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[Deleted member 47027]

I've just been reading the book Wrestling at the Chase, about the legendary St Louis wrestling promoter Sam Muchnick and the territorial days of pro wrestling, written by the guy who helped run the promotion (and the longtime TV announcer), Larry Matysik. He writes this about booking:



It's not like it's rocket science, WWE. Still, Vince gonna Vince till he drops dead.

Yeeeeah but you gotta factor in people getting butthurt and quitting, injuries, concussions (which thankfully the WWE is busting their ass towards treating right, but it IS a booking hurdle...look at Ziggler) and prima donnas and part-timers. It sounds easy in theory but the real deal is fucking bananas.

 

[Ithil]

Add in the fact that they worked so few dates in comparison back then. WWE puts on shows of some kind 300 nights a year.

 

[strobogo]

That's how WWE USED to book things. In the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Possibly into the 90s, but a big decline in that kind of booking even before the Attitude Era. Some guys still got 9-12 months laid out for them at the start, but most didn't. WM4 main event ended, and WM5 was already booked to be Hogan vs Savage with a year to get there. That was the norm for Vince once upon a time. Things have changed. I don't think you can do 9 months at a time anymore just due to so many hours of TV to burn through. But 3-4 months in advance definitely is and should be doable.

 

[Shiv47]

Yeeeeah but you gotta factor in people getting butthurt and quitting, injuries, concussions (which thankfully the WWE is busting their ass towards treating right, but it IS a booking hurdle...look at Ziggler) and prima donnas and part-timers. It sounds easy in theory but the real deal is fucking bananas.

You would say that, Vince, wouldn't you? Seriously though, in the book he says that he kept pencil erasers handy to change things as stuff like you mentioned happened, which it did.

 

[GaimeGuy]

They are just too short sited to know how to create new stars. They are afraid to push anyone other than Cena because in the short-term it might hurt ratings or buy rates, even if doing so might be better for the health of the company. No one is given time to grow or make an impact, so they need to bring back old proven draws to spike numbers, which only moves their younger talent further down the ladder.

And yet, the ratings are now usually in the 2.5-3.3 range, whereas they used to be in the 3.5-4.5 range. Ratings have only hit a 4.0 once since 2009. The last time they hit 4.5 was in January 2006.

Let's see who was champion then...

oh look...


January 23, 2006 - 4.5
January 29, 2006 - John Cena wins his 2nd WWE title at the royal rumble
January 30, 2006 - 4.5
February 6, 2006 - 4.4
February 13, 2006 - 3.3
February 20, 2006 - 4.0
February 27, 2006 - 4.0
March 6, 2006 - 4.1


Looks like Cena's seen quite the drop in ratings! GET RID OF HIM! </Vince logic>

 

[strobogo]

Ratings are different than they were in the 90s. You can't compare a 7.4 in 1999 to a 3.4 in 2014.

 

[GravyButt]

Anyone else just getting a feeling now that this is an epic work?! I mean, WWE removed a lot of CM Punk stuff, but not all of it. Mostly merchandise remains, which is odd because he gets a portion of it. Plus, noones said anything about it. Weve all seen the setup to stuff like this before, just executed differently. Now that social media plays a huge role, this is being done perfectly (if true.)

But if its not a work, then good on CM. I dont agree with the fact that people in all industries can cry and whine to get promotions ect, but he openly seems to be admitting hes burnt out, and cant really achieve much else. His contract is up in a few months too, and was already contemplating retirement. If this is all true, I dont think this would be the way I wanted to go out, but hey, maybe he changes the industry.

 

[Shiv47]

If it's a work, then it needs to be drawn out to Mania, otherwise it's just another waste of time.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I've just been reading the book Wrestling at the Chase, about the legendary St Louis wrestling promoter Sam Muchnick and the territorial days of pro wrestling, written by the guy who helped run the promotion (and the longtime TV announcer), Larry Matysik. He writes this about booking:



It's not like it's rocket science, WWE. Still, Vince gonna Vince till he drops dead.

Haven't read that one.

Does it go into how salty Muchnick was that Thesz wouldn't drop the title to people he didn't like or people whose wrestling talents he didn't respect? Or any of the double-double-double dealing when working with the new york office of mcmahon and mondt?

 

[Shiv47]

Haven't read that one.

Does it go into how salty Muchnick was that Thesz wouldn't drop the title to people he didn't like or people whose wrestling talents he didn't respect? Or any of the double-double-double dealing when working with the new york office of mcmahon and mondt?

