Xbox2 hardware: good, yet disappointing at the same time [from a developer]
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Pedigree Chum
Banned
:lol
segasonic said:
I know someone was gonna chime in with that... but until I start watching half frames of TV, the framerate for NTSC broadcasts will be 29.97fps and that dude is wrong.
EDIT: I dont mean to be flippant in that statement. I understand that 60fps games running on an interlaced TV are doing the exact same thing as a regular broadcast.... however, if I am not mistaken, some games can run 60fps in progressive. I dont have an HDtv to confirm or deny this statement, and take it as pure speculation.
Not to mention irrelevant, because the only thing governing broadcast fps is the NTSC spec and camera speed, with camera speed being capable of much more than the ntsc spec. Games are an entirely different beast.
tetsuoxb, what does all you said actually mean.
High sales mean very little at this time, regards the next gen of consoles. The games mean very little at this time with regard console sales. How the hardware performs with relation to its software is what its all about now. How good the games look & move are an indicator & how the developer/manufactorer is likely to perform next gen.
How many people will consider buying a system months away from redundancy. You understand what this thread is really about. Its not frame rate, its not sales, its the next gen of consoles & the new console war.
Another one, who cares?. What exactly are you arguing?
Oh and don't bother to correct me, If you have something to add to the thread thats on topic then add it. if you want to correct grammer become a teacher & get paid for it. Only your mother would be impressed by your grasp of grammer, no one else cares, a little free advise.
I still don't know what these "30fps" is fine people are actually arguing. Android, like I said 60fps should be the goal for all games. Any developer who thinks otherwise should be doing something else. And any dev-co who plans badly beyond the capabilty of the hardware or uses their resources unefficently deserves no sympathy. They get none in any other bizniz.
I honestly don't know what you're defending.
High sales mean very little at this time, regards the next gen of consoles. The games mean very little at this time with regard console sales. How the hardware performs with relation to its software is what its all about now. How good the games look & move are an indicator & how the developer/manufactorer is likely to perform next gen.
How many people will consider buying a system months away from redundancy. You understand what this thread is really about. Its not frame rate, its not sales, its the next gen of consoles & the new console war.
Another one, who cares?. What exactly are you arguing?
Oh and don't bother to correct me, If you have something to add to the thread thats on topic then add it. if you want to correct grammer become a teacher & get paid for it. Only your mother would be impressed by your grasp of grammer, no one else cares, a little free advise.
I still don't know what these "30fps" is fine people are actually arguing. Android, like I said 60fps should be the goal for all games. Any developer who thinks otherwise should be doing something else. And any dev-co who plans badly beyond the capabilty of the hardware or uses their resources unefficently deserves no sympathy. They get none in any other bizniz.
I honestly don't know what you're defending.
Pedigree Chum
Banned
If the jump is like PS1->PS2 I'll be more than happy. I'm sure the XBox2 will be plenty powerful, i guess the dissapointment is that it's not mindblowingly powerful for a system launch this year (but hey, they're launch before Sony, can't expect Xbox1-like advancements over the competition). It looks like PS3 will be more powerful, but Sony better make it easy to dev for or else it'll make no difference when it comes down to real world-performance (for the majority of games).
I personally hope that the early Xbox2 launch is successful for MS, I want to see some real competiton in in north america in the console space.
I personally hope that the early Xbox2 launch is successful for MS, I want to see some real competiton in in north america in the console space.
Thompson said:
Well, that removes any doubt. You are indeed an idiot. I like how you got mad and your spelling went to shit.
How the games look and move is not an indicator of how the games play, which is the true test of who will succeed next gen.
Actually I am an English teacher in Japan. I also translate and edit things for fun. So I do care, my employer cares, my students care, people who read my translations care. Furthermore, I do get paid for it, and yes, my mother is quite proud of my grasp of grammar. pwned yourself there buddy.
We are arguing two things.
1) That 60fps is an unreal goal for all situations for a number of reasons. Your engine has to handle all the visual detail at a much higher speed, which is difficult to implement. A console has limitations based upon graphical features implemented, and the next-gen is not a pancea that lifts these. If you want bump maps, specular maps, complex shaders, high resolution textures, high poly models, with trilinear anisotropic filtering, AND antialiasing....you are either God, John Carmack, or in your case a moron, if you think it is going to happen.
2) You are an idiot.
EDIT: I know you are an idiot troll.... but your part about the "bizniz" and "unefficent" (inefficient) developers shows that you have no respect or understanding of how games are made, you have no knowledge of programming, and you need to go to bed or ign before mom finds out you have been playing with the big boys.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
erm, am i going mad?
isn't 30fps/60fps a developer decission not something dictated by hardware?
