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[gofreak]

A bill introduced Tuesday by Rep. Charles Rangel of New York is unlikely to become law -- the Pentagon opposes it -

Of course they do *









*Until after the election

 

[Cooter]

Reading Cooter's posts kinda make me sick. It's like listening to a lawyer defending a rapist. It has to be at least a little tongue-in-cheek, right? You can't be completely serious

The feeling is mutual.

 

[Saint Cornelius]

The feeling is mutual.

It's really a shame that you had to go and breed, man.

 

[Cooter]

It's really a shame that you had to go and breed, man.

Oh, that hurt. Please stop, you're cutting deep now.

 

[gofreak]

Is Iraq not the heart of the middle east where terrorist are bred and did 9/11 not stand as a wake up call to their capabilities?

None of the 9/11 terrorists came from Iraq. They came from our good friend in Saudi Arabia. Iraq wanted nothing to do with Al-Qaeda. That's like saying "the attack came from over there, so let's just go for the middle and see what happens". Of course, it was actually more calculated than that..but calculated based on different variables (revenge, oil, perceived popular boost from "gitten saddam!" etc.). I'm not sure what your point is - the terrorists were coming from Iraq?

I'd also like to preemptively make the point that the highly active and most vicious terrorists currently in Iraq are undoubtedly outsiders. The war in Iraq bred far more terrorists there than there ever were before. The Iraq war has been a bigger recruitment poster for terrorism than I had ever expected.

edit - I'd also like to point out ; these are simple opinions. Let's not get personal over this. I have my opinions, I think Bush is a prick, and Kerry would be a better president. Cooter thinks Bush should be re-elected. Fair enough. It's grand to debate these things, but it's worrying how personally divisive these things seem to be.

 

[StoOgE]

The entire world thought he had WMD's

I would disagree with this statement on face, because I know alot of people in this country that were simply not convinced of this fact. I personally thought he had WMD's, but there were those that doubted it on face (especially after UN inspectors went to many of the locations that were shown to the UN as 'proof' and found nothing). However, even if I grant you that it is true that everyone thought he had WMD's, it was the president that pushed to go to war on that premise instead of giving the inspectors more time. It was not just his belief that they had WMD's but the speedy entrance to war over that belief that is the problem.

We still might in the long run

In the long run that money will be in Iraqi control (or at least should be). We were hoping for that money in the short term to offset some of the costs for rebuilding the country. The 'long term' was not the original goal, and we are paying out of pocket for it now. Though, to be fair because of the current problems in the country we havent really been able to spend most of the appropriated money at the sort of pace we had originally intended, so much of that money we were hoping to offset the loss of is still in our hands.

We were at first. Attitudes have since changed but they can change again just as easily

That isnt universally true to begin with, and even those who did greet us in that way wanted us out of the country very quickly (for the most part). Lets face it, this isnt exactly WWII France here, and the situation has deteriorated rapidly and isnt really showing signs of getting better. The presidents claim that we would be greeted as liberators was intended to show that there wouldnt be the type of insurgency that we are experiencing now (hell, they maintained that these insurgents were Saddam Loyalists for months). It seems clear that the aftermath of the war is not the picture that was painted for us.

Maybe not gone but out of power, yes

They do control regions of the country still, they are still a threat on the ground.. and many of the people that have displaced them are war lords and poppie farmers. Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire. That whole situation is still a mess, and even the pockets of the country we do control are not very secure (how many attempts on Karzi's life have there been?)

Try the end of 2005.

They still are withdrawing their troups well before we will be through in Iraq (in all likelyhood). Plus, you have to admit it was hilariously good timing.

False

Mission Complete. They arranged the podium, where the troups were standing and even had the president land in a military plane on the deck of the carrier, and your telling me that they DIDNT know that massive banner was there? Oh, the Navy made that banner. Hey, when my cousins ship returned to port after being stationed in the gulf for nearly 12 months they didnt get a giant banner proclaiming their mission was over. End of major fighting in Iraq (how many more have died after the end of major operations in Iraq? Lately the president has stopped beating the drum of victory, but there was a timer period where he was jumping the gun in a very big way.

I don't recall the president using the word great but nevertheless, the economy is experiencing the largest growth in 20 years.

