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[jamesb23]

I just finished typing out a mega long ass interview I did with Chris Satchell (GM of XNA team) while at GDC. A lot of it is fluff to be honest, but I think he hinted at Xbox 2 using the same DVD9.

http://biz.gamedaily.com/features.asp?article_id=9165

BIZ: With next-gen games being even more massive in size, a larger storage medium for game content would seem necessary. Sony has already confirmed Blu-ray for its next-gen PlayStation. What are your thoughts on this, or is it possible to do next-gen games on the current DVD standard?

CS: As you know I can't get into the specifics about hardware, but absolutely you can create next-generation games using the DVD (DVD9). We haven't gone for any particular HD standard because Hollywood doesn't know which HD standard they're going with; that's still up in the air. And what we've decided is we're not going to wait for them to work out what it is. We're just going to start leading with the HD Era of gaming right now, with our next-gen console.

Some of things we've worked on [at MS R&D] are more advanced compression techniques, so we already have excellent compression with Xbox... what we're doing on our next-generation console are compression techniques that are even better. And that's great because you can have a lot of storage and if you look at the specs for some of those storage solutions, the problem is the storage is great but the bandwidth might not be there. And if you've got tons and tons of data and you put it through a little pipe, well you've got an issue there because it takes forever to get that data. If you use compressed solutions, you're actually making more effective use of that pipe, that bandwidth. So what we did is we did a lot of work on advanced compression techniques. However, there's another side. We looked very carefully at how much data current gen games use... when we mapped it out, we realized that we do actually have enough room to do these real next-gen experiences... and even better you've got great bandwidth and can load your games faster.

But there's another reality that comes into this. Some companies talk about huge storage solutions, but the thing that they need to ask their developers and publishers is, "Can you afford to make this much?" What's the point of having all this storage if you can't afford to build it? Next-gen content is really expensive. What's better is focusing on giving people tools to be really creative and then giving them good software solutions so they can make more effective use of hardware like our compression techniques we're using.

 

[chinch]

dvd-9 is inevitable and smart... M$ learns from their mi$takes. why people are surprised at this (or the hard disk removal) is mind booggling.

xbox was overdone, too expensive to produce and lacked built in revenue generators that Nin/Sony banks on (memory cards, etc.)

hd-dvd would make no sense in the scheme of competing w/ PS3, gaining marketshare (drop price & release halo3 on PS3 release date) and overall gaming.

Nevermind xbox2 (or any next gen console) can stream hidef media off the connected windows media XP pc when msn offers that. potential downloadable hidef video makes bluray/hd-dvd almost a moot point for consoles in a couple of years.

 

[acidviper]

The pirates are happy. Dual layer DVD-R's are easy to find.

 

[DarienA]

potential downloadable hidef video makes bluray/hd-dvd almost a moot point for consoles in a couple of years.

People really overestimate the penetration of broadband.

 

[Stinkles]

broadband is a fad. Pretty soon folks will simply switch back to 14.4k modems.

 

[Suikoguy]

People really overestimate the penetration of broadband.

Nevermind having broadband, but how long do you think it will take to download a hidef movie?
Geeze, the Matrix Online beta took forever for its 4 gig download. Imagine a 2 hour hidef movie proably at 8 gigs...

 

[HyperionX]

broadband is a fad. Pretty soon folks will simply switch back to 14.4k modems.

:lol Nice one.

 

[chinch]

who cares how long if you "tivo" it via xbox and the PC downloads it at night, etc.

you guys are stuck in a 90s paradigm.

nevermind city-wide wireless "broadband" internet is coming on strong.

 

[IJoel]

New compression techniques?

Has MS patented any recent techniques? This seems like a bunch of blabbering to try to confuse and convince people that don't understand the technical side of things.

Don't get me wrong, I think DVD-9 will be enough for a while, and actually don't see the need for next-gen games to use it, though I'll gladly accept HD storage for the HI DEFINITION ERA.

I actually think the best thing for MS is to go DVD-9 as Blu-Ray would mean supporting a competitor, and HD-DVD would be a risk, as Xbox 2 could really get hit badly if it leads with HD-DVD and the format fails.

 

[Kon Tiki]

broadband is a fad. Pretty soon folks will simply switch back to 14.4k modems.

If MPAA, RIAA, and IDSA had their ways.

 

[Culex]

Nevermind having broadband, but how long do you think it will take to download a hidef movie?
Geeze, the Matrix Online beta took forever for its 4 gig download. Imagine a 2 hour hidef movie proably at 8 gigs...

