockets, things of that nature. The ones that had sockets tended to be the ones that you would actually use regardless. Most importantly of all, the most efficient way to actually earn badges? Was to run the damn raids. So basically, what I'm saying, is if you farmed badges and got this set of gear, you would STILL have upgrades to get in EVERY SINGLE raid zone of the expansion. None of them would be a waste of time. Karazhan would simultaneously represent your single easiest and most efficient badge farm and would STILL have upgrades for you. Same for SSC/TK, same for BT/MH. If you had this entire set of gear, you would be completely playable at a T6/Sunwell level, should you have the skill and motivation to do so.

So don't give me shit that "OH IN BC I JOINED A YEAR IN AND COULDN'T EVER PASS KARAZHAN" bullshit. People cried about it a lot, but the simple fact is if they didn't progress it was because they didn't fucking try.

Now what do we have? those same people STILL don't progress, despite raids being easier than they have EVER been. All this says, is that no matter how easy you make shit some people won't have it in them to put forth a modicum of effort. The game being nerfed and bent over backwards to cater to people like this is a joke. You're an idiot if you can't see why this costs subs, sure only x% of people saw kil'jaeden, but how many people were actively working through T4-5-6 at the time? a whole shitload more. Everyone in the middle is now a casualty of the wrath style/cata style raiding system. There's no point to putting forth effort or skill to be a mid-tier guild anymore. You either finish it all, or you're JUST as rewarded for being completely casual. Why put in 75% of the effort just to get partway there and have it swept out from under you EVERY time a new tier comes out? I would love to hear that answer.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Except that that is BLATANTLY false, it's a strawman argument that people who are too lazy/bad/whatever to progress themselves trot out when it's brought up. I reiterate: Juggernaut REROLLED during sunwell, on the 5th boss of the zone, fresh characters, and was able to STILL get a top 50 US kill on the end boss of the zone. Skill and desire are the ONLY factors that determine whether you can 'catch up' when you're 'behind' on content. When you look at the current model, do you think all those people who were behind are now suddenly going to beat Rag because they no longer need to progress through T11? Fuck no. They won't kill it because they're not dedicated enough, good enough, insert anything else here enough. The notion that "I need to see the content" is a fucking joke. Those people who don't consume all of the content while it is current in the present scheme will never consume it, because it loses a purpose. You can claim it's still useful all you want, but it isn't.

If you go back and look at Wrath you can even ask yourself, how many people who joined the expansion midway, while ICC was out, went back and really got to do Ulduar? Maybe they went on some achievement run when it was totally trivial at the end. How is it any better that people who join midway during the expansion completely bypass naxx, Sarth, Malygos, Ulduar, ToC possibly (but probably not in wrath's case), but hot damn they got to do ICC, they didn't miss that content! They skipped EVERY OTHER fucking zone because there was no point in doing them, but they got to do ICC! how is THAT any better than joining midway through BC, and having the option to start at the bottom and work your way up at whatever pace you can dictate for yourself? Eventually, under the BC model, everyone who puts in the effort will consume all content. The release of the next expansion was the only thing precluding that. (And that's another can of worms, in EverQuest you would have still been working through BC shit during wrath if you hadn't finished BC. I would argue that's even better). The content was naturally nerfed over time through gear, badge gear filled in slots and upped your groups average ilevel without completely invalidating current gear (as the present system tends to do).

As an example, I played a rogue back then. If I joined wow while Sunwell was out, I could have gotten from badges:

ilevel 110 items (Slightly below Karazhan Quality):
Neck
Helm
Trinket

ilevel 128 items (SSC/TK quality, non Vashj/KT):
Bracers
Boots

ilevel 136 items:
Cloak (Has pvp stats)

ilevel 141 items (Black Temple Quality, non Illidan):
Ring
Pants
Chest
Gloves
Belt

ilevel 146 items (Between BT and Sunwell):
Weapons (Fists or daggers)

