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[Syphon Filter]

But Id get my mult-plats on the PS4 wouldnt I? It may seem sweeping already but it seems likely its always going to match or beat the XO version.

Thats really the crux of it for me, remove Kinect and as soon as I start to consider the XO to partner the PS4, Id have to consider the Wii U - Nintendos exclusives just are far more interesting to me...

Agreed, another good reason to consider the Wii U then

ps3ud0 8)

Yea that makes sense for your situation. I mean for someone who decides to settle for less and get a xbox one, that at least they still get support from 3rd party. A person who settles for less with wiiu doesn't have that same option.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Yo if true, I'm returning my One tomorrow. Fuck this nonsense. I was okay with getting the One in January because to me taking the Kinect out of the package dooms Kinect as a device developers would take seriously. I expected that at some point we'd see features that take advantage of all that fucking R&D money they sank into it. If they take it out, it's dead. Completely dead.
And I'd rather not have it.

 

[plagiarize]

To each their own, some people like voting with their wallets.

It's a big reason why I didn't buy a tv until some of the biggest/best models had non 3d options again. Same reason why I never bought a 3ds until the 2ds was a thing. Wouldn't see movies I wanted to see unless there was a 2d showing.

If people like me were fine supporting 3d but not using it, maybe they would still be trying to force 3d on people instead of taking it behind the shed to shoot it like they should.

Jesus. Just poke out one of your eyes already. The bolded is crazy.

 

[New002]

$399, keep kinect, add a game, and give me a game for dropping the price so soon

 

[3rdamention]

How are all the mouth pieces at MS gonna spin completely ditching their biggest talking point for the entire lead up to launch? Their entire navigation model is based around the kinect and every single press releases tries it's damdest to pump the kinects features down the throats of their fanbase?

You packed the damn thing in the box... to about face less than a year later for the sake of a price cut out of desperation would probably be smart financially but ... jesus.. what do you do about the people who already bit? So many salty Xbone fans that are gonna want a 100 rebate.

Harsh times yo...

I kinda said the same thing earlier. As much as Microsoft PR has talked up Kinect, saying it was essential to the Xbox One experience, and how the system was built around it (well, look at how its built, it basically is).


Microsoft has not come across as humble, not really at all. They tried with the 180 DRM reversals, but then saying gamers weren't "ready for their vision" kills any attempt at being humble.

I still have a hard time believing this rumor. As much as I think this has to happen at some point, especially if January is a sign of things to come, it just feels to early. Especially to throw a Kinectless version with a cheaper price in the face of your early adopters, some of whom I assume would have rather had a cheaper kinectless version. Interesting times ahead, indeed,

 

[ReBurn]

To each their own, some people like voting with their wallets.

It's a big reason why I didn't buy a tv until some of the biggest/best models had non 3d options again. Same reason why I never bought a 3ds until the 2ds was a thing. Wouldn't see movies I wanted to see unless there was a 2d showing.

If people like me were fine supporting 3d but not using it, maybe they would still be trying to force 3d on people instead of taking it behind the shed to shoot it like they should.

Keep it real, brother. Show them how it's done.

 

[infiniteheteroskdasticity]

Almost shocking news category. I wouldn't be surprised is this a non US sku only. The Xbox One is doing fine in the US but it is getting destroyed by a margin that would make the 360 look good outside the US market. They absolutely HAVE to do this. I'd go a step further and call it a new console. Use the Xbox One's processing hardware minus the Kinect and HDMI in bits and call it the Xbox Core or something. Make the Xbox One US exclusive and the Xbox Core non US market exclusive and they might be able to reach some sort of "honorable loser" state in non US markets.

Edit: Just saw the npd tweet and take back the "doing fine in US" bit. They're f*cked in the US too. They need to do the "Xbox Core" as above in all markets ... its doesn't matter if if cannibalizes Xbox One sales.

 

[Hubble]

They wont remove Kinect because XBO also uses Skype. MS wants everyone to use Skype on their TVs and wants people to accept Skype across all of their services.

 

[Drainer]

The irony (or stupidity) of this situation is that had Microsoft spent the money they're going to need to now spend to righ the ship, back at the start, they would have been in a far better position now and long term.

So stupid. So so so stupid.

