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[Deeper Underground]

Question is this because it is designed based off SSD. I remember seeing a video where a guy tried to play star citizen off the HDD. And it started chugging a long. So wouldn't it only affect frame rate that way? Isn't that the reason XSX and PS5 games will not play off the HDD?

I mean that’s basically just a little piece of the equation. XSX and PS5 are going to SSD because a regular HDD would be too slow in trying to access data from different parts of the drive when it does it seeks. By swapping to a SSD, you eliminate this as the SSD doesn’t need to seek to access data. That alone will stop the micro-stuttering that you would see if you were to run a game at like Ultra settings but still used a HDD.

Now the exciting part of these systems is that not only do you have the immediate benefit of the SSD, you now have the I/O throughput being at a speed that it’s able to access this data on the SSD almost instantly, pushing details and density at a speed never seen before. It makes me giddy to think we could theoretically get a port of Star Citizen on XSX/PS5.

 

[too much eslim]

Presumably yes. World of Warcraft also has that problem on PC. Loading up on SSD is quick and there's no stuttering once you're in the world. On HDD it's like your computer is going to explode for the first 10 minutes.

So it technically doesn't improve frame rate then? Having a faster SSD will not allow you to go from 30 to 60 fps?

 

[Panajev2001a]

You buy it from Seagate, not Microsoft.

Seagate is the exclusive supplier, this is a proprietary Xbox exclusive accessory. PSP and PS Vita redeemed for their proprietary storage solution then?

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Yeah... proprietary and yet you could buy them from Sandisk as well as Sony and others. Loving this, people throwing shit at the PSP for the Memory Stick based storage and defending the SSD you can only buy from MS as more pro-consumer... .

You need to relax with the 20 year old comparisons, I have no interest in them. What I am looking at is present day solution to present day solution.

Microsoft have gone ‘proprietary’ to guarantee the performance. If they have a silly price mark up on them then that is something to discuss as and when that is revealed.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

PS5 vs. Xbox Series X: a complicated battle of SSD and GPU speeds

Game developers will demonstrate the real power of both consoles

www.theverge.com

A dev commented

Which dev? In a frickin comment section! Exactly that link and dev comment is mocked left and right on ERA.

Devs react to PS5 specs - Twitter edition

Thank you 😂

www.resetera.com

 

[Bernkastel]

Oh yeah... and people found hacks to use SD’s on Vita too, so ?

nope you need to buy a memory card adapter and mod your PS Vita(breaking the EULA). Xbox 360 modded hard drives didnt need any of that.

 

[Deeper Underground]

So it technically doesn't improve frame rate then? Having a faster SSD will not allow you to go from 30 to 60 fps?

No you are misunderstanding. The possibility of it increasing FPS absolutely can happen. Now, how you are somehow trying to jump from 30 to 60 FPS comes down to the developers making the game. If your game is fluctuating between 30 and 60 frames while playing, that’s a pretty unoptimized game.

 

[Panajev2001a]

You need to relax with the 20 year old comparisons, I have no interest in them. What I am looking at is present day solution to present day solution.

, “can you please disregard the evidence that does not suit my narrative and just agree with me please?”

Microsoft have gone ‘proprietary’ to guarantee the performance.

Sony said basically the same about their PS Vita proprietary cards decision...

 

[Bernkastel]

Which dev? In a frickin comment section! Exactly that link and dev comment is mocked left and right on ERA.

Devs react to PS5 specs - Twitter edition

Thank you 😂

www.resetera.com

Ready at Dawn is a Sony second party studio. A real dev also said this

 

[Panajev2001a]

nope you need to buy a memory card adapter and mod your PS Vita(breaking the EULA). Xbox 360 modded hard drives didnt need any of that.

Sounds like an easy and totally supported way indeed. Totally pro consumer then .

 

[Kacho]

So it technically doesn't improve frame rate then? Having a faster SSD will not allow you to go from 30 to 60 fps?

No. It helps with streaming assets into the world lightning fast. SSDs can do it lightning fast whereas HDDs obviously struggle for a while depending on the game. It causes MASSIVE stutter. The faster the SSD the quicker the process but we’re talking mega diminishing returns there.

 

[too much eslim]

No you are misunderstanding. The possibility of it increasing FPS absolutely can happen. Now, how you are somehow trying to jump from 30 to 60 FPS comes down to the developers making the game. If your game is fluctuating between 30 and 60 frames while playing, that’s a pretty unoptimized game.