Yes, the largest growth in 20 years because it had one of the largest collapses in that time period right before it. The economy is still weaker overall than when he joined office, and the net sum is jobs lost over his presidency (this doesnt even account for the fact that you need to add around a million jobs a year just to keep up for growth in the workforce population).

There has been two million jobs in the past 13 months

Eh, see above.

Only true statement in his entire rant.

I dont know why I even quoted this, but its done and so it stays.

 

[Mercury Fred]

It's really a shame that you had to go and breed, man.

Don't worry. She's bound to become a lesbian who despises daddy dearest and everything he stands for.

 

[human5892]

I think Cerebral Palsy made a fantastic rebuttal.

Cooter: you're up!

 

[Che]

The entire world thought he had WMD's

ARE YOU STUPID?!?!?!?

 

[gofreak]

I wouldn't necessarily disagree that the entire world suspected he had WMDs. The level of suspicion undoubtedly varied, however. I would point however, that most other countries thought the approach of containment was working. And in hindsight, it actually was. If I recall the latest report on Iraq's weapons, I believe they said that he scrapped his nuclear ambitions after the war, that no other WMDs were found etc. etc. That he may have wanted to resume those activities in the future was kind of irrelevant if the policy of containment was working, and was allowed to continue to work..he may have wanted to, but probably would never have had the opportunity.

 

[Saint Cornelius]

Don't worry. She's bound to become a lesbian who despises daddy dearest and everything he stands for.

"I'd like to thank the Senator for his kind words regarding my family"

"...Is that it?"

"..."

 

[Che]

I wouldn't necessarily disagree that the entire world suspected he had WMDs. The level of suspicion undoubtedly varied, however. I would point however, that most other countries thought the approach of containment was working. And in hindsight, it actually was. If I recall the latest report on Iraq's weapons, I believe they said that he scrapped his nuclear ambitions after the war, that no other WMDs were found etc. etc. That he may have wanted to resume those activities in the future was kind of irrelevant if the policy of containment was working, and was allowed to continue to work..he may have wanted to, but probably would never have had the opportunity.

I would. the 10 millions plus who demonstrated did. Noone was certain that Saddam had WMDs. Unlike the media in USA, in Europe (except maybe UK) noone was confidently assuming that Saddam had WMDs, especially after Saddam allowed the WMD inspectors to enter Iraq.

 

[Cooter]

At human's request..............

And we still might not in the long run. Good arguement.

The situation needs to be looked at in a 15-20 span. To expect everything to be hunky-dory in 2 years is foolish.

Wow, this is a strong arguement. Works great when you can't really answer a question. Let's see if you use it a 3rd or 4th time!

The point is, we were greeted as liberators. Time has eroded much of that support but after elections I predict attitudes will change

Out of power!? The U.S. doesn't have control of the majority of the country. Who do you think does?

Warloads. Many of who are not former Taliban.

Oh, I feel so much better now! And you think we're going to be out of Iraq by the end 2005? Iraq's fucking mess of a current state, and 14 military bases being constructed say otherwise.

No but by the end of 2005 the Iraqi military will be much larger and able to handle much more responsibility.

Really? I've heard Bush call Iraq a "success" numerous times.

He’s never said things are going great. Our initial mission was a success. The fact that attacks have picked up the closer we get to elections does not mean it still hasn’t been a success.

Nice spin. We've lost over a million jobs in the U.S., but wait!!! There is good news in all of this. We've still experienced the largest economic growth in 20 years! Yeah, I mean we are still down a million jobs, but the growth to get to this point has been A-FUCKING-MAZING!! OMG, OH YEAH!!!!

We have not lost over a million jobs. That is false. It is around 700,000. Considering we lost one million jobs one month after 9/11 I would say the economy is doing better than expected.

Read above. And how many of these jobs are minimum wage, incomes below the national poverty level, $5.25 an hour jobs?

I assure you not all of them are low paying jobs. That is ridiculous.

EDIT:

I counted no less than 10 people in this thread all opposed to me so it pains me to tell you I have to depart now. Sorry I couldn't single handily keep this thread going.

Later....

 

[Che]

The point is, we were greeted as liberators. Time has eroded much of that support but after elections I predict attitudes will change

Again no. Again

The couple of hundrend well-paid traitors Iraqis who went out to celebrate their country's occupation so that the media can record the "celebrations", had nothing to do with the majority of the population who felt scared, betrayed by Saddam or his generals and hate for the invaders. Stop watching Fox News (and the american media in general) you're pissing me off with your ignorance.

