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WoW Cataclysm Expansion speculation

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
EDarkness said:
I don't agree with this idea that MMOs MUST cater to groups. In real life we can get by without having to deal with people. I don't see why we have to do so in a game world. It's a huge pain. If you want to group, that's fine, but if you don't want to, that's also fine. The real evolution of the MMO in my mind is when you can pick your pace, be the hero of your own story, and not be forced to group in order to enjoy the game. Sometimes people just want a solo game where the world evolves around you. No reason why MMOs can't do that.

You know what MMO stands for right? Otherwise, it's just a RPG.
 

iamblades

Member
johnsmith said:
Well, the b team designed the Tier 9 sets, that's for sure. The alliance cloth pieces are recolored quest greens.


The whole coliseum thing just seems to be a 'oh shit ice crown isn't gonna be ready, put something out to buy some time' instance.

If the b team designed the T9 sets, then the z team designed the T2.5 sets from AQ 40.

It seems every now and then the artists crap out a completely hideous set of armor for some reason, though I've had issues with some of the gear design in this game since shoulders grew larger than the character's head.

My most wanted feature for the next expansion is updated armor models for the rest of the armor pieces so the artists don't go so crazy with the retarded looking shoulders and helms because those are the only pieces they can actually change the model on. Probably wishful thinking though.
 

iamblades

Member
Kintaro said:
You know what MMO stands for right? Otherwise, it's just a RPG.

MMO doesn't stand for 'nothing but groups'.

There are other types of multiplayer interaction that are possible.

Even if someone levels from 1-80 completely solo, there is still some degree of multiplayer interaction. Auction house trading, pvp, just running past some other dude while questing and saying hey, or tossing a heal on him when he's about to die.

I don't get this mentality that if people don't group for every single activity that they might as well be playing a single player RPG. It isn't remotely the same thing.
 

EDarkness

Member
Kintaro said:
You know what MMO stands for right? Otherwise, it's just a RPG.

I understand totally what it means. It doesn't mean grouping, though. As someone said already, there are plenty of activities you can do with other players in the world. Just doing my own thing, then chatting with someone to make a trade is great. I don't need someone else to enjoy the game. The option for grouping should be there for those who like the social aspect of these kinds of games, but it shouldn't be a requirement.
 

Scrow

Still Tagged Accordingly
iamblades said:
MMO doesn't stand for 'nothing but groups'.

There are other types of multiplayer interaction that are possible.

Even if someone levels from 1-80 completely solo, there is still some degree of multiplayer interaction. Auction house trading, pvp, just running past some other dude while questing and saying hey, or tossing a heal on him when he's about to die.

I don't get this mentality that if people don't group for every single activity that they might as well be playing a single player RPG. It isn't remotely the same thing.
i agree with this 100%. some of my most memorable moments in WoW were those spontaneous events that can only come about from another player's actions.

a random heal when i'm about to die, getting jumped by alliance, an alliance player helping me finish a quest (tanking an elite), random PvP (had some laugh out loud moments when i walk around a corner to find an epic battle taking place right in front of me). I prefer to play alone most of the time but i still really enjoy those moments that you can only get in an MMO.
 
iamblades said:
MMO doesn't stand for 'nothing but groups'.

There are other types of multiplayer interaction that are possible.

Even if someone levels from 1-80 completely solo, there is still some degree of multiplayer interaction. Auction house trading, pvp, just running past some other dude while questing and saying hey, or tossing a heal on him when he's about to die.

I don't get this mentality that if people don't group for every single activity that they might as well be playing a single player RPG. It isn't remotely the same thing.

It makes for a much less memorable experience overall.

In XI, when I was with an A+ group pulling off huge exp chains, I really felt like I was part of a truly online world. In WoW, the most interaction I usually get leveling is having someone swing by and steal/kill a quest mob/npc. As nice as some of the chains in Wrath were, it still just feels like checking off a To Do list more than enjoying an online experience.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
iamblades said:
The whole coliseum thing just seems to be a 'oh shit ice crown isn't gonna be ready, put something out to buy some time' instance.
Have you done the coliseum? It's pretty lore driven and there's no shortage of bosses. I think it may be getting spread out a little more than normal since it's only being released 1 boss a week, but that and Heroic mode to look forward too I don't think it's a 10 minute job. My guild is still doing Ulduar as well. I think even when the whole ToC comes out we still will. The mace and hard mode items are pretty good.

