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[Kintaro]

This is something I have realized about myself as well. I keep wanting to build some super hardcore PC; however, I'll probably just buy a decent, high-powered laptop that I can connect to my HDTV and become a 'Blizzard only' gamer as well (also Valve).

If you find a good laptop for this, please PM me. I would join you in a heartbeat. My life is increasingly becoming minimalist in nature and moving to a laptop while being able to game a bit would be great.

 

[Entropia]

oh shit guys, WoW branded wireless headsets!!! :lol

 

[1up]

Indeed.
Standing in a place, waiting for the tank to bring a mob near the group to nuke it in a safe zone and continue grinding until the next level... that's pure fun.

Spoiler

No. That's just boring.

YES, Bring on the next crab please! :lol

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

It's a catch 22. No question. That's why I would hate to be an MMO developer unless you are SET in your visiion. WoW was pretty damn tough in vanilla because of many factors. A lot of people did not get to see the content blizzard worked hard on. Same with TBC to a lesser extent. The question become: How do we get people in to see all this content we worked so hard on? How do we include new things into the game so everyone has a better chance to SEE it?

The choice was to make it more accessable at the cost of some players feeling they are no longer "special" or "accomplished" That's what I gleam from it. I honestly can't blame them for the choice. Some people do.

I wish Blizzard would reveal some stats on what % of the userbase has seen and completed what content though. I have a feeling it would shut people up a bit.

That's not the point. When you have Johnny Q Casual getting all normal mode T9 raids down 4 weeks after, getting cockblocked by Hard modes, and looking at WoWProgress.com and seeing his guild is STILL #5691 just like in BC, new stuff thrown his way is the only thing to keep him in.

For hardcores, the nerfs to grease the pipe mean that one HAS to do like STARS or whoever and live on PTR to know the fight down to the second, take a week off for the patch, and hope to God that your server is stable, and that you get the boss down before nerfs cascade in, or to other hardcore guilds it's "second place is first loser" for you. This is where I was in 3.1, from a guild that couldnt get down Nefarian before BC, to the guild killing Illidan a week before 2.4, to getting server-first KJ, and every T7 boss but Malygos. Now that's a luxury unless you wanna be called "casual". "Success" requires perfection, not great play, and your gametime is condensed and frontloaded. There is no joy in learning, only in doing. I quit because of this, and am waiting to see if this madness ends.

Easier, faster content: this happens ever faster. It's got unforseen consequences for everyone, some good, some very worrisome.

 

[Vinci]

Saying "it won't work" is not a valid excuse for not doing it. It could totally work. It's just that it wouldn't be very popular. It'd be one of those niche things.

EVE does it. EVE is perfectly successful, and I bet it will remain successful even longer than WoW. Not with the same abso-fucking-lutely insane numbers, of course.

I agree with this. Eventually WoW will die. Blizzard will either kill it off with another MMO (WoW II, perhaps; whatever), whereas CCP seems content with having EVE last decades if it can.

And to follow up your point: EVE is the future of MMOs. It's just in a setting that allowed it to exist earlier than it would otherwise. That setting, and some of the design choices made in connection to it, are what turns people off from EVE - not the variety of different concepts it's brought to the table and virtually perfected.

 

[Kintaro]

That's not the point. When you have Johnny Q Casual getting all normal mode T9 raids down 4 weeks after, getting cockblocked by Hard modes, and looking at WoWProgress.com and seeing his guild is STILL #5691 just like in BC, new stuff thrown his way is the only thing to keep him in.

I don't think Johnny Q. Casual really gives a shit about where his guild is.

For hardcores, the nerfs to grease the pipe mean that one HAS to do like STARS or whoever and live on PTR to know the fight down to the second, take a week off for the patch, and hope to God that your server is stable, and that you get the boss down before nerfs cascade in, or to other hardcore guilds it's "second place is first loser" for you. This is where I was in 3.1, from a guild that couldnt get down Nefarian before BC, to the guild killing Illidan a week before 2.4, to getting server-first KJ, and every T7 boss but Malygos. Now that's a luxury unless you wanna be called "casual". "Success" requires perfection, not great play, and your gametime is condensed and frontloaded. There is no joy in learning, only in doing. I quit because of this, and am waiting to see if this madness ends.

