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[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I was referring to Cena in that post not reigns.

However, being the best merchandise seller while your audience continues to dwindle doesn't really mean much. I'm sure that Diesel and Shawn Michaels were at or near the top of merchandise sales too.

Roman Reigns hasn't been champion in a year. He went on last because the Undertaker retired. He's not the problem or the top guy, but he's the hottest act in wrestling.

Only Punk returning could get a crowd to react like it's 1999 again, which was how it felt last night when Roman was in the ring.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Have you guys talked about Raw last night with someone who's only started watching in the last few years?

You know the only people they've ever seen get reactions like Roman got last night? Stephanie, Triple H, or Nakamura. They don't know Raws that start with crowds going fucking nuts for 15 minutes. They do now.

You guys are missing the hottest shit happening right in your face because you've gotten so cynical.

 

[Jezbollah]

Reigns is probably selling the most merch so fans can burn it

Spoiler

/s

The kind of reaction he gets week in, week out is worth gold to the company.

So. Shinsuke to Smackdown tonight?

 

[StrikeNinja24]

Have you guys talked about Raw last night with someone who's only started watching in the last few years?

You know the only people they've ever seen get reactions like Roman got last night? Stephanie, Triple H, or Nakamura. They don't know Raws that start with crowds going fucking nuts for 15 minutes. They do now.

You guys are missing the hottest shit happening right in your face because you've gotten so cynical.

They showed a solid 5 minute retirement video for undertaker in the crowd beforehand, with a few thank you taker chants. It was almost obligated to lay into reigns. We knew it and the WWE knows it. Whatever we do, they can play it off as long as they get the money.

Doing nothing wasn't on the card. In fact, I think a lot of us would of loved it if he fought back against the crowd. But even if they expected this, the crowd still felt like their message was sent.

 

[norm9]

Also, no joke, I thought the fact that he came out, only said five words, and got that kind of reaction, was amazing. If I were him I'd be loving every second of it.

Yes it's nuclear heat, but Reigns seems like he wants to be loved more than hated. He plays hero, not villain.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

They showed a solid 5 minute retirement video for undertaker in the crowd beforehand, with a few thank you taker chants. It was almost obligated to lay into reigns. We knew it and the WWE knows it. Whatever we do, they can play it off as long as they get the money.

Doing nothing wasn't on the card. In fact, I think a lot of us would of loved it if he fought back against the crowd. But even if they expected this, the crowd still felt like their message was sent.

It's weird that you're talking like you were above the work here, when it's pretty obvious this was like a conductor and his orchestra.

You got played like a fiddle and you're trying to rationalize it. When old ass fans say "Vince is a genius," this is it. He's whole stairways ahead of you. (We have to ignore 2007-2014 like 1991-1996.)

 

[thehypocrite]

Why do you all keep blaming Roman for falling ratings? There is so much more to it than just not watching because of one guy. And if the ratings skew older, than that means those long time fan haven't left. It's the younger and new fans that either don't stay with it or never find it interesting to watch. Or it the old hardcore fans driving them away.

I got back into wrestling because of my niece. She made it fun to watch. Seeing how into it she got was great. So now the whole family gets into it every 2 to 3 hours each week. We watch, have fun, and move on after its over. We've been to a PPV and Smackdown and even a live NXT show. Had a blast. And what strikes me every time, is the people that are having the most fun are the ones that let the whole spectacle that is WWE just make them laugh, boo, and cheer. And after the show is over, walk out of the arena smiling and talking about just having a good time.

Then there are the hardcore fans that just complain the whole show or tell you how they are going to boo this or that guy because he doesn't deserve it. All these men and women in that ring put in some hard ass work to be there to entertain the fans. This bullshit of not deserving it is just ridiculous.

When you're at a live taping surrounded by families, couples, and people that are all just enjoying the night, you have such a great time.

I don't know what the WWE needs to do to appeal to a broader base, but just placating to hardcore fans will just make those fan find something else to complain about. They are not going anywhere. But the stuff some of you in these wrestling threads complain about non stop, is the very same things that brought a whole family into watching and spending money on WWE.

