Support NeoGAF

[Pimpbaa]

Pimpbaa, whats this "It's not an issue in console gaming".

Tell me this is not a mindset of modern day console gamers, please. Somebody tell me the masses with low expectations for there games & who are happy for 30fps games & sequel after sequel year in year out, have not taken over.

I'm a console gamer & I expect developers to programme to the metal, but maintain that high frame rate. 30ffps hurts.

If you're telling me before the next gen is here, developers are already taliking of 30fps & you're happy about that, something is wrong.

Oh & pug.....

God, you are equating 30fps with sequelitis? 30fps doesn't not affect NORMAL peoples enjoyment of games. 60fps merely makes the game look nicer, much like anti-aliasing or some other fancy effect. It is in no way a requirement for an enjoyable game.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Casuals usually don't even understand the concept of framerate within a video game.

true. My casual gaming friends have probably logged more hours into the GTA games on ps2 as i have, and not once have i ever heard them complain about the framerate. I could probably bring up something like "Hey doesn't the game seem kinda choppy to you?" and they'd probably respond with "What? WTF are you talking about choppy? Shut up im trying to play." Same with Goldeneye on n64 back in the day.

 

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

Yet another pointless 30fps vs 60fps bitch fest.


Someone drive a nail into my brain.

 

[COCKLES]

Well I'm not a programmer, but I'm sure the massive amount of polys in next gen games would make a major headache for programmers when it comes to the debugging stage if they find their would-be 60fps games stuttering and their trying to find the rendering sections that are causing it. Hence the 30fps safety net. Games are going to take ages to develop next-gen, I guess devs just don't want that hassle. Read the interview - it's not an Xbox thing, it's a next-gen thing.

 

[android]

Me disillusional Odnetnin, no.... explain how you see it.

You proved your junior member status with that one. Sony won because they had games not frames per second. Gran Turismo is a better game than Gotham. That is why it sold. Causal gamers couldn't give two shits about fps. Xenon won't suffer in sales because you can see a framerate difference. What will matter will be the games they can secure as exclusives. It's kinda how Sony did it this time around.

 

[doncale]

I guess I don't understand this guys complaint about jump in power.

PSone to PS2 was a pretty damn big leap. If Xbox 360 can accomplish the same type of jump over Xbox then I'd say this is more than adequate.

As long as Xbox 360 is comparable to PS3 that is fine. I just don't want the Xbox 360 to be a generation behind and it doesn't sound like this is the case.

yeah, I would agree

 

[Monk]

Actually he wasn't being vague. He made critical remarks about a system that hasn't even been annouced yet on a message board. That can't make his employer or MS happy if they find out.

I dont think that critical remarks is a big deal. It is releasing information that hasnt been revealed yet that would be a big deal. The 10MB of eDRAM hasnt been revealed yet right?

 

[Thompson]

Normal people, the man said normal people. On that level you win. But why should we the abnormal suffer for the ignorance or lack of understanding of the normal, on how certain things affect games from the consumers perspective. If we the abnormal demand higher frame rates or demand more original content etc, the sort of thing associated with the hardcore, elitist then everybody benifits... right Pimpbaa.

And its clear you guys don't get it - This gen is winding down, the battle has been won. the battle is for the next gen now. If MS had shown they had got their shit together & were rolling into the next gen with some steller work coming from their studios..... then the battle would be on.

Has things stand... Sony are still odds on to win.

C'mon fellas, work with me, smileys won't cut it.

 

[DopeyFish]

Has things stand... Sony are still odds on to win.

Baaaa!

Baaaa!

 

[Ghost]

god damn it's a frame rate thread again.


/me rolls out the wheelbarrow full of arguments

"COME GET 'EM"

 

[Rhindle]

Actually he wasn't being vague. He made critical remarks about a system that hasn't even been annouced yet on a message board. That can't make his employer or MS happy if they find out.

Well, this guy is two years out of college and apparently doesn't have a job according to his resume, so I doubt he has much to worry about.

Now all of you, GO FIND POSTS BY UNEMPLOYED EX-DEVELOPERS ON RANDOM MESSAGE BOARDS THAT HAPPEN TO FIT YOUR AGENDA, AND MAKE THREADS ABOUT THEM.

 

[android]

I dont think that critical remarks is a big deal. It is releasing information that hasnt been revealed yet that would be a big deal. The 10MB of eDRAM hasnt been revealed yet right?

Don't know.

 

[Thompson]

Android, what & my junior status.... are you touched or something.

Baaaa!

Baaaa!...... exactly, the masses are winning.