Easier, faster content: this happens ever faster. It's got unforseen consequences for everyone, some good, some very worrisome.

It seems to me that the hardcore should probably relax a little bit and not be so "hard". Then again, the "hardcore" are being treated just like they want to. They're the minority who want to be #1, who want to beat things first, etc etc. the hardcore are and always will be the testers.

Overall, it really just sounds like an attitude problem with the "hardcore" than anything else. Ever stop to think that the hardcore are doing it to themselves a bit here? Goes for any game.

Eh, I guess I don't get it. That's okay too.

 

[Freyjadour]

Indeed.
Standing in a place, waiting for the tank to bring a mob near the group to nuke it in a safe zone and continue grinding until the next level... that's pure fun.

Spoiler

No. That's just boring.

Well, maybe if the argument was about fun to begin with. I was speaking of online experiences.

The difference between the two is that WoW is more or less a single player game until you hit 80 or decide to instance. The only interaction you have with other people on a regular basis is a chat box if you happen to know other people playing or are in a guild that keeps conversations going in guild chat.

Did group grinding get boring eventually? Sure. But at least I felt like I was a part of something.

And to follow up your point: EVE is the future of MMOs. It's just in a setting that allowed it to exist earlier than it would otherwise. That setting, and some of the design choices made in connection to it, are what turns people off from EVE - not the variety of different concepts it's brought to the table and virtually perfected.

I wish I had a link to the analysis of EVE I'm remembering, where a large % of the people online at any given time were trial accounts that never lasted beyond that. If EVE is the future of MMOs, that future looks to be a really boring one.

 

[webrunner]

I think you guys really are confusing who "Johnny Q Casual" is.

Johnny Q Casual doesn't really care that much about hard modes except to be able to say that he's done it . It gives him a goal, but he's not doing it because it's the "next thing" to do.

Johnny Q Casual wants to go into Naxx not so he can be geared for Uld, he goes into Naxx because hey that guy is one of the heroes from Warcraft 3 this is fun! However, Freddy X. Casual wants to go into Naxx because he wants one of those fancy sets.

Hardcore people want one thing: Fast progress. Casual players all want different things, sometimes the same one wants different things at different times, which is why Wow is so popular giving tonnes of different things other than just meaningless end game raid progression. I know people who stayed up all night camping eggs on Nobelgarden but have been 80 forever and never finished Naxx.

Casual players choose their own goals. That these goals be available to them is important, it might take a long time but a solo player can get a motorcycle (it's my current goal, at least)

That's also why there's so much epic (that is, epic, not purple) stuff in Northrend- you get to meet Arthas, take part in major lore battles, etc, without worrying about gear.

 

[Evlar]

Well, maybe if the argument was about fun to begin with. I was speaking of online experiences.

The difference between the two is that WoW is more or less a single player game until you hit 80 or decide to instance. The only interaction you have with other people on a regular basis is a chat box if you happen to know other people playing or are in a guild that keeps conversations going in guild chat.

Did group grinding get boring eventually? Sure. But at least I felt like I was a part of something.



I wish I had a link to the analysis of EVE I'm remembering, where a large % of the people online at any given time were trial accounts that never lasted beyond that. If EVE is the future of MMOs, that future looks to be a really boring one.

I know several people who level from 15 to 80 by doing instances and battlegrounds almost exclusively. To be blunt, the claim that you don't group until 80 is bogus. If you're never grouping it's because you've decided to play a certain way.

 

[Tamanon]

Well, maybe if the argument was about fun to begin with. I was speaking of online experiences.

The difference between the two is that WoW is more or less a single player game until you hit 80 or decide to instance. The only interaction you have with other people on a regular basis is a chat box if you happen to know other people playing or are in a guild that keeps conversations going in guild chat.

Did group grinding get boring eventually? Sure. But at least I felt like I was a part of something.



I wish I had a link to the analysis of EVE I'm remembering, where a large % of the people online at any given time were trial accounts that never lasted beyond that. If EVE is the future of MMOs, that future looks to be a really boring one.

So you're saying that WoW is a solo game until you decide to instance.....which you can do starting around level 14 or so generally. Yeah, such a shame that the game gives you a choice to group or not.