If the b team designed the T9 sets, then the z team designed the T2.5 sets from AQ 40.

It seems every now and then the artists crap out a completely hideous set of armor for some reason, though I've had issues with some of the gear design in this game since shoulders grew larger than the character's head.

My most wanted feature for the next expansion is updated armor models for the rest of the armor pieces so the artists don't go so crazy with the retarded looking shoulders and helms because those are the only pieces they can actually change the model on. Probably wishful thinking though.

They may look pretty bad, but they get a lot of hate because they're the same across all armor classes. People say that's them 'being lazy' need to learn some basic math. 4 armor sets X 2 factions = 8 armor sets. 2 less than Naxx and Ulduar had, but all the PvP weapons got a model upgrade so it is most assuredly not a cop-out.


I don't even know what tier IC is going to be, since there are three levels of T9 out right now, but I'm hoping for some awesome looking armor to go on top of that instance. I'm figuring since you're getting the armor off these bosses in a frozen palace it's either gonna be covered in saronite like the citadel is, or covered in huge chunks of ice and crystals.
 

EDarkness

Member
Freyjadour said:
It makes for a much less memorable experience overall.

In XI, when I was with an A+ group pulling off huge exp chains, I really felt like I was part of a truly online world. In WoW, the most interaction I usually get leveling is having someone swing by and steal/kill a quest mob/npc. As nice as some of the chains in Wrath were, it still just feels like checking off a To Do list more than enjoying an online experience.

I hated that aspect of FFXI. Chatting with the people was fun, but being forced to group for hours on end just to level or do anything really is not fun for me. If I didn't have to be forced to group with people in that game, I'd still be playing.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
@ The whole dynamic multiplayer experience debate:

Such design is possible, CCP accomplished it with EVE, although it was not their original intention. The downside is that EVE is not nearly as successful as WoW because part of the cost of making one everchanging world is that it's unfriendly to new players, which is the core of Blizzard's design strategy.
 
iamblades said:
The whole coliseum thing just seems to be a 'oh shit ice crown isn't gonna be ready, put something out to buy some time' instance.

If the b team designed the T9 sets, then the z team designed the T2.5 sets from AQ 40.

It seems every now and then the artists crap out a completely hideous set of armor for some reason, though I've had issues with some of the gear design in this game since shoulders grew larger than the character's head.

My most wanted feature for the next expansion is updated armor models for the rest of the armor pieces so the artists don't go so crazy with the retarded looking shoulders and helms because those are the only pieces they can actually change the model on. Probably wishful thinking though.

Actually Blizzard had admitted (around the time of WotLK's release) that Icecrown Citadel was essentially finished (the raid instance itself, perhaps not the mobs or encounters/loot/ect), but didn't want to do the same mistakes they made with TBC in releasing it too early (like they did with BT) and then having a huge amount of nothingness for months on end.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
DiatribeEQ said:
Actually Blizzard had admitted (around the time of WotLK's release) that Icecrown Citadel was essentially finished (the raid instance itself, perhaps not the mobs or encounters/loot/ect), but didn't want to do the same mistakes they made with TBC in releasing it too early (like they did with BT) and then having a huge amount of nothingness for months on end.


Indeed. We're probably gonna get all of the new raid (all bosses + heroics modes) about the time 3.2.2 comes out, that will probably hold us until jan when 3.3 comes out. 4.0 Nov 2010
 

iamblades

Member
Freyjadour said:
It makes for a much less memorable experience overall.

In XI, when I was with an A+ group pulling off huge exp chains, I really felt like I was part of a truly online world. In WoW, the most interaction I usually get leveling is having someone swing by and steal/kill a quest mob/npc. As nice as some of the chains in Wrath were, it still just feels like checking off a To Do list more than enjoying an online experience.

I've never played FF XI, but the games i've played where you were forced to group (AO and EQ mostly) to level were nothing but mind numbing static grinding, standing in one places for hours at a time killing the same mobs over and over again. That is not fun or memorable at all. Its a To Do list the same as wow questing except with only one item on the list:

1. Kill generic mob 1234, repeat.

From what I've read about FF XI, it was basically that with the addition of even more punishing death penalties. I'm sorry, but I'm just not that masochistic.
 

iamblades

Member
DiatribeEQ said:
Actually Blizzard had admitted (around the time of WotLK's release) that Icecrown Citadel was essentially finished (the raid instance itself, perhaps not the mobs or encounters/loot/ect), but didn't want to do the same mistakes they made with TBC in releasing it too early (like they did with BT) and then having a huge amount of nothingness for months on end.