 

[Community Forum]

Yet another pointless 30fps vs 60fps bitch fest.


Someone drive a nail into my brain.

Where the hell are those fucking huge rolling eyes when you need them?

Jesus Christ you people are fucking retarded.

Oh give me a fucking break.

Fuck, this place sucks sometimes.

Yet another pointless Hitler Stole My Potato bitch.

 

[android]

Normal people, the man said normal people. On that level you win. But why should we the abnormal suffer for the ignorance or lack of understanding of the normal, on how certain things affect games from the consumers perspective. If we the abnormal demand higher frame rates or demand more original content etc, the sort of thing associated with the hardcore, elitist then everybody benifits... right Pimpbaa.

And its clear you guys don't get it - This gen is winding down, the battle has been won. the battle is for the next gen now. If MS had shown they had got their shit together & were rolling into the next gen with some steller work coming from their studios..... then the battle would be on.

Has things stand... Sony are still odds on to win.

C'mon fellas, work with me, smileys won't cut it.

I have a dream that someday games will be judged not on their quality, but on their frames per second.

 

[android]

Android, what & my junior status.... are you touched or something.

Baaaa!

Baaaa!...... exactly, the masses are winning.

This from the guy who says :

I think I can safely say without fear of ridicule the PS2 would have been long buried if MS got PGR2 & Halo2 running at a solid & detailed 60fps. In fact Sony's master stroke was to get GT4 running at 60fps at the cost of all other things. Forza could have been a nail in the coffin for Sony going into the next gen.

:lol

 

[Enigma]

I guess we can look forward to all the whores whining about 30fps games at E3. Awesome. I wish all the games ran at 60 just to shut everyone the fuck up.

That's really the pot calling the kettle black, however. For all the people who plead for 60fps (And I'm in that camp), all of us would take scaled back graphics in exchange for the 60. It's the fact that graphic whores buy games based on magazine ads and box screenshots that were stuck with this retarded backwardsness.

 

[doncale]

Frame rate wars......naaah, I don't believe you guys would argue 30fps v 60fps.

Pimpbaa, would you argue 30fps v 60fps?

60fps should be standard & it should be what developers are aiming for today & definatly next gen, everything else should be compromised to maintain that holy grail. I understand some games can work at lower frame rates. But they look so much better & your gaming pleasure is enhanced x10 because of high framerates.

Frankly any developer who thinks otherwise should be doing something else.

I tend to agree with this line of thinking. back in the 1990s, almost every single Namco and Sega arcade game was 60fps. from 1993's Ridge Racer and 1993-1994's Daytona USA forward... and maybe even Namco's Model 1 rival, the System 21, with its flat shaded polygon games were 60fps also (but not Sega's Model 1 games) like StarBlade, Air Combat, CyberSled. then once Sega's Model 2 powered Daytona joined the fray (Namco's System 22 Ridge Racer was first as far as texture mapping + 60fps) virtually all 3D arcade games from those companies were 60fps. even most Sega NAOMI games, and even the lower-end Namco System11, System12 (PS1 based) games were 60fps. sure there were a few exceptions, but 99% of those games were 60fps.

I don't care for most games that run at less than 60fps (there are exceptions like RE4). I think all fast action games should be 60fps. including FPS. in RPGs, and slower games, 30fps is fine for increased detail & complexity & effects. but no racing game should be less than 30fps (PGR2, Forza... tisk tisk)....... to me the difference between 30fps and 60fps is huge. imagine playing Tekken 2-5 or Virtua Fighter 2-4 at 30fps.

framerate does indeed effect the quality of a videogame. it is one of the unique areas where something that effects graphics also effects gameplay. framerate is directly tied to gameplay interaction. whereas some pretty FX or texture mapping, or pixel shading, is not really an impact on GAME PLAY. but framerates are.

 

[Pimpbaa]

Normal people, the man said normal people. On that level you win. But why should we the abnormal suffer for the ignorance or lack of understanding of the normal, on how certain things affect games from the consumers perspective. If we the abnormal demand higher frame rates or demand more original content etc, the sort of thing associated with the hardcore, elitist then everybody benifits... right Pimpbaa.

There you go again, equating something minor (30fps) to something truly important (original content). I'm about as hardcore as anyone on this board (playing video games for over 20 years). 60fps is not that damn important for most genres of games.

 

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

Yet another pointless Hitler Stole My Potato bitch.

Fuckedy fuck fuckin' fuck.

 

[PC Gaijin]

Btw, this is coming from this guy :
http://chiranjivi.tripod.com/MResume.html

Based on his resume it looks like the only job he's had after school was some kind of indie project using Torque. Wonder where he's working now to be able to divulge details on X2?

