Support NeoGAF

[copelandmaster]

TL;DR

Imagine you could obtain a 4K monitor — that does 120Hz — and it has a fully adjustable optional strobe backlight (open source firmware!) with a switchable scanning backlight mode? If you need a 4K 120Hz display before 2018, Zis is currently the only game in town.

Preassembled Full Display for $655 + $160 shipping ($815 USD). Current ETA is end of October 2017.

Zisworks pre-order page - Includes expected release schedule and entire parts list with detailed descriptions of each part
Main Site - FAQ, Products, Downloads (has detailed pdf's of the electronics components)
Zisworks ZWS 4K 120Hz: The making-of

Blurbusters review:
#1 (120hz, 240hz and 480hz motion testing)
#2 (Input lag tests including 480 Hz) - TBA
#3 (Strobbed backlight testing) - TBA
Blurbusters Thread

Linus TechTips Video
19 minute demonstration of an early version of the x39
cirthix r/Monitors AMA

This is a project by user cirthix, a display engineer and FPGA programmer, over on [H]ardforum's Seiki SE50UY04 buyers thread. Juicy development bits start around page 48. This is his second project after his 240 Hz LCD modification kit back in 2013.

As it stands, project development is complete, so crowdfunding is unnecessary. As of this writing, this is a limited run like the previous 240hz panel. Production is entirely dependent on demand.

As stated before, if this venture doesn't work out well, I'm not going to be making these kinds of displays in the future. - Source

4k120hz requires 2x 1.2 Displayport cables/connection to your GPU. 4k60 is possible using one DP connection. You'll need to find your own 75mm/100mm VESA mount (Yes, even for the 28" full version). Monoprice has some cheap stand and desk clamp options. There is no Overdrive functionality. Does not support Freesync.

Configurations available:
28" full display ($655+$160 ship/$815 USD)
28" no panel kit ($440+$30 ship/$470 USD)
39" no panel kit ($375+$15 ship/$390 USD)

Officially Supported/Fully Tested 4k Displays:
M280DGJ-L30 - 28in matte TN
V390DK1-LS1 - 39in glossy MVA - found in the popular Seiki SE39UY04 4k30 2013 tv. Discontinued, you'll have to source your own tv/panel. (source for panel coating)

Quick overview.

4k@120Hz
1080p@240Hz
720p@300Hz
540p@480Hz
fast pwm, pwm-free, scanning, and strobing modes
28" and 39" behave identically

LTT review will be posted on the 17th. Blurbusters is ramping up testing, will have some content up before the 17th and some after. I'll be running the preorder from the 17th to the 7th, with 5 weeks of manufacturing afterwards, 2 weeks of flashing, assembly and testing, depending on order numbers, should be appearing in customers hands at the end of October. Both reviews will have preorder links. (NOTE: Current pre-order end date is Sept 1st). 09/03/2017 - Current pre-order end date is September 16th.

Latest FW brings 10bit support and eliminates scanlines completely (LTT mentions lines, but their fw is a bit older) - Source

How does this compare to other 4k120hz/144hz monitors? Why so early to the party/why are they so late?

There are other 4k120 panels, but nobody makes proper controllers for them. My 4k120 tcon is special in that it allows two slightly mismatched inputs which makes driving it much easier. With the other 4k120 panels, you need a single 4k120 source. Right now, this means 4k60 input with motion interpolation. With my 4k120 solution, you can use two 1920*2160 sources as long as they are nearly synchronized (but not necessarily exactly). This is what allows 4k120 directly to the panel. The two DP2LVDS boards work together and tell the host computer that they are two halves to the same display, and modern graphics cards send them video streams which are close enough to synchronized to be recombined in the FPGA. - Source

Input Lag, Scaling at non native resolutions

Input lag is 2 lines on the DP chips and 4 lines in the tcon+panel (plus up to three more in dual input mode). This results in typically 22~33 microseconds of lag (basically zero, most monitors have input lag measurements in the tens of milliseconds). 1080p mode for games looks better than a native 1080p panel due to the reduced screendoor effect. Sure, the scaling is fine for 540p, but its still 540p, its not going to look anywhere as good as the 2k or 4k modes. - Source

The kits do not do any noninteger scaling, and sharpness was more of a test of analog signal quality. With exact pixel mapping over a fully digital interface, perfect sharpness is expected. Here are two images from the 39" version running the requested sharpness test. As you can see, the pixel mapping is perfect and my phone is a potato. http://imgur.com/gallery/zGBhp - Source

Why 540p480hz instead of 1080p480hz?