How dare you!!! My hobby is serious business!!!

 

[Raging Spaniard]

I really wish we could talk about more than Roman here, that unpopular guy nobody likes yet nobody seems to be able to stop talking about him 24/7 yet hes bad for the business for some reason because TV ratings are apparently the only measuring stick (lol)

Yes it's nuclear heat, but Reigns seems like he wants to be loved more than hated. He plays hero, not villain.

This is false, listen to any of his interviews, especially recently.

 

[Host Samurai]

Roman is only selling merch because WWE promotes his merch the most. I'am sure he has more merchandise than anyone on the roster too. If AJ has two shirts and Roman has 14 and is being promoted 10X more than AJ, who do you think will sell more merch?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Roman is only selling merch because WWE promotes his merch the most. I'am sure he has more merchandise than anyone on the roster too. If AJ has two shirts and Roman has 14 and is being promoted 10X more than AJ, who do you think will sell more merch?

Who the fuck goes to wweshop.com without a plan or favorite wrestlers? Who just buys merch based on what looks good in wrestling? You buy your favorite wrestlers.

Where did you come up with this goofy user persona? It's like you're writing satire.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Have you guys talked about Raw last night with someone who's only started watching in the last few years?

You know the only people they've ever seen get reactions like Roman got last night? Stephanie, Triple H, or Nakamura. They don't know Raws that start with crowds going fucking nuts for 15 minutes. They do now.

You guys are missing the hottest shit happening right in your face because you've gotten so cynical.

I stopped watching WWE for about a decade, but for the life of me I can't remember HHH ever getting heat like that, and he was the number 1 heel in the company for like 15 years.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I stopped watching WWE for about a decade, but for the life of me I can't remember HHH ever getting heat like that, and he was the number 1 heel in the company for like 15 years.

Him vs Daniel Bryan at Wrestlemania 30 was definitely his peak, because he became a visual representative of the office vs Bryan's career. Also his part in breaking up the Shield had moments.

 

[xRaizen]

As someone who watched wrestling from 99-2006 and hasn't watched anything WWE related since, what happened in 2007-2014? Is there a site I can read about it?

 

[Host Samurai]

Who the fuck goes to wweshop.com without a plan or favorite wrestlers? Who just buys merch based on what looks good in wrestling? You buy you favorite wrestlers.

Where did you come up with this goofy user persona? It's like you're writing satire.

Parents. Also Information Architecture and Taxonomy come into play. If Romans shirt is the first thing I see, ill click it. Its all about how the company wants to push said merch.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Parents. Also Information Architecture and Taxonomy come into play. If Romans shirt is the first thing I see, ill click it. Its all about how the company wants to push said merch.

Do you have a source, or is this coming out of your ass?

Why do you have to rationalize this so much? Can it just be that Roman is the top star right now, and you have to deal with it?

 

[Toki767]

Do you have a source? Or is this coming out of your ass?

People were reporting that even on Smackdown house shows, there are more Roman Reigns merchandise for sale than actual Smackdown wrestlers' merchandise.

It's kind of a well known fact that merchandise sales are heavily skewed to favor whoever WWE wants them to favor.

 

[Host Samurai]

Do you have a source, or is this coming out of your ass?

Why do you have to rationalize this so much? Can it just be that Roman is the top star right now, and you have to deal with it?

I am a UX Designer and I have experience with designing eCommerce sites that have to meet the business goals as well as the users goals. If WWE's goal is to push more Roman merch, than that will be the first item that will catch the users attention. Advertising comes into play as well.

Also if you check http://shop.wwe.com/wwe-superstars/ you will see Cena & Roman are the first two hits. AJ is way down the ladder.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

People were reporting that even on Smackdown house shows, there are more Roman Reigns merchandise for sale than actual Smackdown wrestlers' merchandise.

It's kind of a well known fact that merchandise sales are heavily skewed to favor whoever WWE wants them to favor.