BTW, I've never seen anyone put their anime fansub activities in a resume :lol.

 

[Community Forum]

Fuckedy fuck fuckin' fuck.

:lol

 

[Thompson]

I too have a dream too, android, that one day devlopers will learn their trade & produce complete games within the spec of their chosen hardware, pushing it to the limit but doing it well. I have a dream that games will Not be undertested buggy, unstable. But games that feel & look & play like the finsihed article.

Like I said, you don't care for frame rates, fine. You won't suffer in anyway sense or form if those that do are heard & developers take note. Why you argue from that stance makes no sense to me.

 

[VALIS]

Games are going to take ages to develop next-gen, I guess devs just don't want that hassle. Read the interview - it's not an Xbox thing, it's a next-gen thing.

Whaddya mean, "read?" How are people supposed to clog up every video game message board on the planet with their kneejerk fanboy bullshit if they're supposed to, as you say, "read" an article and extrapolate meaning from it? You've got some nerve.

 

[doncale]

There is a game that is still in my PS2 collection today, solely because of its gorgeous 60-FPSdness! This game is Dropship... early 2002 release. This game would be NOTHING without its high framerate...

man, I gotta get Dropship. not just because of its highframerate, because, I've been meaning to get that game for awhile now.

 

[android]

I too have a dream too, android, that one day devlopers will learn their trade & produce complete games within the spec of their chosen hardware, pushing it to the limit but doing it well. I have a dream that games will Not be undertested buggy, unstable. But games that feel & look & play like the finsihed article.

Like I said, you don't care for frame rates, fine. You won't suffer in anyway sense or form if those that do are heard & developers take note. Why you argue from that stance makes no sense to me.

You better get on that then. Hurry the developers need you. I'd rather they spend the time and get the game to thirty frames a second and then spend the time writing a worthwhile story or programming a decent camera or AI. I care more about the game than the graphics or how fast they are running at. You may think they are magical conjurers, but I realize there are time and budget restraints in the game industry. fps is the last thing I care about. As long as they maintain it at constant of around 30 a second, I'm happy.

 

[doncale]

Ok, since I don't think anyone in here besides dark10x has actually played a PC FPS (say Quake 3) at 30, then 60 and > 100 FPS (continuos graphic card upgrades) and thus CAN'T tell the difference between 30 and more FPS I'll give you a better example console only peeps:


Zelda Wind Waker and Zelda: OoT - Master Quest on the GameCube.
The difference in fluidity, in FPS is staggering, like night and day.

More FPS is always better, people. In every genre. There's no other way around it.

Reminder: I can live with low FPS games on consoles, even with stuttering (Banjos and Zeldas on N64 are a prime example). But I'd rather not.

yeah agreed. especially with the stuff in bold

Nintendo fans that say framerates dont matter, or they cant see the difference, they should play Zelda OoT and MM (~20 fps) on Nintendo64 or Gamecube, and then watch the Spaceworld 2000 Gamecube Zelda demo (60fps) and also the E3 2004 new GC Zelda footage (~30fps).


btw back on topic, I was really hoping that SEGA & Monolith's Condemned for Xbox2 would be 60fps. because it certainly doesn't look all that impressive for a nextgen game if its only ~30fps. It doesnt look like it could completely blow RE4 out of the water, even though Condemned looks somewhat better (textures)

 

[Odnetnin]

Based on his resume it looks like the only job he's had after school was some kind of indie project using Torque. Wonder where he's working now to be able to divulge details on X2?

BTW, I've never seen anyone put their anime fansub activities in a resume :lol.

why are you guys knocking his CV. People only update their cv while they're looking for their next job. Who knows how long he's been working on Xenon or 360. I'd take it that he has been employed for a while now if he posted what he did. Its actually not that bad. I've seen dogs when my place advertised for a graphic designer. I still have some of the samples that I look at and laugh to this day. Talk about delusion people out there.

 

[VALIS]

There you go again, equating something minor (30fps) to something truly important (original content). I'm about as hardcore as anyone on this board (playing video games for over 20 years). 60fps is not that damn important for most genres of games.

You beat me to it. I was just going to say myself, I've been playing games since the mid-70's, I've probably played (and own) 80+% of every console game ever released in North America, blah blah blah, and I could give a rat's dick about 60fps. Games run smoothly or they don't, and it's just one element overall in enjoying a game.