 

[Syphon Filter]

Almost shocking news category. I wouldn't be surprised is this a non US sku only. The Xbox One is doing fine in the US but it is getting destroyed by a margin that would make the 360 look good outside the US market. They absolutely HAVE to do this. I'd go a step further and call it a new console. Use the Xbox One's processing hardware minus the Kinect and HDMI in bits and call it the Xbox Core or something. Make the Xbox One US exclusive and the Xbox Core non US market exclusive and they might be able to reach some sort of "honorable loser" state in non US markets.

It's not doing fine in the u.s. These numbers are bad in Jan. There best hope is the u.s and sony is beating them there too. That is not good at all. Feb is also usually down too compared to Jan.

 

[ps3ud0]

Yea that makes sense for your situation. I mean for someone who decides to settle for less and get a xbox one, that at least they still get support from 3rd party. A person who settles for less with wiiu doesn't have that same option.

Yeah true, sorry I wasnt clear that it was my own ruminations - think sub-consciously I really want a Wii U!

ps3ud0 8)

 

[Toki767]

$399 with a game is nice, but I still want Kinect included. Give me all that for $399 and ya got me MS. Assuming the bundled game would be Titanfall.

This will most definitely happen by next Christmas with or without Microsoft officially dropping the price. It'll probably be a Black Friday sale at the least.

 

[Fox Mulder]

They wont remove Kinect because XBO also uses Skype. MS wants everyone to use Skype on their TVs and wants people to accept Skype across all of their services.

then sell it as an accessory. If the Kinect has so much potential and uses, people will still buy it.

I want a Kinect-less version, but even if they do it, it's still a poor value at $400 compared to what the ps4 is.

they really fucked up.

 

[Forsaken82]

Wow, I still am skeptical they would ever ditch Kinect. That would be such a failure.

It isn't ditching it if no one is taking advantage of it..

They will still sell it separately and it will likely do as well as it does on 360. I personally always thought that if Kinect didn't take off with developers like MS anticipated (i.e. everyone utilized in a similar manner devs did with the Wii) they would end up doing something like this, however the timing is pretty quick if this is legit. I would not have expected this till fall.

 

[EmiPrime]

Whether it's with or without the Kinect they have to price-match the PS4 by the end of the year. If they don't, Sony will eat their lunch.

 

[mrg6290]

I love Kinect, and I still hope they drop it from the package. Well maybe not drop it from the package, but it definitely should not be keeping games from using more resources on the console. Supposedly there is a patch coming that will make it so?

Kinect, as an always on mic-array allowing everyone in my household to control the whole media center by voice, is amazing. Kinect, as a gesture sensing camera stealing hardware resources, is garbage. I am in love with what Kinect voice control is able to do, but I still haven't seen one thing that makes me feel like the motion sensing camera aspect is worth it. I do not want motion control games, and the little touches so far that have been added to "core" games have been essentially worthless. (I can lean in BF4... Wow... Oh, but I also have to deal with a little image at the top of the screen indicating it is tracking my position. Pass)

I wish Kinect was just an advanced mic array w/ an HD camera for Skype. Save money/resources by not having an advanced device capable of tracking multiple people in a room, detecting my heartbeat, etc. Integrate voice control into every app and corner of the OS, but don't worry about shoehorning it into games.

 

[ismk]

There's no way Microsoft is going to do a Kinectless Xbox One. This is one CBOAT prediction that I can't see come true.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

I still don't feel like they are going to drop the Kinect. The Kinect cost way to much for them to make for it to be separate. That's an investment that they want in every home. Making people have the option is going to break their vision. I think they will stick by their guns on this one and probably just drop the price to $450.

 

[Syphon Filter]

There's no way Microsoft is going to do a Kinectless Xbox One. This is one CBOAT prediction that I can't see come true.

Prediction? He said it will happen,he does not predict. How is there no way?

 

[Syphon Filter]

I still don't feel like they are going to drop the Kinect. The Kinect cost way to much for them to make for it to be separate. That's an investment that they want in every home. Making people have the option is going to break their vision. I think they will stick by their guns on this one and probably just drop the price to $450.

You realize if they drop with kinect they lose more money right?They need to at lesat match sony and no kinect will do that without a big loss.