Not much on Thesz, beyond a couple anecdotes and quotes, but there's a decent amount about the backroom NWA/territorial stuff and dealing with Vince McMahon Sr and Jr. It alternates between shorter chapters about individual wrestlers and longer chapters about the running of the business. There's a heartfelt finale about Bruiser Brody, who Matysik was good friends with.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Not much on Thesz, beyond a couple anecdotes and quotes, but there's a decent amount about the backroom NWA/territorial stuff and dealing with Vince McMahon Sr and Jr. It alternates between shorter chapters about individual wrestlers and longer chapters about the running of the business. There's a heartfelt finale about Bruiser Brody, who Matysik was good friends with.

Cool, will have to give it a read. I always find the territoral dealings really interesting - such an incredible amount of chicanery going on.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I've just been reading the book Wrestling at the Chase, about the legendary St Louis wrestling promoter Sam Muchnick and the territorial days of pro wrestling, written by the guy who helped run the promotion (and the longtime TV announcer), Larry Matysik. He writes this about booking:



It's not like it's rocket science, WWE. Still, Vince gonna Vince till he drops dead.

That excerpt is pretty much how I viewed the title as a kid, even though Hogan held it for almost my entire child hood. The fact that it didn't get passed around willy nilly made it seem more special. I remember how revered it was that Hulk was a 3 time champ...now you have guys like Triple H or Edge who are like 13 time champs. It also blew my mind as a kid when Diesel beat Bob Backlund for the title at a house show. What was the reason for that?

 

[Dick Justice]

That excerpt is pretty much how I viewed the title as a kid, even though Hogan held it for almost my entire child hood. The fact that it didn't get passed around willy nilly made it seem more special. I remember how revered it was that Hulk was a 3 time champ...now you have guys like Triple H or Edge who are like 13 time champs. It also blew my mind as a kid when Diesel beat Bob Backlund for the title at a house show. What was the reason for that?

I remember when Ric Flair being a 14-time champ was something unique. The world title has been incredibly devalued in recent years.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

I remember when Ric Flair being a 14-time champ was something unique. The world title has been incredibly devalued in recent years.

It's sort of feels secondary now. Cena is the biggest star, and treated as such in storylines, even if he doesn't have it.

 

[Chamber]

I remember when Ric Flair being a 14-time champ was something unique. The world title has been incredibly devalued in recent years.

That happens when one company is in control of two World titles. Up until that happened, 4-6 reigns was about the most one guy would get and that guy would have been the man.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

It also blew my mind as a kid when Diesel beat Bob Backlund for the title at a house show. What was the reason for that?

I think they just wanted to move the title from bret to nash as quickly as possible without nash actually beating bret, and they didn't have anywhere near the number of ppv's they do today so they didn't have a window to do it in.

No idea why they didn't wait till raw at least, perhaps it was a combination of raw not being seen as important back then since it was so new and wanting to give fans the idea that "anything can happen", getting them to buy tickets for house shows.

 

[krae_man]

I think they just wanted to move the title from bret to nash as quickly as possible without nash actually beating bret, and they didn't have anywhere near the number of ppv's they do today so they didn't have a window to do it in.

No idea why they didn't wait till raw at least, perhaps it was a combination of raw not being seen as important back then since it was so new and wanting to give fans the idea that "anything can happen", getting them to buy tickets for house shows.

Also the House Show was at MSG.

 

[jstripes]

Add in the fact that they worked so few dates in comparison back then. WWE puts on shows of some kind 300 nights a year.

You kinda have to when you've basically swallowed up all the competition.

 

[FyreWulff]

They should have Backlund win the Rumble next year.

 

[thefro]

It also blew my mind as a kid when Diesel beat Bob Backlund for the title at a house show. What was the reason for that?

What was pretty awesome is they actually aired TWO different versions of WWF Superstars that weekend (depending on when your local station's slot for Superstars was) since the title change was Saturday night at MSG

- The one that aired on Saturday with a Backlund interview gloating about being the champ after the recap of the Bret/Backlund PPV match from the PPV the weekend before
- The one that aired on Sunday showing Diesel squashing Backlund and I think a really quick Diesel interview in place of the Backlund promo

I think the commentary overdub was different for the matches as well, with them talking about Diesel being the champ on the Sunday one. I got TV stations from two different TV markets where I lived as a kid so I remember that blowing my mind.

 

[bill0527]

I think these creative meetings all really boil down to Vince and HHH throwing darts at a dartboard and seeing what sticks. Kind of like my local weathermen when they do a forecast.

