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You are More Likely to become a Self-Made Millionaire in Western Europe vs USA

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Barrett2

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WASHINGTON — Benjamin Franklin did it. Henry Ford did it. And American life is built on the faith that others can do it, too: rise from humble origins to economic heights. “Movin’ on up,” George Jefferson-style, is not only a sitcom song but a civil religion.

But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe. The mobility gap has been widely discussed in academic circles, but a sour season of mass unemployment and street protests has moved the discussion toward center stage.

Former Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, a Republican candidate for president, warned this fall that movement “up into the middle income is actually greater, the mobility in Europe, than it is in America.” National Review, a conservative thought leader, wrote that “most Western European and English-speaking nations have higher rates of mobility.” Even Representative Paul D. Ryan, a Wisconsin Republican who argues that overall mobility remains high, recently wrote that “mobility from the very bottom up” is “where the United States lags behind.”

Liberal commentators have long emphasized class, but the attention on the right is largely new.

“It’s becoming conventional wisdom that the U.S. does not have as much mobility as most other advanced countries,” said Isabel V. Sawhill, an economist at the Brookings Institution. “I don’t think you’ll find too many people who will argue with that.”

One reason for the mobility gap may be the depth of American poverty, which leaves poor children starting especially far behind. Another may be the unusually large premiums that American employers pay for college degrees. Since children generally follow their parents’ educational trajectory, that premium increases the importance of family background and stymies people with less schooling.

At least five large studies in recent years have found the United States to be less mobile than comparable nations. A project led by Markus Jantti, an economist at a Swedish university, found that 42 percent of American men raised in the bottom fifth of incomes stay there as adults. That shows a level of persistent disadvantage much higher than in Denmark (25 percent) and Britain (30 percent) — a country famous for its class constraints.

Meanwhile, just 8 percent of American men at the bottom rose to the top fifth. That compares with 12 percent of the British and 14 percent of the Danes.

Despite frequent references to the United States as a classless society, about 62 percent of Americans (male and female) raised in the top fifth of incomes stay in the top two-fifths, according to research by the Economic Mobility Project of the Pew Charitable Trusts. Similarly, 65 percent born in the bottom fifth stay in the bottom two-fifths.

By emphasizing the influence of family background, the studies not only challenge American identity but speak to the debate about inequality. While liberals often complain that the United States has unusually large income gaps, many conservatives have argued that the system is fair because mobility is especially high, too: everyone can climb the ladder. Now the evidence suggests that America is not only less equal, but also less mobile.

John Bridgeland, a former aide to President George W. Bush who helped start Opportunity Nation, an effort to seek policy solutions, said he was “shocked” by the international comparisons. “Republicans will not feel compelled to talk about income inequality,” Mr. Bridgeland said. “But they will feel a need to talk about a lack of mobility — a lack of access to the American Dream.”

While Europe differs from the United States in culture and demographics, a more telling comparison may be with Canada, a neighbor with significant ethnic diversity. Miles Corak, an economist at the University of Ottawa, found that just 16 percent of Canadian men raised in the bottom tenth of incomes stayed there as adults, compared with 22 percent of Americans. Similarly, 26 percent of American men raised at the top tenth stayed there, but just 18 percent of Canadians.

“Family background plays more of a role in the U.S. than in most comparable countries,” Professor Corak said in an interview.

Skeptics caution that the studies measure “relative mobility” — how likely children are to move from their parents’ place in the income distribution. That is different from asking whether they have more money. Most Americans have higher incomes than their parents because the country has grown richer.

Some conservatives say this measure, called absolute mobility, is a better gauge of opportunity. A Pew study found that 81 percent of Americans have higher incomes than their parents (after accounting for family size). There is no comparable data on other countries.

Since they require two generations of data, the studies also omit immigrants, whose upward movement has long been considered an American strength. “If America is so poor in economic mobility, maybe someone should tell all these people who still want to come to the U.S.,” said Stuart M. Butler, an analyst at the Heritage Foundation.

The income compression in rival countries may also make them seem more mobile. Reihan Salam, a writer for The Daily and National Review Online, has calculated that a Danish family can move from the 10th percentile to the 90th percentile with $45,000 of additional earnings, while an American family would need an additional $93,000.

Even by measures of relative mobility, Middle America remains fluid. About 36 percent of Americans raised in the middle fifth move up as adults, while 23 percent stay on the same rung and 41 percent move down, according to Pew research. The “stickiness” appears at the top and bottom, as affluent families transmit their advantages and poor families stay trapped.

While Americans have boasted of casting off class since Poor Richard’s Almanac, until recently there has been little data.