 

[Odnetnin]

yeah agreed. especially with the stuff in bold

Nintendo fans that say framerates dont matter, or they cant see the difference, they should play Zelda OoT and MM (~20 fps) on Nintendo64 or Gamecube, and then watch the Spaceworld 2000 Gamecube Zelda demo (60fps) and also the E3 2004 new GC Zelda footage (~30fps).


btw back on topic, I was really hoping that SEGA & Monolith's Condemned for Xbox2 would be 60fps. because it certainly doesn't look all that impressive for a nextgen game if its only ~30fps. It doesnt look like it could completely blow RE4 out of the water, even though Condemned looks somewhat better (textures)

HELLO!? We're not debating 30fps/60fps. We're discussing the comment that early next gen, devs will stick with 30fps. That you, yourself posted. WE KNOW THAT MORE FRAMES PER SECOND IS GOOD. But locking it @ 30 as a first pass with great looking visuals is more than acceptable for the first batch of X2/PS3/NR games. They'd need to too, to get to grips with hardware and polish.

I mean how long did it take for this gen consoles to go from PS2(first gen) to FFX and MGS3?!

 

[Thompson]

Nice post doncale, bang on the money too.

No one loses if we demand high frame rates, everyone benifits, demand it as standard from all developers. These people make no sense to me.

20years you say Pimpbaa, refer to doncale post, 20years.... don't this place have rolleyes.

 

[Enigma]

I just thought of something: If those Godfather screens are truly what it's gonna look like and it's running at 30fps, yikes!

At least if that's the case, however, I can't blame EA for sacrificing framerate for detail.

 

[Borys]

HELLO!? We're not debating 30fps/60fps. We're discussing the comment that early next gen, devs will stick with 30fps. That you, yourself posted. WE KNOW THAT MORE FRAMES PER SECOND IS GOOD. But locking it @ 30 as a first pass with great looking visuals is more than acceptable for the first batch of X2/PS3/NR games. They'd need to too, to get to grips with hardware and polish.

I mean how long did it take for this gen consoles to go from PS2(first gen) to FFX and MGS3?!

Finally, agreed.
I don't think there will ever be a console that has all games locked @ 60 fps.
It will always come down to the choice of fluid, fast animation with simplified graphics or a not-so fluid and fast animation but with better stuff on screen. Always has, always will.

Devs are the ones deciding.

 

[LakeEarth]

The funny thing about this whole 30 vs 60 fps discussion is that when this generation was starting up (and before games started to be shown) everyone said that it would be the end of bad framerates. Here we are, talking about the following generation, and STILL we aren't getting 60fps consistantly.

Frankly I don't really care. Sure 60fps is great, but 30 ain't that bad. I'd rather have a stunning game at 30fps then a bland one at 60.

 

[CrimsonSkies]

"30 fps < 60 fps < 90 fps et cetera

Ask ANY PC gamer."

You do know a monitor can actual display all the frames a graphics card throws at it and a normal TV can't right? Just a little bit different display capability there. Not that I'm defending 30 FPS in games.

 

[doncale]

I just thought of something: If those Godfather screens are truly what it's gonna look like and it's running at 30fps, yikes!

At least if that's the case, however, I can't blame EA for sacrificing framerate for detail.

those Godfather screens and videos, are from Playstation2, PC and original Xbox.

not nextgen. not Xbox2 or PS3.

 

[Thompson]

You better get on that then. Hurry the developers need you. I'd rather they spend the time and get the game to thirty frames a second and then spend the time writing a worthwhile story or programming a decent camera or AI. I care more about the game than the graphics or how fast they are running at. You may think they are magical conjurers, but I realize there are time and budget restraints in the game industry. fps is the last thing I care about. As long as they maintain it at constant of around 30 a second, I'm happy.

I don't know what you're arguing about android. If thats your mindset you may as well tie a blanket around your neck & get a small stick & go play in some ...er.... jello. I mean who cares.

I mean why don't you think they can do all that to budget & ensure 60fps, what are you arguing

 

[Pimpbaa]

Nice post doncale, bang on the money too.

No one loses if we demand high frame rates, everyone benifits, demand it as standard from all developers. These people make no sense to me.

20years you say Pimpbaa, refer to doncale post, 20years.... don't this place have rolleyes.

Yeah 20 years. I was playing 3d games on a pc many years ago, that were not hardware accelerated, and weren't even textured. The games were lucky enough to reach mid 20's when it came to framerates. It sure as hell didn't hindered my enjoyment of such games. And many years later on the SNES, the shitty framerate of starfox didn't hamper my enjoyment of that game either. In the ps1 days, I prefered Soul Blade to any other ps1 fighter that ran at 60fps. 60fps IS a good thing, but what I'm saying and some others are saying is that it is noth necessary for most to enjoy a game. If 30fps prevents someone from enjoying a game, then they are far too anal.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Why can't we just simplify this down to: games with a high sample rate of feedback play better at 60fps and games that don't are fine at 30?