He’s never said things are going great. Our initial mission was a success. The fact that attacks have picked up the closer we get to elections does not mean it still hasn’t been a success.

Initial mission? Yeah tell that to Israel. Their initial "mission" was a success.

 

[gofreak]

The situation needs to be looked at in a 15-20 span. To expect everything to be hunky-dory in 2 years is foolish.

"Mission Accomplished!"

So I guess, Bush = fool.

 

[gofreak]

I would. the 10 millions plus who demonstrated did. Noone was certain that Saddam had WMDs. Unlike the media in USA, in Europe (except maybe UK) noone was confidently assuming that Saddam had WMDs, especially after Saddam allowed the WMD inspectors to enter Iraq.

When I say most of the world, i mean, most of the world's governments. And I said suspected, not "were certain" or "confidently assumed".

 

[Che]

When I say most of the world, i mean, most of the world's governments. And I said suspected, not "were certain" or "confidently assumed".

Ok. I get your point. The problem is -and that's for Cooter- you don't have to "suspect" to make a war. You have to "be certain". And even then, you try to find a peaceful solution before you make war. Comprente?

 

[Diablos]

Cooter I feel really bad for you.

We were at first. Attitudes have since changed but they can change again just as easily

Perfect example. Most Iraqis never wanted us there to begin with. And now it's only worse.
Cooter, if we ever get drafted, maybe I can meet up with you somewhere in Iraq. If we get attacked I'll make sure you will be the first one to run towards the enemy in hopes of shooting him down. Then maybe we'll see how much you think we're fighting for fucking freedom and liberating the country.

 

[Spike Spiegel]

Wouldn't a bill to reinstate the draft have to pass through the House and Senate first?

Perfect example. Most Iraqis never wanted us there to begin with.

Yes, they were much happier with Saddam. You can see it written on their faces.

 

[Diablos]

...and if it does you can bet there is gonna be a massive amount of protesting. I for one will protest until I cannot protest any longer.

 

[Dilbert]

I counted no less than 10 people in this thread all opposed to me so it pains me to tell you I have to depart now. Sorry I couldn't single handily keep this thread going.

Later....

The number against doesn't matter if you are really speaking the truth. YOUR statement tells me that you are a complete pussy who has nothing else to say since your arguments just got leveled. Very, VERY weak shit for you to pull a Ripclawe.

 

[videogamer]

...and if it does you can bet there is gonna be a massive amount of protesting. I for one will protest until I cannot protest any longer.

don't forget about the power of the bully pulpit. Remember how congress fell to Bush's arguments for war?

 

[StoOgE]

If there is a draft they will have to arrest my ass. Draft Dodgers and Conciencious objectors are pussies... they are gonna have to gas my happy ass and send me downriver for a few years.

In the words of Thoreau, "Beware all enterprises that require new clothes".

 

[GG-Duo]

Finally, a little fire.

 

[Cooter]

The number against doesn't matter if you are really speaking the truth. YOUR statement tells me that you are a complete pussy who has nothing else to say since your arguments just got leveled. Very, VERY weak shit for you to pull a Ripclawe.

Oh, please jinx.

Believe it or not but some people can't sit around this forum all day and when they leave it isn't always because they are a pussy but they actually have to go take care of responsibilities.

Let me state for the record that I have 45 minutes left to debate and after that I will be leaving. Not leaving because I am a pussy but because I have to meet a client. Is that sufficient jinx?

 

[Saint Cornelius]

Oooh, 45 more minutes of uninformed idiocy from Cooter! I know I can hardly wait.

 

[SteveMeister]

I assure you not all of them are low paying jobs. That is ridiculous.

I suggest you take a look at this PDF chart. It compares the average salary in growing industries -- that is, industries that have seen growth in the number of jobs in the US -- with the average salary in contracting industries -- industries that have seen shrinkage in the number of jobs in the US -- from the end of the recession through November of 2003. The numbers are sobering -- on average throughout the United States, salaries are 25% LOWER now than before the recession. In some states average salaries are 30 to 40% lower.

What this chart is showing us is that job growth has come at the cost of employee salary. In other words, people who were laid off are getting new jobs, but in general they are lower paying. In fact, many of these jobs don't offer health coverage

So while the Bush administration is correct in saying that there has been some job growth, there are two problems with that statement.

