Khalifa Jayy
Banned
Don't something like 90% of vegetarians come back?
They always come back for more meat.
They always come back for more meat.
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Yahoo: Why Some Vegetarians Start Craving Meat
- Thread starter Tripon
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John Kowalski
Banned
too real for dennis kun
being vegetarian isn't not liking meat, it's choosing to not eat it regardless of how attractive it might be
How come no one thinks of the innocent plants we're eating??
We need the Lorax... Someone to speak for the trees and shit.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Seafood, beef and most (all?) meat in general is digestible if raw. Just because modern humans don't eat raw meat often doesn't mean it's inedible. Plus man's biggest advantages over most animals, tool building and critical thinking, are advantageous for hunting. We're also really good at stalking and endurance. We also have the teeth for ripping and tearing flesh to eat it and our bodies require a good amount of protein.
This is also ignoring the good amount of vegetables we can't eat unless they're cooked (try eating a raw potato). And how humans are terrible at a simple thing like drinking water without getting ill. Honestly, uncooked chicken is not much more dangerous than raw water.
We can't even drink most water without becoming extremely ill. A lot of our food born illnesses are also a product of mass production.
NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
Sooner or later, soylent green will be invented.
entremet
Member
Early human and human ancestor didn't gorge on raw muscle meat. They ate the squishy organs and marrow.
Muscle meat is too tough to eat raw. Especially since these were wild animals, not domesticated animals that couldn't run for shit.
Incidentally, organs and marrow have tons of more nutrition than muscle meat.
Raven Prime
Member
Even if plants would be a legitimate concern, you do realize that the animals killed for human consumption themselves also feed on plants? A strictly plant-based diet is highly efficient compared to other diets, because it takes far less resources and therefore has a far lesser impact on the environment.
However I can't imagine anyone in his/her right mind actually thinks that the suffering of animals can compare to the death of plants that show no indication of being capable of suffering. But if one does care for the 'deaths' of plants, again a strictly plant-based diet will greatly reduce the amount of plants 'killed'.
That's not a fact, only an assumption. There is reason to think our brains got a lot bigger when we started cooking our foods, making it a lot easier to consume large amounts of starchy plants and tubers.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
Vegetarian threads on GAF always bring out the most pleasant aspects of some of the posters here.
Sorry, but what are you actually going on about here? As to your latter point, plenty of people can be vegan or vegetarian without needing additional supplements.
The same theory has been applied to certain kinds of berries and magic mushrooms.
entremet
Member
He's talking about evolution.
We developed cooking as early "humans" once we figured out fire. Not only did the meat taste better, but it also killed off the bad stuff on raw meat.
This allowed our brains to flourish incredibly as our stomach didnt have to have massive energy pushed towards fighting bacteria. Even with this, there are certain foods we can eat raw, fish comes to mind, as plenty of people eat sushi which contains raw meat. People also eat raw beef and other meats that arent that harmful to us.
But this is all irrelevant, Omnivores doesnt mean that we only eat bugs and plants, omnivore means we eat literally everything. There's nothing on this green planet that we havent tried to eat at some point, and really, if you wanna be a vegan or a vegetarian, then you can because Humans can survive off that diet cause they can generally survive off any diet. I wouldnt consider Veganism or Vegetarianism "healthy", but at the same time, I wouldnt consider eating hamburgers all the time "healthy" either. Human diets generally dont have to be "healthy" to survive for long periods of time.
We don't technically need to cook many of our meats, we've just become accustomed to it and its afforded us safety from a lot of bacteria that might come of not properly cleaning our cutting tools.
But if the conditions are right, we can eat raw meat. I just prefer not to.
We can eat most things naturally.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I'd recommend these books to anyone who is a vegetarian or considering becoming one:
Funny and light hearted:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1849541396/?tag=neogaf0e-20
More serious and in depth:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1604860804/?tag=neogaf0e-20
I'm sure it will anger some folks, but I hope others will find it educational or at least containing information worth considering.
No true Scotsman.
Funny and light hearted:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1849541396/?tag=neogaf0e-20
More serious and in depth:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1604860804/?tag=neogaf0e-20
I'm sure it will anger some folks, but I hope others will find it educational or at least containing information worth considering.