In Toronto there are more Leafs jerseys than any other NHL team combined in stores.

In New York there are more Yankees caps than any other MLB team combined in stores.

In Pittsburgh there are more Steelers jerseys than any other NFL team combined in stores.

Must be a conspiracy!

 

[DeathyBoy]

Roman is only selling merch because WWE promotes his merch the most. I'am sure he has more merchandise than anyone on the roster too. If AJ has two shirts and Roman has 14 and is being promoted 10X more than AJ, who do you think will sell more merch?

Or perhaps it's because of shit like this.

Roman Reign’s VIP autograph signing event at WrestleMania Axxess in Orlando reportedly had fans lining up an hour and a half early. Recent RAW signee Samoa Joe didn’t attract as many fans at Axxess, and Reigns’ lines were so long that they used Samoa Joe’s autograph area for the overflow. Joe’s signing ended a half-hour early. Nikki Bella’s line also reportedly had fans waiting over an hour in advance.

 

[Ithil]

In Toronto there are more Leafs jerseys than any other NHL team combined in stores.

In New York there are more Yankees caps than any other MLB team combined in stores.

In Pittsburgh there are more Steelers jerseys than any other NFL team combined in stores.

Must be a conspiracy!

This is not news, dude. WWE has fucked with merchandise for years and years to make it say whatever they want it to say.
Ask Punk, ask Christian.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Or perhaps it's because of shit like this.

No, Conspiracy!

 

[Sephzilla]

This is not news, dude. WWE has fucked with merchandise for years and years to make it say whatever they want it to say.
Ask Punk, ask Christian.

Ask Randy Orton.

WWE fucking with available merchandise has been verified by numerous wrestlers over the years.

 

[Piston Hyundai]

No, Conspiracy!

boy, are you insufferable

 

[StrikeNinja24]

It's weird that you're talking like you were above the work here, when it's pretty obvious this was like a conductor and his orchestra.

You got played like a fiddle and you're trying to rationalize it. When old ass fans say "Vince is a genius," this is it. He's whole stairways ahead of you. (We have to ignore 2007-2014 like 1991-1996.)

Both sides got what they wanted out of this. The fans wanted to vent. This wasn't something we all didn't realise in the stands. We know that he wanted us to boo hard. And he was going to get it.

I can tell you one thing, the wrestlers themselves feel the heat one way or another. There is no way Roman is currently happy with his status. Freaking Shameus and Cesaro were over yesterday and they were loving it. Roman will never have that again at this rate, though he did have it a while ago. I was at a RAW in Philly where he won the title. We all cheered him then. He actually thanked us all for our support and how the response helped motivate him into changing his character. And we cheered him. Cause it was booked well.

Vince isn't some master negotiator. Anyone with a basic understanding of human interest and reactions knows how this was going to play out. The thing is, Vince is the only name in the game. You can't be a master poker player if you only play at empty tables.

 

[Toki767]

Or perhaps it's because of shit like this.

Well gee. An autograph signing for a guy who is main eventing his third WrestleMania or a guy who was on TV for 2 months and doesn't even have a match at WrestleMania.

I wonder what casual fans are going to be lining up for.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

boy, are you insufferable

I can't for the 15000 post megathread discussing how insufferable I am.

 

[Chopper]

The most telling chant last night was "Go away!". The next best thing to turning your back, in my opinion.

Also, chanting "Roman sucks!" at the first opportunity at Vince McMahon.

Good stuff.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Is it Romans fault that the crowd was dead for the Randy, Bray match? Or that nobody gives a shit about the cruiserweights? Or that the American Alpha are a total bust right now?

RAW has a ton of problems, but the way theyve handled Roman in the last year or so has been great. He gets heat, which gets attention, which gets people talking and interacting with the product. You guys are acting like its the fucking Shining Stars out there. I personally dont like how commentary uses the character, but its not really a reason for the industry going to hell or anything.

 

[Ithil]

Is it Romans fault that the crowd was dead for the Randy, Bray match? Or that nobody gives a shit about the cruiserweights? Or that the American Alpha are a total bust right now?