I'll paste the answer from a similar question here : For an explanation on why 480hz won't work at 4k: Because the limitation on the high refresh rate modes is not on the input bandwidth.
LCDs are made with an array of pixels on the glass, row drivers along the left/right side, and column drivers along the top or bottom. The column drivers have a seperate digital to analog converter for every column in the dislpay (3840*3 subpixels). Pixel values are loaded in, converted to analog, then connected to the output pin. The row drivers make a high voltage pulse each time the line driver is done with a conversion. The pulse causes each pixel in the row to capture the analog value from its column and save it in a capcitor until the next time the line is pulsed.
In the x28 and x39 displays, the column driver is capable of around 276 thousand lines per second. At 4k, that's 276000/2160=127.7, roughly 120Hz. For lower resolutions, the image is scaled horizontally, but the vertical scaling is done by tricking the row drivers to pulse more than one row at a time. The column drivers are doing the exact same job, but instead of 276000/2160, you get 276000/1080=255Hz. That's why the system can't do 4k@480Hz. For higher line rates, you need either faster digital to analog converters or to split the panel into top/bottom or even rows odd rows and double the number of DAC channels that can be used. This is not done for cost reasons. The last display that I've seen this technique used on was the IBM T221 which was a 3840*2400 display from 2001 which came out with a ~35K usd pricetag iirc. It was an interesting display, truly pushing the boundaries of lcd tech at the time. - Source

Every line must be driven every frame, so no black bars along the top or bottom. The game render engine should be aware of this, at the very least through FOV manipulation.

The limitation on refresh rate is three-fold
1) Line clock. Above a certain line clock, lines may fail to register and the entire image glitches out. 276KHz, that's the main limiter here.
2) Data clock to the DACs. Above a certain datarate, the DACs will glitch out.
3) Charge transfer from DAC to line to pixel. RC delays here set fixed time limitations. If sufficient time is not given, pixels will never reach their final voltage levels and the image will appear to have a really skewed gamma curve. - Source

Wait, Engineering Sample/Prototype?

The strong disclaimers are because the unit does not have the certifications necessary to legally sell it to consumers in the US or other countries. I can legally sell it as test equipment to professionals for lab use, provided that the terms of sale place all the legal burden on them for things like safety and emissions.
If sales are strong enough, I will put the unit through an FCC approved testing lab for Declaration of Conformity testing which would allow sales to regular home users. I have designed the unit carefully and do expect it to pass testing. If it does, then I can remove most of the legal jargon from the terms of sale.
The TCON has been designed with freesync in mind, but the chips used on the DP2LVDS boards do not support freesync, so at this time, freesync is not an option. Sorry, I tried many options but just didn't get it working. - Source

I have to market it that way right now because it doesn't have any certifications. If things go really well, I'll get the certs done.
The DP chips that are used don't support freesync, not going to happen on this release, sorry. I've burned months trying various options to get dynamic refresh rates working. -Source

The big players do a lot to advance monitor tech, but its almost all in the direction of making it cheaper to make.
The hardware is probably consumer-ready today, but I need to spend a couple grand to get the certs. Not going to do that if there aren't enough sales. - Source

Differences between the Linus Tech Tips & Blur Busters review samples and the 'full display' version of the 28".

Production units will have loctite on the screws, a fully covered backing with no exposed electronics, and higher quality cables that hopefully won't break after shipping.
Check out the render at zisworks.com/#x28 - Source

Support, warranty?

I'm offering 1 year warranty, so I'm going to make extra boards as replacements. After the initial one year, I can offer these for sale again. You don't need to keep a spare kit yourself. - Source

What happened with the Linus Tech Tips unit?