I remember with star citizen that the game stream it's asset's I can see that were the benefit of a fast SSD matter's because it's getting everything loaded quicker, but technically wouldn't PS5 advantage only be shown through exclusives? Because in theory XSX and PC would hold back the PS5 advantage in the SSD area. Plus there is no way to tell it couldn't be done on another platform because it's exclusive.

 

[SportsFan581]

The same shit was thrown at Sony for the PSP which used Memory Stick cards. Much cheaper, non Sony exclusive, and still gathered scorn. Xbox 360 and XSX HDD/SSD packaged in a proprietary enclosure though = pro-consumer...

I've agreed that I think the prices will be padded a bit (I don't think they'll pad the prices to the level Sony did with Vita), that isn't really "pro-consumer", no. But if on launch day the market value of a XSX drive is maybe $125 and they are selling the "memory card" for $160, that doesn't look bad to the consumer if the alternative is finding a 7GB/s drive for PSV at $200-$300 dollars. All just speculative numbers of course. Any way you look at it, the XSX drive is two tiers (4.5-5GB/s and 7GB/s) below what it looks like is needed on PSV for an upgrade drive, that comes at a savings that will likely survive a little price gouging, IMO.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Ready at Dawn is a Sony second party studio. A real dev also said this

Those are very good points, not sure what Sony has on top of Kraken, but you start with an over 2x bandwidth advantage... People seem to hate asterisks over PS5’s variable frequency and performance, but the peak SSD’s figures for XSX based on best case texture compression only is fair only to a point.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Can we travel back in time to the PSP days when people gave Sony shit for the Memory Stick cards ? Or the PS Vita memory ones?

Couple huge differences:

A.) Storage speed/bandwidth is a minimum requirement for system functionality this time around, in both consoles. Compatibility is an issue, slower drives can compromise what the systems are supposed to be doing on multiple levels.

B.) The SSD expansion options for PS5 aren’t on the market currently and will have to be a specific size/specification to work in the PS5. Who even knows about the cooling solution (XsX cards have a heatsink). These cards will not be cheap.

I know it seems funny but this is an exception, a situation where I honestly understand the proprietary route and believe it is the right choice.

just my opinions, of course

excuse typos, my phones autocorrect gets me everytime

 

[Panajev2001a]

I've agreed that I think the prices will be padded a bit (I don't think they'll pad the prices to the level Sony did with Vita), that isn't really "pro-consumer", no. But if on launch day the market value of a XSX drive is maybe $99 and they are selling the "memory card" for $130, that doesn't look bad to the consumer if the alternative is finding a 7GB/s drive for PSV at $200-$300 dollars. All just speculative numbers of course. Any way you look at it, the XSX drive is two tiers (4.5-5GB/s and 7GB/s) below what it looks like is needed on PSV, that comes at a savings that will likely survive a little price gouging, IMO.

Why do you keep repeating that you need a 7 GB/s drive? The figure is 5.5 GB/S and the system is still a long way away. Consoles like this way for 5-7 years and prices of such drives are likely to keep falling and falling (it also helps when a manufacturer is paying SSD makers for all that flash and the SSD makers are already going in that direction).

Also, not sure knowing that you may have to pay more on a different console for extra storage, for a limited time mind you, does not make the proprietary solution‘s premium much fairer. In one case the price is open market price based on performance and features.

 

[Deeper Underground]

I remember with star citizen that the game stream it's asset's I can see that were the benefit of a fast SSD matter's because it's getting everything loaded quicker, but technically wouldn't PS5 advantage only be shown through exclusives? Because in theory XSX and PC would hold back the PS5 advantage in the SSD area. Plus there is no way to tell it couldn't be done on another platform because it's exclusive.

Possibly, but if the XSX also has a faster SSD, that’s going to encourage more devs to take advantage of the I/O and SSD speeds. Remember, a rising tide lifts all ships.

 

[too much eslim]

No. It helps with streaming assets into the world lightning fast. SSDs can do it lightning fast whereas HDDs obviously struggle for a while depending on the game. It causes MASSIVE stutter. The faster the SSD the quicker the process but we’re talking mega diminishing returns there.

Gotcha I remember seeing SSD vids comparisons and while some were different nothing the best one didn't have a clear advantage performance base on its price. The second and sometimes the 3rd best SSD showed similar load times as the best one sometimes depending on the game 1 or 2 seconds off.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Couple huge differences:

A.) Storage speed/bandwidth is a minimum requirement for system functionality this time around, in both consoles. Compatibility is an issue, slower drives can compromise what the systems are supposed to be doing on multiple levels.

