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[Enigma]

ROTF if you think bluray is launching in the USA at $1k with PS3 selling at $299.

:lol:

who's upset? you're love for sony has clouded your reading skills. you're posting damage control by dismissing any positives for exclusing hd-video playback ON A GAME CONSOLE.

any early "bluray" adopter factoring on $39.99 movies (as opposed to $8-15 dvds they buy now) is not cheaping out and buying a PS3 for their multi-thousand dollar AV room... ROTF. Yes, a few geeks will decide like that, but that wont sell millions and millions of extra units.

Gotta love the tunnel vision though.

I fucking HATE Sony. But I'm also not fucking dense to economics or history. CD and DVDs were at the over 1000 mark for years. And in all likelyhood, so will HD-DVD. It takes years to get economies of scale so prices can drop to to mainstream prices. By including it in PS3, Sony is effectively eliminating that slow, painfull process that all tech has (This economy of scale and the fact they have a huge interest in technology behind it lets them take an acceptable short-term hit that's gonna be recuperated on the backend).

But you, sir (And I use that term lightly, because you sound like your 8), are the reason XBots have such lousy reps. That you can get so pissed off about something that's only to your benefit (Unless you don't watch movies) is astounding.

P.S. I've done wasting my time with you. Ignore list, get.

 

[human5892]

At least the Dreamcast fans had "You can get a DC and DVD player for the price of a PS2". That was at least a little bit reasonable.

Yeah, well, you'll be able to get an Xbox 360 and a Blu Ray player for just

Spoiler

several thousand

pennies more than the price of a PS3.

 

[dem]

No one cares about fucking bluray. Dvd was a big deal on the PS2 because DVD WAS BIG. No one even knows what bluray is right now.. and they wont in a year.

 

[chinch]

No, in this case damage control means "recycling half-decade old arguments that didn't work to justify Microsoft's corner cutting".

blah... it IS NOT corner cutting for GAMING.

 

[krypt0nian]

Nintendo took armfulls of crap fro going with smaller media than was required, and now its Microsoft's turn.

While SONY early adopters will be enjoying HD movies (most likely), Microsoft EA's will not.

Storage space should still be enough to cover their game needs.

Not a big negative, but a negative nonetheless.

 

[chinch]

I fucking HATE Sony. But I'm also not fucking dense to economics or history. CD and DVDs were at the over 1000 mark for years. And in all likelyhood, so will HD-DVD. It takes years to get economies of scale so prices can drop to to mainstream prices. By including it in PS3, Sony is effectively eliminating that slow, painfull process that all tech has (This economy of scale and the fact they have a huge interest in technology behind it lets them take an acceptable short-term hit that's gonna be recuperated on the backend).

But you, sir (And I use that term lightly, because you sound like your 8), are the reason XBots have such lousy reps. That you can get so pissed off about something that's only to your benefit (Unless you don't watch movies) is astounding.

P.S. I've done wasting my time with you. Ignore list, get.

do you even know what date DVD launched AS A UNIFIED FORMAT and what date PS2 launched?

are you aware of "consumer electronics" pricing in the past 2-3 years.

ROTF at ignorance and blind M$ hating

 

[Shompola]

No one cares about fucking bluray. Dvd was a big deal on the PS2 because DVD WAS BIG. No one even knows what bluray is right now.. and they wont in a year.

Exactly..

And don't mind Border, he allways plays "devils advocate" no matter what the topic is. Kinda annoying...

 

[dynamitejim]

If Sony feels this is their trojan horse to get Blu-Ray quickly adapted, why the fuck would anyone be upset?

Well some people think shoving a new format down consumers' throats too soon will only turn them off in the long run.

A lot of people who jumped on the DVD bandwagon with the PS2 just 4 years ago will probably be pissed that they'll need to upgrade their discs so soon. Not to mention that even by the time the PS3 comes most people still won't have the hardware (HDTV, 5.1-7.1 audio systems) to see the difference and just shrug it off as "what's the big deal?". DVD had the advantage of being quite an improvement over VHS even on a 20" TV connected through composite. Not to mention simple things like not having to rewind or the huge focus on "extras".

And I don't see what's stopping devs from doing multi-DVD releases if they need the extra space. It seems like 2 and 3 disc movie SEs are becoming more and more popular. People have gotten used to multi-disc releases.