 

[Yazus]

I think you guys really are confusing who "Johnny Q Casual" is.

Johnny Q Casual doesn't really care that much about hard modes except to be able to say that he's done it . It gives him a goal, but he's not doing it because it's the "next thing" to do.

Johnny Q Casual wants to go into Naxx not so he can be geared for Uld, he goes into Naxx because hey that guy is one of the heroes from Warcraft 3 this is fun! However, Freddy X. Casual wants to go into Naxx because he wants one of those fancy sets.

Hardcore people want one thing: Fast progress. Casual players all want different things, sometimes the same one wants different things at different times, which is why Wow is so popular giving tonnes of different things other than just meaningless end game raid progression. I know people who stayed up all night camping eggs on Nobelgarden but have been 80 forever and never finished Naxx.

Casual players choose their own goals. That these goals be available to them is important, it might take a long time but a solo player can get a motorcycle (it's my current goal, at least)

That's also why there's so much epic (that is, epic, not purple) stuff in Northrend- you get to meet Arthas, take part in major lore battles, etc, without worrying about gear.

Ahaha thats so me, getting rep points because my objectives were exclusively getting the Drake mount, getting the green drake mount with the oracles rep etc etc... I've raided only 10 times, and I'm half epic (hard 5 man instances epic and some naxx epic) but my true objectives were always getting the cool mounts and the seasonal stuff. I have all the brewfest mounts, the rep mounts and the brewfest/st valentine/moonglade etc etc items

 

[Grampasso]

YES, Bring on the next crab please! :lol

OMG I hated those crabs

 

[border]

Speaking of Blizzcon, i wonder if many WoW players will do something over there to show their frustration with the "Instances cannot be launched" issue. It's pretty bad currently and everyone is mad after them for taking so long to fix it. Some of them said on the WoW forums that they will do things over at Blizzcon, but i wonder if they will actually do something. I sure wish, the situation is ridiculous.

Do something? :lol :lol

Everyone whines about the game, but nobody ever does anything (like actually quits paying $15 per month). If you're expecting riots and protests, don't get your hopes up. At worst someone is going to wear a snarky t-shirt that says "Additional t-shirts cannot be launched" or something else retarded.

 

[maniac-kun]

iam allways extemly disappointed with the questions they ask at the dev pannels at blizzcon / wwi

 

[Vinci]

I wish I had a link to the analysis of EVE I'm remembering, where a large % of the people online at any given time were trial accounts that never lasted beyond that. If EVE is the future of MMOs, that future looks to be a really boring one.

Way to miss the part where I stated that the setting and choices made to fit that setting (gameplay-wise) are what drives people away from EVE. EVE has shown some of the features future MMOs will have, only it showed them today rather than years from now.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I think you guys really are confusing who "Johnny Q Casual" is.

Johnny Q Casual doesn't really care that much about hard modes except to be able to say that he's done it . It gives him a goal, but he's not doing it because it's the "next thing" to do.

Johnny Q Casual wants to go into Naxx not so he can be geared for Uld, he goes into Naxx because hey that guy is one of the heroes from Warcraft 3 this is fun! However, Freddy X. Casual wants to go into Naxx because he wants one of those fancy sets.

Hardcore people want one thing: Fast progress. Casual players all want different things, sometimes the same one wants different things at different times, which is why Wow is so popular giving tonnes of different things other than just meaningless end game raid progression. I know people who stayed up all night camping eggs on Nobelgarden but have been 80 forever and never finished Naxx.

Casual players choose their own goals. That these goals be available to them is important, it might take a long time but a solo player can get a motorcycle (it's my current goal, at least)

That's also why there's so much epic (that is, epic, not purple) stuff in Northrend- you get to meet Arthas, take part in major lore battles, etc, without worrying about gear.

That was my point that some aren't getting, stuff like achievements and feeling successful isn't some domain only of the hardcore, but with the time to get anything rapidly decreasing, one of the few things with staying power is the hard modes, which Blizz has said repeatedly is a treat to hardcores. Odd thing is, is that the hardcores are the only ones getting what they want to get out of a tier before it's rendered either outdated by gear or nerfs.

People are getting funneled.

