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Zendaya's role in SPIDER-MAN: HOMECOMING has been revealed!

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and on a note that has nothing to do with snark: pardon me if i don't give a greasy shit about whether this casting Strictly Fits The Character, or anything else that has to do with trying to sneakily whine that It's Only Okay When the Blacks Do It, when these properties have been rebooted more often than kenny has died in south park
 
You are trying to use bullshit buzzwords (~consequentialism~) and dime-store philosophy to justify being a racist jackass.

Maybe you could try not doing that. And if thats too hard, well, we're going to continue to mock you, most likely.

First of all, take the "you are racist" comment back. a) I'm not a racist (which can be proven by my posts that are saying that I don't have a problem with the casting) and b) as I am not a racist, this is a huge insult.

Secondly, it's not my problem if you don't know about consequantialism.
 
I'd say it's unfair to call that guy a racist, but u can't possibly know the consequences of saying that's unfair.

So I guess that means he's racist.
 
You are trying to use bullshit buzzwords (~consequentialism~) and dime-store philosophy to justify being a racist jackass.

Maybe you could try not doing that. And if thats too hard, well, we're going to continue to mock you, most likely.

I don't think he's being racist. It's more like zealously adhering to a philosophy of treating everything equally in ALL cases while ignoring all context or consequences. Maybe unintentionally racist is more accurate? Accidental racist?
 

BLACKLAC

Member
https://www.facebook.com/jgunn/posts/10153548508766157

James Gunn:

People get upset when something they consider intrinsic to a comic book character changes when adapted for a film. I get this. There are movies I dislike because I think there's a basic misunderstanding of the story or the character when the comic is transferred to film (I still hate how in the first Batman movie the Joker was revealed as the murderer of Bruce Wayne's parents, for instance.)

That said, I do not believe a character is the color of his or her skin. When Michael B Jordan was cast as Johnny Storm I didn't understand the uproar. The primary characteristic of Johnny was not, to me, that he was white, or that he had blonde hair, but that he was a fiery, funny, big-mouthed braggart of a hero. I was happy that he was going to be played by one of the finest and most charming young actors out there.

Yesterday, a rumor broke out that the character of Mary Jane was being played by a young black woman, Zendaya, and all hell broke out on the Internet (again). I tweeted that if people find themselves complaining about Mary Jane's ethnicity they have lives that are too good. (For those of you who think this means I'm confirming that Zendaya IS playing MJ, realize that although I've read the Spidey script, and I've met the actress in question, I have no idea what her role is. There's a good chance someone told me at one time or another, but, if so, I can't remember. I'm going to find out when I go into Marvel this afternoon, but I feel free to speak until that time because it's about the concept about a black woman playing Mary Jane, not the actuality or hypothesis of it.)

I got a thousand or so responses to my tweet. Most of them were positive. Some folks disagreed - they thought the character should look like what she looks like in the comics - but were thoughtful. And a handful were flat out racist.

I can't respond to the racists - I'm not ever going to change their minds. But for the thoughtful majority of you out there:

For me, if a character's primary attribute - the thing that makes them iconic - is the color of their skin, or their hair color, frankly, that character is shallow and sucks. For me, what makes MJ MJ is her alpha female playfulness, and if the actress captures that, then she'll work. And, for the record, I think Zendaya even matches what I think of as MJ's primary physical characteristics - she's a tall, thin model - much more so than actresses have in the past.

Whatever the case, if we're going to continue to make movies based on the almost all white heroes and supporting characters from the comics of the last century, we're going to have to get used to them being more reflective of our diverse present world. Perhaps we can be open to the idea that, although someone may not initially match how we personally conceive a character, we can be - and often are - happily surprised.
 
High comedy here.

Hot girl thats out of Peter's league is basically the only box that needs to be checked. Red highlights or anything else is their call.
 

Fencedude

Member
First of all, take the "you are racist" comment back. a) I'm not a racist (which can be proven by my posts that are saying that I don't have a problem with the casting) and b) as I am not a racist, this is a huge insult.

Secondly, it's not my problem if you don't know about consequantialism.

A) If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, then its probably a duck.

B) I do know about consequentialism, and no one here is actually advocating it.

C) If you don't want to be called a racist, don't try to justify racist ideas with libertarian bullshit
 

icespide

Banned
First of all, take the "you are racist" comment back. a) I'm not a racist (which can be proven by my posts that are saying that I don't have a problem with the casting) and b) as I am not a racist, this is a huge insult.