 

[Host Samurai]

I think Bret beat Flair at a house show too.

I remember when I was a kid I went to see Warrior vs Flair for the title at a house show, but that was the co main and I noticed that Flair didn't have the belt. Bret Hart faced Nailz in the main and I was actually shocked to see Bret with the title. In 1992 Bret was a mid carder and didn't seem he was ever in reach to the title, let alone a contender.

 

[Carnby]

I think Bret beat Flair at a house show too.

I remember when I was a kid I went to see Warrior vs Flair for the title at a house show, but that was the co main and I noticed that Flair didn't have the belt. Bret Hart faced Nailz in the main and I was actually shocked to see Bret with the title. In 1992 Bret was a mid carder and didn't seem he was ever in reach to the title, let alone a contender.

Who are you to doubt Bret Hart?

 

[Host Samurai]

Who are you to doubt Bret Hart?

I would never. Hes one of my favs of all time. I was just surprised that I've seen him walk out with the title at a house show. He must have won the title a day or 2 before at another house show.

 

[strobogo]

It wasn't a house show. It was a taping, but for CHV and not TV. It was weird, though. Bret didn't really seem like he fit in that spot at the time.

 

[Penguin]

I think Bret beat Flair at a house show too.

I remember when I was a kid I went to see Warrior vs Flair for the title at a house show, but that was the co main and I noticed that Flair didn't have the belt. Bret Hart faced Nailz in the main and I was actually shocked to see Bret with the title. In 1992 Bret was a mid carder and didn't seem he was ever in reach to the title, let alone a contender.

When was the last time we got an off-tv title change?

Granted, we hardly get on-air title changes anymore either

 

[NoRéN]

WWE should have Batista beat AJ for the Divas championship.

 

[UberTag]

When was the last time we got an off-tv title change?

The tag titles were won by Primo & Epico at a house show in Oakland in January 2012.
They defeated Air Boom when they finally pulled Evan Bourne off the road for his wellness violation.
Kept the belts through WrestleMania until they lost them to Kofi Kingston's next tag team combo with R-Truth in late April.

 

[Carnby]

I would never. Hes one of my favs of all time. I was just surprised that I've seen him walk out with the title at a house show. He must have won the title a day or 2 before at another house show.

I'm just kidding. It was a bad joke. A reference to Bret Hart saying "who are you to doubt El Dandy?"

 

[Perspicacity]

It feels like title changes are coming less frequently, but rather than making the reigns feel more important it's eventually doing the opposite. Like... SHIELD got the tag titles because Hell No was finishing up, then SHIELD lost biggest the Rhodes Brothers became a thing, who are now losing it to the NAO because they ran out of Rhodes Bros storyline.

Same thing seems to happen with the IC belt, like they just get tired of someone holding it eventually and then someone new comes along and gets a little push before being shoved aside. I'm sure Ambrose only still has his belt because they don't have someone ready to take it from it yet and not as a tribute to anything they are trying to do with Ambrose.

 

[strobogo]

When was the last time we got an off-tv title change?

Granted, we hardly get on-air title changes anymore either

I believe Christian beating Booker for the IC Championship at a house show in 2003 for a singles title. I'm pretty sure there was a tag title switch on a house show sometime time in 2012. Primo and Epico maybe. Diesel's win over Backlund was the last time for the major title, though.

 

[Guzim]

It feels like title changes are coming less frequently, but rather than making the reigns feel more important it's eventually doing the opposite. Like... SHIELD got the tag titles because Hell No was finishing up, then SHIELD lost biggest the Rhodes Brothers became a thing, who are now losing it to the NAO because they ran out of Rhodes Bros storyline.

Same thing seems to happen with the IC belt, like they just get tired of someone holding it eventually and then someone new comes along and gets a little push before being shoved aside. I'm sure Ambrose only still has his belt because they don't have someone ready to take it from it yet and not as a tribute to anything they are trying to do with Ambrose.

I don't even remember the last time Ambrose defended the US belt.

 

[Penguin]

I don't even remember the last time Ambrose defended the US belt.

Because no one wants to step up to the plate and challenge him!

He's still waiting on Andre's ghost!

 

[krae_man]

I believe Christian beating Booker for the IC Championship at a house show in 2003 for a singles title. I'm pretty sure there was a tag title switch on a house show sometime time in 2012. Primo and Epico maybe. Diesel's win over Backlund was the last time for the major title, though.