 

[goomba]

Im more concerned about access speed for DVD-9 format , especially with larger files for next gen games.

 

[gofreak]

Sony is in Generation 3 w/ a significant lead where it had no competition upon launch and a newcomer a year late into the race.

Myself and other satisfied DC owners would disagree on the competition issue.

Sony will take large losses on the PS3 sold, nevermind the losses doing their chips and whatnot. MS, by all accounts, is NOT doing that this time around.

This is nothing new for Sony. It's the exact same gameplan as PS2. Sony are reaping BIG profits off PS2 hardware now, and they'll do the same with PS3 as its lifecycle matures.

Are we gonna crucify Nintendo for not including bluray/hd-dvd too? Jeez they'd be stupid (assuming it ships 2006 and not 2008 - lol).

Nintendo has been thoroughly crucified for their media choices over multiple generations. I think most are resigned to the likelihood that they will always march to their own beat. It's not as expected from MS.

 

[chinch]

Myself and other satisfied DC owners would disagree on the competition issue..

ROTF. bought DC day 1. they unfortunately, didn't have the $$$$, smarts or developer backing to compete even against vaporware. We all knew that. Just cause i enjoyed the console doesn't mean what i posted is incorrect

 

[border]

By Microsoft's standards, Dreamcast was definitely competition for the PS2....

No one even knows what bluray is right now.. and they wont in a year.

Marketing for HD formats hasn't started yet, and neither format is available in stores. Of course people don't know about them yet. In a year, both formats will be getting a push from makers of standalone players, Hollywood movies studios, and PC OEMs. To say that people won't know about them then is a little silly.

This is at least a 5 year war anyhow, and you can't really pretend like the cat is going to stay in the bag for that long. Sooner or later BluRay will become a selling point.

 

[chinch]

By Microsoft's standards, Dreamcast was definitely competition for the PS2....

it was plenty of competition if MS had released it, Nintendo or even Sony released that and Sega sold the PS2. Had jaggy-free display and unmet potential... a dead company backing it

Please list the bluray/hd-dvd "selling points" for GAMING now.

 

[KeithFranklin]

fucking HATE Sony. But I'm also not fucking dense to economics or history. CD and DVDs were at the over 1000 mark for years. And in all likelyhood, so will HD-DVD. It takes years to get economies of scale so prices can drop to to mainstream prices. By including it in PS3, Sony is effectively eliminating that slow, painfull process that all tech has (This economy of scale and the fact they have a huge interest in technology behind it lets them take an acceptable short-term hit that's gonna be recuperated on the backend).

Your saying that Sony is going to combat the price issue of BluRay DVD players by simply selling a BluRay DVD player for $300 rather than $1000. Ok how the #$%@ are they going to pull this off without huge losses. It's not like Sony was forced to charge high $ for DVD players when they came out. They wont be forced to charge high $ for BluRay DVD players either. They charge those high $ because at the beginning those items are very expensive to produce. No one in thier right mind will walk in and spend $1K for a first generation BluRay DVD player from a middle of the road manufacturer when they can get a PS3 with most likly the exact same drive for $300. Sure today there are $50 DVD players and $3000 DVD players. Sony is in the middle range. Aka Joe average consumer. The Audiophile/Videophile doesnt choose Sony for anything other than a TV.

 

[The End]

it was plenty of competition if MS had released it, Nintendo or even Sony released that and Sega sold the PS2. Had jaggy-free display and unmet potential... a dead company backing it

Please list the bluray/hd-dvd "selling points" for GAMING now.

There are plenty of devs that'll have no trouble filling up a 30gb disc.

 

[kaching]

find a developer not in the pocket of sony that NEEDS "bluray" storage capacity.

It's not about whether a dev needs full 25-50 gig BRD capacity but whether they need more than DVD9 and, specifically, more than DVD9 already partially occupied with Microsoft's security measures (which reduces effective capacity to 7 gig, right?)

Jeez how much space did HALO2 take? refresh my memory... LOL.

Unless you're suggesting that the next 5-6 yrs of games on next gen systems are going to do nothing more than rehash the same levels of technology, assets and scope as Halo 2 DID LAST YEAR, I can't imagine what other point you'd be trying to make here. And if that is the point you're trying to make, well, yay you for total lack of ambition.