First, as the chart and info above show, there may be job growth but the people getting those jobs are worse off than they were before the recession, and second, even WITH that job growth, overall the net jobs is still LOWER through Bush's presidency. GW Bush IS the first president since before Harry Truman to lose net jobs during his term:

And there have been a number of recessions and wars in that timeframe.

 

[duderon]

Wouldn't a bill to reinstate the draft have to pass through the House and Senate first?

Yes, they were much happier with Saddam. You can see it written on their faces.

They might not have been happy with Saddam, but they sure as hell didn't want someone invading their country.

 

[bishoptl]

Guess that 45 minutes flew by a bit faster than expected.

 

[cvxfreak]

Great, great, great demonstration of how god-awful Bush's administration is.

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

Sure...blame it all on Bush. The economy was on a downturn before he took office. Unfortunately, he had to clean up the mess left by a 2-term lame duck president.

Everyone thought Saddam had WMDs or was in the process of making them. I say it's better to find out the way we did - and I pray for those lives that have been lost and those courageously fighting - than to see the evidence of weapons in the form of a mushroom cloud.

 

[Outdoor Miner]

Sure...blame it all on Bush. The economy was on a downturn before he took office. Unfortunately, he had to clean up the mess left by a 2-term lame duck president.

OMFG, you did not just say that, did you?

He got Clinton's economic mess? Oh please, pretty please, back this up with some charts-links-studies.

 

[StoOgE]

and I pray for those lives that have been lost and those courageously fighting

See kids, this is how the religious right pretends to care about people that it gets killed.

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

Actually, the biggest problem with the economy at that time (9/11) can't really be attributed to the president. (9/11) Companies were riding high on the false dreams that the internet and all the dot.com business were going to reap huge profits. When everyone finally (9/11) woke up, we found ourselves in a (9/11)position where companies were slashing employees left and right, companies going under, and people losing their asses in stocks/401ks etc.

Also...we must never forget the events that occurred on September 11th, 2001.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Actually, the biggest problem with the economy at that time (9/11) can't really be attributed to the president. (9/11) Companies were riding high on the false dreams that the internet and all the dot.com business were going to reap huge profits. When everyone finally (9/11) woke up, we found ourselves in a (9/11)position where companies were slashing employees left and right, companies going under, and people losing their asses in stocks/401ks etc.

Also...we must never forget the events that occurred on September 11th, 2001.

Are you a joke character or something?

 

[bishoptl]

Yes.

 

[videogamer]

nm

 

[StoOgE]

Also...we must never forget the events that occurred on September 11th, 2001.

See kids, this is how the religious right ties everything back to events that enrage people, even if they are unrelated.

Yeah, I think this is a joke characther too.. I would have bought it (is he that much worse than Cooter?) until this 9/11 comment.

 

[Forgotten Ancient]

Originally Posted by Forgotten Ancient:
and I pray for those lives that have been lost and those courageously fighting


See kids, this is how the religious right pretends to care about people that it gets killed.

I completely agree that there are many out there that "care" about the lives that are being lost today. Please don't label me as one of the pretenders, for you don't know me nor my present situation.

I have a brother in the Marines who is stationed over in Baghdad. Trust me, I pray for his safe return every night. Also, I enlisted in the military last April and looked forward to defending my country. Unfortunately, I tore a rotator cuff while in training, and had to get arthropscopic surgery. While I was seeing the doctor it was discovered that I had asthma (I knew this...but my recruiter told me it was ok and they would never find out). I was released immediately.

So, again, please don't label me as one of the heartless many who don't really give a shit who lives and who dies as long as they get ahold of some Black gold.

 

[Socreges]

Tim Ryan > *

The most reasonable Republican apologist could do as much as pick at the wording. Ryan was pretty much bang on and, overall, made an excellent point.

You mean with the yelling, screaming and occasionally fighting? Hey you get 1 and 2 in the Senate and Congress....

Despite the absense of absolute order, the freedom of the House of Commons makes for a FAR BETTER political community. Regarding Canada, as well as the UK.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

At human's request..............

Sure it would have been ignored otherwise.

The situation needs to be looked at in a 15-20 span. To expect everything to be hunky-dory in 2 years is foolish.