Secondly, it's not my problem if you don't know about consequantialism.
what is your goal with the discussion here?
 

Fencedude

Member
Can we just stop assuming that those like 5 set pictures show off everything about how she's going to look?

Its getting really tiring.
 
A) If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, then its probably a duck.

B) I do know about consequentialism, and no one here is actually advocating it.

C) If you don't want to be called a racist, don't try to justify racist ideas with libertarian bullshit

B) There are arguments in this thread based on the consequences.

C) My argument was that as we accept black actors to play white character's roles (which is totally ok), we should accept that white actors can play black character's roles, too, if there aren't story reasons for a character to be played by a specific's race or gender actor.

what is your goal with the discussion here?
I said my argument pages back, some guys posted their counter arguments and we had a chat. We are having a discussion. That's all.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
First of all, take the "you are racist" comment back. a) I'm not a racist (which can be proven by my posts that are saying that I don't have a problem with the casting) and b) as I am not a racist, this is a huge insult.

Secondly, it's not my problem if you don't know about consequantialism.

Unfortunately, when you get to "But I'm not a racist", the conversation has already ended.
 

Fencedude

Member
C) My argument was that as we accept black actors to play white character's roles (which is totally ok), we should accept that white actors can play black character's roles, too, if there aren't story reasons for a character to be played by a specific's race or gender actor.

You have succumbed to the classic libertarian/child problem of assuming we exist in an ideal, rational world.

Since this is, obviously, not the case, things are more complicated.

Explaining this to libertarians/children can be difficult, but not impossible.

But since this has been explained to you several times, I'm going to assume you aren't interested in having an actual discussion, and will continue to assume you are just racist.

Thank you!
 

asagami_

Banned
Re: Height

CqLQ_kUUMAAACmP.jpg

OMG I can see Zendaya doing the famous line here. I hope now she is Mary Jane.
 
No it's not. Do you even understand how many people dye their hair for roles in Hollywood? One is asking someone to change their hair color, something millions of people do anyway. The other is disqualifing them because of their race. One would cause a shitstorm of claims of discrimination, and the other is straight up common practice.

Of course they don't hold the same weight. One is literally impossible to change in a person and would eliminate whole groups of people and the other is an already common practice among people in and out of movies.

Also, hair color being a necessary trait is completely based on how well known the character or person is for their hair. You can't make a blanket statment like that when different characters are recognized for certain things.

And why would MJ be recognizable for her hair, zen? Would it be because she has been portrayed in the past as a white woman with red hair?

It's not necessary, and it's shitty to tell a minority actress that she needs to go out of her way to look more like the prior white actresses in the role when this is pretty clearly meant to be a reimagining of the character.

Ultimate Aunt May was specifically made younger. She's not supposed to be elderly in the first place. She's supposed to be in her late 40s to early 50s.

Honestly man, you don't seem to know much about the characters or history of these books. Yet you seem really keen on talking as if you know what's happened in them or how the fanbase views them.

If they wanted may to appear younger, she wouldn't have had grey hair, like she doesnt in the MCU. Aunt May had grey hair in USM because they wanted her to appear as an elderly authority figure and still be recognizable, and in combination with the added sex appeal by aging her down when it's convenient it is still pretty creepy sometimes.

And please don't tell me I haven't read comics. Shit, the fact that you keep referring to USM when I'm pulling from Spider-Man as a whole shows how limited your frame of reference is here.
 

jon bones

hot hot hanuman-on-man action
C) My argument was that as we accept black actors to play white character's roles (which is totally ok), we should accept that white actors can play black character's roles, too, if there aren't story reasons for a character to be played by a specific's race or gender actor.

libertarianism is a such joke lmao

OMG I can see Zendaya doing the famous line here. I hope now she is Mary Jane.

yeah, put a word bubble with that line over her face there and we got it


what comic is this from? reads like Elliot Kalan's run...
 

JeTmAn81

Member

A considered response, one which I mostly agree with. However, I don't think just because a character is shallow that they suck or are uninteresting. We're talking about superheroes here, not Proust. All the characters are shallow. They're entertaining because they have fun, outlandish powers, wear interesting costumes and fight dastardly villains. That's basically it.

Spider-Man's still one of the most popular characters in all of fiction, and Mary-Jane is a significant part of that. So I don't think it's inappropriate to consider the red hair an important part of her appeal.
 
yoooooo... what happened since i went to sleep last night?

shortly after the news broke, everything was fine... maybe a few people mildly miffed etc, and i thought "yes, racism is finally over, or maybe Zendaya is just mixed enough to get a White Pass", but now that i'm back on the internet, the whole place turned into thisisfine..jpg

WHY!?
 