B.) The SSD expansion options for PS5 aren’t on the market currently and will have to be a specific size/specification to work in the PS5. Who even knows about the cooling solution (XsX cards have a heatsink). These cards will not be cheap.

I know it seems funny but this is an exception, a situation where I honestly understand the proprietary route and believe it is the right choice.

just my opinions, of course

excuse typos, my phones autocorrect gets me everytime

Same excuse was used for the PS Vita by Sony (games installed to the cart still have bandwidth and read times requirement, it is not magic) ... either we accept both or neither gets a free pass. Not sure why the difference here.

 

[SportsFan581]

Why do you keep repeating that you need a 7 GB/s drive?

Because Cerny made it sound like they really need that overhead in order for the PSV controller to match performance with the internal drive. I expect 99% of the drives compatible will be 7GB/s.

 

[SportsFan581]

Same excuse was used for the PS Vita by Sony (games installed to the cart still have bandwidth and read times requirement, it is not magic) ... either we accept both or neither gets a free pass. Not sure why the difference here.

It's all about pricing, if MS releases the upgrade drives at 3.5x the going rate for that performance level (as Sony did with the Vita cards), you will hear about it online. I would never doubt that. I can't say if I think the pricing will be "fair" or not, since I don't know the prices. The XSX drives could be $200, hell, the 7GB/s drives needed by PSV might be $400, we've got to wait and see.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Same excuse was used for the PS Vita by Sony (games installed to the cart still have bandwidth and read times requirement, it is not magic) ... either we accept both or neither gets a free pass. Not sure why the difference here.

This time it doesn’t appear to be an excuse, though.

 

[Deeper Underground]

Gotcha I remember seeing SSD vids comparisons and while some were different nothing the best one didn't have a clear advantage performance base on its price. The second and sometimes the 3rd best SSD showed similar load times as the best one sometimes depending on the game 1 or 2 seconds off.

That’s why it misleading when people keep posting these silly SSD comparisons from YouTube because it’s apples to oranges. You have a SSD that is built for an open system like a PC that is not directly tied to the CPU and GPU vs. the SSD in PS5/XSX that are in closed systems and built fundamentally to work in unison with the APUs. To say they are only good for faster loading does both systems a disservice.

 

[Panajev2001a]

This time it doesn’t appear to be an excuse, though.

Of course, it is not Sony saying it this time, right ?... No way they could publish an enclosure or connector for your own SSD only?
I bet they will do at some point...

 

[Panajev2001a]

It's all about pricing, if MS releases the upgrade drives at 3.5x the going rate for that performance level (as Sony did with the Vita cards), you will hear about it online. I would never doubt that. I can't say if I think the pricing will be "fair" or not, since I don't know the prices. The XSX drives could be $200, hell, the 7GB/s drives needed by PSV might be $400, we've got to wait and see.

Beside some hilariously badly setup tests using the PC based transfer tool, there are no public benchmarks of the Sony solution vs SD, so not sure how you can compute this 3.5x price premium (especially without comparing those cards against el cheapo “deals” for some no name SD card).


Still, why do you keep saying 7 GB/s needed for PS5 over and over?
This is intentionally misleading now. The minimum spec for the expanded storage SSD solution. It is 5.5 GB/s (or a little bit above that if the drive lacks the right priority levels granularity).

 

[Andodalf]

When thinking about a HDD/SDD performance impact, i find it helpful to think of the old Halo games, when there would be that little pause as you went from one area to the next. SSDs eliminate those, and can make games where traditional HDDs would need those pauses multiple times a second, causing bad stuttering. This can be seen in Star Citizen. That's my take at least.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Most powerful, not the fastest. It’s basically Superman vs. The Flash at this point. Also a good point that Digital Foundry brought up that we aren’t taking about, what would MS do if more and more developers adopt having these 7Gb/s SSDs and building games around it? Sony would be fine since the PS5 is built for it, but would MS have to possibly address it in an XSX Pro?

SSD speed, not the fastest, but CPU GPU and RAM else, they are faster and more powerful..

 

[Neofire]

Yup. A 5.5 GB/s NVMe 1 TB SSD will cost around 300 USD.