M$ would be smarter to provide "extras" via live. Are you guys this stuck in last decade business models?

Gigs worth of extras per game? Where is that getting stored for the average xbox2 owner when apparently there isn't a large mass storage solution being offered universally? And how many xbox2 owners are likely to spring for a Live account, when less than 10% of xbox owners have sprung for one in the last 2.5 yrs?

Whether you think the business model is antiquated, it does offer the advantage of giving the user access to the extra content instantly as opposed to requiring them to subscribe to an online service first, then download the content, without having to potentially deal with sluggish download speeds brought on by too many wanting to download the same thing at the same time.

Of course, xbox games can always go multi-disc, but that's still less palatable and even more antiquated.

You want Balmer to say.... "GEE LETS CHAMPION HD-DVD EVEN THOUGH WE (MS) HAVE NO BENEFIT FROM IT NOR DO OUR CUSTOMERS PAYING FOR IT"

or you want him to say this...

"even though HD-DVD has zero benefits for Xbox2 GAMERS, we're putting it in XBOX2 anyways so a few geeks can have a spare hd-dvd player."

Hmm...where's the option for Balmer throwing it in essentially for free, realizing that he has to look at this with a longer, broader view than some of the diehard Xbox fans seem capable of?

News from CeBit seems to be indicating that we'll be seeing HDDVD and BRD drives before end of year for a lot less than a lot of people were initially expecting, including myself. It may turn out to be a real shame that MS missed the boat for being unwilling to absorb just a little extra cost in the very short term.

nevermind every developer and their mom is saying game production is TOO EXPENSIVE to boot. but lets add 20GB of storage so they can shovel-ware it full to capacity.

I missed where there's *always* a direct, linear correlation between the amount a game's data increases and the amount a game's budget increases. Could you link me to the sources that establish this as a rule?

 

[The End]

It's like the spring of 2000 here all over again.

 

[border]

Please list the bluray/hd-dvd "selling points" for GAMING now.

Here we go again, still stuck in the time warp :lol The gaming applications of HD media are really no better than the gaming applications of DVD were five years ago.....yet the DVD media was still very much a factor in this generation.

Ok how the #$%@ are they going to pull this off without huge losses

He already explained this. Look up "economies of scale" at Wikipedia or something.

 

[Borys]

About devs not needing more than 8GB of data:

there was a post on EvilAvatar.com forums a while ago (SORRY DON'T HAVE THE LINK) where Chris Carollo, one of Ion Storm guys (Deus Ex) said they had over 10GB of voice/ music/ sound data ONLY for DX2 and they would LOVE to put it uncompressed (in highest quality) on a HD-DVD disc (that was back when Xenon "had" HD-DVD support). He said it's crucial for MS to go with either of HD standards be it HD-DVD or BR.

If you people serioulsy think DVD9 are the way to go, and you conciously WANT Xenon to get games on DVD9 in 2010 then I salute your (lack of) logic.

Imagine what will Rockstar put on one BR-Disc if GTA:SA LAST YEAR filled both of DVD9 layers. Then imagine cutting, compressing the shit out of it to fit on Xenon disc. It will look and sound like shit comparing to PS3 version.

1:0 for Sony, 1:0 for PS3 devs, 1:0 for PS3 consumers - if this is true.

 

[chinch]

Here we go again, still stuck in the time warp :lol The gaming applications of HD media are really no better than the gaming applications of DVD were five years ago.....yet the DVD media was still very much a factor in this generation.

ok spinmeister.

list those benefits whenever you figure them out.

 

[dem]

You bluray tools have got to be delusional.

NO ONE WANTS BLURAY
NO ONE IS GOING TO WANT BLURAY IN A YEAR
NO ONE IS GOING TO WANT BLURAY IN 3 YEARS
You think stores are actually going to stock bluray movies in any sort of quantity? :lol
Dvd is here for AT LEAST the next 5 years.

Dvd had big features over VHS... Bluray has nothing except picture quality WHICH NO ONE REALLY CARES ABOUT EXCEPT SOME AVS FORUM GEEK.

 

[chinch]

About devs not needing more than 8GB of data:

there was a post on EvilAvatar.com forums a while ago (SORRY DON'T HAVE THE LINK) where Chris Carollo, one of Ion Storm guys (Deus Ex) said they had over 10GB of voice/ music/ sound data ONLY for DX2 and they would LOVE to put it uncompressed (in highest quality) on a HD-DVD disc (that was back when Xenon "had" HD-DVD support). He said it's crucial for MS to go with either of HD standards be it HD-DVD or BR.