Whether the instance isn't finished or they just aren't ready to release it, it's mostly the same thing. The instance is clearly an appetizer for icecrown.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
iamblades said:
Whether the instance isn't finished or they just aren't ready to release it, it's mostly the same thing. The instance is clearly an appetizer for icecrown.


I don't think they're hiding that. Infact, Tirion Fordring tells you that's why you're there when you start the fights.
 

Shai39

Neo Member
iamblades said:
It seems every now and then the artists crap out a completely hideous set of armor for some reason, though I've had issues with some of the gear design in this game since shoulders grew larger than the character's head.

My most wanted feature for the next expansion is updated armor models for the rest of the armor pieces so the artists don't go so crazy with the retarded looking shoulders and helms because those are the only pieces they can actually change the model on. Probably wishful thinking though.

gu_20070919.jpg
:lol :lol
 

Twig

Banned
EDarkness said:
There's no way that can happen. Otherwise you'd have someone hogging all the glory. Those who can play more than everyone else will be taking away the story from who don't. There is just no way a system like that can happen. You being the hero in your own reality is the way it should be. You can move at your own pace (with a group or not) and still get to see everything along the way. MUDs used to do what you're talking about and it just doesn't work.
Saying "it won't work" is not a valid excuse for not doing it. It could totally work. It's just that it wouldn't be very popular. It'd be one of those niche things.

EVE does it. EVE is perfectly successful, and I bet it will remain successful even longer than WoW. Not with the same abso-fucking-lutely insane numbers, of course.
Depends on the group. The same group of friends I play with pretty much restart things in the same world. Everyone understands that some things aren't permanent and we've played through modules (Slave Pits, anyone?) with different characters starting at the original place.
Right! But like I said, it's not really a valid comparison to MMOs. I don't think you can possibly argue that it is. O: D&D is a very controlled experience, even taking the players' free will into account.
I don't agree with this idea that MMOs MUST cater to groups. In real life we can get by without having to deal with people. I don't see why we have to do so in a game world. It's a huge pain. If you want to group, that's fine, but if you don't want to, that's also fine. The real evolution of the MMO in my mind is when you can pick your pace, be the hero of your own story, and not be forced to group in order to enjoy the game. Sometimes people just want a solo game where the world evolves around you. No reason why MMOs can't do that.
Do not misunderstand me! I'm not saying there should be no solo content. I'm saying there should be no single-player content. I know, the differences aren't great in number, but I think you know what I mean when I say that, right? D:

There's no reason the world can't evolve in ways that aren't things like phasing. Permanence is good. The illusion of permanence is bad. That's all I'm trying to get across.

Phasing is simply the wrong way to go about this sort of thing, in my opinion.

EDIT: I mean, just to reiterate, I am a huge proponent of soloing. Many times have I logged into an MMO and just wanted to play for an hour or so without dealing with other people, and it's great. The people are there if I want them. That's one of those things that makes MMOs so much fun for me. It's just... yeah.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
iamblades said:
MMO doesn't stand for 'nothing but groups'.

There are other types of multiplayer interaction that are possible.

Even if someone levels from 1-80 completely solo, there is still some degree of multiplayer interaction. Auction house trading, pvp, just running past some other dude while questing and saying hey, or tossing a heal on him when he's about to die.

I don't get this mentality that if people don't group for every single activity that they might as well be playing a single player RPG. It isn't remotely the same thing.

Do you believe there should be single player raiding and you should have the exact same rewards as a 10 or 25 man version?
 

webrunner

Member
iamblades said:
The whole coliseum thing just seems to be a 'oh shit ice crown isn't gonna be ready, put something out to buy some time' instance.

Icecrown was always going to be 3.3 and as far as I know still is.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
You know, the more I look around the net at MMO talk. The more I really scratch my head. I guess I'm just getting older. I'm not saying anything in thread prompted this, just in general. I would truly hate to be a MMO developer right now.
 

epmode

Member
I think phasing is rad and I couldn't care less that my other characters didn't see the same changes.