It would have been better if fedex didn't vibrate the crap out of it

The video cables connecting the secondary DP2LVDS to the TCON were damaged. That's why it worked fine in single-input mode and only glitched in dual-input on the right half.
The screws didn't have any loctite on them, but they were secure when the monitor was packed. That same vibration probably damaged the cables, they weren't taped down and are more on the fragile side. - Source

Update 2 ------- 09/03/2017
Current Schedule - New order end date is September 16, 2017

Hi everyone,
The original order window for this release was Aug17-31, corresponding to the expected release date of the LTT video. There were some issues with the LTT video (technical and the unit was damaged in shipping), so the idea of reshooting was thrown around. The final decision is that an annotated version of the original LTT video will be posted. I'm not sure when it will come out, though I expect soon.

I'll be extending the order window and pushing back the release schedule to accommodate for these delays.

When it comes time to pack and ship, I will prioritize earlier orders.

Thanks for your support and sorry for the bad news.

Got a date for the LTT video. 03 September. I've adjusted the schedule on http://zisworks.com/shop.html . Orders will be accepted until the 16th and I'll pay a bit more to bring the pcb manufacture time down from two weeks to one. Overall delay from the initial schedule should be around a week.

-x28/x39 user Google Groups communication

Alternative Backlight Modes

Scanning is available at 4k120. Push one button to enable or disable it. Scanning is similar to strobing, but does not require the long vertical blanking periods. Blurbusters will have good coverage of the feature, I've been working to add additional flexibility to the firmware to make their testing easier. -Source

Will the panels in the X28 go through any sort of checks for excessive backlight bleeding or other noticeable defects?

Good question.
I'll be buying A grade panels and each unit will be tested. I'm not sure what the optimal policy here is, but I won't ship anything that looks bad. There is some level of acceptable imperfection, but I'm not sure what that is just yet.
That said, in recent years, panel makers have gotten a lot better at reducing defects, so dead pixels and such are much less of a problem than they have been in the past. Not enough to call it a non-issue, but enough to take a wait-and-see approach. -Source

 

[Durante]

I'd love to get one of these, but it seems impossible to source the V390DK1-LS1 panels in Europe

I even contacted the creator, but he also doesn't know any solution to that.

If anyone has a way to obtain one of those panels, please do let me know.

(By the way, it's amazing what can be done with existing technology when someone gives a shit. I've been saying for a few years that we could have 240 Hz 1080p DLP projectors for gaming if any company cared, maybe someone is building one in their backyard )

 

[dark10x]

I'd love to get one of these, but it seems impossible to source the V390DK1-LS1 panels in Europe

I even contacted the creator, but he also doesn't know any solution to that.

If anyone has a way to obtain one of those panels, please do let me know.

(By the way, it's amazing what can be done with existing technology when someone gives a shit. I've been saying for a few years that we could have 240 Hz 1080p DLP projectors for gaming if any company cared, maybe someone is building one in their backyard )

I second this.

 

[The Dear Leader]

Woah, I need to see that in person, it sounds incredible.

 

[copelandmaster]

I'd love to get one of these, but it seems impossible to source the V390DK1-LS1 panels in Europe

I even contacted the creator, but he also doesn't know any solution to that.

If anyone has a way to obtain one of those panels, please do let me know.

(By the way, it's amazing what can be done with existing technology when someone gives a shit. I've been saying for a few years that we could have 240 Hz 1080p DLP projectors for gaming if any company cared, maybe someone is building one in their backyard )

This is all I've found this week
https://world.taobao.com/item/36880681595.htm?
fromSite=main&spm=a230r.1.14.6.76bf5237145WR&ns=1&abbucket=18#detail
https://world.taobao.com/item/43325071177.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a230r.1.14.1.76bf5237145WR&ns=1&abbucket=18#detail
import fees :X

 

[Durante]

Even hating TN as much as I do I'm tempted to get the full 28" one just because the concept is so neat.

Edit:
I just read that it can do 3840x1080p @ 240Hz. That's a pretty big deal (as long as you are playing a game which allows you to adjust aspect ratio independently of resolution).

 

[copelandmaster]

Wow, haven't seen that. That means black bars, right? Might be worth trying out when I get my 28".

I'm super exited for the strobing tests. If this thing can beat the current 144hz lock that ULMB has, it'll be the goat.

 

[Knurek]

Even hating TN as much as I do I'm tempted to get the full 28" one just because the concept is so neat.

Edit:
I just read that it can do 3840x1080p @ 240Hz. That's a pretty big deal (as long as you are playing a game which allows you to adjust aspect ratio independently of resolution).