Pioneering work in the early 1980s by Gary S. Becker, a Nobel laureate in economics, found only a mild relationship between fathers’ earnings and those of their sons. But when better data became available a decade later, another prominent economist, Gary Solon, found the bond twice as strong. Most researchers now estimate the “elasticity” of father-son earnings at 0.5, which means if one man earns $100,000 more than another, his sons would earn $50,000 more on average than the sons of the poorer man.

In 2006 Professor Corak reviewed more than 50 studies of nine countries. He ranked Canada, Norway, Finland and Denmark as the most mobile, with the United States and Britain roughly tied at the other extreme. Sweden, Germany, and France were scattered across the middle.

The causes of America’s mobility problem are a topic of dispute — starting with the debates over poverty. The United States maintains a thinner safety net than other rich countries, leaving more children vulnerable to debilitating hardships.

Poor Americans are also more likely than foreign peers to grow up with single mothers. That places them at an elevated risk of experiencing poverty and related problems, a point frequently made by Mr. Santorum, who surged into contention in the Iowa caucuses. The United States also has uniquely high incarceration rates, and a longer history of racial stratification than its peers.

“The bottom fifth in the U.S. looks very different from the bottom fifth in other countries,” said Scott Winship, a researcher at the Brookings Institution, who wrote the article for National Review. “Poor Americans have to work their way up from a lower floor.”

A second distinguishing American trait is the pay tilt toward educated workers. While in theory that could help poor children rise — good learners can become high earners — more often it favors the children of the educated and affluent, who have access to better schools and arrive in them more prepared to learn.

“Upper-income families can invest more in their children’s education and they may have a better understanding of what it takes to get a good education,” said Eric Wanner, president of the Russell Sage Foundation, which gives grants to social scientists.

The United States is also less unionized than many of its peers, which may lower wages among the least skilled, and has public health problems, like obesity and diabetes, which can limit education and employment.

Perhaps another brake on American mobility is the sheer magnitude of the gaps between rich and the rest — the theme of the Occupy Wall Street protests, which emphasize the power of the privileged to protect their interests. Countries with less equality generally have less mobility.

Mr. Salam recently wrote that relative mobility “is overrated as a social policy goal” compared with raising incomes across the board. Parents naturally try to help their children, and a completely mobile society would mean complete insecurity: anyone could tumble any time.

But he finds the stagnation at the bottom alarming and warns that it will worsen. Most of the studies end with people born before 1970, while wage gaps, single motherhood and incarceration increased later. Until more recent data arrives, he said, “we don’t know the half of it.”

There you have it, folks. No universal health care, college is insanely expensive, and it's harder to get rich here than in freaking France and Denmark.


 

Dead Man

Member
But, what about the bootstraps?!

Edit: Serious reply? Not surprised, it will always be easier with access to education and health. I am expecting a few people to roll up and claim they are not self made since they have socialist governments, or some rubbish to that effect.
 
Facts don't matter. Republican candidates are going to keep shoving this "EUROPEAN WELFARE STATE WHERE NOBODY WINS" shit down our throats, and people will keep believing it, just like they think Obama's a socialist and that being a millionaire means you're a "job creator".

Facts don't matter. Repetition and appeals to fears and prejudices do matter.

Then why does Europe find it having to cut back more and more on their benefits? It seems all these great benefits where in the end unsustainable, thus requiring cuts, unless your Germany and can just lean on Greece and certain other Euro countries to prop up your exports.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Then why does Europe find it having to cut back more and more on their benefits? It seems all these great benefits where in the end unsustainable, thus requiring cuts, unless your Germany and can just lean on Greece and certain other Euro countries to prop up your exports.

Can only speak for my little part of Europe, but it wasn't 'benefits' that got us into trouble. It was a reckless and unsupervised instance of very pure capitalism in the property market and banking.
 
Can only speak for my little part of Europe, but it wasn't 'benefits' that got us into trouble.

Then why do they have to be cut? It's not necessarily that the benefits where the problem. It's just the cost incurred was unsustainable when other factors came into play (demographic shift, population growth, needing more money and more money to fund, etc).
 
Or, you know, a massive recession in the western world that has necessitated massive cuts even in the U.S., where similar benefits are few and far in between.

Meaning it never hit the us nearly as bad, since we moved away from European style benefits in the 1980s and 1990s. The benefits in Europe where a weight around it's neck. Too much weight kept being added recently.
 

Dead Man

Member
Then why do they have to be cut? It's not necessarily that the benefits where the problem. It's just the cost incurred was unsustainable when other factors came into play (demographic shift, population growth, needing more money and more money to fund, etc).