RAW has a ton of problems, but the way theyve handled Roman in the last year or so has been great. He gets heat, which gets attention, which gets people talking and interacting with the product. You guys are acting like its the fucking Shining Stars out there. I personally dont like how commentary uses the character, but its not really a reason for the industry going to hell or anything.

This is objectively untrue.

 

[Master Yoshi]

Just imagine Roman with a late 90s wrasslin' crowd.


EDIT:

WrestleMania 33 was the 1st time I watched wrestling, and it blew my mind


lol

Brock wins. He looks like something that climbed out of the Earth's molten core and yelled "I'M HERE, MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!" instead of being born.

LOL, glad I read this.

 

[Sephzilla]

Is it Romans fault that the crowd was dead for the Randy, Bray match? Or that nobody gives a shit about the cruiserweights? Or that the American Alpha are a total bust right now?

RAW has a ton of problems, but the way theyve handled Roman in the last year or so has been great. He gets heat, which gets attention, which gets people talking and interacting with the product. You guys are acting like its the fucking Shining Stars out there. I personally dont like how commentary uses the character, but its not really a reason for the industry going to hell or anything.

Eh, no? His entire storyline since losing the WWE title was basically "I keep getting title shots for no reason". Like, there was no real solid reason why he kept floating near the top of the card other than he's Roman Reigns.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Eh, no? His entire storyline for the last year was basically "I keep getting title shots for no reason"

Same with most everyone in the roster? I agree its a problem, but its a WWE problem, not a Roman problem.

 

[Host Samurai]

Eh, no? His entire storyline since losing the WWE title was basically "I keep getting title shots for no reason". Like, there was no real solid reason why he kept floating near the top of the card other than he's Roman Reigns.

Yup. He's got the most manufactured push I've ever seen. Its so blatant that nobody is buying it.

 

[Sephzilla]

Same with most everyone in the roster? I agree its a problem, but its a WWE problem, not a Roman problem.

That's why Roman gets booed and hated so much though. He's kind of the vessel for everything that's wrong with WWE. Roman himself is basically never the actual problem and I think most people would agree that he's someone they'd actually grow to like if he was allowed to develop organically instead of being force fed down people's throats. He was actually pretty liked when he was part of The Shield, but after they broke up instead of letting Roman do some development and roam the midcard he got skyrocketed right into the world title hunt.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Yup. He's got the most manufactured push I've ever seen. Its so blatant that nobody is buying it.

You should read about Lex Luger!

That's why Roman gets booed and hated so much though. He's kind of the vessel for everything that's wrong with WWE. Roman himself is basically never the actual problem and I think most people would agree that he's someone they'd actually grow to like if he was allowed to develop organically instead of being force fed down people's throats.

But its much better in the sense that his promos are 100x better, his wrestling is pretty good (honestly, it is) and the matchups have been more interesting. Him vs Brock right now is something I want to see, then him vs Balor for a title is as well. I dont think much of anything in WWE in a very long time is developed organically at the main event level, so its weird to harp on the Roman push. For my interests this is much better than the mid 00's when I had zeeero interest in the business

 

[Sephzilla]

You should read about Lex Luger!

I actually think Roman has surpassed "Lex Express" era Luger in terms of manufactured pushes. Comparatively, Vince gave up on Lex really quick compared to Roman.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Roman Reigns hasn't been champion in a year. He went on last because the Undertaker retired. He's not the problem or the top guy, but he's the hottest act in wrestling.

Only Punk returning could get a crowd to react like it's 1999 again, which was how it felt last night when Roman was in the ring.

It was the night after WM, which is famous for being the craziest crowd all year and it was the night after he retired the most well liked wrestler in WWE history. It wasn't exactly a normal scenario.

Heels in 1999 would get those kind of reactions in the middle of nowhere Ohio just for showing up.

 

[Ithil]

You should read about Lex Luger!