I'd imagine a hi-def movie would be closer to 20 gigabytes.

 

[chinch]

I'd imagine a hi-def movie would be closer to 20 gigabytes.

T2 HD extreme edition is not "20 gigabytes". LOL.

WMV HD could be leveraged.

 

[Kon Tiki]

T2 HD extreme edition is not "20 gigabytes". LOL.

WMV HD could be leveraged.

WMV HD? :x

 

[aaaaa0]

WMV9/VC1 can definitely do a decent job of 1280x720p or 1440x1080p at bitrates of around 9-12 mbit/s including a 5.1 soundtrack --> a dual layer DVD9 can hold about 2 hrs.

Fitting HD movies onto DVD9 isn't impossible.

 

[Rhindle]

I'm a bit surprised Microsoft hasn't pushed WMV HD harder. What little content is available in the format works great -- true HD with no additional hardware expense.

They might be getting ready to push the technology with XB2. I would.

 

[Lord Error]

true HD with no additional hardware expense.

No additional hardware expense is not really true. You do need a decoding circuits which normal DVD players don't have - or a nicely powered PC, which is not what people mostly use to watch the movies. Hi Def video game cutscenes are certainly feasable using the WMV9 on Xenon, but I'm not sure how many movie studios will decide to support WMV9 on standard DVD. It's yet another format, niche at that, and they can't even decide what to do with BR and HDDVD.

T2 HD extreme edition is not "20 gigabytes". LOL.

Nor does T2 have the same quality of encoding BR and HDDVD will have. Still, it's probably 8 or 9 gigabytes, which would still take forver to download. "Tivo-ing" it would help somewhat, but then you have other problems - how much HDD space would you have to waste just for a decent HD movie collection? Who is going to set up such network for downloads?

broadband is a fad. Pretty soon folks will simply switch back to 14.4k modems.

Not sure if that was your intention to begin with, but you definitely can apply the same 'joke' to the amount of disc storage space on DVD9 vs HIDef formats.

 

[HokieJoe]

If MPAA, RIAA, and IDSA had their ways.

Ain't that the effin' truth.

 

[seanoff]

as has been said this HD era thing could bite them on the arse.

Sony come out with a BR drive and go yeah, HD era here u go.

 

[Naked Snake]

The talk about compression technologies really reminded me of Nintendo's early attempts at rationalizing their decision to stick to cartridges for N64.

 

[Yusaku]

The pirates are happy. Dual layer DVD-R's are easy to find.

But hardly affordable.

 

[Panajev2001a]

T2 HD extreme edition is not "20 gigabytes". LOL.

WMV HD could be leveraged.

The advantage of blu laser formats is that they have much more RAW data storage and not just support of HD Video through compression. Still, both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD support MPEG-4 AVC (Blu-Ray supports MPEG-4 AVC High Profile which is more advanced than standard MPEG-4 AVC) and WMV/VC-9/VC-1.

WMV HD gives us only more space for Video and Audio: that is it.

 

[soundwave05]

DVD-9s with WMV HD compression should be more than good enough for XBox 2 games that require HD FMV.

If you want to watch HD movies though, Playstation 3 is definitely the way to go. Full blown Blu-Ray (which also means lossless Dolby Digital to shake the house if you have the speakers).

Sony is currently actually digitizing their entire film library (this would include MGM also I think) so they can release a ton of Blu-Ray titles right from the format's launch next year.

 

[mrklaw]

DVD-9 isn't going to get very far with 512MB of RAM. Thats only 18 levels worth of data.

I know it'll be compressed and I'm over-simplifying it, but thats still not enough.

Same amount of storage as current gen + 8x more RAM = bottleneck.

 

[chinch]

The advantage of blu laser formats is that they have much more RAW data storage and not just support of HD Video through compression. Still, both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD support MPEG-4 AVC (Blu-Ray supports MPEG-4 AVC High Profile which is more advanced than standard MPEG-4 AVC) and WMV/VC-9/VC-1.

WMV HD gives us only more space for Video and Audio: that is it.

who cares for GAMING about bluray (or hd-dvd)?

we have enough space and not enough developer talent to fill it

ps3 as a "hd-dvd" player is a moot point as far as sales drivers in the USA. when you have $79 bluray players in walmart then, and only then *could* bluray sales explode, like DVD sales did 3-4 years ago

 

[acidviper]

But hardly affordable.