I'll probably resub to WoW for a month or two if this isn't just a rumor.
 

webrunner

Member
Kintaro said:
You know, the more I look around the net at MMO talk. The more I really scratch my head. I guess I'm just getting older. I'm not saying anything in thread prompted this, just in general. I would truly hate to be a MMO developer right now.

You know, I'd like to see a comparison of non-wow mmo numbers compared to the numbers say, eg, Everquest got before Wow hit the scene.

There was a really funny quote from one of the developers (i think it was of Aion) saying they're confident that they can make second place. They've pretty much assumed WOW is unbeatable. Course, they said that about Everquest.
 

tadcalabash

Neo Member
Scrow said:
that simply comes down to personal taste and individual experience.

Exactly, which is one of the reasons I think WoW is so huge. It provides a bunch of different ways to have fun with their game.

No one way is the "correct" one, and I've gone through phases myself where I've preferred a completely single player experience, or leveling up with a buddy, or power leveling other characters, or pugging instances, or taking the same 5 guys through heroics all night, to progression raiding.

To each their own, and blizzard provides.
 

Shai39

Neo Member
webrunner said:
You know, I'd like to see a comparison of non-wow mmo numbers compared to the numbers say, eg, Everquest got before Wow hit the scene.

There was a really funny quote from one of the developers (i think it was of Aion) saying they're confident that they can make second place. They've pretty much assumed WOW is unbeatable. Course, they said that about Everquest.


If you think about it yea there will eventually be a better mmo than WoW. I had to split my time up between FFXI and WoW when i first started up both of them. I eventually stuck with WoW until Square patch a few things then i went back to play FFXI for a while til i got bored with it again. I'm hoping that FFIV fixes the combat system to be a little more free flowing like most others are.
 

-NeoTB1-

Member
Classic Dungeon Revamp
Redesigning Onyxia's Lair in Patch 3.2.2 was just the first step. As most of the leveling will take place in revamped areas of Azeroth, so too will the dungeons, allowing players to use them to level from 80 to 85.​


This alone makes me excited for the expansion. I don't care what else they do - if they were to revamp dungeons like BWL, I would cry happy man tears.
 

EDarkness

Member
Kintaro said:
Do you believe there should be single player raiding and you should have the exact same rewards as a 10 or 25 man version?

Definitely not a popular opinion, but I do. Work is work. Whether it's by yourself or with someone else. Logistics should not be giving the upper hand in any game. People act like a solo person just snaps their fingers and things get done. It just doesn't work that way. I like the idea of "one against many". Twenty-five people ganging up on someone/thing just shows how weak the people are in the first place. If it takes 25 people to down one being, that being would steamroll pretty much everyone, but being able to take that being down by yourself would be more of an accomplishment. No one to fall back on.

Heh, if you don't like that kind of thinking, then avoid any MMO I decide to make. ;)


Saying "it won't work" is not a valid excuse for not doing it. It could totally work. It's just that it wouldn't be very popular. It'd be one of those niche things.

EVE does it. EVE is perfectly successful, and I bet it will remain successful even longer than WoW. Not with the same abso-fucking-lutely insane numbers, of course.

That may be true, but for something to be "mass market" it'll be damn hard to get it to work. I personally don't want to miss out on something because some guy who has more time than me is playing 24/7. It's just not good for the game to have something like this implemented.

What I would like to see are quests that shape the world as you do them. So if you helped the farmer make his fields better for growing wheat, then you would see green fields next season. In your "reality" all right with the world. However, if you wanted to help a friend, then you could "join" their reality as a guest. This way your world is changed by the quests you do. Unlike now when you do a quest to save some village, it's still being overun, even though you saved it. This kind of thing kills the immersion.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
tadcalabash said:
Exactly, which is one of the reasons I think WoW is so huge. It provides a bunch of different ways to have fun with their game.

No one way is the "correct" one, and I've gone through phases myself where I've preferred a completely single player experience, or leveling up with a buddy, or power leveling other characters, or pugging instances, or taking the same 5 guys through heroics all night, to progression raiding.

To each their own, and blizzard provides.

In turning 30, persuing my own business and enjoying MMOs, I believe I took Blizzard and WoW for granted. It really does offer so many different avenues in which to enjoy a game.