They have to be cut because other things occurred that made them unaffordable. It's not hard to understand, it is a pretty basic logical concept. Lets say you are doing well and buy a car. Then you get in an accident and have hospital bills and can't work. You may need to sell the car. But is that the cars fault?
 
They have to be cut because other things occurred that made them unaffordable. It's not hard to understand, it is a pretty basic logical concept. Lets say you are doing well and buy a car. Then you get in an accident and have hospital bills and can't work. You may need to sell the car. But is that the cars fault?

It means that the particular car shouldn't have been bought due to the risk if a crisis where to happen.

That or you should have had car insurance.
 

Dead Man

Member
It means that the particular car shouldn't have been bought due to the risk if a crisis where to happen.

That or you should have had car insurance.

I'm not sure if you are genuinley not very clever, or just intellectually dishonest. Either way, I don't really have the energy to engage with you at the moment.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Then why do they have to be cut? It's not necessarily that the benefits where the problem. It's just the cost incurred was unsustainable when other factors came into play (demographic shift, population growth, needing more money and more money to fund, etc).

The property market got out of control. Fueled by its own government 'benefits' (property incentives, tax cuts etc.), and reckless banks lending out cheap credit the property market bubbled.

Then Lehman happened. Credit squeezed. A bank went to the brink here. The government stepped in, and (stupidly, in hindsight), guaranteed all bank debt.

As the global recession kicked in and the property market here free-falled, as confidence free-falled, the government was left on the hook for massive bank debts. The extent of the losses were far larger than initially anticipated. The cost of borrowing rose as bondholders lost confidence that the state could manage this seemingly ever-growing pile of bank debt. The government had to borrow more to meet bank bondholder payments. You can see where this is going - the public finances were devastated by the efforts to prevent bank defaults. Finally the IMF/EU was called in.

The situation means now that benefits are not as affordable as they once were. But the benefits were not the cause of the situation. It was state intervention in supposedly private capitalism, and being left on the hook when that 'private' capitalism went horribly wrong.
 

BigDug13

Member
It means that the particular car shouldn't have been bought due to the risk if a crisis where to happen.

That or you should have had car insurance.

You're right! No medical coverage, no pension/401k, no overtime bonus (work 80 hours a week with no increase in pay). And you better not complain or we will replace you. You never know what the economy will do so we are playing it safe. Since there are far fewer jobs than people, you must play by our rules!
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Only when the baby boomers and the most brainwashed of their progeny are dead and gone, will America: The Religion have a shot at dying out.

Because it really is a religion. And it sez that if you fail in America, you fail because you're just not American enough. It's nice, tidy, and compliments American style MegaJesus Christianity, which helps reinforce the mentality that all problems in life are rooted in insufficient piety and lack of faith in the unifying dream of society.
 

GoutPatrol

Forgotten in his cell
Meaning it never hit the us nearly as bad, since we moved away from European style benefits in the 1980s and 1990s. The benefits in Europe where a weight around it's neck. Too much weight kept being added recently.

I mean, do you even know...history? What are "european style" benefits? Do you think the US ever had a social safety net like Europe has right now, after their austerity measures?
 

SnakeXs

about the same metal capacity as a cucumber
Yeah but you're still more likely to become a billionaire here.

America, fuck yeah. #1, U-S-A, U-S-A.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
I call bullshit. I was raised solidly middle-class. Now I'm lower-class. There's your mobility.



Also, why are people still treating Manos as though he's not a troll?
 

V_Arnold

Member
It means that the particular car shouldn't have been bought due to the risk if a crisis where to happen.

That or you should have had car insurance.

No, it does not even remotely mean that. It simply means that if you have to sell a car, you sell the car. And when you can afford it again, you buy one once again. If you still need it. No consequences needed to be attached in situations like that, regarding the car purchase, imho.
 
I just don't think the magnitude of this recession is revealing what does and doesn't work overall. It's just a time where all of the countries economically tied to it have to make hard choices.
Thankfully we haven't been dependent on these things.

Did you feel pretty good about Obama's plan for the military budget going forward? Was that a sign to you that the military as it was working was not sustainable?[/quote]
That's nothing new, that was a pet project of Rumsfeld back in the Bush Administration too. Restructuring has been ongoing for awhile.



If people planned their lives that way they'd be living in a sterile 12x12 cube apartment, and they'd sell their two-wheel bike for a nice, safe adult tricycle.
Not my problem Europe has bad planning.