The "fast progress" thing is kinda skewed, I remember an officer showing that we shouldn't sweat taking a month to beat BT as we spent the same raw ammount of time in there as the guys who got world first, it was just in four hour chunks 3 days a week. Then you have, as you say, the guys who stay up all night hunting eggs to dance in bunny ears and whatnot in front of a Dal bank the next day.

 

[border]

iam allways extemly disappointed with the questions they ask at the dev pannels at blizzcon / wwi

They are advertising the fuck out of the live internet stream, and I'd gladly buy it if they promised that they were going to screen the panel questions and make sure they were interesting and relevant stuff.

Open Q&A with some of the world's most talented developers and it's all just a bunch of little bitches with some axe to grind -- "When are mages going to stop sucking?" "Why can't I kill a rogue?" "When are we going to get the DANCE STUDIO that you promised on the box?"

 

[Twig]

That may be true, but for something to be "mass market" it'll be damn hard to get it to work. I personally don't want to miss out on something because some guy who has more time than me is playing 24/7. It's just not good for the game to have something like this implemented.

Yeah but who gives two measly fucks about the mass-market? (I know every developer would love to be mass market, but we're talking reality here.)

You don't have to be mass-market to be successful. \:

What I would like to see are quests that shape the world as you do them. So if you helped the farmer make his fields better for growing wheat, then you would see green fields next season. In your "reality" all right with the world. However, if you wanted to help a friend, then you could "join" their reality as a guest. This way your world is changed by the quests you do. Unlike now when you do a quest to save some village, it's still being overun, even though you saved it. This kind of thing kills the immersion.

Uh, yes. This is a good thing.

 

[FLEABttn]

Yeah but who gives two measly fucks about the mass-market?

Pretty much anyone who has the money to make a really, really, really fantastic MMORPG but also has enough money to understand opportunity cost. Why make an MMORPG that gets 200k subs when you can make one that might get 2 million? Or why make an MMORPG that gets 200k subs when you could make a single player game that sells far more than that.

If EA knew that a year after release, Warhammer was going to have 200k or less active subs, there's no way they would have bought Mythic.

 

[Cipherr]

If EA knew that a year after release, Warhammer was going to have 200k or less active subs, there's no way they would have bought Mythic.

Holy fuck its already dipped that low? Fuck that, I was gonna buy and sub for a few months to check it out. Not a big enough pop for me, to hell with that.

 

[Tamanon]

Holy fuck its already dipped that low? Fuck that, I was gonna buy and sub for a few months to check it out. Not a big enough pop for me, to hell with that.

It's basically become a wasteland before the cap, you just get the hardcores playing at max level and that's it.

 

[Twig]

If EA knew that a year after release, Warhammer was going to have 200k or less active subs, there's no way they would have bought Mythic.

Right but that's just because Warhammer's a boring game.

However, I'm talking about the players. Hence, my disclaimer. Which you conveniently ignored. Do you personally really care? Do you?

If you do, you've got issues.

Also: once again I have to mention EVE. Face it. EVE exists. No amount of poo-pooing will make it go away.

 

[Bisnic]

It's basically become a wasteland before the cap, you just get the hardcores playing at max level and that's it.

So much for Warhammer being the WoW Killer. :lol

 

[Interfectum]

So much for Warhammer being the WoW Killer. :lol

I thought WoW stood for "Waiting on Warhammer".... :lol :lol

 

[iamblades]

Do you believe there should be single player raiding and you should have the exact same rewards as a 10 or 25 man version?

i was mainly talking about leveling, but rewards should be equal to the effort, and there should alwas be some way for you to do something productive, solo, group, or raid. right now solo content pretty much ends at the level cap, which shuts out a large percentae of the player base.

 

[yankeeforever2]

So much for Warhammer being the WoW Killer. :lol

I read Wow general at the time, such a clusterfuck of people threatening to go to Warhammer if they didn't get the changes they wanted:lol Whats the next WOW killer that doesn't involve the next Blizz MMO anyways now and days?

 

[Interfectum]

I read Wow general at the time, suck a clusterfuck of people threatening to go to Warhammer if they didn't get the changes they wanted:lol Whats the next WOW killer that doesn't involve the next Blizz MMO anyways now and days?

The Old Republic is probably the next big game to challenge the WoW throne.... and has a decent chance to bleed a lot of subscribers if it turns out to be good.

