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Xbox "Advanced Tech Engineers" discuss tech specs
- Thread starter PhatSaqs
- Start date
KeithFranklin
Banned
Pimpwerx said:
Why the fuck should anyone listen to Sony then? It is so amazing that people are willing to listen to Sony spinmasters as gospel, yet MS spinmasters are spewing horseshit.
Face it we have no real idea how much more powerful either console will be in any area except one and that is the PS3 ability to play back HD movies recording on Blu-Ray DVD's. Other than that most of the crap floating around this is uneducated skepticism.
I expect (Expect not saying it is the gods truth) that both consoles will be so comparable in power (Closer than XBOX vs PS2) that the raw horsepower will not be the differentiating factor when it comes to the games.
In my business (Business Software Development) CPU power, used to be very important. It isnt anymore. This is coming for games as well. Used to be that we would outfit developers with the most powerful machines available, now we give them adequate hardware and concentrate on giving them better tools and making the development frameworks better and more productive without sacrificing performance in most cases.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I guess it depends what those 32 pipes are doing? If yo have two 6800 cards in SLI mode, they have 32 pixel pipes total, but I'm pretty sure they would not actually run shaders faster than one 24+8 card (like G70, or probably R520 too).
Not anytime soon I'm afraid, but I'm very much looking forward to that day.
KeithFranklin said:
A small point but games are becoming increasingly cpu-bound. The demands on CPUs is not levelling out as it may have in other sectors, it's only increasing much higher. There's a reason things like dedicated physics chips etc. are appearing in the PC market - CPUs will be very stressed next gen. On top of everything else, they also seem to be taking a more active role in graphics and rendering in next-gen systems.
KeithFranklin said:
Who said anything about listening to Sony? I said don't listen to Major Nelson, that's pure trash. I wouldn't listen to a Sony PR site either? I'm saying wait for full disclosure of RSX details. That's not spin, I'm talking about details of the architecture and other specifications and then wait for the independant thrashing that will ensue. That's the key, seperating the info from the companies involved and having a look at just the hw.
Speaking of which, what would be some advantages of having the ALUs writing directly to memory? I can only imagine it offers some bonus for aggregate bandwidth. But I'm unfamiliar with how this will translate to fillrate or effects benefits. The thread Pug linked to has some very interesting teaser info that was added after I went to sleep last night. I'm now VERY eager to read Dave's article. Pana and Dave are killing me right now. Get your shit together guys. :lol PEACE.
Amir0x said:
the final fantasy demo comes to mind, implying that in game graphics would look like that. The GT demo shown was also way beyond what we got to see in the final game. i'm sure theres stuff that i forgot.
I just watched a mainstream gameshow on belgian telly and the showed stuff like the motorstorm demo and the killzone demo, and they explicitly said it was in game. The reason mainstream media are reporting this is because Sony is misleading them.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Oh God not again. Not again...
How do you people have such rose tintend short sighted memories? Look at those demos again. They look bad compared to what the realtime stuff on the PS2 eventually came to be.
Hajaz said:
This is precisely the kind of example I was hoping the hear, since it was debunked ages ago. Every single PS2 tech demo was surpassed. Don't believe me?
Please visit this thread. It's enlightening, not only because it's genuinely amazing how our memory distorts things over the years, but because it puts to death the lie that Sony somehow deceived people with the PS2 demos.
Will it be proved that the PS3 demos were not achievable by the end of PS3s life? That's another story entirely
Doom_Bringer
Banned
Hajaz said:fine, show me a GT real time pic that looks like this
That picture only looks good cause its resized, the real sized picture is ugly trust me.
Yes, I'm stealing this pic from the topic that was linked earlier that Hajaz apparently refuses to read, it's a full-res version of the pic Hajaz just posted from the GT demo, anyone who doesn't think GT3 (and obviously GT4) doesn't crap all over it like it was an outhouse pit has issues:
btw, the second version of that pic you showed, witch you claimed is actual size, is 1000*700 pixels or something.
the first one is much more near actual tv resolution, so your point about actual size is moot,
the pic has way more advanced lighting effects then the ps2 ever pulled off.
the first one is much more near actual tv resolution, so your point about actual size is moot,
the pic has way more advanced lighting effects then the ps2 ever pulled off.