Miz and Morrison won the tag titles at a house show, Edge won the IC title at one as well. and Yeah Primo and Epico was the most recent.

 

[iamtheb]

I went to a house show in Huntington, WV as a child, probably around 97-98. The Godfather wrestled for the IC title against a member of The Brood (I think). I remember The Godfather won and I went crazy. I got home and reported that there was a title change on this wrestling IRC channel I used to frequent. Not many people believed me. The next televised show, he didn't have it anymore. I have no clue what happened to this day other than maybe someone got hurt in the ring?

 

[UberTag]

I went to a house show in Huntington, WV as a child, probably around 97-98. The Godfather wrestled for the IC title against a member of The Brood (I think). I remember The Godfather won and I went crazy. I got home and reported that there was a title change on this wrestling IRC channel I used to frequent. Not many people believed me. The next televised show, he didn't have it anymore. I have no clue what happened to this day other than maybe someone got hurt in the ring?

Didn't they used to move the belts back and forth at house shows but so long as the championship returned back to the title holder before the next TV taping it wasn't formally recognized?

 

[The Albatross]

Didn't they used to move the belts back and forth at house shows but so long as the championship returned back to the title holder before the next TV taping it wasn't formally recognized?

^

This is what I remember. The Steiner Bros. were defeated by Money Inc for the title in a 1992 or 1993 house show I went to as a kid. When I tuned in on SuperStars or whatever the Saturday/Sunday show was, I was shocked to not see a rematch.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Didn't they used to move the belts back and forth at house shows but so long as the championship returned back to the title holder before the next TV taping it wasn't formally recognized?

They just ignored it unless they were asked, then it was determined later to be either a DQ or a Dusty finish.

 

[FallingEdge]

I would never. Hes one of my favs of all time. I was just surprised that I've seen him walk out with the title at a house show. He must have won the title a day or 2 before at another house show.

His comment is a joke in reference to this

 

[Host Samurai]

His comment is a joke in reference to this

lol @ him calling Psycosis Hypnosis

 

[Trojan X]

I don't think Dave Meltzer has even confirmed that these meetings were ever real. It was probably all internet gossip.

Oh well. If what you said is true then this thread has ended for me.

 

[DiscoJon]

After watching RAW tonight, I think it's safe to assume these "meetings" were nothing but a work.

 

[Aiii]

These meetings were aimed for EC and beyond into Mania. So basically what we're looking for here, really, is who wins that EC match and go from there.

The matches for EC itself don't need to change really, or the build leading up to that.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

Yep, the meetings did not happen. It's clear now.

 

[DiscoJon]

These meetings were aimed for EC and beyond into Mania. So basically what we're looking for here, really, is who wins that EC match and go from there.

The matches for EC itself don't need to change really, or the build leading up to that.

Wait wait wait. You're saying these supposed "meetings" were aimed at who wins at the Elimination Chamber PPV but then you say "The matches for EC itself don't need to change really, or the build leading up to that."?

Wait, what?

 

[Aiii]

Wait wait wait. You're saying these supposed "meetings" were aimed at who wins at the Elimination Chamber PPV but then you say "The matches for EC itself don't need to change really, or the build leading up to that."?

Wait, what?

Very simple.

Lets say it's gonna be Bryan vs. Batista at Mania. Do you need to change the participants of the EC match? No you don't. Do you need to change the program between Orton and Bryan now, with Authority shenanigans? No you don't.

Undertaker isn't around yet, so that match isn't building until EC is come and gone.

Cena was injured, so his program with the Wyatt's is on hold.

All that leaves is Triple H, and if last night is any indication, we might just see a Orton vs. Triple H match if Bryan wins the EC match.

 

[polyh3dron]

Since I didn't watch Raw, what ended up happening, did anything show a hint of anyone at that company removing their heads from their asses?

 

[SeroTyler]

Since I didn't watch Raw, what ended up happening, did anything show a hint of anyone at that company removing their heads from their asses?

They pretty much scratched out CM Punk's name in the Kane feud and replaced him with Daniel Bryan.

 

[polyh3dron]

They pretty much scratched out CM Punk's name in the Kane feud and replaced him with Daniel Bryan.

ugh.. that whole Deus Ex Kane thing at Royal Rumble was ridiculous.

 

[Tom_Cody]

Can someone summarize the drama going on in the WWE? From what I have heard it has something to do with CM Punk and problems at the Royal Rumble but, as someone who doesn't follow the WWE regularly, I am not really able to make sense of this.

Thanks.