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[Daeda]

In light of this discussion, anyone in the Netherlands remember this?

These candies (it's chocolate filled with whipped cream), used to be called Negerzoenen, which translates to Negro Kisses. They changed the name to just Zoenen (Kisses) a couple of years ago due to the racial connotations of the name.

Actually, they changed the name for publicity. All of the sudden Negerzoenen were all over the news. Gave them a huge sales boost. Very smart marketing (and a good update besides)

 

[Metrotab]

I always celebrated both Christmas and Sinterklaas as a kid, and got presents both time. When you get older Sinterklaas loses more and more importance in favor of Christmas (mostly because the family gets together at a dinner).

I actually saw Sinterklaas already at a clothing store, long line of rows with kids which meant actual service was really fast.

EDIT: And negerzoenen are the same as Melo Cakes, right?

 

[wes-]

Silly Dutch thinking people give a damn outside Netherlands.

 

[bengraven]

You know, if he was an EASTER mascot, it would be easily explained.

He's made of white chocolate covered in a thin layer of dark chocolate.

 

[Des0lar]

Racism sucks, I mean if you want to go as a black celebrity or character for helloween (example), you can't even darken your skin, because it is racist. I don't really know what the general consensus is on black people who want to go as white people?

The original blackface was disgusting of course, but I don't really get how painting your face black is in itself a racist act. Maybe this is because I am from Europe and we never really talk about stuff like blackface in school or anywhere else really. Someone care to educate me?
Zwarte Piet though still uses some of the old steroetypes like big red lips etc... don't know what to think about that.

 

[Blue Ninja]

You know, if he was an EASTER mascot, it would be easily explained.

He's made of white chocolate covered in a thin layer of dark chocolate.

And now he's covered in soot from the chimneys he has to climb in.

 

[Souldriver]

I'm sorry, but who is that crappy looking Sinterklaas with the dollar signs on his miter?

Bram van der Vlugt is the only real Sinterklaas. Fact.

Oh please. That guy with the perfectly wavy fake rug to cover up his shitty mug. That ain't Sinterklaas, man. And why is a black Nelly Frijda standing next to him?


Go watch Dag Sinterklaasje and you'll see that is Sinterklaas. Especially that he can act like a childish brat makes him awesome, haha.

 

[Danielsan]

And now he's covered in soot from the chimneys he has to climb in.

Which really needs updating as well, because who the fuck has a chimney these days? I remember finding the whole ordeal to be questionable as a little kid as well.

 

[Viewt]

And now he's covered in soot from the chimneys he has to climb in.

Right, but why would the soot make his lips bright red or frizz up his hair?

I understand that the story's been altered to make it less offensive, so why not just alter it further to not make him a dude in blackface with cherry-red lips and a cartoonish afro? He can still hand out candy and whatnot.

I'm not Dutch or Belgian, so my only context for this is the annual GAF threads. I understand that, for many of you, this is a cherished childhood memory, and you don't want those memories tainted by something as unseemly as racism.

That being said, if a lot of your citizens (and many of your black citizens, at that) are offended at the custom, what's the harm in changing it? You still get the holiday, and by changing a few details, you still get the character. He's just not a guy in blackface. And that's, I think, where a lot of the arguing comes from. Dutch posters being so resistent to changing the blackface, that it might be misunderstood as you guys clinging to that feature for its own sake. And I don't think wanting to see people in blackface for "tradition's" sake is very defensible.

Again, this is a foreign custom to me outside these yearly threads, so I'm always willing to hear more sides to the story. But as of now, especially when I see videos of black people who are offended by the custom, I can't see myself supporting it.

 

[bengraven]

And now he's covered in soot from the chimneys he has to climb in.

Wull issa foin day Mary Puppins, it is.

 

[Half and half]

If no offense is meant and none is taken by the majority of Dutch people, then I'm okay with Zwarte Piet. It doesn't matter to me if he's black from soot or racist origins.

 

[TedNindo]

If no offense is meant and none is taken by the majority of Dutch people, then I'm okay with Zwarte Piet.

I'm sure hardly any offense is taken by anyone in Belgium or Holland. Atleast I've never met or known anyone. It also wasn't a topic by any media as far as I can remember. I'm sure some overly PC group has brought it up. But I can't remember.

 

[Daeda]

That being said, if a lot of your citizens (and many of your black citizens, at that) are offended at the custom, what's the harm in changing it? You still get the holiday, and by changing a few details, you still get the character. He's just not a guy in blackface. And that's, I think, where a lot of the arguing comes from. Dutch posters being so resistent to changing the blackface, that it might be misunderstood as you guys clinging to that feature for its own sake. And I don't think wanting to see people in blackface for "tradition's" sake is very defensible.