Patriot Viper VP4100 M.2 2280 1TB PCIe Gen4 x4, NVMe 1.3 Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) VP4100-1TBM28H - Newegg.com

Buy Patriot Viper VP4100 M.2 2280 1TB PCIe Gen4 x4, NVMe 1.3 Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) VP4100-1TBM28H with fast shipping and top-rated customer service. Once you know, you Newegg!

www.newegg.com

Upto 4.8 GB/s, costs 240 USD.
Many people will have to contend with the included 825 GB SSD.

The SSD alone may drive PS5 price to around 600 USD.

What are you smoking over there lol, if the ps5 is 600 then the XSX is 750 due to the much larger die, CU and SSD.

Come on people with the theatrics

 

[Bernkastel]

Of course, it is not Sony saying it this time, right ?... No way they could publish an enclosure or connector for your own SSD only?
I bet they will do at some point...

That 7 GB/s requirement will never be cheaper then XSX drives. The SSD's still need to be certified by Sony.
XSX drives on the other hand can even be used as memory cards that you can plug to a friends Xbox, and hence are portable. The fact that they contain the exact same drive as the one in the console inside them means they are mass produced too.

 

[Panajev2001a]

That 7 GB/s requirement will never be cheaper then XSX drives. The SSD's still need to be certified by Sony.
XSX drives on the other hand can even be used as memory cards that you can plug to a friends Xbox, and hence are portable. The fact that they contain the exact same drive as the one in the console inside them means they are mass produced too.

What 7 GB/s requirement? At this point you are trolling trying to create a false narrative lol. This keeps being repeated over and over as if it were true.

Sony will not manually verify every physical SSD produced, that is insane and you know it.

 

[Three]

Its like only 23.6% more expensive, not how much you make it out to be. It also has slightly better specifications(140 MB/s vs 120 MB/s).
In case Series X, since it is the same drive as XSX(unlike the previous example), its also being mass produced. Compare that with those 7 GB/s NVMe drives for PS5, they will cost like 300-400 USD. No way will they cost less than XSX drives.

And how much did I make it out to be? I said it's more expensive than open standard ones. Its 23% more you are paying for an identical drive just for the xbox branding. No it's not faster than a standard drive. Now imagine XB1 didn't support standard USB drives hence you needed to buy that green plastic drive. You make the comparison to xbox one drives where they are more expensive anyway but fail to realise that in the 360 case and the XSX you cant use a standard drive but need to pay for a proprietary one where much like the 360 they can charge whatever they like.

 

[Bernkastel]

What are you smoking over there lol, if the ps5 is 600 then the XSX is 750 due to the much larger die, CU and SSD.

Come on people with the theatrics

I just pointed out how much a 5.5 GB/s SSD costs. If you guys are projecting a 400 USD PS5 and 600 USD PS5 based on XSX specs, then I will also have to point out the cost of that SSD. No theatrics.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

What 7 GB/s requirement? At this point you are trolling trying to create a false narrative lol. This keeps being repeated over and over as if it were true.

Sony will not manually verify every physical SSD produced, that is insane and you know it.

The point is the SSD will have to match a certain size/speed requirement to fit/work in the PS5 whether Sony manually approves the drive or not

 

[Panajev2001a]

I just pointed out how much a 5.5 GB/s SSD costs. If you guys are projecting a 400 USD PS5 and 600 USD PS5 based on XSX specs, then I will also have to point out the cost of that SSD. No theatrics.

No just barely true misleading info meant to make one manufacturer look bad and one look better. The way people are twisting themselves to praise a proprietary (as far as we know) solution over an off the shelves based approach is amazing. I almost cannot wait until they were to drop cross platform gaming or restrict it severely and people praise it too somehow .

 

[Bernkastel]

What 7 GB/s requirement? At this point you are trolling trying to create a false narrative lol. This keeps being repeated over and over as if it were true.

Sony will not manually verify every physical SSD produced, that is insane and you know it.

I initially started with 5.5 GB/s myself, until some Sony experts corrected me to 7 GB/s. Even then its not cheap, a 4.5 GB/s NVMe SSD drive costs 240 USD.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I initially started with 5.5 GB/s myself, until some Sony experts corrected me to 7 GB/s. Even then its not cheap, a 4.5 GB/s NVMe SSD drive costs 240 USD.

What Sony expert? Sony just said that they see at the end of the year or early next to see mass produced SSD’s reaching over 7 GB/s. That drive costs $240 today, the console will be out for 6-7 years and has not launched yet.