I think this should be a bannable offense. For fuck's sake, WATCH THE GODDAMN VIDEOS AND THEN STFU!!! I tried to find the vids to shut people up, but IGN cockblocked me. Do some of the legwork yourself. Hunt down the videos (they were everywhere on the net for the longest time, should still be around) and have a good laugh at your own ignorance. That GT demo, in particular, was DESTROYED by GT3:A. I'm talking about car models, bgs...everything in GT3 destroyed it. Not even fucking close. If you think otherwise, you're clueless or blind. I swear, 6 fucking years of this nonsense is driving me crazy. When you watch them, also pay attention to the aliasing in abundance, as well as the clipping in the "prerendered" FF8 dance scene. Short memories and just plain stupid people. Argh! PEACE.Hajaz said:fine, show me a GT real time pic that looks like this
note the detail you can see in the reflection in the cars window. i can see windows from a building etc. show me an in game screen that has this kind of detail.
Hajaz said:
Dude, you're trying to be ignorant and that's your own deal. Look at the hideous, PSX-era texture mapping. The disgusting almost-baren background; the shitty shitty jaggies. GT3 and GT4 easily matched and surpassed the tech demo.
You denying this only proves your desire to bullshit.
actual TV resolution. Pic looks like it has something that nears real time raytracing on the windows. Something the actual game couldnt hope to pull off.
Bannable offence? people were asking for me to show footage witch i thought was misleading, so i posted it.
If you think GT3/4 looks that good, you need lasersurgery
Doom_Bringer
Banned
Pimpwerx said:
The video
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_2.mpg
Raytracing my ass hajaz, if anything YOU are the one who needs "lasersurgery"
LOL
then what are all those lightsource reflections bouncing of that car? hmm? What about the windshield where you can clearly see the reflection of a building complete with windows. hmmm?
didnt ever see that in a ps2 racer im affraid
Oh yea, that pic also had DVD movie-like bluring effects, witch the PS2 cant do in game either.
That face of an old man has individual hairs rendered on his head. didnt see many ps2 games with individual hairs rendered on characters.
Oh well..
then what are all those lightsource reflections bouncing of that car? hmm? What about the windshield where you can clearly see the reflection of a building complete with windows. hmmm?
didnt ever see that in a ps2 racer im affraid
Oh yea, that pic also had DVD movie-like bluring effects, witch the PS2 cant do in game either.
That face of an old man has individual hairs rendered on his head. didnt see many ps2 games with individual hairs rendered on characters.
Oh well..
Hajaz said:i'll take that as a "youre right, sorry" then
Without being too insulting, you can take that as a "you're so fucking stupid and/or blind that going any further with this discussion may result in temporary loss of motor functions."
Actually, that was still too insulting. Let's just leave it at that, then
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
It's a reflection map, and a shitty one at that. Have you seen what the GT3 night track looks like? You may want to check it out because it destroys the night scene from that picture, and even has gloss mapping on the road. In the city tracks you can also see the reflections of surrounding things quite easily.
Except that every other game does them, and much better than that. It's just framebuffer motion blur and it's been used and abused on PS2 to a degree that I find it incredible you can even make such a comment.
It's a texture+alpha... You can see that technques used in so many games nowadays, but for the recent example that comes to mind, Shadow of the Colossus uses that technique in a much better and more abundant way to render fur.
Here are the original PS2 press releases so people can decide for themselves if Sony delivered or not.
Original Press Releases
From the press releases:
Emotion Engine:
Geometry:
+ Perspective Transformation: 66 million polygons / sec
+ Lighting: 38 million polygons / sec
+ Fog: 36 million polygons / sec
Curved Surface Generation (Bezier): 16 million polygons / sec
Graphics Synthesizer:
When rendering small polygons, the peak drawing capacity is 75 million polygons per second and the system can render 150 million particles per second. With this large drawing capability, it is possible to render a movie-quality image. With Z buffering, textures, lighting and alpha blending (transparency), a sustained rate of 20 million polygons per second can be drawn continuously.