If you people serioulsy think DVD9 are the way to go, and you conciously WANT Xenon to get games on DVD9 in 2010 then I salute your (lack of) logic.

Imagine what will Rockstar put on one BR-Disc if GTA:SA LAST YEAR filled both of DVD9 layers. Then imagine cutting, compressing the shit out of it to fit on Xenon disc. It will look and sound like shit comparing to PS3 version.

1:0 for Sony, 1:0 for PS3 devs, 1:0 for PS3 consumers - if this is true.

whoopie.... and the 99million other would-be PS3 owners wouldn't know the difference.

 

[soundwave05]

You bluray tools have got to be delusional.

NO ONE WANTS BLURAY
NO ONE IS GOING TO WANT BLURAY IN A YEAR
NO ONE IS GOING TO WANT BLURAY IN 3 YEARS
You think stores are actually going to stock bluray movies in any sort of quantity? :lol
Dvd is here for AT LEAST the next 5 years.

Dvd had big features over VHS... Bluray has nothing except picture quality WHICH NO ONE REALLY CARES ABOUT EXCEPT SOME AVS FORUM GEEK.

I think a lot of people buying a HDTV set will like to have Blu-Ray and those numbers are going to increase greatly in the next 3-5 years.

I would gladly pay $300 for a PS2-enabled Blu-Ray player, let alone a PS3. Its a ridiculous value.

I agree though DVD itself is not going anywhere, but I think Blu-Ray will also become a popular format for people transitioning to HD, and that could be more people than you think. A lot of people would rather watch their NFL football on Sunday's in high definition. A lot of people drool over those Best Buy TV displays.

As the prices keep falling, people are going to buy.

 

[chinch]

It's not about whether a dev needs full 25-50 gig BRD capacity but whether they need more than DVD9 and, specifically, more than DVD9 already partially occupied with Microsoft's security measures (which reduces effective capacity to 7 gig, right?)

snip...

Hmm...where's the option for Balmer throwing it in essentially for free, realizing that he has to look at this with a longer, broader view than some of the diehard Xbox fans seem capable of?

"free" inclusion of HD-DVD... where do you guys come up with these comedy routines? ROTF.

for the few xbox2 buyers who can't change DVDs after 10 hours of uninterrupted gameplay, i guess they can complain about the lack of hd-dvd.

ROTF

 

[border]

list those benefits whenever you figure them out.

The benefits (increased storage space) have been pretty clear from the start of the thread. Nobody is saying it's hugely beneficial to gaming, so I don't get why you want to keep pressing that issue. DVD was a big determinant in console success this generation, and it was not particularly beneficial "to gaming" either.

 

[chinch]

The benefits (increased storage space) have been pretty clear from the start of the thread. Nobody is saying it's hugely beneficial to gaming, so I don't get why you want to keep pressing that issue. DVD was a big determinant in console success this generation, and it was not particularly beneficial either.

checkmate.

dvd last generation has NOTHING to do with hd-dvd/bluray of next generation.

jeezus... dvd released as a UNIFIED FORMAT march 1997
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html

ps2 was released when???... hello!!!

 

[border]

Stick your head in the sand and shout "Checkmate" until you turn blue in the face, by all means :lol

The parallel is discussed because both DVD and the HD media were/are emergent new media formats that are/were arriving close to the start of a console hardware generation. Telling us all when DVD was released really won't prevent people from becoming interested in the HD formats.

 

[KeithFranklin]

He already explained this. Look up "economies of scale" at Wikipedia or something.

I wish it was so simple. If it was what stopped any of the Consumer Electronics firms from selling DVD player or CD players for only a couple hundred bucks at release. This would have created the same "economies of scale" people are claiming Sony will do for BluRay DVD.

I can see the meeting now.