That would have left me 1 ring to get, 1 trinket, likely from Magister's Terrace, and some shoulders. The difference between that and now, is that all of these badge items are STOPGAP items, they are great for gearing up a new character, they are great if you don't have an item in that slot, but they are not the same or better than the items from that same tier, for the most part (some were good, of course). IE: If you had the 141 stuff, MOST of it was not as good as what you'd get in BT, but it was good enough. It didn't invalidate running BT. None of it was tier, so you wanted your set bonuses, for instance, if possible. It was all itemized slightly worse than usual, funny stats, no sockets, things of that nature. The ones that had sockets tended to be the ones that you would actually use regardless. Most importantly of all, the most efficient way to actually earn badges? Was to run the damn raids. So basically, what I'm saying, is if you farmed badges and got this set of gear, you would STILL have upgrades to get in EVERY SINGLE raid zone of the expansion. None of them would be a waste of time. Karazhan would simultaneously represent your single easiest and most efficient badge farm and would STILL have upgrades for you. Same for SSC/TK, same for BT/MH. If you had this entire set of gear, you would be completely playable at a T6/Sunwell level, should you have the skill and motivation to do so.

So don't give me shit that "OH IN BC I JOINED A YEAR IN AND COULDN'T EVER PASS KARAZHAN" bullshit. People cried about it a lot, but the simple fact is if they didn't progress it was because they didn't fucking try.

Now what do we have? those same people STILL don't progress, despite raids being easier than they have EVER been. All this says, is that no matter how easy you make shit some people won't have it in them to put forth a modicum of effort. The game being nerfed and bent over backwards to cater to people like this is a joke. You're an idiot if you can't see why this costs subs, sure only x% of people saw kil'jaeden, but how many people were actively working through T4-5-6 at the time? a whole shitload more. Everyone in the middle is now a casualty of the wrath style/cata style raiding system. There's no point to putting forth effort or skill to be a mid-tier guild anymore. You either finish it all, or you're JUST as rewarded for being completely casual. Why put in 75% of the effort just to get partway there and have it swept out from under you EVERY time a new tier comes out? I would love to hear that answer.

The entire purpose of this post was to name drop some guild nobody has ever heard of as usual and to actively attempt to steal the term "straw man" even though you have no clue what it means (since there's no strawman involved here becuase, protip: a strawman is an fallacy involved in a rebuttal where you mischaracterize the original position, not the original premise itself._

Even mentioning that dumb guild that rerolled just shows you aren't comprehending (or reading) the arguments being presented; I'm not talking about when an entire guild of top of level players decides to re-roll. That entirely misses the point by such a wide margin I can't even fathom how you thought it was anything but a terrible, inappoiste reply.

I'm talking about Joe Public who decides, "hey I want to raid." You swear like there's 24 fucking guys just sitting there waiting for you saying, "hey come join Juggernaut."

It's only so simple in your own head because to you WoW is like Mega Man despite the fact that the comparison is patently invalid.

Edit: Before you flip out with another essay, you have to think about the fact that what makes Mega Man and WoW bad comparisons to each other is that you don't have to find 24 other Mega Man players of equal skill and gear levels to fight Wood Man. That aspect of the game informs everything about the game and its difficulty curve. It's for those reasons that the comparisons you are so fond of making never apply in a rational argument.

 

[TheYanger]

The entire purpose of this post was to name drop some guild nobody has ever heard of as usual and to actively attempt to steal the term "straw man" even though you have no clue what it means (since there's no strawman involved here becuase, protip: a strawman is an fallacy involved in a rebuttal, not an original premise.).

Even mentioning that dumb guild just shows you can't read or comprehend; I'm not talking about when an entire guild of top of level players decides to re-roll. That entirely misses the point by such a wide margin I can't even fathom how you thought it was anything but a goddawful reply. I'm talking about Joe Public who decides, "hey I want to raid." You swear like there's 24 fucking guys just sitting there waiting for you saying, "hey come join Juggernaut."

It's only so simple in your own head because to you WoW is like Mega Man despite the fact that the comparison is patently invalid.

Name dropping a guild that is now dead? You're a retard. Guilds are having huge issues recruiting, ANYONE that shows they're a good player and wants to put in effort to gear up, CAN get a fucking guild. I'm pretty sure your argument that it's impossible to catch up in BC type raiding was a rebuttal for whatever that's worth too.

Your posts are worthless, your ideals are worthless, you have no actual comebacks to any arguments, your entire ideology that you present in your posts consists of attempting to undermine everyone else's position by being an insulting asshole. You have never once refuted any of the points I've presented. I posit this: You don't refute them because you can't.

 

[Subliminal]

New laptop today!

Oh god I hate patching! Reinstalled from the cata discs, Patching from 4.0.0 to 4.2.2.

AND you can't just copy patch files over from old installs anymore!