 

[NullPointer]

I wonder how much MS has considered:

A. Ditching the Gold fee and aiming their guns at that wider audience of media and app enthusiasts with gaming secondary. It fits the priorities in the hardware, removes a barrier to entry for non-gamers (the Gold fee) and keeps the Kinect relevant for the UI/Skype, non-gaming features. They'd lose the fee but I'd imagine they could make up some of that if not more through advertising channels.

B. Turning Gold into a direct media subscription ala Netflix or even a wider range of perks ala Amazon Prime. In other words, providing some actual indisputable value for that fee, to all users of the system.

Both are pivots away from their focus on games right now - a focus that I cannot see them regaining the lead, not with the way the console was designed, and not with the price and competition.

Neither option would gain my interest, but they seem like better ways to position this thing they've made than the way they've been going about it.

 

[CraZed]

called this shit while they were doing all the 180s. shit sales compared to ps4 basically confirms it... $399 kinectless sku before e3.

Yeah I thought the same thing. Them releasing some of the Kinect's GPU resources should have been a dead give away to any one paying attention.

 

[chur]

What if they nerfed the $400 version severely? Took out the disk drive, removed Kinect, and gave it like a 250GB removable HDD? Made it like a arcade/core vs premium type of thing.

 

[infiniteheteroskdasticity]

It's not doing fine in the u.s. These numbers are bad in Jan. There best hope is the u.s and sony is beating them there too. That is not good at all. Feb is also usually down too compared to Jan.

Yeah .. hadn't seen the NPD tweet. Blew my estimates (minor PS4 lead) out of the water. Panic time for Xbox. My guess is Titanfall is the last stand of Xbox One as we know it. If it fails to "win" NPDs in march for MSFT by a a significant margin its all over for the $499 rrp and the bundled Kinect. I doubt they'd even wait till E3 and just decide to give early buyers a free game.

 

[Vilam]

Not bad... my purchase would depend on if it's a game I truly wanted or not though. I'd prefer kinectless and a $350 console by itself.

 

[Fushichou187]

I can see them ditching Kinect but only after perhaps reducing functionality elsewhere as a way to punish those that don't want Kinect and make those that shelled out $500 look like they bought the better machine.

 

[infiniteheteroskdasticity]

I wonder how much MS has considered:

A. Ditching the Gold fee and aiming their guns at that wider audience of media and app enthusiasts with gaming secondary. It fits the priorities in the hardware, removes a barrier to entry for non-gamers (the Gold fee) and keeps the Kinect relevant for the UI/Skype, non-gaming features. They'd lose the fee but I'd imagine they could make up some of that if not more through advertising channels.

B. Turning Gold into a direct media subscription ala Netflix or even a wider range of perks ala Amazon Prime. In other words, providing some actual indisputable value for that fee, to all users of the system.

Both are pivots away from their focus on games right now - a focus that I cannot see them regaining the lead, not with the way the console was designed, and not with the price and competition.

Neither option would gain my interest, but they seem like better ways to position this thing they've made than the way they've been going about it.

Both excellent ideas but the problem is its too late to do it in time unless they were already in the pipeline. They need to cut price to at least match the PS4 asap before the lose too much marketshare. Things like being outsold >2:1 globally have a way of snowballing quickly. Before you know it, XBLG friends are telling their contacts to look for them on PS+ and EA/Respawn is looking for ways out of its Titanfall exclusivity deal.

 

[Hubble]

then sell it as an accessory. If the Kinect has so much potential and uses, people will still buy it.

I want a Kinect-less version, but even if they do it, it's still a poor value at $400 compared to what the ps4 is.

they really fucked up.

That will not broaden the awareness of Skype, so MS wont do it. Also TV to TV communication is relatively new for people to know to buy it as an accessory.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

What if they nerfed the $400 version severely? Took out the disk drive, removed Kinect, and gave it like a 250GB removable HDD? Made it like a arcade/core vs premium type of thing.

The point is to increase sales.

I wonder how much MS has considered:

A. Ditching the Gold fee and aiming their guns at that wider audience of media and app enthusiasts with gaming secondary. It fits the priorities in the hardware, removes a barrier to entry for non-gamers (the Gold fee) and keeps the Kinect relevant for the UI/Skype, non-gaming features. They'd lose the fee but I'd imagine they could make up some of that if not more through advertising channels.