Pointy haired person 1: "How do we get BluRay DVD player cost down quickly to sell to the mass market?"
Pointy haired person 2: "I got it we put the BluRay DVD drive in the PS3 and let it also be a BluRay DVD players as well and heres the kicker we only charge $300 for it while our competitors (and consumer electronics division sell BluRay DVD players for $1000)"
Pointy haired person 1: "Absolute genious"
Dilbert (under his breath): "Morons"

 

[chinch]

Stick your head in the sand and shout "Checkmate" until you turn blue in the face, by all means :lol
The parallel is discussed because both DVD and the HD media were/are emergent new media formats that are/were arriving close to the start of a console hardware generation. Telling us all when DVD was released really won't prevent people from becoming interested in the HD formats.

LOL

DVD was well established in 2000... about 8-million players sold prior to the PS2 USA launch.

OTOH.... we have bluray/hd-dvd in 2005/2006.

ROTF

 

[The End]

Sony manufactures BRD drives. Sony manufactures the PS3. Sony will sell BRD drives to Sony at Sony's cost. Sony will take a loss on the PS3 for the first year or so. Sony will have no problems including a BRD drive in the PS3.

 

[border]

If it was what stopped any of the Consumer Electronics firms from selling DVD player or CD players for only a couple hundred bucks at release.

Do you really need me to explain the differences between videogame consoles and other media hardware for you?

I will keep it brief and mention that the new media hardware of a single manufacturer will not sell 1-2 million units over a holiday season (or say 10 million units in the first 12 months like PS2). The fast acceptance rates of consoles make economies of scale kick in more quickly. The more obvious answer is of course that media hardware companies must have a big profit margin on their DVD/CD players because they do not make money on the actual media. They don't give a shit about getting a zillion of their players into homes if they only make a few bucks on each unit. The companies that made the first DVD players wanted the format to be successful but they weren't going to cut their own throats to do it.

 

[sonycowboy]

You bluray tools have got to be delusional.

NO ONE WANTS BLURAY
NO ONE IS GOING TO WANT BLURAY IN A YEAR
NO ONE IS GOING TO WANT BLURAY IN 3 YEARS
You think stores are actually going to stock bluray movies in any sort of quantity? :lol
Dvd is here for AT LEAST the next 5 years.

Dvd had big features over VHS... Bluray has nothing except picture quality WHICH NO ONE REALLY CARES ABOUT EXCEPT SOME AVS FORUM GEEK.

I think you're going to be greatly surprised. It took years for DVD to have any impact. That's true of EVERY NEW FORMAT out there. Nobody's saying it won't be true for Blu-Ray.

I think you're arguing the wrong thing. You're right that people are not clamoring for a new format and if it were to be released just as an alternative to DVD, it would take a LONG time to take hold.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY SONY IS INCLUDING IT IN THE PS3.

The potential is there for Blu-Ray to have more players in it's first 2 years (>40M, with over 30-35M being PS3's) than DVD had in it's 4th year. Basically, Blu-Ray players will have a HUGE jump on the next generation and given that Sony & MGM will make large portions of their movie libraries available, along with Disney, and others, there should be a good deal of content out there. It doesn't matter why people will be buying Blu-Ray players in droves (PS3 vs "picture quality"). The factor is that there will be a great number of players out there, a great amount of content, and incredible support from the PC market, and Blu-Ray might just have a HUGE impact on the recordable video market with promises of cheap media & superior quality.

The Blu-Ray players will be out there MUCH FASTER than any other media player before it. The question is, will people decide NOT to use these players for Blu-Ray content, in leiu of DVD? And if you think that the media content producers aren't going to try and capitalize on this market, you're crazy. Both studios and consumer electronics companies are dying for the next format to take hold because they're either not making ANY money at all on DVD (CE companies because the margins are completely gone) or they aren't making as much as they think they should (studios, both because DVD's have become commoditized and are cheap as heck and because of piracy concerns where any Joe Schmoe off the street can copy their movies with no efford).

 

[KeithFranklin]

Do you really need me to explain the differences between videogame consoles and other media hardware for you?

I will keep it brief and mention that the new media hardware of a single manufacturer will not sell 1-2 million units over a holiday season (or say 10 million units in the first 12 months like PS2). The fast acceptance rates of consoles make economies of scale kick in more quickly. The more obvious answer is of course that media hardware companies must have a big profit margin on their DVD/CD players because they do not make money on the actual media. They don't give a shit about getting a zillion of their players into homes if they only make a few bucks on each unit. The companies that made the first DVD players wanted the format to be successful but they weren't going to cut their own throats to do it.