Rendering Performance
Pixel Fill Rate: 2.4 giga pixel per second (with Z buffer and Alphablend enabled), 1.2 giga pixel per second (with Z buffer, Alpha and Texture)
Particle Drawing Rate: 150 million/sec
Polygon Drawing Rate: 75 million/sec (small polygon), 50 million/sec (48 pixel quad with Z and A), 30 million/sec (50 pixel triangle with Z and A), 25 million/sec (48 pixel quad with Z, A and T)
Sprite Drawing Rate: 18.75 million (8 x 8 pixels)
Original Press Releases
From the press releases:
Emotion Engine:
Geometry:
+ Perspective Transformation: 66 million polygons / sec
+ Lighting: 38 million polygons / sec
+ Fog: 36 million polygons / sec
Curved Surface Generation (Bezier): 16 million polygons / sec
Graphics Synthesizer:
When rendering small polygons, the peak drawing capacity is 75 million polygons per second and the system can render 150 million particles per second. With this large drawing capability, it is possible to render a movie-quality image. With Z buffering, textures, lighting and alpha blending (transparency), a sustained rate of 20 million polygons per second can be drawn continuously.
Rendering Performance
Pixel Fill Rate: 2.4 giga pixel per second (with Z buffer and Alphablend enabled), 1.2 giga pixel per second (with Z buffer, Alpha and Texture)
Particle Drawing Rate: 150 million/sec
Polygon Drawing Rate: 75 million/sec (small polygon), 50 million/sec (48 pixel quad with Z and A), 30 million/sec (50 pixel triangle with Z and A), 25 million/sec (48 pixel quad with Z, A and T)
Sprite Drawing Rate: 18.75 million (8 x 8 pixels)
GhaleonEB said:
In the original press release Sony gave various figures for peak transformation with and without effects. IIRC they also gave 'realistic in-game figures' (which, of course, were a little on the high side as you'd expect) in interviews.
From the press release:
Geometry
+ Perspective Transformation 66Million Polygons/sec
+ Lighting 38Million Polygons/sec
+ Fog 36Million Polygons/sec
Cerebral Palsy
Banned
krypt0nian said:
Fixed.
GS Press Release said:
Why no one remembers this is beyond me. Oh that's right, they never bothered to read the press releases in the first place. Everyone (as in DC fans) were in full damage control mode from the very start. It's all in the GS and EE press releases. Reading is fundamental.
BTW, PS2 games never hit that figure, although Faf had corroborated that it was possible if you wanted to do nothing more than a tech demo. This was hashed over years ago. I don't know why it's suddenly being used to bash the PS3 announcement.
First of all, watch this again:Hajaz said:
http://ps2movies.ign.com/media/news/video/ps2demos/psx2_2.mpg
Second, if you want to continue to embarass youself, then realize that the head demo had some figures next to it. I believe one pic showed 100,000 polygons, and another said 66,000 vertices. It makes some sense since you can have more polygons than verts...if most of your model is a mesh, which the head demo was. The hair was individial strands, but nowhere near accurately. It's so obvious you have no clue what the hell you're talking about, b/c if you remember the demo, you'd know the man looked like he had a serious problem with thinning hair. It looked phenomenal at the time but by the time we hit launch, it wasn't anything special anymore. You're talkng about seeing these demos in 1999. In 2000, GT3, TTT and RR5 (the intro at least)...and Bouncer bitchslapped the shit out of these demos.
Do you even own a PS2? Pop in one of the aforementioned games again, and witness with your own eyes. Again, look at the aliasing in all the demos. It wasn't nitpicked at the time b/c the demos killed anything seen on the PC or DC at the time, but once the system launched in the midst of major damage control, suddenly jaggies were the talk of the town. But all the demos aliased like mad except the rubber ducky and other Sony demos like the feathers. Look at the Tekken demo that supposedly wasn't surpassed. It's laughable. The FF8 demo had obvious clipping going on. Pre-rendered my ass.
If you're not tracking down the videos to confirm this, then stfu. That you are so very wrong, and yet continuing to defend your flawed argument is annoying as hell. Concede this one. No one is coming to your aid. There's a reason for this. YOU ARE WRONG. It don't get no wronger.
BTW, you may forget, but The Bouncer demo ended up being one of the more hotly-debated demos from that show. The scripted animation was phenomenal at the time, and the amount of breakable stuff was jaw-dropping. But when the game came out and took a dump on the demo, suddenly people went quiet on it. Matter of fact, the debate about the game was about how much of it was FMV and how much was realtime, b/c there were lots of prerendered cutscenes in that game. Just get over this PS2 demo bullshit. Your credibility drops by leaps and bounds with each new post you put forward. It's not enough that everyone's telling you you're wrong. There's video ownage to go along with it. Just give it up already. PEACE.