 

[Tamanon]

I read Wow general at the time, such a clusterfuck of people threatening to go to Warhammer if they didn't get the changes they wanted:lol Whats the next WOW killer that doesn't involve the next Blizz MMO anyways now and days?

It's supposedly Aion. But that's not going to do much either.

 

[weeman_com]

I havent played WoW since january and the bug is biting hard, i want to play. The new expansion may push this harder and make me pick up my account again! With the rumours and speculation its hard to stay away from it.
One rumour ive read is a complete overhaul for Azeroth, which makes me think that their remaking the entire land to make it accessible for new things within the game like the use of flying mounts.

 

[mclem]

Speaking of Blizzcon, i wonder if many WoW players will do something over there to show their frustration with the "Instances cannot be launched" issue. It's pretty bad currently and everyone is mad after them for taking so long to fix it. Some of them said on the WoW forums that they will do things over at Blizzcon, but i wonder if they will actually do something. I sure wish, the situation is ridiculous.

The updated Onyxia fight will be unplayable if 3.22 is released before they fix this. Old World instances are already impossible to play unless you want to hump the instances portals for 30 mins or more. Can you imagine hundreds of Hordes & Alliances at the Onyxia's Lair gates waiting to get inside? PVP fights will sure be fun.

They seem to have been working through all the servers upgrading each in turn to fix the issue, I'm guessing that it's just that they haven't got through all the servers yet.

 

[yankeeforever2]

The Old Republic is probably the next big game to challenge the WoW throne.... and has a decent chance to bleed a lot of subscribers if it turns out to be good.

Haven't there been other Star Wars MMO's that haven't affected WOW's sub based?

It's supposedly Aion. But that's not going to do much either.

Always thought this was vaporware.

 

[mclem]

I read Wow general at the time, such a clusterfuck of people threatening to go to Warhammer if they didn't get the changes they wanted:lol Whats the next WOW killer that doesn't involve the next Blizz MMO anyways now and days?

I'd love to see a big long list of all the WoW-killers through history. I know Age of Conan and LotRO were both touted as such (by players if not necessarily by the devs; the devs have generally had their heads screwed on in these situations)

I've got a lot of respect for City of Heroes/Villains, simply because they were never really touted as the WoW-killer (er, although, thinking about it, didn't Heroes predate WoW?), but it's still pootling along and carving a niche for itself quite reasonably.

 

[Xiaoki]

Holy fuck its already dipped that low? Fuck that, I was gonna buy and sub for a few months to check it out. Not a big enough pop for me, to hell with that.

How could you not tell? Warhammer Online has like 30 servers world wide.

Whats the next WOW killer that doesn't involve the next Blizz MMO anyways now and days?

Right now, Aion. When Aion fails to make a dent in WoW(even NCSoft thinks Aion isnt a WoW killer) the next candidate will be Star Wars The Old Republic.

 

[Alex]

The combination of FFXIV and The Old Republic are the only things that will DENT WoW, and even then it'll be just that: a dent.

Say each game nailed a homerun and got a million stable subs each and it bit into WoW, oh no! WoW would only have 10 million subscribers left.

Aion, with it's glorious NCsoft might, will tear into WoW with all of the savagery that Age of Conan did.

The only thing that would take a legitimate bite out of WoW is Blizzard upping the monthly fee for 50 dollars or requiring the next expansion to be installed off of fruit roll ups or something.

 

[johnsmith]

Haven't there been other Star Wars MMO's that haven't affected WOW's sub based?

There has been 1 star wars mmo, and it came out a year before wow.

 

[Malfunky]

Haven't there been other Star Wars MMO's that haven't affected WOW's sub based?

Star Wars Galaxies came out about a year before WoW, but it was an unfinished mess. It still managed to catch around 500,000 subscribers at it's peak, which I remember being big news at the time.

Then some time into WoW's success, they tried to transform into a WoW-style level based talent tree class game and the game pretty much died.

I think The Old Republic has the most potential to damage WoW. It has a huge license and budget. We can probably expect Cataclysm to come out around the same time. I'm looking forward to both.

 

[EDarkness]

It's supposedly Aion. But that's not going to do much either.