Do you also realize that competitors could sue Sony for dumping if they choose to take huge losses when they themselves dont have that opportunity.

When people say Sony will go ahead and take a losse they arent talking $100+ per PS3 they are thinking $10-$20 bucks.

 

[soundwave05]

Do you also realize that competitors could sue Sony for dumping if they choose to take huge losses when they themselves dont have that opportunity.

When people say Sony will go ahead and take a losse they arent talking $100+ per PS3 they are thinking $10-$20 bucks.

:lol at the thought of Microsoft trying to sue someone else for shady business practises.

 

[kaching]

"free" inclusion of HD-DVD... where do you guys come up with these comedy routines? ROTF.

From the same people who are supposedly going to sell us Teraflop performance consoles for $300 or less. From the same people who have sold hardware at a loss before. All the best comedy is funny cuz its true, after all

for the few xbox2 buyers who can't change DVDs after 10 hours of uninterrupted gameplay, i guess they can complain about the lack of hd-dvd.

ROTF

By that logic, we can always drop back to CD media or carts even...the latter would even eliminate load times so there'd be absolutely no interruption in that 10 hr game session of yours.

 

[KeithFranklin]

:lol at the thought of Microsoft trying to sue someone else for shady business practises.

Im not talking about Microsoft I am talking about other DVD manufacturers that have joing the BluRay bandwagon. Last I checked MS doesnt make DVD players and dont plan on making BluRay DVD players.

 

[border]

Do you also realize that competitors could sue Sony for dumping if they choose to take huge losses when they themselves dont have that opportunity.

:lol :lol

The ill-informed "dumping" argument. Seriously, it really is 2000 all over again :lol If dumping were an issue then I think Microsoft would have been sued out of the console business about 3 1/2 years ago.

 

[The End]

"Dumping" isn't what you think it is. If sony sold the BRD-equipped PS3 for $500 in japan and $300 here, that would be dumping. As long as the price is comparable both here and in their home territory, Sony is in the clear.

 

[Shogmaster]

I sense strong deja vu in this thread. We went through this couple months ago.

WMV HD? :x

Why do you chumps always poo on anything MS and then turn around and go gaga for things that are pretty much the same thing from someone else? WMV is just the MS recoding of MPEG 4. OK? You like MPEG 4, right? DiVX? XViD? H.264? All variations of MPEG 4.

Infact, the most impressive MPEG 4 video I ever seen is the WM9 video of 720p Fifth Element. Only 4.5GB, and shows incredible detail.

 

[chinch]

I think you're going to be greatly surprised. It took years for DVD to have any impact.

stoppped reading there.

good god you pull facts out of thin air.

see the DVD links i posted above and reformulate your spin. ROTF.

 

[KeithFranklin]

If Sony is selling a BluRay DVD player (Called a PS3) for $300 while competitors cant sell anywhere near that price then they can sue. Unfair competition.

 

[KeithFranklin]

:lol :lol

The ill-informed "dumping" argument. Seriously, it really is 2000 all over again :lol If dumping were an issue then I think Microsoft would have been sued out of the console business about 3 1/2 years ago.

How so? How much cheaper was the XBOX compared to the PS2. Sure it was more powerful but not that much.

 

[The End]

If Sony is selling a BluRay DVD player (Called a PS3) for $300 while competitors cant sell anywhere near that price then they can sue. Unfair competition.

Maybe you live Canada or something, but that's not how things work here.

 

[border]

How so? How much cheaper was the XBOX compared to the PS2..

Xbox was sold below production cost in all territories AND sold at much lower prices in non-native territories (satisfying both generalized definitions of "dumping"). Anti-dumping laws are generally protectionist policies, but with all governments sucking corporation cock and the idea of an "American company" going down the shitter I would not imagine there is much interest in having the DOJ pursue Sony.

You are scraping the bottom of the barell here. All home consoles are "dumped" in one sense or the other. Sony is committed to a BRD-enhanced PS3 whether you think it is a liability or not. Is this discussion actually going to go anywhere?

 

[Teddman]

I don't think you can really criticize Microsoft for not including HD-DVD or Blu Ray. Realisitically, if they're launching THIS YEAR it'd be too soon and too much of a gamble, not to mention prohibitively expensive. The technology isn't quite ready for mass market yet, standalone players for each format have barely been introduced at the consumer level.