I'm sure its gonna be cheaper than the 60 buck game, thus its affordable.

 

[ypo]

"We haven't gone for any particular HD standard....We're just going to start leading with the HD Era of gaming right now""

HD Era with no HD standard? Pffffff............

 

[chinch]

HD VIDEO GAME ERA.

xbox2/ps3 are GAME consoles. xbox2 has clearly defined the GAMING HD resolutions already.

Let the studios and manufactures have their own hardware/software war outside of gaming

 

[Enigma]

HD VIDEO GAME ERA.

xbox2/ps3 are GAME consoles. xbox2 has clearly defined the GAMING HD resolutions already.

Let the studios and manufactures have their own hardware/software war outside of gaming

Fuck that. All new media formats are always insanely expensive at launch. If Sony wants to usher in HD movies with a machine that retails for 299.99, the millions of people who own HDTVs aren't gonna bitch because the normal 4 digit price model has been abandoned.

 

[kaching]

who cares for GAMING about bluray (or hd-dvd)?

So nobody cares about >DVD9 storage capacities for the next 5-6 yrs of gaming? Come on, that's a hell of a blanket statement to make.

we have enough space and not enough developer talent to fill it

It doesn't necessarily require talent to fill a lot of space

 

[acidviper]

MS is pretty much screwed whatever medium they pick. If they pick BluRay they are giving Sony credibility and helping them sell BluRay, if they support HDDVD they might be helping the next BetaMax.

 

[kaching]

MS is pretty much screwed whatever medium they pick. If they pick BluRay they are giving Sony credibility and helping them sell BluRay, if they support HDDVD they might be helping the next BetaMax.

Consoles are unique in that they have always essentially offered a proprietary media format with each major hardware revision. Doesn't really matter if PS/XB games are printed on standard CDs or DVDs, the data is proprietary so you can't just throw it in any CD or DVD player out there and expect to get much out of it. Hence, it doesn't really matte what the outcome is for HDDVD or Blu-ray overall...as long as the Xbox2 is successful as a game device, the media it uses will not become obsolete due to outside pressures, since the game media is essentially proprietary anyway.

 

[chinch]

who cares for GAMING about bluray (or hd-dvd)?

So nobody cares about >DVD9 storage capacities for the next 5-6 yrs of gaming? Come on, that's a hell of a blanket statement to make.[

who said nobody cares.... a few outspoken forum zealots will always care... but these are a small majority of potential customers

 

[chinch]

MS is pretty much screwed whatever medium they pick. If they pick BluRay they are giving Sony credibility and helping them sell BluRay, if they support HDDVD they might be helping the next BetaMax.

Nope. as stated many times, keeping cost down for xenon and/or putting that $$$ into something more useful is smarter than promoting hd-dvd devices that MS gets no royalties from anyways.

 

[gofreak]

who said nobody cares.... a few outspoken forum zealots will always care... but these are a small majority of potential customers

Plus anyone who owns a HDTV...(yeah, I know, still a minority! But that may change over the coming years). If MS go with DVD only they're handing Sony a massive advantage with HDTV owners. For any HDTV owner, it'll be a very big plus point for PS3. Kind of ironic given how hard MS is pushing "the HD era" (and one of the reasons why I think that was so stupid). It also isn't going to help with the potential perception of Xenon as "outdated" tech among casuals by the time PS3 comes round, even if that perception isn't necessarily accurate.

 

[chinch]

Plus anyone who owns a HDTV...(yeah, I know, still a minority! But that may change over the coming years). If MS go with DVD only they're handing Sony a massive advantage with HDTV owners. For any HDTV owner, it'll be a very big plus point for PS3. Kind of ironic given how hard MS is pushing "the HD era" (and one of the reasons why I think that was so stupid). It also isn't going to help with the potential perception of Xenon as "outdated" tech among casuals by the time PS3 comes round, even if that perception isn't necessarily accurate.

:lol:

if you own an HDTV you'll eventually buy a dedicated player if you want to get into HD video ownership/rentals. only a dork would buy a PS3 for bluray if they dont want a PS3 for gaming. and that type of dork has a PS3 on preorder somewhere already

did you guys ever stop to think people buy HDTV for more than "bluray or hd-dvd" or "gaming". People buy them to watch NFL, Sopranos, Network TV shows, etc? Jeez talk about insulated from reality.