Then I want to branch out and see what else is out ehre. I've outgrown FFXI completely. I don't have the time to group to the extent that game demands anymore and it's content isn't conductive to casual play (despite what supporters will say).

Aion is fun, but my Spidey sense are telling me this won't be the game for me. I felt "the grind" at level 17+ alone. Who knows how they will turn out on the way to 50 while trying to juggle PvP on top of it. The game definitely promotes group play, which is good. However, I'm beginning to think I won't have the time or inclination to bother. I'll see though. It's a good filler MMO.

I've tried many times to get into EVE. No can do.

I've enjoyed WAR and LotRO in the past. I bounce between them but they don't seem to hold my interest for long. Champions Online completely turned me off in beta. I wonder if Jumpgate is any good.

So far, I guess all I'm really looking forward to is The Old Republic and Blizzard's next MMO. Maybe FF XIV, but SE has left a bad taste in my mouth with their customer service and content patch schedule from the past.

By far though, the worst part of these games tend to be the communities. Consoles wars have nothing on MMO wars. WoW vs This. WoW vs. That. The WoW Killers. Blah blah blah. To be honest, these communities do more harm than good for the game. Aion's community has almost turned me completely off the game because these are the fools I'll be playing with. Yuck. Anything remotely constructive is met with hostility the likes Sony vs. MS vs. Nintendo freaks can dream.

I'm getting too old for this nonsense.
 

CassSept

Member
Nirolak said:
Nah, we've been following this list almost to a tee ever since it leaked way back when:


It's gotten somewhat less accurate over time, but considering it's supposedly from 2003, it's been really solid so far.
Sheesh, this list is from mid-07, cut already the 2003 crap.
It was first posted a bit before blizzcon on which WotLK was announced, and somehow passed as "list from 2003", even though nobody has any proof it is older than that.
 

Interfectum

Member
Kintaro said:
In turning 30, persuing my own business and enjoying MMOs, I believe I took Blizzard and WoW for granted. It really does offer so many different avenues in which to enjoy a game.

Then I want to branch out and see what else is out ehre. I've outgrown FFXI completely. I don't have the time to group to the extent that game demands anymore and it's content isn't conductive to casual play (despite what supporters will say).

Aion is fun, but my Spidey sense are telling me this won't be the game for me. I felt "the grind" at level 17+ alone. Who knows how they will turn out on the way to 50 while trying to juggle PvP on top of it. The game definitely promotes group play, which is good. However, I'm beginning to think I won't have the time or inclination to bother. I'll see though. It's a good filler MMO.

I've tried many times to get into EVE. No can do.

I've enjoyed WAR and LotRO in the past. I bounce between them but they don't seem to hold my interest for long. Champions Online completely turned me off in beta. I wonder if Jumpgate is any good.

So far, I guess all I'm really looking forward to is The Old Republic and Blizzard's next MMO. Maybe FF XIV, but SE has left a bad taste in my mouth with their customer service and content patch schedule from the past.

By far though, the worst part of these games tend to be the communities. Consoles wars have nothing on MMO wars. WoW vs This. WoW vs. That. The WoW Killers. Blah blah blah. To be honest, these communities do more harm than good for the game. Aion's community has almost turned me completely off the game because these are the fools I'll be playing with. Yuck. Anything remotely constructive is met with hostility the likes Sony vs. MS vs. Nintendo freaks can dream.

I'm getting too old for this nonsense.

You sound like me. I eventually just keep going back to WoW.

I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I'll end up being a "Blizzard only" gamer in the next 5-6 years. Between SC2, D3, WoW and their new MMO I won't have much time for anything else anyway. :lol
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
Interfectum said:
You sound like me. I eventually just keep going back to WoW.

I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I'll end up being a "Blizzard only" gamer in the next 5-6 years. Between SC2, D3, WoW and their new MMO I won't have much time for anything else anyway. :lol

You know, that's probably not such a bad thing.
 

falastini

Member
EDarkness said:
Definitely not a popular opinion, but I do. Work is work.


I have to disagree. Completing content on your own, regardless of the difficulty, does not compare to the coordination and effort required do complete it with a raid full of people. Thus if you reward both equally, what's the point of raiding? Everyone would just solo all the content.