Lex was a damn sight more over than Roman was, and his push still ended. Reigns' has been going nonstop for three years now in spite of endless failure.

 

[Sephzilla]

But its much better in the sense that his promos are 100x better, his wrestling is pretty good (honestly, it is) and the matchups have been more interesting. Him vs Brock right now is something I want to see, then him vs Balor for a title is as well. I dont think much of anything in WWE in a very long time is developed organically at the main event level, so its weird to harp on the Roman push. For my interests this is much better than the mid 00's when I had zeeero interest in the business

I agree with you that Roman is pretty solid as a talent. It's mostly the blatant Vince agenda behind him that is what sours people on him (that and Roman has the general perception of being a teachers pet, and nobody likes one of them).

Regarding stuff developing organically at the main event level; CM Punk and Daniel Bryan developed pretty organically. Bray Wyatt did as well before he became Cena and Undertaker food.

 

[Host Samurai]

Lugars push was dunzo at the 94' Rumble once he heard how much over Bret was. Also TBF, Lugar was pretty over too. I never remembered hearing a chorus's of boos for him. It was a totally different time too.

 

[ReiGun]

Wrestling fans always need a boogeyman that Vince likes to concentrate their frustrations on. There's nothing wrong with Roman Reigns. Just like there wasn't anything wrong with John Cena before him. You people will always hate "the guy".

People didn't hate Stone Cold. People didn't hate The Rock.

Hell, for a time, people didn't even hate John Cena. Cena became "the guy" because fans loved him. Listen to the pop he got when he was drafted to Raw in 2005 as WWE Champ. People fucking loved John Cena. They turned on him because, over time, the booking around him became stagnant and boring. He, for a time, stopped being entertaining.

Make whatever defenses for Roman you like, but don't try to make it out like fans are rejecting him just because he's Vince's pet project. Especially not when people have stated, time and again, their reasons for disliking him. So much digital ink has been spilled on the subject that you can't possibly not understand why people are as anti-Reigns as they are.

 

[xintin]

Lex was a damn sight more over than Roman was, and his push still ended. Reigns' has been going nonstop for three years now in spite of endless failure.

How long before we get something as ridiculous as the Lex Express for Roman. Imagine the Reigns Train pulling into stations across the country.

Wait. I want this to happen now.

 

[Sephzilla]

I remember Luger's face return when he came in on a helicopter to "bodyslam" Yokozuna. Nobody gave a shit at first and half the crowd was expecting Hogan.

Also, I don't think Cena even at the height of Super Cena got so consistently shit on by fans as Roman does.

 

[jmdajr]

I remember Luger's face return when he came in on a helicopter to "bodyslam" Yokozuna. Nobody gave a shit and half the crowd was expecting Hogan.

Also, I don't think Cena even at the height of Super Cena got so consistently shit on by fans as Roman does.

Well half the fans LOVED him. Roman might have some kid/woman fans, but like Cena, absolutely not.

Eliminating Daniel Bryan at the RR that year did MASSIVE DAMAGE to his career. He has yet to fully recover. I don't know what happens to the timeline if that changes.

 

[shintoki]

People didn't hate Stone Cold. People didn't hate The Rock.

Stone Cold, even when he was supposed to be the villain for fan favorites like Jake the Snake and Bret Hart. Still seemed to be winning over the crowd slowly.

The Rock, even in his NoD didn't seem to draw as much vitriol as Faqrua and others from it.

 

[Sephzilla]

Well half the fans LOVED him. Roman might have some kid/woman fans, but like Cena, absolutely not.

Eliminating Daniel Bryan at the RR that year did MASSIVE DAMAGE to his career. He has yet to fully recover. I don't know what happens to the timeline if that changes.

Yeah, I honestly think they pushed Roman Reigns a year too early.

 

[J-Rzez]

The problem is multifaceted for reigns, plain and simple.

That push and booking. Biggest offender perhaps. Vets see right through this and react accordingly. Their vitrol trickles down and overwhelms others. Now we're getting to a peak. If Vince's plans shifted to making him the biggest heel, most hated wrestler of all time, his plan is foolproof.