Also, for all PS4 BC games a regular SSD (internal or external) or HDD (external) can be used. By the time this is a problem due to the number of titles released, the price of those drives will have already begun to fall considerably.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The point is the SSD will have to match a certain size/speed requirement to fit/work in the PS5 whether Sony manually approves the drive or not

So, you are acting as if those requirements were so stringent and weird that you may need a specific drive only few people in the world know how to assemble. PS3, PS4, PS4 Pro, and now PS5... instead of praising a commitment to off the shelves storage after the shit thrown at them for PSP and PS Vita, we are putting proprietary storage as the pro-consumer solution .

 

[SportsFan581]

Beside some hilariously badly setup tests using the PC based transfer tool, there are no public benchmarks of the Sony solution vs SD, so not sure how you can compute this 3.5x price premium (especially without comparing those cards against el cheapo “deals” for some no name SD card).


Still, why do you keep saying 7 GB/s needed for PS5 over and over?
This is intentionally misleading now. The minimum spec for the expanded storage SSD solution. It is 5.5 GB/s (or a little bit above that if the drive lacks the right priority levels granularity).

I don't know what you are on about, check "The Road to PS5" at around 20 minutes in. The current NVMe specification does not support the priority levels that the PSV drive offers, additional overhead is needed to allow the "off the shelf" drives to work.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

By the time this is a problem due to the number of titles released, the price of those drives will have already begun to fall considerably.

Probably, sure. Maybe not as considerably as we hope, though (outside of a flash holiday sale).

We’ll see. I’m sure it will all work out fine in the long run, regardless.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I don't know what you are on about, check "The Road to PS5" at around 20 minutes in. The current NVMe specification does not support the priority levels that the PSV drive offers, additional overhead is needed to allow the "off the shelf" drives to work.

There is no 1.5 GB/s of overhead, c’mon . Watch the presentation again about the comment on the current drives.

XSX has the faster GPU and CPU, no need to make shit up to try to paint the other console as a shitty box.

 

[SportsFan581]

There is no 1.5 GB/s of overhead, c’mon . Watch the presentation again about the comment on the current drives.

XSX has the faster GPU and CPU, no need to make shit up to try to paint the other console as a shitty box.

It will be good for PSV users if some 4.5-5GB/s drives do work. I don't know the amount of overhead involved with emulating priorities that aren't natively supported (does it cause extra reads?). If it's nothing like you say, that's great.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

Cerny said you can't just buy one off the shelf though it has to be the right height and length and the cooler has to be taken into consideration so that it fits in the system. It isn't as simple as just matching the speed and swapping it out.

Which frankly is a disaster waiting to happen. You're pushing PC hardware complexity into the console space and 'normies' are going to fuck up and buy the wrong stuff or not know exactly what to buy, or jam something that doesn't fit right into the system.

Microsoft thought of this and simplified the whole process.

 

[PropellerEar]

I think XSeX SSD contoroller solution is good and fast enough, but don't know how well they can ever use it as their games are meant to be released for PC too.

 

[SLB1904]

ps5 ssd shits all over it.

no its not.

yes it is.
its a generation apart

 

[Kacho]

I think XSeX SSD contoroller solution is good and fast enough, but don't know how well they can ever use it as their games are meant for PC.

Wouldn’t they just list SSD in the minimum requirements? I’m expecting that for most next gen games.

 

[PropellerEar]

Wouldn’t they just list SSD in the minimum requirements? I’m expecting that for most next gen games.

Yes but it's sounding like they have a custom SSD controller that has HW compression magic for xbox, and that doesn't exist on PC.

 

[SLB1904]

Ready at Dawn is a Sony second party studio. A real dev also said this

''i strongly suspect...''

yeah im convinced.

why so hard for some of understand the weakness and strengths from each console?

 

[SportsFan581]

Wouldn’t they just list SSD in the minimum requirements? I’m expecting that for most next gen games.

I imagine that even in those instances, efforts will be made to support SATA SSDs (which still amount to almost half the market), people with the SATA SSDs just aren't going to get as good of performance. I think it will be a long time before you see NVMe as a requirement.

 

[Kacho]

Yes but it's sounding like they have a custom SSD controller that has HW compression magic for xbox, and that doesn't exist on PC.

I doubt it leads to anything radical but it’s hard to speak definitively about anything until we have real world examples. At the end of the day PC with eclipse this stuff as we see every generation.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

Ready at Dawn is a Sony second party studio. A real dev also said this

RAD is a 3rd party studio. You should read thread carefully. Bunch of 3rd party devs also. Really Xbone fans are trying to spin everything and they are wrong about basically everthing.