Warhammer and Aion are PvP focused games, which means a limited audience to begin with. Not sure about The Old Republic since we don't have a lot of details. In my opinion a PvP game just won't be as big as WoW. Not sure why people keep thinking that they will. A more PvE focused game with casual PvP like WoW has a better shot at taking the crown.

 

[RPGCrazied]

ugh..2 more days, its gonna seem like 2 years though.

 

[Twig]

Not sure why people keep thinking that they will.

Because people are stupid.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Pretty much anyone who has the money to make a really, really, really fantastic MMORPG but also has enough money to understand opportunity cost. Why make an MMORPG that gets 200k subs when you can make one that might get 2 million? Or why make an MMORPG that gets 200k subs when you could make a single player game that sells far more than that.

If EA knew that a year after release, Warhammer was going to have 200k or less active subs, there's no way they would have bought Mythic.

Where are you getting 200k? Last word from Mythic was that it's around 300k and they were getting bunch of new players with their recent expansion land/content. They have been holding onto around 300k for a while now.

 

[FLEABttn]

Right but that's just because Warhammer's a boring game.

Explain EVE's 300k then. Boring game amirite?

However, I'm talking about the players. Hence, my disclaimer. Which you conveniently ignored. Do you personally really care? Do you?

If you do, you've got issues.

What disclaimer?

"(I know every developer would love to be mass market, but we're talking reality here.)"

How is what that says relates at all to what you said above? Never mind that your "disclaimer" was ninja edited in after I began to quote you. Your disclaimer still doesn't change my point. Nobody with money aims to do 200-300k.

Also: once again I have to mention EVE. Face it. EVE exists. No amount of poo-pooing will make it go away.

The existence of EVE isn't what's "poo-pooed", it's the normative statements from you and your ilk that the "next big thing (TM)" or that real MMO's are massive cluster fuck sandboxes where there isn't a game, but instead a void of content and the ability to kill people and rape the corpse, and that anyone who plays WoW should be playing Elder Scrolls or some shit. My definition of an MMO doesn't rule out EVE or UO or Darkfall or Mortal Online, I just think they are or will be terrible games. Your definition makes WoW something outside the bounds of that which is MMO.

 

[FLEABttn]

Where are you getting 200k? Last word from Mythic was that it's around 300k and they were getting bunch of new players with their recent expansion land/content. They have been holding onto around 300k for a while now.

A chart at FOH in the past month or so. Maybe it is 300k, but if Mythic hasn't given a number in a while, I'd believe 300k is inaccurate. Regardless, it's down from 1,000,000 or 800k from last year.

 

[Xiaoki]

Where are you getting 200k? Last word from Mythic was that it's around 300k and they were getting bunch of new players with their recent expansion land/content. They have been holding onto around 300k for a while now.

No they havent. Warhammer Online has been losing players at a rapid and fairly consistent rate.

As I already said, Warhammer Online is down to about 30 servers world wide and they are closing servers down every month.

Land of the Dead did nothing to bring players back.

 

[GhettoGamer]

Holy crap, Ive been WoW clean for a year and a half now, this just might bring me back:lol

 

[AzureNightmare]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=96244.0
:lol :lol :lol

 

[Barso]

What subscriber numbers does lotro have?
It seems really popular even though it has only had 1 expansion the mines of moria and there is very litlle to do after the level cap.
I know alot of friends that have left it to go back to WOW because of turbines terrible customer service and feedback. It seems they act like mushrooms ( live in the dark and get fed shit).

 

[speedpop]

Looks like Thrall being the Guardian could be correct, as per the WoW Comic Issue #22 sneakpeek.

The New Council of Tirisfal is ditching the past scenario of a Magi controlled organisation mostly due to Malygos, the blue Dragon Aspect bestowed as the guardian of magic, going bonkers and dying. They (being Aegwynn [Medivh's mother and past Guardian], Jaina Proudmoore and Meryl Winterstorm) instead wish to search for people who use nature or divine magic with Maraad, Khadger, Broll and Thrall as the likely candidates being enveloped in the fold.

 

[markot]

That Jaina's such a whore for orcs >.<

 

[finskninja]

My friend thinks WoW will eventually evolve into world of starcraft.

 

[mysteriousmage09]

My friend thinks WoW will eventually evolve into world of starcraft.

:lol