B. Turning Gold into a direct media subscription ala Netflix or even a wider range of perks ala Amazon Prime. In other words, providing some actual indisputable value for that fee, to all users of the system.

Both are pivots away from their focus on games right now - a focus that I cannot see them regaining the lead, not with the way the console was designed, and not with the price and competition.

Neither option would gain my interest, but they seem like better ways to position this thing they've made than the way they've been going about it.

They will never ditch Gold, it's the source of most of the Xbox brand profit.

I do think they would be smart to leverage the Gold fee for access to Xbox Music or Xbox movies - two platform exclusive services that I'm sure are getting mauled by Netflix and Itunes. But MS hasn't had a forward thinking idea for the platform since they announced the original Kinect in 2009, unless you count the all consoles = devkits thing, which still is TBA.

 

[Fushichou187]

The point is to increase sales.

I think it's been well established that what a lot of potential consumers and Xbox supporters think MS ought to do in order to increase sales, and what MS thinks it ought to do, are unfortunately leagues apart.

 

[AdventureRacing]

A necessary move. They simply need a console on the market that is competitively priced with the PS4 or they will have no chance. This does make me wonder what they actually have planned for kinect, i asked this a few weeks ago. Basically it feels like they don't have a real push for the device and it's being wasted. Supposedly it was the thing that would differentiate them from the PS4 and they have done nothing with it. It's barely been advertised and support is non existent. How was it supposed to move any consoles?

 

[Zophar]

Giving up on Kinect means giving up on the last thing that gave this console any semblance of identity or vision, and will only damage the brand for -maybe- modest short term success at a lower price point. Without it the console loses its only advantage over its direct competitor and it won't take long for people to figure that out.

Cutting the price 20% in the first year will burn early adopters and make wait-and-seers suspicious; whose to say another cut won't happen again in the near future?

The revenue left on the table in order to do a massive price cut will only keep the Xbox division in the same holding pattern it's been in since 2001. Will the company tolerate another generation's worth of a cash sinkhole in order to keep chasing the living room domination? It's clear as day that XB1 was supposed to be the final phase execution, but the 180s have already complicated that plan. They need to see numbers in the black yesterday.

There's no good way out of this situation for MS, I think. It's a shit sandwich no matter what they do. Sony managed to wade its way out of the fumbled PS3 launch with smart manufacturing economizing (slowly phasing out backwards compatibility over about a year's time) and adding more value alongside price cuts. Taking out Kinect seems really boneheaded.

 

[freefornow]

What if they just lowered the current set up to $399 (keeping Kinect-you dont have to use it if you dont want to).
Would MS be in a position to argue the "value proposition" of the One then?

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

You realize if they drop with kinect they lose more money right?They need to at lesat match sony and no kinect will do that without a big loss.

.. Um no. The Kinect cost them millions to create. All the investments they put in it will see far less risk dropping the entire system $50 less because they don't have to worry about their investment going to waste versus completely selling the Kinect as optional equipment with their investments going to waste. The whole point of the Xbox revolves around the Kinect. The best features are done with the Kinect. They see something in voice control and unlike other competitors, they want to make sure there is a 95% attachment and usage rate with the Kinect as they spent all that money making sure it works as they imagined it. So in this case, no, I don't believe Microsoft would everything consider a Kinect less sku before a experimental price cut. Let's be real.

 

[Surface of Me]

What if they just lowered the current set up to $399 (keeping Kinect-you dont have to use it if you dont want to).
Would MS be in a position to argue the "value proposition" of the One then?

They'd be selling it at a pretty big loss then, especially if they threw a game in it too. Unless it was LocoCycle or something.

 

[Syphon Filter]

.. Um no. The Kinect cost them millions to create. All the investments they put in it will see far less risk dropping the entire system $50 less because they don't have to worry about their investment going to waste versus completely selling the Kinect as optional equipment with their investments going to waste. The whole point of the Xbox revolves around the Kinect. The best features are done with the Kinect. They see something in voice control and unlike other competitors, they want to make sure there is a 95% attachment and usage rate with the Kinect as they spent all that money making sure it works as they imagined it. So in this case, no, I don't believe Microsoft would everything consider a Kinect less sku before a experimental price cut. Let's be real.

People said the same thing about drm and we saw what happened there. Selling it with kinect at cheaper than currently is going to cost them more and for years to come.