In a full 25 man raid, if a few people screw up, that generally means a wipe. Imagine having to complete content with that many people consistently not screwing up. Not only that, but the complexity of the raid content would have to be dumbed down if it was designed with a solo player in mind. The way Bliz designs the raids now is usually dependent on the fact that the raid includes at least one of each class type. Every class has a specialty they bring to the raid, not only in buffs and crowd control, but for countering the boss mechanics Blizzard puts in. If it was designed with one player in mind, it would be a much simpler encounter by default.
 

Grampasso

Member
Freyjadour said:
It makes for a much less memorable experience overall.

In XI, when I was with an A+ group pulling off huge exp chains, I really felt like I was part of a truly online world. In WoW, the most interaction I usually get leveling is having someone swing by and steal/kill a quest mob/npc. As nice as some of the chains in Wrath were, it still just feels like checking off a To Do list more than enjoying an online experience.
Indeed.
Standing in a place, waiting for the tank to bring a mob near the group to nuke it in a safe zone and continue grinding until the next level... that's pure fun.
No. That's just boring.
 

mclem

Member
EDarkness said:
Definitely not a popular opinion, but I do. Work is work. Whether it's by yourself or with someone else. Logistics should not be giving the upper hand in any game. People act like a solo person just snaps their fingers and things get done. It just doesn't work that way. I like the idea of "one against many". Twenty-five people ganging up on someone/thing just shows how weak the people are in the first place. If it takes 25 people to down one being, that being would steamroll pretty much everyone, but being able to take that being down by yourself would be more of an accomplishment. No one to fall back on.

One of the things I have to commend Blizzard on is the fact that they managed something I doubted that they could; they managed to make 10-man encounters that felt similar to the 25-man ones without gimping the encounters too much. I think there's a limit to that, though, and I don't believe one-man raids could be that interesting or challenging.

Out of interest - because it might be a lack of imagination on my part - can you come up with a 1-man Yogg-Saron fight which doesn't feel like it cheapens the feel of the existing fight?
 

dave is ok

aztek is ok
mclem said:
Out of interest - because it might be a lack of imagination on my part - can you come up with a 1-man Yogg-Saron fight which doesn't feel like it cheapens the feel of the existing fight?
I trust Blizzard to do anything.

The best one man encounter design they have done is probably that event in Blades Edge where you control the different demons and fight three or four bosses in a row.
 
to adress the problem that many players will never see the higher raids
how about a hero mode: your char gets buffed to a cant die and superstrong mode maybe with some npcs who help you (at the point where you enter that dungeon/raid) and then you can go to any dungeon / raid and complete it to have a firsthand experience. in this mode there will be no drops at all its just so that you can see all new content that you would have never seen otherwise.

for me its allways like this: i see the entrance raids like all t4 content and everything of t7 but then the random groups wont do the next step like t8 etc and all i see is the first raids and the rest i have to watch in video form :(
i dont want a raiding guild because i cant raid every week at the same time.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
maniac-kun said:
to adress the problem that many players will never see the higher raids
how about a hero mode: your char gets buffed to a cant die and superstrong mode maybe with some nps who help you (at the point where you enter that dungeon/raid) and then you can go to any dungeon / raid and complete it to have a firsthand experience. in this mode there will be no drops at all its just so that you can see all new content that you would have never seen otherwise.

That's not a bad idea.
 

mclem

Member
dave is ok said:
I trust Blizzard to do anything.

The best one man encounter design they have done is probably that event in Blades Edge where you control the different demons and fight three or four bosses in a row.

I agree, that's great (although I don't quite get how people can hate vehicle fights and love this, given they're fundamentally the same thing). However, you're not playing yourself; every player who enters it gets set to a specific set of abilities.

That is a way of doing interesting one-player encounters, but at what point does it stop being "your character is fighting a monster" and start being "you've placed 10p/25cents/a crystalforged darkrune in the slot and now you're playing this arcade game"?
 

speedpop

Has problems recognising girls
maniac-kun said:
to adress the problem that many players will never see the higher raids
how about a hero mode: your char gets buffed to a cant die and superstrong mode maybe with some npcs who help you (at the point where you enter that dungeon/raid) and then you can go to any dungeon / raid and complete it to have a firsthand experience. in this mode there will be no drops at all its just so that you can see all new content that you would have never seen otherwise.
That's a brilliant idea. People might complain about the achievements being completed in an easy way, but I for one will most likely never see Illidan die, even though it's written in the lore that he is now deceased.