But to go with your logic, what other programs should have been ignored as viable due to them being cut during the recession?
I just know that American's aren't "reeling in shock" like Europeans because there "freebies" are no longer available. It's tougher, but it's better in the end. Look at the way British kids reacted at having to pay around 18K a year to go to Cambridge, if that's not a sign of over entitlement I'm not sure what is.


Only when the baby boomers and the most brainwashed of their progeny are dead and gone, will America: The Religion have a shot at dying out.

Because it really is a religion. And it sez that if you fail in America, you fail because you're just not American enough. It's nice, tidy, and compliments American style MegaJesus Christianity, which helps reinforce the mentality that all problems in life are rooted in insufficient piety and lack of faith in the unifying dream of society.
Funny I always thought I was Jewish.

Even calling them "European-style" benefits (same goes for calling unions "European-style") is a sign of where his opinions are coming from. It's sort of like when you hear someone say "the Democrat party".

Funny I'm a registered Democrat. By the way it's no different when you hear someone say The Republican Party.
 

Meadows

Banned
Manos isn't a troll.

He's a good poster that generally creates interesting debates and is an asset to the community.
 
wow, that's quite the article. it's without a doubt that the people of the United States really are in a dangerous place, we've all known that, but this is just salt on the wounds
 
Now that is a quality article in the OP. I love how it highlights all sides of the argument.

Sorry, I'm not quite sure which argument you mean.

It's sad you guys are having so much trouble with this, then again that is the downside of all the freebies and entitlements you had.

That we paid for in our tax? Someone worked out in the other thread that extra tax works out cheaper than getting private health care in the states, by the way.

He's a good poster that generally creates interesting debates and is an asset to the community.

Really? Seems to me like he doesn't give a shit about the community.
 
I wouldn't be able to live in a country where the poor couldn't go to the same school as the rich.

in Arizona this is very structural as the schools are funded by great part by their surrounding neighborhoods. So bad neighbordhood? bad school.

lots and lots of us have lied to be able to go to a school that isn't gang infested and understaffed
 
wow, that's quite the article. it's without a doubt that the people of the United States really are in a dangerous place, we've all known that, but this is just salt on the wounds

What are you talking about?

I wouldn't be able to live in a country where the poor couldn't go to the same school as the rich.

Well, then live in the United States, last I checked poor people have gone to Harvard, NYU, and other high ranked schools too.

in Arizona this is very structural as the schools are funded by great part by their surrounding neighborhoods. So bad neighbordhood? bad school.

lots and lots of us have lied to be able to go to a school that isn't gang infested and understaffed

You're part of the damn problem. Raised by your parents to lie and cheat and screw up schools by overcrowding them.
 

Wazzim

Banned
But europe bla bla bla europe bad planning bla bla bla bla we've got it all good with our polarisation bla bla bla budget cuts bla bla bla you should have insurances yourself against our fraud bla bla bla eurofighter sucks buy Joint Strike Fighters bla bla bla USA has better burgers (that's fucking true though) bla bla bla freedom bla bla bla




UIGYu.jpg
 

SyNapSe

Member
Thread title is kind of misleading as the article and link have nothing to do with becoming a self-made millionaire. The studies are over how people move from socio-economic groupings that it bunches into fifths.

Even by measures of relative mobility, Middle America remains fluid. About 36 percent of Americans raised in the middle fifth move up as adults, while 23 percent stay on the same rung and 41 percent move down, according to Pew research. The “stickiness” appears at the top and bottom, as affluent families transmit their advantages and poor families stay trapped.

The top I assume is due to how skewed the gap has become. I wonder how much the recent difference in number of children is skewing that as well. Leaving your inheritance to 8 kids is a lot different from splitting it between two.
 
Manos isn't a troll.

He's a good poster that generally creates interesting debates and is an asset to the community.

Seems to me like he's always making dishonest arguments that fit his agenda then acting evasive and stubborn when challenged. If you enjoy that fair enough, I just find it frustrating to read. I like the guy outside of threads like these though.
 

Kabouter

Member
Thread title is kind of misleading as the article and link have nothing to do with becoming a self-made millionaire. The studies are over how people move from socio-economic groupings that it bunches into fifths.
Not necessarily, the article notes that the main problem with mobility is in the top and bottom fifths. I think the title certainly fits with that.

article said:
Even by measures of relative mobility, Middle America remains fluid. About 36 percent of Americans raised in the middle fifth move up as adults, while 23 percent stay on the same rung and 41 percent move down, according to Pew research. The “stickiness” appears at the top and bottom, as affluent families transmit their advantages and poor families stay trapped.
 
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