 

[chur]

The point is to increase sales.

I don't have much faith in the intelligence of the average consumer. They'll just look at the price and think it's a steal. Same people who bought a 4GB Xbox 360.

 

[Zaph]

What if they just lowered the current set up to $399 (keeping Kinect-you dont have to use it if you dont want to).
Would MS be in a position to argue the "value proposition" of the One then?

All rumours and news point to Xbox being the black sheep at Microsoft. So many resources are thrown at it yet it's such a tiny part of the company. Plus, if you take into account all cash spent since the first xbox, IIRC the division had yet to be profitable.

I doubt anyone at MS is going to authorise another $100 loss per console. They'll want a sku change.

 

[freefornow]

They'd be selling it at a pretty big loss then, especially if they threw a game in it too. Unless it was LocoCycle or something.

Probably, but MS keep insisting that Kinect does not add $100 to the price of XB1.

 

[REDRZA]

Giving up on Kinect means giving up on the last thing that gave this console any semblance of identity or vision, and will only damage the brand for -maybe- modest short term success at a lower price point. Without it the console loses its only advantage over its direct competitor and it won't take long for people to figure that out.

Cutting the price 20% in the first year will burn early adopters and make wait-and-seers suspicious; whose to say another cut won't happen again in the near future?

The revenue left on the table in order to do a massive price cut will only keep the Xbox division in the same holding pattern it's been in since 2001. Will the company tolerate another generation's worth of a cash sinkhole in order to keep chasing the living room domination? It's clear as day that XB1 was supposed to be the final phase execution, but the 180s have already complicated that plan. They need to see numbers in the black yesterday.

There's no good way out of this situation for MS, I think. It's a shit sandwich no matter what they do. Sony managed to wade its way out of the fumbled PS3 launch with smart manufacturing economizing (slowly phasing out backwards compatibility over about a year's time) and adding more value alongside price cuts. Taking out Kinect seems really boneheaded.

Sony has always been the king of hardware. They are the best at quickly reducing chip sizes, reducing manufacturing costs, releasing "slim" model hardware, and most of all, FOCUSING ON GAMES.

Lets be honest, MS fucked this up royally. The 360, aside from its initial hardware issues (RRoD) was an awesome game console. For its time (Just like the OG Xbox before it) was cutting edge tech, was an easy console to develop for, had a year head start, and the best online gaming service period.

Mid way through the 360's life, MS just stopped caring about creating new IP, or any IP outside of Halo, Gears, Forza, and Fable. They tried to jump on Nintendos band wagon with gimmick motion controls with Kinect, and despite it selling gang busters initially, just like the Wii fad it completely fell off, and was never a real factor for developers or gaming in general. By the time that was clear and apparent, i'm sure MS was already knee deep with their plans for Kinect 2.0 and it being packaged with their next console.

Then the reveal of Xbox One, it was about Kinect voice control for UI, TV input, and BTW, heres a trailer for COD Ghosts which was a current gen game anyway. Then we find out about always online, strict DRM, Kinect mandatory, no used games. The cherry on top? weak specs for gaming.

MS fucked up when they decided and thought an "all in one entertainment device" was better than a true next gen game console. The Xbox brand is established as a GAME CONSOLE, that yes, does other good things, but once you GIMP the gaming aspect, Kinect, TV, media, skype, none of that shit matters without the best looking and playing games. All at $100 more than their higher powered competition.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I don't have much faith in the intelligence of the average consumer. They'll just look at the price and think it's a steal. Same people who bought a 4GB Xbox 360.

Wouldn't it be smarter for MS to offer the best possible package at the lower price, so it doesn't look like a complete POS next to the PS4? "Here's a box that's $399, but not only is it weaker, but it has no disk drive and a smaller HDD. They don't really save us that much and it's terribly inconvenient for you, what with the average game taking up 1/5th of your drive, but...hey, why are you buying a PS4?"

What would be the point? The 4GB 360 actually makes sense if you don't really buy DLC or XBLA games. If you do a low end SKU, you have to actually have low end pricing. A "tard pack" Xbox One shouldn't cost more than a Wii U. And it can never really exist, because mandatory installs.