Only way I get to see the event unfold is through other guild's videos with shitty electronic music to make it feel as though it needed another level of "epicness"
 

Wrekt

Member
Kintaro said:
Do you believe there should be single player raiding and you should have the exact same rewards as a 10 or 25 man version?
I don't think solo instances are that bad of an idea. Especially if they could tailor encounters and drops to each individual class. They would finally have a place for all that spell power plate and librams/idols/totems.

I think rewards should be based on difficulty, not about how many people you have in your raid. Finding 24 other people is inherently harder than doing a solo instance but it is harder to heal the Black Knight in heroic ToC than it is to heal Noth in Naxx 25 man and I'm glad the rewards reflect that.
 

mclem

Member
Kintaro said:
That's not a bad idea.
Wouldn't Battle for the Undercity be basically what he wants, albeit applied to the raid instances?

There's some issues with it, most notably pacing ones; Battle for the Undercity is quite brief, whereas even super-powered and immortal I'd expect a raid would take one to two hours (but then, on the other hand, if you're immortal there's no reason to take it slow; I await the sights of people trailing Razuvious and a huge pile of mobs to the Gothik room).

Battle for the Undercity worked because it was designed as a somewhat haphazard charge into enemy territory, it was intended for people to throw themselves into it somewhat headlong. That's not how existing raids are designed.


The other worry I'd have is that I suspect this wouldn't actually satisfy you. It sounds great on paper, but ultimately you're not *really* participating, despite what it might look like. I fear it'd feel hollow. Why dance with Heigan? Why stay out of the void zones? Why stay out of the fire? Why bother trying to stop Searing Flames?

If everything's a tank and spank - with a caveat that the tank is immortal - then what are you actually doing that's so different from Hogger?
 
Kintaro said:
You know, the more I look around the net at MMO talk. The more I really scratch my head. I guess I'm just getting older. I'm not saying anything in thread prompted this, just in general. I would truly hate to be a MMO developer right now.

One of the thing that's put me off from coming back for 3.2 is the focusing more and more on the end game and the best of those who do it.

Only the fights that drop the best loot are "active" to the player base. (Due to EoCs from heroics and even Ulduar becoming overwhelmable much easier due to insanely higher ToGC loot).

Nerfs and buffs occuring due to what the best players of those classes can squeeze out of the previous iteration. (PRIESTS!!!!)

Impossiblility of focusing at all on leveling goodies post x.0. (Eighty-bajillion boosts to xp gained, less XP to level, bigger quest xp, RAF, etc. make leveling a week's work now, so doing it for new players is rather useless.)

It's almost as if the sheer speed of everything makes anything but the latest and greatest Hot "New" Dungeon *coughOnycough* is what everyone is doing, and a month later everyone's sick of it cuz it's blindingly easy to get due to rubber-band gearing. Repeat over and over, faster and faster. Hose people down with epics, everyone. This is what they're doing instead of making loads of good looking T9, or a new dungeon and a new raid instead of ONE DAMN ROOM FOR ALL THREE SIZES, heh. Everyone has the same accomplishments, but now that that's possible, the accomplishments are worth less since you're getting recycled, recolored, quickly stale stuff.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
mclem said:
The other worry I'd have is that I suspect this wouldn't actually satisfy you. It sounds great on paper, but ultimately you're not *really* participating, despite what it might look like. I fear it'd feel hollow. Why dance with Heigan? Why stay out of the void zones? Why stay out of the fire? Why bother trying to stop Searing Flames?

If everything's a tank and spank - with a caveat that the tank is immortal - then what are you actually doing that's so different from Hogger?

i'm sure you mean "you" in a general sense. Personally, it would satisfy me for the simple reason that I could SEE those things at all. that's the reward in itself. Having to do the same in a group instance would also be a reward as well in that you have to do the encounter the way its intended, learn and grow with it and be rewarded with loot on top of the content.

But that's me personally. I do see your point. It's a good one.

SatelliteOfLove said:
It's almost as if the sheer speed of everything makes anything but the latest and greatest Hot "New" Dungeon *coughOnycough* is what everyone is doing, and a month later everyone's sick of it cuz it's blindingly easy to get due to rubber-band gearing. Repeat over and over, faster and faster. Hose people down with epics, everyone. This is what they're doing instead of making loads of good looking T9, or a new dungeon and a new raid instead of ONE DAMN ROOM FOR ALL THREE SIZES, heh. Everyone has the same accomplishments, but now that that's possible, the accomplishments are worth less since you're getting recycled, recolored, quickly stale stuff.