No true Scotsman.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/botany/plants-feel-pain.htm
Plants do feel pain and some are even carnivorous. At what point do you abandon efficiency and accept the reality that to live we need to kill? Do you believe eating bigger/ more calorie dense vegetables is better because it means you need to kill less lives to meet your caloric quota? How about only eating the bare minimum calories needed to live? I don't mean to single you out but I am genuinely curious.
Dr_LucienSanchez
Banned
On the other side of things, I'd recommend absolutely everybody, regardless of their diets, to stay away from these books (particularly the latter). Absolute nonsense, they are. A book covering this sort of thing that seriously cites wikipedia should probably be avoided.
The Omnivore's Dilemma would be a much better suggestion, but I wouldn't expect that coming from you.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It's funny, because plants require the death of animals in order to grow, too.
I imagine most vegetarians eat plenty of grains, which are most likely factory farmed, which mean that entire ecosystems were annihilated in order to facilitate their growth.
Not to mention that grains are grown in gross excess and used to fuel the production of factory farmed meat, which sees animals put into the cruelest of conditions.
Being a vegeterian or vegan is not reducing pain or death. You simply cannot choose to live outside of the cycle of life and death. The best you can do is to try to reduce suffering and live as sustainable a life as possible.
Well, both are largely about personal experiences of people who did vegeterianism/veganism for many, many years. I sincerely doubt you've read either, so I don't expect you'll be able to list any problems you personally had with the specific points in the books, but I'm sure you can find some blog by the name of "GreenCure" or whatever that has already posted an in-depth debunking article with the appropriate talking points.
The Omnivore's Dilemma is also a fine book. I certainly didn't claim that no other books should be read. I'm a big proponent of reading all sorts of things.
Raven Prime
Member
I always consider humans 'behavioral omnivores' in general, and of course we must not forget these are just ways of categorizing the world invented by humans themselves. Our ancient ancestors were clear herbivores, and whilst a lot of evolutionary change happened in between, I think a lot of the clear health benefits that strict plant-based diets hold result from that evolutionary base. Just to point out how ridiculous some taxonomic classifications can be, the panda whose diet consists of like 95+% plant material, is technically considered to be a carnivore.
Concerning the cooking of food, I think that by itself facilitated our larger brains, regardless of what we actually cooked. It just enabled us to consume far greater quantities of calories than raw foods permitted.
As for you and all others that think that plant-based diets are unhealthy, it's a good thing that a lot of experts disagree. For those considering vegetarianism or veganism, I would rather have you studied the words of experts than read the questionable work of like say a Lierre Keith (The Vegetarian Myth).
- http://www.pcrm.org/media/news/the-scientific-report-of-the-2015-dietary
Mango The Magician
Banned
So either only eat plants which requires a lot, or eat meat and grains, which is like three times the amount that the plants required.
the veggie option in this sense is still the more ethical.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Or don't eat any grains. I'll take the "eat plants and meat (that weren't fattened with grains)" option.
Everyone needs to find what works for them, of course.
astroturfing
Member
embarrassing.. why does anyone need to say childish shit like this? i eat meat but i don't get it, why do you feel the need to provoke vegetarians? insecurity or something?
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
eh? why should it affect you anyway?
I like electronic music. If someone says they can't help but laugh at people who listen to electronic music as they headbang to metal why should I care?
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
This is the Internet. You need to always be outraged at other people's assholish opinions.
Mango The Magician
Banned
That idea works well for the people with the time and money to discern between meat that's been fed grain and hasn't been fed grain. Either way, everything requires land in some form along with water and time, cutting meat out, which cuts out the land, water, grains/plants, and time that the meat would need, is still a big drop in the resources consumed from your diet.
Bluekaveli
Member
9 years here but I'm the same. My worst dreams involve me eating meat and I wake up in sweat.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Everything does require land, water, and time, but there was plenty of that before we started converting so much of the fertile land to produce grain monocrops that are killing the soil in the long term and really aren't sustainable in any respect since we're going to run out of fossil fuels eventually.
Honestly, I think we're all pretty fucked regardless with the current population size of the planet. Unless we find some miracle solution or another habitable planet, it's all gonna come crashing down sooner than later.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Back when I ate meat, I hated bacon. I thought it tasted awful.