I predict they will bundle at least one Kinect game in the $499 SKU, and one of the Dead Rising/Forza/Ryse/Titanfall games with the $399 SKU. Focus all of your marketing on games, and you have a chance of salvaging some marketshare.

 

[yodathesoda]

Don't believe it.

MS is not a knee jerk sort of company especially with a huge game like Titanfall on the way next month. One month sales will not dictate a price drop and getting rid of Kinect.

Not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Sydle]

.. Um no. The Kinect cost them millions to create. All the investments they put in it will see far less risk dropping the entire system $50 less because they don't have to worry about their investment going to waste versus completely selling the Kinect as optional equipment with their investments going to waste. The whole point of the Xbox revolves around the Kinect. The best features are done with the Kinect. They see something in voice control and unlike other competitors, they want to make sure there is a 95% attachment and usage rate with the Kinect as they spent all that money making sure it works as they imagined it. So in this case, no, I don't believe Microsoft would everything consider a Kinect less sku before a experimental price cut. Let's be real.

I get what you're saying, but they allow people to unplug it and not have to use it ever again after the initial setup. For me, that translates to it being disposable.

I'd like to see them keep it, but they need to make it really valuable out of the box beyond voice commands to get around the dashboard. It may be cool if they make premium, popular party Kinect games like Kinect Sports Rivals and Dance Central F2P, supported by in-game purchases that don't splinter the user base. It would allow buyers to get a lot of mileage from Kinect out of the box and get familiar with using it.

For example, KSR could give you access to all sports no matter how many they add and allow you to buy things to customize your character with accessories (like TF2's hats) or skins (e.g., Master Chief, Orchid, Marcus Fenix, Banjo, Conker, etc.), or buy custom sports equipment (tennis racket is a frying pan, wave racer has neon lights, bowling ball has Spinal's skull in it, etc.). Dance Central could come with 30 songs, with a new premium one to try free weekly, and more songs are $1.99 a track or buy in bundles in monthly sales. Both games could have leaderboards showing how your friends are doing and have weekly community challenges to prompt users to return and try something new.

It's not like those would take a huge investment by MS for a content plan. For KSR rivals they could bring over a lot of the previous sports from KS 1 and 2 to add on top of the 6 new sports (I really want table tennis back!) and they could bring over all the previous Dance Central songs as the free rotating ones.

Those F2P and Project Spark, on top of rumored other F2P games such as Fable Legends, could make the Xbox One/Kinect worth a lot out of the box and be long-term money makers, with millions of users playing and buying. May work out well so long as MS takes a consumer-friendly approach to F2P (see Valve).

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Don't believe it.

MS is not a knee jerk sort of company especially with a huge game like Titanfall on the way next month. One month sales will not dictate a price drop and getting rid of Kinect.

Not going to happen anytime soon.

MS just got a new CEO because they utterly failed to knee-jerk on quite a few trends in the past 5 years. I'm sure there's a landfill full of Surface RT's somewhere because someone insisted that MS "stick to their guns".

 

[Rex_Harrison]

Sadly enough, the Kinect is the only thing that makes the Bone stand out right now. If they remove it, it would do more harm than good at this point. It'd be yet another 180 from MS and it'd damage their rep even more than it already is. They just need to lower the price to $400.

Oh, and MS is developing a TV show based on Nas's life story that will be available to Gold subscribers. Who is Nas you ask ? Why the hell would I want to watch that shit you ask ?

Um Yeah ....... MS is in trouble.

 

[Teletraan1]

The bottom line is that it wont matter if it is not on par specs wise if they can keep up their misinformation campaign. They have already succeeded in muddying the waters enough with plenty of help from hack sites like GameSpot or Richard

Spoiler

Yellow

Leadbetter as well as low bit-rate 720p YouTube trailers, were consumers wont know the differences.

Which console is more powerful according to this nonsense chart?

 

[darkwing]

In cboat we trust

 

[Plasmid]

PRAISE BASED CBOAT.

I am 100% in for an X1 if there is a kinectless version for $400.

 

[demigod]

Kinectless sku with metro ui will be lotsa fun!

 

[slapnuts]

Kinect 2.0 is easily worth an extra $100 - for exercise games alone. I'm loving Xbox Fitness. Dropping the Kinect would be a mistake me thinks

maybe it is for you and a minority but for the majority it is not! And there is plenty of proof for this.