 

[kaching]

who said nobody cares.... a few outspoken forum zealots will always care... but these are a small majority of potential customers

Potential customers will care if higher capacity media gets them more extras and/or higher fidelity content on disc than DVD9 games give them, esp. if game prices truly do increase next gen as predicted.

And now, how about developers? Just zealots who would care about higher capacity media over the next 5-6 yrs, again?

 

[Azih]

Anybody who owns a HDTV! isn't going to be using their damn game consoles to view movies.

Really a console is always a trade off between cost and benefit. And MS decided that getting rid of multiple disc games in the last half of next gen's life cycle aint enough of a benefit to justify the cost of BR or HD-DVD, which is a very reasonable decision (and that is the only real benefit, aside from a feature bullet point and fanboy fodder).

 

[chinch]

Potential customers will care if higher capacity media gets them more extras and/or higher fidelity content on disc than DVD9 games give them, esp. if game prices truly do increase next gen as predicted.

And now, how about developers? Just zealots who would care about higher capacity media over the next 5-6 yrs, again?

find a developer not in the pocket of sony that NEEDS "bluray" storage capacity. Jeez how much space did HALO2 take? refresh my memory... LOL.

M$ would be smarter to provide "extras" via live. Are you guys this stuck in last decade business models?

You want Balmer to say.... "GEE LETS CHAMPION HD-DVD EVEN THOUGH WE (MS) HAVE NO BENEFIT FROM IT NOR DO OUR CUSTOMERS PAYING FOR IT"

or you want him to say this...

"even though HD-DVD has zero benefits for Xbox2 GAMERS, we're putting it in XBOX2 anyways so a few geeks can have a spare hd-dvd player."

nevermind every developer and their mom is saying game production is TOO EXPENSIVE to boot. but lets add 20GB of storage so they can shovel-ware it full to capacity.

 

[gofreak]

:lol:

if you own an HDTV you'll eventually buy a dedicated player if you want to get into HD video ownership/rentals.

Of course. I'm saying any HDTV owner who's looking for a games console will view that as a big plus. Especially if they don't have a blu-ray player, as I'm sure most probably won't when PS3 hits. Yeah, eventually they'll get dedicated players, but PS3 could present a high value proposition to them in the meantime, if they're already in the market for a games console.

I'm a HDTV owner myself, and I can't see myself with a bluray player when PS3 is launched. It'll probably be my first.

 

[jarrod]

Nope. as stated many times, keeping cost down for xenon and/or putting that $$$ into something more useful is smarter than promoting hd-dvd devices that MS gets no royalties from anyways.

Actually, wouldn't Microsoft get royalties from BD/HD-DVD machines & releases since their codecs were licensed for both fomats?

 

[ypo]

Someone from Microsoft also said 64K of RAM is more than enough.

 

[border]

if you own an HDTV you'll eventually buy a dedicated player if you want to get into HD video ownership/rentals. only a dork would buy a PS3 for bluray if they dont want a PS3 for gaming. and that type of dork has a PS3 on preorder somewhere already

Damage control at its finest....might be a little more convincing if it weren't such an echo of "Only a dork would buy PS2 for DVDs....people will want a dedicated player..."

You forgot the most important recycled argument though..."Parents will want to watch a BluRay disc but the kids will want to play games. They will have to fight over the TV set. This will not be popular!"

 

[jarrod]

It was strongly speculated last year that MS would be pushing HD-DVD hard... I wonder if the BD forum hadn't relented and finally licensed their codecs if Microsoft would've eaten the expense of shoving an HD-DVD-ROM drive into Xenon? Now that they're "on" both platforms though, there's really no vested interest in seeing one succeed... they can just wait it out and pick the winner for their next console.

 

[chinch]

Damage control at its finest....might be a little more convincing if it weren't such an echo of "Only a dork would buy PS2 for DVDs....people will want a dedicated player..."

You forgot the most important recycled argument though..."Parents will want to watch a BluRay disc but the kids will want to play games. They will have to fight over the TV set. This will not be popular!"

your definition of damage control = anything you disagree with :lol:

 

[Enigma]

Damage control at its finest....might be a little more convincing if it weren't such an echo of "Only a dork would buy PS2 for DVDs....people will want a dedicated player..."

You forgot the most important recycled argument though..."Parents will want to watch a BluRay disc but the kids will want to play games. They will have to fight over the TV set. This will not be popular!"

And also the fact that economies of scale is the only way a Blu-Ray player is gonna be under a grand for any conceivable timeline.