I fail to see where I said I expected everything to be "hunky-dory" in only 2 years. You on other hand, would rather assume everything will be "hunky-dory" down the road. Unfortunately, we're all living in the present, and Iraq is presently a fucking mess.

The point is, we were greeted as liberators. Time has eroded much of that support but after elections I predict attitudes will change

Now we're greeted as the occupation we really are, regardless of what Bush says. I love your blanket statements, however. Time has eroded much of the little support we had from the Iraqi people? What, they got bored supporting us or something? No, the absolutely fucking ass state we have let Iraq become has eroded the support. Support I feel was little to non-existent in the first place. But please do explain how an election, where the majority of the country's population probably won't even be able to participate in, is going to change this.

Warloads. Many of who are not former Taliban.

They aren't all former Taliban? Just warlords? Thank god, now I can sleep better at night.

No but by the end of 2005 the Iraqi military will be much larger and able to handle much more responsibility.

The Iraqi military is going to solve our problems in only a little over a year? What happened to 15-20 year span? You think the Iraqi military will be large enough, and have enough training to sustain the current Iraqi puppet government without heavy U.S. involvement? Last I heared Iraqi soldiers were jumping to the other side in droves. And for a war the U.S. population seems to be so divided on, I don't predict many people wll be running to enlist in the military. No, not even the pro-war Bush supporters. I know you would, but you enlisting isn't really crucial to the war in Iraq overall, right? So, I take it you see a draft coming then?

He’s never said things are going great. Our initial mission was a success. The fact that attacks have picked up the closer we get to elections does not mean it still hasn’t been a success.

I don't remember claiming that Bush had said Iraq is going great. Rather, Bush has said numerous times that the Iraq war has been a success, and is currently succesful. Bush hasn't merely stated that the initial mission was a success, and that we've made mistakes since that need to be corrected. No, Bush will admit no fault, saying that the soldiers in Iraq won't fight for a President who feels what they are fighting for is a mistake. No, Bush apparently feels that soldiers will want to fight under a President who constantly lies, and will not admit to any mistakes so they can be corrected.

We have not lost over a million jobs. That is false. It is around 700,000. Considering we lost one million jobs one month after 9/11 I would say the economy is doing better than expected.

I really don't have the time to stat hunt right now, so I'll assume your 700,000 number is correct. 700,000 doesn't make me feel anymore confident than the million figure. We have had a net loss of private sector jobs at about 2.9ish million under Bush, which is where the Republicans start pulling out their spin. Largest growth ever! What they fail to remind you is that this growth occurred when we were millions of jobs in the hole, and that we are still in the red. Bush is the first President in what, 75 or so years, to actually have a net loss of jobs? Ontop of that we have the deficit issues. Bush, Bush Sr., and Reagan have proven Republicans aren't fiscally responsible, nor "conservative" when it comes to spending. Bush has also done absolutely nothing to stop the exportation of jobs, and has cut funding from middle class/low income programs for tax breaks that benefited these income brackets the least. I'm especially angry about Bush's 2000 campaign promises to raise the maximum cap for students loans, a program I depend on. What did he do? Capped off the maximum at over $1,000 less than what was promised. Sorry If I don't see the cup as being half full on this one.

I assure you not all of them are low paying jobs. That is ridiculous.

I assure you that most of them are not high income jobs. That is rediculous.

 

[DarienA]

Tim Ryan > *

The most reasonable Republican apologist could do as much as pick at the wording. Ryan was pretty much bang on and, overall, made an excellent point.


Despite the absense of absolute order, the freedom of the House of Commons makes for a FAR BETTER political community. Regarding Canada, as well as the UK.

Oh I agree I wasn't saying that to knock it...

You know the upcoming election has brought out the joke characters and the.... touched like there is no tomorrow....

Sorry I'm just getting on Cooter I forgot tonight we had to watch the next chapter of our Lamaze video looks like someone else took up the debate with you though.

 

[Drozmight]

I could say the economy here, but I know there's more to it than just him, and I'm not an economist, so I'll leave that one.

Yeah there are only really two major policies that effect the economy and the government only controls one: fiscal policy. The president doesn't make the budget either, he can just veto it and even then the house can over ride his veto if they want. The president seriously gets so much credit, and also blame, for things he can't control.

 

[EdLuva]

haha

Tim went off, and he was still talking as he was leaving the podium. :lol