I was Vegetarian for 3 years and what I missed the most was the social aspect of eating. You can't go out with people that do eat meat, because most restaurants substitutes aren't great. I found that instead of living, I was spending all of my time reading labels and freaking out about cross contamination.
balladofwindfishes
Member
A panda is part of the order of Carnivora, which doesn't necessarily mean it's a carnivore, as this order just means they came from a common ancestor as wolves, bears, dogs, raccoon and cats. It just happens that nearly all of those are carnivores, but bears and raccoon (and maybe even dogs) are omnivores, so it's not exclusive to carnivores.
The panda is also a poor example because its entirely body is built to eat meat. It's horrible at digesting bamboo. It's not built for that at all and it's merely an adaptation of its environment. The only reason it can even digest the plant matter it eats is because of gut bacteria, not because its body was ever intended to eat what it eats. It has to eat constantly just to remain alive and is basically in a constant state of pooping because of all the matter it can't digest.
Technically, you could actually classify a panda as a carnivore, just based on its biology. If people found panda fossils a million years from now they'd never assume a panda ate almost exclusively plant matter.
Those studies are flawed though. A vegetarian is going to be more aware of his food intake then a normal person would, especially when the normal person in America is obese. This just means that vegetarians are more healthy then standard americans, which isnt saying that much.
And cooking food is a lot less efficient then just eating raw meat. We would have had very similar teeth to primates at the time, which are a lot sharper and strongers then our current teeth, and we wouldve been able to eat raw meat fairly easily. Cooking meats require one to collect firewood, collect food, and start a fire, which are all giant pains in the ass. Cooked meats literally just taste a whole lot better then uncooked meats, and with the invention of fire, we were able to cook our foods and make them taste far better then raw meat. This had the unintended consequence of making humans healtheir because now they didnt have to focus so much time and effort to digestion.
Like I said, the idea that an all plant based diet is somehow healthier then a normal healthy diet that's very balanced is wrong, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not as nearly as unhealthy as eating McDonalds or going and ordering a pizza which is basically the average American's diet.
Raven Prime
Member
There is zero evidence that plants feel pain, the article you linked is about plant communication and signaling, something I even took a course on. Plants are highly complex and fascinating organisms, but the timescales on which they operate make it illogical for evolution to equip them with nociception.
This is what Prof. Daniel Chamovitz has to say on the matter:
http://whataplantknows.blogspot.com/2012/09/do-plants-feel-pain.html
And just to be clear, plants are living organisms, I kill in order to live. I just don't kill those that suffer. Human agriculture also includes forms of collateral suffering, but again I try my utmost best to minimize that impact. In the future, certain technologies will make it possible to grow plants in environments that will absolutely guarantee 0 animals will be hurt during their cultivation. For now I however do what I can, in stead of using what I can't do as an excuse to do nothing.
Talk about being contradictory, either you can reduce suffering or you can't. Going vegan is one of the most powerful tools a human has to reduce overall suffering and live as sustainably as possible.
Mango The Magician
Banned
I think the population size is actually the biggest issue, so I agree that we're running out of space. Perhaps before we start planting crops on Mars or the Moon, we could create some kind of floating islands to grow stuff out in the ocean.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
You mean you don't kill things that you can perceive as suffering in ways that mammals do and that you can relate to.
Don't see how it's contradictory at all. All I was pointing out was that being vegetarian does not necessarily mean a sustainable path or one that sees less suffering, which is a big reason why lots of people choose to embark on such a path. Lots of plant eating can definitely be a part of the lifestyle I'm talking about, but you need animals in that mix as well. They are part of the cycle and you really can't just remove them because you feel sorry for them.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Or you can ensure your meat came from sustainable wild caught or free range animals and still enjoy meat while remaining sustainable.
Crocodiles often wrestle with prey for hours. During this time, the beast almost drowns several times, while one or several of its legs are broken and it's probably bleeding either externally or internally. So basically, crocodiles waterboard their prey until they give up and are eaten, often in a savage feast between several crocs bickering with each other and tearing flesh off. The carcass then sits by the water until it's consumed by scavengers like hyena and vultures.