If the PS3 and Xbox 2 can both handle 100,000,000 polys per sec at 60fps, i can guarantee that some devs will go "hold on guys, if we slice that to 30fps, and give ourselves twice the time to render, we can maybe stick in even more polys! or more lighting! or ..."
I personally think that art and execution are going to be more important this time around, as that's all that's going to seperate the machines.
isn't 30fps/60fps a developer decission not something dictated by hardware?
If the PS3 and Xbox 2 can both handle 100,000,000 polys per sec at 60fps, i can guarantee that some devs will go "hold on guys, if we slice that to 30fps, and give ourselves twice the time to render, we can maybe stick in even more polys! or more lighting! or ..."
I personally think that art and execution are going to be more important this time around, as that's all that's going to seperate the machines.
Again what are you arguing.....
Who cares how the games play, we are talking about the potential of next gen machines. Thats whats setting the mindsets now, how the games look & move, how the Sony's & MS games are performing today. One or two games will be system sellers but for those early adapters its all about what games are doing now. Potential.
You're an english teacher in japan... so you carry your job to a games forum & believe it gives you power & the care your employer, students etc show will translate to the forum members. :lol
No one cares, you sound like a wanker, this is a global board. Learn to read around spelling errors & bad grammer. The idiot is sitting in your chair.
Oh, how & why is 60fps an unreal goal if developers work to spec?
You call me an idiot, is it o.k to tell someone to go fuck themself on this forum. This prick really needs to go do so. Anyone would think I owe him money, he's an english teacher in japan for christ sake.
Who cares how the games play, we are talking about the potential of next gen machines. Thats whats setting the mindsets now, how the games look & move, how the Sony's & MS games are performing today. One or two games will be system sellers but for those early adapters its all about what games are doing now. Potential.
You're an english teacher in japan... so you carry your job to a games forum & believe it gives you power & the care your employer, students etc show will translate to the forum members. :lol
No one cares, you sound like a wanker, this is a global board. Learn to read around spelling errors & bad grammer. The idiot is sitting in your chair.
Oh, how & why is 60fps an unreal goal if developers work to spec?
You call me an idiot, is it o.k to tell someone to go fuck themself on this forum. This prick really needs to go do so. Anyone would think I owe him money, he's an english teacher in japan for christ sake.
Thompson said:
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
That is right boys and girls... who cares how the games play.
Dude, you told me to get a job teaching English if I wanted to correct someone's "grammer"... it just so happens I already did. You got what you wanted.
Virgin Wii
Banned
I'm going to give Thompson the benefit of the doubt and assume English is his 2nd language.
RE4 vs. SH4, I'm going to assume you don't get out much.
I mean why concern yourself with such things, seriously. I'm reading you guys & you're saying nothing.
The question I asked is "how & why is 60fps an unreal goal if developers work to spec?"
Amongst other stuff, this I seperated & all I'm getting is "Urghh!!...he spelt adopter wrong"
What is this some strange GA thing, what?. Read the bad english, read around the mistakes. You consider yourself bright, then prove it. Don't get hung up on a lettter out of place or a word spelt incorrectly or a missing coma.
Or is that too hard some of you.
I mean why concern yourself with such things, seriously. I'm reading you guys & you're saying nothing.
The question I asked is "how & why is 60fps an unreal goal if developers work to spec?"
Amongst other stuff, this I seperated & all I'm getting is "Urghh!!...he spelt adopter wrong"
What is this some strange GA thing, what?. Read the bad english, read around the mistakes. You consider yourself bright, then prove it. Don't get hung up on a lettter out of place or a word spelt incorrectly or a missing coma.
Or is that too hard some of you.
Hey don't limit this to the two of us. Here is a quick list of people who read your highly thought out posts and let out a resounding What the Fuck?
Odenetnin
soundwave05
Pimpbaa
Amir0x
RE4 VS SH4
Dopeyfish
Wipeout364
pj325is
JoatesDogg187
Damn whoever you are, I needed a good laugh today. Thanks
Edit:
damn man what did RE4 vs SH4 do to you. :lol
Thompson said:
Hmm... You really are an idiot. Not that it needs to be, or hasnt already been brought up in this thread countless times. So let me get this straight. Fuck game play, AI, physics, etc. and just worry about how the game looks and make sure it runs at a smooth 60fps. Why dont they just release everything as FMV and then everyone will buy the system am i right? Sadly to you I think you may agree.
So what... none of those have actually given a good why. They & you have argued some stupid argument ref 30fps on next gen machines. Giving no good reason why its un reasonable for developers to work to spec & produce 60fps game as standard.
These people laugh at me, they laugh at me?... you seriously think a mod tagging my name is impressive?
No its cowardly, they can remove it or they can give me the right to add a tag to thier name & see how they deal with it. Who'd a thunk GA would come to this.