No G-Sync module though, it's not like there's a GPU out there which will be able to drive this resolution at this framerate all the time.

 

[Durante]

Wow, haven't seen that. That means black bars, right? Might be worth trying out when I get my 28".

I was thinking more about doing anamoprhic rendering. (that is, rendering the whole image in a 16:9 aspect ratio and displaying it on the whole monitor, but at 3840*1080 resolution)

No G-Sync module though, it's not like there's a GPU out there which will be able to drive this resolution at this framerate all the time.

At 240 Hz I don't really care much. I'm not someone who can see the <4ms fluctuations caused by fastsync at that refresh rate.

 

[Knurek]

At 240 Hz I don't really care much. I'm not someone who can see the <4ms fluctuations caused by fastsync at that refresh rate.

Doesn't fastsync cause problems with a lot of games?

 

[copelandmaster]

I was thinking more about doing anamoprhic rendering. (that is, rendering the whole image in a 16:9 aspect ratio and displaying it on the whole monitor, but at 3840*1080 resolution).

I've seen cirthix mention something about rectangular pixels when not rendering one of the default resolutions (?), somewhere on the net this week, but I can't remember where... maybe the BB thread... probably in response to someone asking about 1440p...

Though I suppose with open source access, that's not something you'd be worried about.

EDIT: Here we go

Some interesting custom modes would be:
2160*2160@120Hz (max single input)
3840*1080@240Hz (dual input, rectangular pixels)
3840*720@300Hz (dual input, rectangular pixels)
3840*540@480Hz (dual input, rectangular pixels)
1920*1080@144Hz with large vertical blanking for strobing
1920*1080@120Hz with enormous vertical blanking for strobing

 

[Durante]

Doesn't fastsync cause problems with a lot of games?

Why would it? It's just triple buffering.

(If there were reports of problems I'd assume that most of them are due to people running it on 60 Hz displays and getting bad frame judder)

I've seen cirthix mention something about rectangular pixels when not rendering one of the default resolutions, somewhere on the net this week, but I can't remember where... maybe the BB thread... probably in response to someone asking about 1440p...

Though I suppose with open source access, that's not something you're worried about.

I think what you remember is about scaling. The HW can only do integer scaling, but that's not a problem for 3840x1080. (It's 1:1 scaling in X and 2:1 scaling in Y)

Apparently it can also do 3840x540 @ 480 Hz, but that's getting a bit ridiculous

 

[copelandmaster]

Update 2 ------- 09/03/2017

Linus Tech Tips Video

Current Schedule - New order end date is September 16, 2017

Hi everyone,
The original order window for this release was Aug17-31, corresponding to the expected release date of the LTT video. There were some issues with the LTT video (technical and the unit was damaged in shipping), so the idea of reshooting was thrown around. The final decision is that an annotated version of the original LTT video will be posted. I'm not sure when it will come out, though I expect soon.

I'll be extending the order window and pushing back the release schedule to accommodate for these delays.

When it comes time to pack and ship, I will prioritize earlier orders.

Thanks for your support and sorry for the bad news.

Got a date for the LTT video. 03 September. I've adjusted the schedule on http://zisworks.com/shop.html . Orders will be accepted until the 16th and I'll pay a bit more to bring the pcb manufacture time down from two weeks to one. Overall delay from the initial schedule should be around a week.

-x28/x39 user Google Groups communication

Alternative Backlight Modes

Scanning is available at 4k120. Push one button to enable or disable it. Scanning is similar to strobing, but does not require the long vertical blanking periods. Blurbusters will have good coverage of the feature, I've been working to add additional flexibility to the firmware to make their testing easier. -Source

Will the panels in the X28 go through any sort of checks for excessive backlight bleeding or other noticeable defects?

Good question.
I'll be buying A grade panels and each unit will be tested. I'm not sure what the optimal policy here is, but I won't ship anything that looks bad. There is some level of acceptable imperfection, but I'm not sure what that is just yet.
That said, in recent years, panel makers have gotten a lot better at reducing defects, so dead pixels and such are much less of a problem than they have been in the past. Not enough to call it a non-issue, but enough to take a wait-and-see approach. -Source

EDIT: 19 minute demonstration of an early version of the x39
EDIT2: Zisworks ZWS 4K 120Hz: The making-of