It's a catch 22. No question. That's why I would hate to be an MMO developer unless you are SET in your visiion. WoW was pretty damn tough in vanilla because of many factors. A lot of people did not get to see the content blizzard worked hard on. Same with TBC to a lesser extent. The question become: How do we get people in to see all this content we worked so hard on? How do we include new things into the game so everyone has a better chance to SEE it?

The choice was to make it more accessable at the cost of some players feeling they are no longer "special" or "accomplished" That's what I gleam from it. I honestly can't blame them for the choice. Some people do.

I wish Blizzard would reveal some stats on what % of the userbase has seen and completed what content though. I have a feeling it would shut people up a bit.
 
Kintaro said:
i'm sure you mean "you" in a general sense. Personally, it would satisfy me for the simple reason that I could SEE those things at all. that's the reward in itself. Having to do the same in a group instance would also be a reward as well in that you have to do the encounter the way its intended, learn and grow with it and be rewarded with loot on top of the content.

But that's me personally. I do see your point. It's a good one.



It's a catch 22. No question. That's why I would hate to be an MMO developer unless you are SET in your visiion. WoW was pretty damn tough in vanilla because of many factors. A lot of people did not get to see the content blizzard worked hard on. Same with TBC to a lesser extent. The question become: How do we get people in to see all this content we worked so hard on? How do we include new things into the game so everyone has a better chance to SEE it?

The choice was to make it more accessable at the cost of some players feeling they are no longer "special" or "accomplished" That's what I gleam from it. I honestly can't blame them for the choice. Some people do.

I wish Blizzard would reveal some stats on what % of the userbase has seen and completed what content though. I have a feeling it would shut people up a bit.
thats why i will switch to diablo 3 once its out its not that exclusive and you will be able to see all content
 

PatzCU

Member
Interfectum said:
You sound like me. I eventually just keep going back to WoW.

I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I'll end up being a "Blizzard only" gamer in the next 5-6 years. Between SC2, D3, WoW and their new MMO I won't have much time for anything else anyway. :lol

This is something I have realized about myself as well. I keep wanting to build some super hardcore PC; however, I'll probably just buy a decent, high-powered laptop that I can connect to my HDTV and become a 'Blizzard only' gamer as well (also Valve).

Nothing wrong with it, they make great games and don't require an obscene amount of time to find the fun. I'm looking forward to the new WoW expansion. I've found my niche with WoW finally after all these years. I like to casually PvE collecting badges and whatnot, and then do some Arena as my 'hardcore' activity. I'm still having a great time with the game and I can make real progress only playing an hour a day.
 

tadcalabash

Neo Member
Kintaro said:
The question become: How do we get people in to see all this content we worked so hard on? How do we include new things into the game so everyone has a better chance to SEE it?

The choice was to make it more accessable at the cost of some players feeling they are no longer "special" or "accomplished"

Yeah, I've been impressed with the way Blizzard has improved the game in this way... straddling the line of opening up more of the game to more people while still keeping the "hardcore" players generally happy.

Lots of baby steps towards a more open game. Just as they open up old stuff and people say "Hey, what I worked hard for is no longer unique and special" they create some more stuff they can work towards.
 

Raiden

Banned
After all this talk and speculation, is there anything official here? Are we sure there is gonna be another expansion?
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
Tamanon said:
Of course there's nothing official yet, Blizzcon is still a couple days away. It'll be official then.

Speaking of Blizzcon, i wonder if many WoW players will do something over there to show their frustration with the "Instances cannot be launched" issue. It's pretty bad currently and everyone is mad after them for taking so long to fix it. Some of them said on the WoW forums that they will do things over at Blizzcon, but i wonder if they will actually do something. I sure wish, the situation is ridiculous.

The updated Onyxia fight will be unplayable if 3.22 is released before they fix this. Old World instances are already impossible to play unless you want to hump the instances portals for 30 mins or more. Can you imagine hundreds of Hordes & Alliances at the Onyxia's Lair gates waiting to get inside? PVP fights will sure be fun.
 
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