So what you saying android, are you gonna break the catolog of stupidity & say why its silly to expect developers to work to spec & produce all games at 60fps next gen. Or even discuss next gen & the games, the way they perform on the wind down of this gen & the impact that will have on the mindset of consumers when deciding which platform to go with.
These people laugh at me, they laugh at me?... you seriously think a mod tagging my name is impressive?
No its cowardly, they can remove it or they can give me the right to add a tag to thier name & see how they deal with it. Who'd a thunk GA would come to this.
So what you saying android, are you gonna break the catolog of stupidity & say why its silly to expect developers to work to spec & produce all games at 60fps next gen. Or even discuss next gen & the games, the way they perform on the wind down of this gen & the impact that will have on the mindset of consumers when deciding which platform to go with.
tetsuoxb said:
Fields and frames are basically the same thing. 60fields per second is what 60fps games have always been. There`s a world of difference between 30fps and 60 interlaced frames, games or TV broadcasts.
60fps progressive havent happened until now, but it is no smoother really. Just a little better image.
Ok, you want reasons. Why dont we start with the fact that devs are putting in far more bells and whistles next gen. Also whats wrong with it locked at 30. Yes 30 sucks when you have any slowdown at all but if they can legitamently lock it at 30 I think it will be fine. Altough racing and fighting should definetly be 60. The others are not needed. Perhaps you would be happy with current gen graphics and just beef up all the frame rates. But guess what youd probably have better luck actually getting that tag removed than anyone agreeing with you on that.
EDIT:
:lol Are you being serious? You are seriously a dumbass. How can you just refer to the first post without taking all of the things others and I have pointed out. Such as the mechanics of the game, dumbass. There are limiting factors when talking about comparison of framerate to graphics. The only thing shocking in this thread is your repeated ignorance.
EDIT:
Thompson said:
:lol Are you being serious? You are seriously a dumbass. How can you just refer to the first post without taking all of the things others and I have pointed out. Such as the mechanics of the game, dumbass. There are limiting factors when talking about comparison of framerate to graphics. The only thing shocking in this thread is your repeated ignorance.
Virgin Wii
Banned
Thompson said:
I wasn't being sarcastic; that was an honest attempt to rationalize your horrible English skills, and I thought it probable given your comments on GAF being a global community. From your reaction, I was wrong. *shrug*
My English isn't perfect, and that goes for most posters. Like the mole on your girlfriend's otherwise beautiful face, flaws can often be ignored. But sometimes a woman comes along whose face is so ugly and marred that you can't help but be distracted by it; she could be telling you something - important even - but you aren't listening because damn that face is ugly, and shock doesn't permit thoughts of anything else. Well, that woman is you, except I doubt you have anything important to say. I mean, look...
How can you not feel shame after reading this? Please tell me you're in grade school.
j^aws
Member
Thompson said:
Well, here's some reasons why and I'll just quote myself from the first page 'cause at this rate you may get your tag upgraded to '2 frames per second and pushing it' etc...
j^aws said:It should be obvious why devs are aiming for 30fps if they can get away with it. These are first generation games on next gen hardware. Devs are not that familiar with the hardware yet.
In order to give that next gen visual feel over current gen optimised games, they are gonna aim for as much eye candy as possible. Unless 60fps is critical for first gen games they will avoid it and go for the graphics whores! And you biatches are all closet whores
JoatesDogg187 o.k.
But now you mention it, what would be wrong with todays graphics running at a solid 60fps. Doom3 on Xbox at a rock solid 60fps would that be so bad. My point is while its all good & well wanting to stuff everything including the kitchen sink into a game it adds nothing to the overall gaming experience if it moves like shit.
I say work to spec, I say improve, refine & streamline your game engines. I say make 60fps standard for all games next gen. I say to argue against that, well gamers do themselves no favours. Make the devlopers understand this.
Thast all.
But now you mention it, what would be wrong with todays graphics running at a solid 60fps. Doom3 on Xbox at a rock solid 60fps would that be so bad. My point is while its all good & well wanting to stuff everything including the kitchen sink into a game it adds nothing to the overall gaming experience if it moves like shit.
I say work to spec, I say improve, refine & streamline your game engines. I say make 60fps standard for all games next gen. I say to argue against that, well gamers do themselves no favours. Make the devlopers understand this.
Thast all.
Bizarro Sun Yat-sen
Banned
I understand there's a tradeoff between framerate and detail, but how useful is that extra capacity for detail really? It seems to me that next generation the biggest limiting factor for most developers won't be anything in the hardware, but rather money and time. What's the point of cutting the framerate in half to double the level of detail if you don't really have the resources to make those doubly elaborate graphics anyway? Wouldn't a higher framerate be more appealing to many developers just because it's a graphic enhancement that can be employed without a lot of extra work on content?