I do think however that in some cases, 30fps looks "better" to some people because 30fps engages tricks of the senses - "natural" motion blur for some folks, which looks "smoother". Also, we've become very used to movies and television showing us images at 24 - 30 frames per second. I have a suspicion that if movies had always run at 60 frames per second, a lot more people would see something that came along and ran at less as visibly choppy.

I will say that in the next gen, I DO want to see developers get their act together and DECIDE what frame rate they want to shoot for. Enough of terrible bouncing frame rates, enough of throwing together a huge free-roaming city for your GTA-clone that you damn well KNOW will chug at 15fps every time the camera turns a friggin' corner. Lock your game at 30 or 60 fps, whatever is best for it, and actually balance your engine correctly.

 

[Enigma]

those Godfather screens and videos, are from Playstation2, PC and original Xbox.

not nextgen. not Xbox2 or PS3.

Sorry. I missed it when it was proven that EGM was talking out their ass when they stated that in the article.

 

[j^aws]

why are you guys knocking his CV. People only update their cv while they're looking for their next job. Who knows how long he's been working on Xenon or 360. I'd take it that he has been employed for a while now if he posted what he did. Its actually not that bad. I've seen dogs when my place advertised for a graphic designer. I still have some of the samples that I look at and laugh to this day. Talk about delusion people out there.

Agreed. There are some retarded people out here knocking a strangers CV and post from another forum, when that person isn't here to defend themselves. And the original poster has to take some responsibility here. Are we discussing the individual or the content of his post? <shakes head>

 

[Mike Works]

There is a game that is still in my PS2 collection today, solely because of its gorgeous 60-FPSdness! This game is Dropship... early 2002 release. This game would be NOTHING without its high framerate...

For a great example from last-gen... there was this PSOne game called Turbo Prop Racing... OMG... 60 FPS goodness. Again, it wouldn't be the game it is without the framerate.

Okay, I don't really know where I'm going with this, other than to say 60 FPS rocks the house, and I think its more important than texture work.

How well did those games sell?

 

[eso76]

Funny, i was just playing Tekken 5 today and i decided to take a look at the good old tekken 1.2.3. My thoughts were something like "holy shit, if the jump between this and next gen is anything like past-current gen, then we probably still have no idea what we're going to see in a couple years time".

PS1

PS2

PS1

PS2

PS!

PS2

I don't know about you guys, but i'd be much more than happy if it's true that
xbox : x = ps1 : ps2

 

[android]

How well did those games sell?

Amen

 

[Borys]

Agreed. There are some retarded people out here knocking a strangers CV and post from another forum, when that person isn't here to defend themselves. And the original poster has to take some responsibility here. Are we discussing the individual or the content of his post? <shakes head>

And guess who knocks him?
Xbots.

Here we have another Xbox2 myth debunked ("all games run @ 60 FPS") and a fine example of damage control done by Xbots.

Disgusting.

 

[Amir0x]

Frame rates are very important, I think I can safely say without fear of ridicule the PS2 would have been long buried if MS got PGR2 & Halo2 running at a solid & detailed 60fps. In fact Sony's master stroke was to get GT4 running at 60fps at the cost of all other things. Forza could have been a nail in the coffin for Sony going into the next gen.

MS dropped the ball.....

If that's your idea of something you can safely say, I don't want to know what your idea of something you shouldn't say because it's dangerous.

Maybe something like:

"If Xbox had games running at 120fps I can say... dangerously I might add... that all gamers around the world would be giving blowjobs to Bill Gates!"

But seriously, I'm in awe. The award for most delusional statement ever goes to...

 

[Virgin Wii]

If that's your idea of something you can safely say, I don't want to know what your idea of something you shouldn't say because it's dangerous.

Maybe something like:



But seriously, I'm in awe. The award for most delusional statement ever goes to...

We agree!

 

[android]

Me too :lol

 

[doncale]

eso76:

this image

I believe is System12 Tekken 3. well, PS2 emulating System12. not PS1. but not like it makes a difference. System12 was only like 50% (1 1/2) stronger than PS1.

but anyways, I do agree with your sentiments

 

[VALIS]

And guess who knocks him?
Xbots.

Here we have another Xbox2 myth debunked ("all games run @ 60 FPS") and a fine example of damage control done by Xbots.

Disgusting.

How goes the war with the imaginary pudding monsters who live in your closet? Keep the faith! Don't give in!