Then you have his skills. The superman punch is stupid as hell. One of the worst finishers of all time. The spear is tired as hell outside of maybe seeing like goldberg do it. Considering everyone does the superkick now and people groan is one thing. Seeing those stupid repeated superman punches and spears is beyond that.

Hell, AJ shits on reigns with flying punches and forearms. AJ looks like a superhero from a comic book, an anime character, a matrix like action hero. His body control and posture is simply AMAZING.

His look is hated. From keeping the vest to the shield theme. He's against what the fans are liking, which has started to turn to "in shape" but not "vince's perfrection."

Finally, reigns mic skills and personality. Final nail in the coffin for that guy.

It's inevitable, we may see the crowd unify and literally turn their back on him throughout a match. Can you imagine seeing that happen? That would be epic. Blame the booking, blame his promos, blame his given to him skill set. Doesn't matter as the end result is he is BORING and that's the biggest issue.

"Fuck you Roman" on live TV? That can not be good for advertisers, TV execs, etc. How often can they keep risking that?

Anways... Shinsuke tonight? Hopefully, and hopefully it's in grand fashion.

 

[abundant]

Anways... Shinsuke tonight? Hopefully, and hopefully it's in grand fashion.

I'll be marking out like crazy if Shinsuke shows up tonight (or goes to Smackdown), but I still have my doubts after Joe popped up on Raw, despite Smackdown needing him more.

 

[jmdajr]

The problem is multifaceted for reigns, plain and simple.

That push and booking. Biggest offender perhaps. Vets see right through this and react accordingly. Their vitrol trickles down and overwhelms others. Now we're getting to a peak. If Vince's plans shifted to making him the biggest heel, most hated wrestler of all time, his plan is foolproof.

Then you have his skills. The superman punch is stupid as hell. One of the worst finishers of all time. The spear is tired as hell outside of maybe seeing like goldberg do it. Considering everyone does the superkick now and people groan is one thing. Seeing those stupid repeated superman punches and spears is beyond that.

Hell, AJ shits on reigns with flying punches and forearms. AJ looks like a superhero from a comic book, an anime character, a matrix like action hero. His body control and posture is simply AMAZING.

His look is hated. From keeping the vest to the shield theme. He's against what the fans are liking, which has started to turn to "in shape" but not "vince's perfrection."

Finally, reigns mic skills and personality. Final nail in the coffin for that guy.

It's inevitable, we may see the crowd unify and literally turn their back on him throughout a match. Can you imagine seeing that happen? That would be epic. Blame the booking, blame his promos, blame his given to him skill set. Doesn't matter as the end result is he is BORING and that's the biggest issue.

"Fuck you Roman" on live TV? That can not be good for advertisers, TV execs, etc. How often can they keep risking that?

Anways... Shinsuke tonight? Hopefully, and hopefully it's in grand fashion.

He's beautiful though!

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

People didn't hate Stone Cold. People didn't hate The Rock.

Hell, for a time, people didn't even hate John Cena. Cena became "the guy" because fans loved him. Listen to the pop he got when he was drafted to Raw in 2005 as WWE Champ. People fucking loved John Cena. They turned on him because, over time, the booking around him became stagnant and boring. He, for a time, stopped being entertaining.

What?

You clearly weren't around for the "Die Rocky Die" chants in every arena, or Rocky's dad coming in to save him. The whole Rock gimmick was him taking the absolute venom from the audience and turning it against them. Nobody hated the Rock? Wow.

Cena was the same. He was marginally liked until WWE started to push him. I mentioned earlier the ECW One Night Stand, which took the heat Cena was already getting and turning it to 11. This was long before he ever sniffed the championship. Cena went Nuclear because he ascended to the top of the card, then wouldn't lose. He had heat the entire way. "YOU CAN'T WRESTLE!"

All 3 of those guys have one thing in common - they were pushed by the company early. Keep thinking this heat for Roman is bad for his character - the last two megastars went through the exact same process.