RE4 vs. SH4, I was not being sarcastic.
I swear to god you people read like you've never spoken to anybody. How people can kick up such a fuss about how something is written on a forum is mind numbing.
You quote me, you are telling me thats impossible to understand & makes no sense, you need it carefully typed for you & spell checked?
How long have these people been knocking around on forums......
With ref the person who gave me the tag...... remove it.
I swear to god you people read like you've never spoken to anybody. How people can kick up such a fuss about how something is written on a forum is mind numbing.
You quote me, you are telling me thats impossible to understand & makes no sense, you need it carefully typed for you & spell checked?
How long have these people been knocking around on forums......
With ref the person who gave me the tag...... remove it.
Virgin Wii
Banned
Thompson said:
Spell check will not save you, believe me.
OK apparently you people dont realize that were not dealing with current gen games on next gen consoles or that next gen games are going to be more advanced than current gen games. Also as j^aws said. This is the first batch of games this gen. Do you really think they've got a good grasp on the new techniques and engines already?
In actual fact, they aren't. Whilst a (nominally) 30 fps game is indeed displayed in almost the same way that a regular broadcast is, a 60 fps game is displayed differently: a frame is rendered by the console and it is displayed by the interlaced TV as a 640 x 240 field in an odd/even configuration, then the next frame is (discretely) rendered and displayed in the complementary even/odd configuration. The point is, that even on an interlaced TV, you're getting 60 discrete images per second.tetsuoxb said:
Duckhuntdog
Member
30 fps vs 60 fps? How about asking for CONSISTANT FPS. I will take a rock solid 30 FPS all the time over a sometimes 60, then 55, then 40, then 50, then 60, then 50 FPS.
Im begining to think that there are some of these people will never change their viewpoints, oh man i actually think im too late. Face it Thompson, we have given so many point as to why you and your views are idiotic, yet you refuse to see it. And furthermore you keep saying the same damn thing over again "give some good reasons " "why cant all my games be 60fps" " why am i such an ass" etc . And guess what weve sadly answered these questions repeatedly. Start reading our posts.
Virgin Wii
Banned
Thompson said:oh, RE4 vs. SH4 getting out more will help you...
Virgin Wii
Banned
lol
JoatesDogg187.... just when I thought this was settling down into a reasonable chat.
The reasons you say you give are irrelavent, I repeat myself because I am correct. What hurts is if developers did produce all games at 60fps you & these others would not lose out. I don't know why you defend this 30fps thing & why you'd agree with it.
And I still can't work out what respect as to do with anything ether
But I must leave now.... I hope this improves, you lot suck at taking the piss out of someone & your debate ain't worth shit.
The reasons you say you give are irrelavent, I repeat myself because I am correct. What hurts is if developers did produce all games at 60fps you & these others would not lose out. I don't know why you defend this 30fps thing & why you'd agree with it.
And I still can't work out what respect as to do with anything ether
But I must leave now.... I hope this improves, you lot suck at taking the piss out of someone & your debate ain't worth shit.
Mrbob said:
I hear you loud and clear.
sigh!probably these are lazy developers. we will see plenty of 60fps games in the coming generation. I'm sure Namco will have a few, within the first year, and at least one at launch.
I say screw the extra detail, effects and whatever would cause games to not run at 60fps. if Sega and Namco could get 60fps on almost all of their Model 2, System 22|23, Model 3, Super System 22|23, System 11|12, NAOMI 1|2 games , then I think almost all games from *top tier* developers should be 60fps also. of course, EA is not top tier, they're on the 2nd rung, talent wise IMO, but all the *highly* talented teams (some of Konami's, Tecmo's Team Ninja) and companies should just aim for 60fps.
Saying that it is too hard to make games 60fps is BS. because its also hard to make games run at 30fps. it is just plain hard to make games, at all.
Developers just need to limit themselves and have discipline, as far as not going overboard with detail, effects, and useless shit. with the power of the new consoles, there is no reason not to get 60fps.oh and *if* it is true that 30FPS is a target for many developers making next-gen games, does anyone ACTUALLY think that they will ALWAYS be hitting a constant, solid 30fps all the time? not until hell freezes over 500 trillion times
Thompson said:
What you fail to see is that we DO lose out. Making a game 60fps isn't something that just happens, they have to work at it. Which means the game will take longer to make, or have other features cut.
And to REASONABLE PEOPLE, it's NOT WORTH IT, for MOST GENRES
You say you'd like doom3 xbox at a rock solid 60 fps. So would I, but I would also like it to come out this year and have real time lighting. Would you sacrifice either of those things just to get the framerate higher?
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