C) My argument was that as we accept black actors to play white character's roles (which is totally ok), we should accept that white actors can play black character's roles, too, if there aren't story reasons for a character to be played by a specific's race or gender actor.
.

I'm not sure you understand that the world isn't nearly the perfect place where this would actually work or make sense.
 

Blader

Member
First of all, take the "you are racist" comment back. a) I'm not a racist (which can be proven by my posts that are saying that I don't have a problem with the casting) and b) as I am not a racist, this is a huge insult.

Secondly, it's not my problem if you don't know about consequantialism.

You may not be a racist but ignoring the context around the immense social disadvantages of being black in Hollywood/America and the changes that can be made to mitigate this, while pretending that whites and blacks are on an even enough playing field already, is what helps to enable racism.
 
And why would MJ be recognizable for her hair, zen? Would it be because she has been portrayed in the past as a white woman with red hair?

It's not necessary, and it's shitty to tell a minority actress that she needs to go out of her way to look more like the prior white actresses in the role when this is pretty clearly meant to be a reimagining of the character.



If they wanted may to appear younger, she wouldn't have had grey hair, like she doesnt in the MCU. Aunt May had grey hair in USM because they wanted her to appear as an elderly authority figure and still be recognizable, and in combination with the added sex appeal by aging her down when it's convenient it is still pretty creepy sometimes.

And please don't tell me I haven't read comics. Shit, the fact that you keep referring to USM when I'm pulling from Spider-Man as a whole shows how limited your frame of reference is here.
Holy fuck man. I'm pulling from USM because that and Spectacular Spider-Man are where they are pulling influence from for the movie. You're pulling out fucking nothing that hasn't already been in this thread. My frame of reference has expanded past USM multiple times now, including explaining to you how Norman Osborns hair isn't his visual identifier past anyone looking to make a joke.

And no, again, you're talking out of your ass. May is specifically in her 40-50s. It's been said by the guy who created the comic that he purposefully made her younger.

Yeah, she would be recognizable for her hair because literally every interpretation of her has had red hair. It's a really easy thing to copy and paste onto any woman playing the character so she stands out. There is zero reason not to do it outside of your bizarre claim that asking a black actress to dye her hair is somehow offensive. You keep claiming that they need to make her hair look like a white womans hair when the problem could just as easily be rectified by making her dye her hair one of the many unnatural red hair colors.

And outside of her race, we don't even know if she's a reimagining of the character. Simply changing the race of someone isn't a reimagining of the character. She could be the exact same MJ for all we know.
 
Not this shit again...How about we make Luke Cage asian and Black Panther a white guy instead. That's okay right?
Nothing against Zenyatta, I'm just sometimes sick of corporate decisions of disregarding the idea of being a faithful to the source material just because of whatever reasons.

Kinda agree but still maybe in this modern day, we do need to adapt. Things aren't the same as they were in 60s.
 
And why would MJ be recognizable for her hair, zen? Would it be because she has been portrayed in the past as a white woman with red hair?

It's not necessary, and it's shitty to tell a minority actress that she needs to go out of her way to look more like the prior white actresses in the role when this is pretty clearly meant to be a reimagining of the character.



If they wanted may to appear younger, she wouldn't have had grey hair, like she doesnt in the MCU. Aunt May had grey hair in USM because they wanted her to appear as an elderly authority figure and still be recognizable, and in combination with the added sex appeal by aging her down when it's convenient it is still pretty creepy sometimes.

And please don't tell me I haven't read comics. Shit, the fact that you keep referring to USM when I'm pulling from Spider-Man as a whole shows how limited your frame of reference is here.

I keep telling this person that black people can have naturally red hair but they keep spitting out the same factually incorrect argument.

i-feel-like-im-taking-crazy-pills.gif
 
There is a strong racial component to Luke Cage and Black Panther's characters/identities. There is no such racial component to Mary Jane's.

Lol the fact that he compared those two to Mary Jane is hilarious.

Mary Jane is known as Peter Parker's main love interest, not white woman with red hair.
 
And why would MJ be recognizable for her hair, zen? Would it be because she has been portrayed in the past as a white woman with red hair?

It's not necessary, and it's shitty to tell a minority actress that she needs to go out of her way to look more like the prior white actresses in the role when this is pretty clearly meant to be a reimagining of the character.

I don't think it's shitty to make an actress to go out of her way to look like the character she is portraying.
 
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