A cow on a free range farm has a pretty good life compared to his cousin the bison in African. He lives his life on a farm with no predators, eating as much as he can consume until eventually he's led into a barn and instantly dies a painless death.
Sure there are horrible living conditions for meat production, but there also aren't. You can remain sustainable and humane to animals and still eat meat as long as you're careful and chose your meat properly. It's also healthier meat and tastes better.
Interesting discussion...
I've eaten meat all my life, love just about any type of beef/pork/chicken. I'm very physically active and consume what I would argue is a higher than average amount of protein (meat/powder) in a given day.
That said, my fiancee and I recently tried to go vegetarian. I lasted a month before going back to meat. Why? I certainly craved meat, that's for sure. But what did me in was that I felt sluggish, tired, and mentally as though I'd dropped about 30 IQ points by the end of that month. I made sure I was consuming as many calories as before I cut out meat, but it seemed to make no difference: my body simply would not adjust and actually I felt dramatically less healthy.
Maybe I didn't stick with it long enough to break the craving stage and allow my body to fully adjust, but good god was it rough. Probably won't try vegetarianism again unless forced to.
I've eaten meat all my life, love just about any type of beef/pork/chicken. I'm very physically active and consume what I would argue is a higher than average amount of protein (meat/powder) in a given day.
That said, my fiancee and I recently tried to go vegetarian. I lasted a month before going back to meat. Why? I certainly craved meat, that's for sure. But what did me in was that I felt sluggish, tired, and mentally as though I'd dropped about 30 IQ points by the end of that month. I made sure I was consuming as many calories as before I cut out meat, but it seemed to make no difference: my body simply would not adjust and actually I felt dramatically less healthy.
Maybe I didn't stick with it long enough to break the craving stage and allow my body to fully adjust, but good god was it rough. Probably won't try vegetarianism again unless forced to.
Wait, so basically this is about cravings and how gut bacteria [Influence[/I] cravings, right?
I feel like we're too on this gut bacteria band wagon lately, and while I'm sure it has a lot of influence on our bodies, I feel like it's being misrepresented as this magical focal point in our bodies lately. I'm already seeing detox and other random bullshit woo posts about gut bacteria manipulation, curing everything.
Your cravings aren't -just- about the bacteria in your gut, however, let's not forget that.
I feel like we're too on this gut bacteria band wagon lately, and while I'm sure it has a lot of influence on our bodies, I feel like it's being misrepresented as this magical focal point in our bodies lately. I'm already seeing detox and other random bullshit woo posts about gut bacteria manipulation, curing everything.
Your cravings aren't -just- about the bacteria in your gut, however, let's not forget that.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
It's almost as if your body doesn't give a shit about "calories" and instead uses, desires, and requires nutrients.
Sarcasm aside, those nutrients are not all the same no matter how much people want to reduce everything to simple calories.
Your shift dramatically changed the composition of your diet, so it only makes sense that you'd see huge changes in how you felt and your general sense of well being.
Modern humans can't because of our gut flora. I think earlier humans had guts that could handle it. I may be mistaken.
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
We can eat raw meat just fine. Obviously the risk becomes higher, but if you're taking care to make sure stuff is clean, then there's no problem. I eat plenty of raw meat. Usually it comes in the form of extremely rare steaks, though, so the surface area has been briefly cooked.
Still, you can find plenty of places that serve all sorts of raw meat. Various kind of meat sashimi, tartare recipes, etc.
Understandable, but I did make an attempt to replace the meat with an increase in other high protein sources (legumes, quinoa, eggs, etc.). I suppose maybe I failed to examine what specific nutrients I was denying my body by cutting out meat. On a sidenote, my fiancee handled vegetarianism just fine. Go figure
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Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Understandable, but I did make an attempt to replace the meat with an increase in other high protein sources (legumes, quinoa, eggs, etc.). I suppose maybe I failed to examine what specific nutrients I was denying my body by cutting out meat. On a sidenote, my fiancee handled vegetarianism just fine. Go figure
All protein isn't equal, of course.
And, yeah, obviously people are going to respond differently. Us humans are very diverse, which is why the whole idea of blanket dietary recommendations is kind of a joke (which isn't very funny considering how damaging they are turning out to be).
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