PS2 sold lots of systems in Japan to people because it was cheaper than stand-alone players (And DVDs had been on the market for a while... so prices had definetly been dropping significantly). I guarantee chinch, if Joe Bloe walks into Best Buy and can get a PS3 for 299.99 versus BluRay players that are literally hundreds more, most people are just gonna buy a PS3. The hardcore videophiles with money to burn won't, but that's a very small segment of the HDTV market. I don't know why people are engaging in damage control or aren't happy about this. CD/DVD both took a lot of years to finially come down in price and get mainstream adoption. If Sony feels this is their trojan horse to get Blu-Ray quickly adapted, why the fuck would anyone be upset? Christ, don't play any games for it if you hate Sony so much. But be happy it's the 1st new media that won't take 5 years to reach acceptance because of price.

 

[chinch]

Of course. I'm saying any HDTV owner who's looking for a games console will view that as a big plus. Especially if they don't have a blu-ray player, as I'm sure most probably won't when PS3 hits. Yeah, eventually they'll get dedicated players, but PS3 could present a high value proposition to them in the meantime, if they're already in the market for a games console.

I'm a HDTV owner myself, and I can't see myself with a bluray player when PS3 is launched. It'll probably be my first.

If M$ was targeting "early adopters" only they'd have both a bluray and HD-dvd drive in there... maybe a portable MP3 player too. Priced at $399.

M$ is aiming long-term & MASS-MARKET w/ xbox2 obviously

 

[chinch]

And also the fact that economies of scale is the only way a Blu-Ray player is gonna be under a grand for any conceivable timeline.

PS2 sold lots of systems in Japan to people because it was cheaper than stand-alone players (And DVDs had been on the market for a while... so prices had definetly been dropping significantly). I guarantee chinch, if Joe Bloe walks into Best Buy and can get a PS3 for 299.99 versus BluRay players that are literally hundreds more, most people are just gonna buy a PS3. The hardcore videophiles with money to burn won't, but that's a very small segment of the HDTV market. I don't know why people are engaging in damage control or aren't happy about this. CD/DVD both took a lot of years to finially come down in price and get mainstream adoption. If Sony feels this is their trojan horse to get Blu-Ray quickly adapted, why the fuck would anyone be upset? Christ, don't play any games for it if you hate Sony so much. But be happy it's the 1st new media that won't take 5 years to reach acceptance because of price.

ROTF if you think bluray is launching in the USA at $1k with PS3 selling at $299.

:lol:

who's upset? you're love for sony has clouded your reading skills. you're posting damage control by dismissing any positives for exclusing hd-video playback ON A GAME CONSOLE.

any early "bluray" adopter factoring on $39.99 movies (as opposed to $8-15 dvds they buy now) is not cheaping out and buying a PS3 for their multi-thousand dollar AV room... ROTF. Yes, a few geeks will decide like that, but that wont sell millions and millions of extra units.

Gotta love the tunnel vision though.

 

[gofreak]

M$ is aiming long-term & MASS-MARKET w/ xbox2 obviously

Any Sony isn't?

The massmarket is all about perception - something which Bluray will help Sony a lot with.

 

[border]

your definition of damage control = anything you disagree with

No, in this case damage control means "recycling half-decade old arguments that didn't work to justify Microsoft's corner cutting".

Maybe it wouldn't seem quite so silly if you weren't offering such absurd alternative scenarios that "make up" for lack of HD movies. All of a sudden everybody is going to get wireless broadband so they can spend 5-10 hours downloading movies to the optional hard-drive add on peripheral. Yeah. Sure.

At least the Dreamcast fans had "You can get a DC and DVD player for the price of a PS2". That was at least a little bit reasonable.

 

[chinch]

Any Sony isn't?

The massmarket is all about perception - something which Bluray will help Sony a lot with.

Sony is in Generation 3 w/ a significant lead where it had no competition upon launch and a newcomer a year late into the race. They also have vested interest taking losses w/ bluray as a "trojan horse" (which people think makes business sense - the jury is out on that).

Sony will take large losses on the PS3 sold, nevermind the losses doing their chips and whatnot. MS, by all accounts, is NOT doing that this time around.

If you factor "console business" for Sony alone (exclude their movie studio ownership) they'd probably stick w/ dvd-9 also. This is just common business sense.

Are we gonna crucify Nintendo for not including bluray/hd-dvd too? Jeez they'd be stupid (assuming it ships 2006 and not 2008 - lol).