Yes, Sony is supposedly launching the PS3 just six months or so later in Japan, but they have the advantage of having produced and developed Blu Ray in-house. And who knows when their console will really hit the market.

I don't see it as MS "cutting corners," because they're putting the dev money into other areas of hardware instead, gpu, cpus, etc. It was 2005 or next-gen media, and they chose 2005. The Xbox 360 will still sell for a loss, I'm pretty sure.

MS chose launching a year before Sony without next-gen media rather than launching alongside it with next-gen media. I'm not sure which is the better choice, but getting a year head start on PS3 certainly has its advantages.

 

[KeithFranklin]

Xbox was sold below production cost in all territories AND sold at much lower prices in non-native territories (satisfying both generalized definitions of "dumping"). Anti-dumping laws are generally protectionist policies, but with all governments sucking corporation cock and the idea of an "American company" going down the shitter I would not imagine there is much interest in having the DOJ pursue Sony.

You are scraping the bottom of the barell here. All home consoles are "dumped" in one sense or the other. Sony is committed to a BRD-enhanced PS3 whether you think it is a liability or not. Is this discussion actually going to go anywhere?

What are you talking about the XBOX was cheapest in the states. In Europe especially it was sold for far more than the competion (Thus it didnt do very well after launch). Not to mention it is not an apples to apples comparison. PS2 and XBOX did not use the same media while a Sony PS3 and a Panasonic BluRay DVD player do. If Sony chooses to sell for hundreds less than the Panasonic then Panasonic could sue. Remember anyone can sue anyone about anything.



Another thing all you assume that BluRay is just going to become available and boom become the standard (Which will help drive down cost). The HD-DVD and BluRay DVD competion will slow adoption of either until one is a clear winner (I believe the PS3 is a big + for BluRay), but so will the year head start that the HD-DVD will have. Because of this the economies of scale will not come as fast as you believe.

 

[chinch]

dumping is irrelevant. but sony's non-gaming electronic division is underperforming now so undercutting bluray would just hurt them that much more.

either way it's a non-issue for gaming as border already stated. LOL.

 

[KeithFranklin]

I am really just interested in how Sony is actually going to pull this off. I for one (not predicting that it will happen mind you) would not be surprised at all after the recent shakeup at Sony that the PS3 ends up with a DVD9 drive.

 

[border]

Xbox was pretty clearly being dumped in Japan. Too hard to say for Europe since the sales tax is so heavy and I don't know if that factors into international dumping laws.

"PS2 and XBOX did not use the same media"? Are you sure of what you're talking about here? Both systems use DVD media.

Panasonic cannot "sue" Sony for dumping because Panasonic is a Japanese company. Like I already said, dumping laws exist for protectionist purposes. Even then, they are pretty seldom enforced.

Other manufacturers will differentiate themselves from PS3 the same way they protected themselves from PS2. They will make more full featured players (most likely with recording capabilities). This is all a re-tread of the pre-PS2 nonsense -- none of which came to fruition. Sony never got prosecuted for dumping and PS2 did not take over the DVD player market.

Finally, HD-DVD will not have a one-year head start on BluRay. It's likely to be a matter of months if anything.

 

[Yusaku]

I fucking HATE Sony. But I'm also not fucking dense to economics or history. CD and DVDs were at the over 1000 mark for years. And in all likelyhood, so will HD-DVD. It takes years to get economies of scale so prices can drop to to mainstream prices. By including it in PS3, Sony is effectively eliminating that slow, painfull process that all tech has (This economy of scale and the fact they have a huge interest in technology behind it lets them take an acceptable short-term hit that's gonna be recuperated on the backend).

Uh, in the time it took for most people to even know what CDs were DVDs were already well-adopted and low-priced. DVDs were by far the most rapidly adopted format in history.

I don't see either HD-DVD or BluRay replacing DVD. DVD was so well received because even if you had a shitty low-end TV you could benefit from DVD. VHS tapes started degrading after just a few viewings, but DVDs will always look the same (so long as you don't scratch it up). And of course there's the commentaries/extras that VHS could never have.

The new formats are just an evolutionary upgrade, however. It's appealing only to people with large HDTVs, and always will be. At best the market will segment, DVDs for the masses and HD-DVD/BluRay for home theater nerds. Only way this would change would be if the next format is backwards compatable and are priced the same as DVDs.