The main problem I have with changing it isnt so much rooted in traditionalism, but more in the fact that Sinterklaas is a childrens holiday. First of all, they are oblivious to the racial undertones and see Zwarte Piet as generally a positive role model. But more importantly, changing it might destroy the holiday as a whole. Not because Zwarte Piet being black is of so much importance, but because its a make believe figure. If Santa Claus was played by a black guy all of the sudden, kids would notice too. Changing it will destroy the make believe of Sinterklaas and Im not sure if you'd be able to restore the Sinterklaas feast if you throw away an entire generation of children with respect to make believe..

 

[ComputerMKII]

Everything is racist, sexist and everything anyway. I wish people stopped annoying everybody and find better things to be outraged about.

 

[Souldriver]

Right, but why would the soot make his lips bright red or frizz up his hair?

I understand that the story's been altered to make it less offensive, so why not just alter it further to not make him a dude in blackface with cherry-red lips and a cartoonish afro? He can still hand out candy and whatnot.

I'm not Dutch or Belgian, so my only context for this is the annual GAF threads. I understand that, for many of you, this is a cherished childhood memory, and you don't want those memories tainted by something as unseemly as racism.

That being said, if a lot of your citizens (and many of your black citizens, at that) are offended at the custom, what's the harm in changing it? You still get the holiday, and by changing a few details, you still get the character. He's just not a guy in blackface. And that's, I think, where a lot of the arguing comes from. Dutch posters being so resistent to changing the blackface, that it might be misunderstood as you guys clinging to that feature for its own sake. And I don't think wanting to see people in blackface for "tradition's" sake is very defensible.

Again, this is a foreign custom to me outside these yearly threads, so I'm always willing to hear more sides to the story. But as of now, especially when I see videos of black people who are offended by the custom, I can't see myself supporting it.

The origin of the story has definitely a racial dimension. Sinterklaas was a saint who freed slaves from northern Africa or something like that.

Important to keep in mind is that -especially at face value- the racist dimension is completely lost to the population. Sinterklaas is an awesome old man and his black servants are funny and do acrobatics and give you candy and presents. As a little kid, what's there not to like about the black "pieten"? The color of their skin is irrelevant to kids. They don't even understand the concept of racism. And blackface, and its connotations, are completely lost to the Dutch and Belgians. Blackface is a product of American history first and foremost. American people commenting on Sinterklaas should keep that in mind.

But having said that, I still used "the black servants of an old white man" in my explanation. And that is simply not a good image to display to your population, especially children. So yes, I do agree we should keep on altering the story of Sinterklaas so that this racist dimension is gone. For all I care, you paint the faces of the pieten in all kinds of colors. And do the same with their hair. Or you know, don't paint the face at all and have the pieten have their natural skin color. The black pieten seem like a given to older Belgians/Dutch because they were there in our childhood and we didn't "turn out racist". And a persons childhood is sacred. But we all have to ask ourselves: if you did away with the black pieten, would it make this holiday any less awesome for the kids? Nope. So I say we change this tradtion, as has been done many times throughout history.

 

[R0nn]

Oh please. That guy with the perfectly wavy fake rug to cover up his shitty mug. That ain't Sinterklaas, man. And why is a black Nelly Frijda standing next to him?


Go watch Dag Sinterklaasje and you'll see that is Sinterklaas. Especially that he can act like a childish brat makes him awesome, haha.

This thread is now about who is the real Sinterklaas

 

[Slayven]

I don't care about this. It just when people lump it into why people shouldn't be insulted by true racism that it is troubling.

 

[Zabka]

Stealth Doutzen Kroes thread

The main problem I have with changing it isnt so much rooted in traditionalism, but more in the fact that Sinterklaas is a childrens holiday. First of all, they are oblivious to the racial undertones and see Zwarte Piet as generally a positive role model. But more importantly, changing it might destroy the holiday as a whole. Not because Zwarte Piet being black is of so much importance, but because its a make believe figure. If Santa Claus was played by a black guy all of the sudden, kids would notice too. Changing it will destroy the make believe of Sinterklaas and Im not sure if you'd be able to restore the Sinterklaas feast if you throw away an entire generation of children with respect to make believe..

Kids young enough to believe in fantasy characters wouldn't care. They just want presents and junk food.

 

[Metrotab]

I've tried searching for articles on Zwarte Piet to see if there were any controversies, but unfortunately 'zwarte pieten' has been a much-used expression in Belgian politics the past years.

 

[Sickboy007]

I've tried searching for articles on Zwarte Piet to see if there were any controversies, but unfortunately 'zwarte pieten' has been a much-used expression in Belgian politics the past years.

Standing for what?

 

[Canis lupus]

I remember I got punished by my teacher for telling lil kids Sinterklaas don't exist lol.

 

[The Faceless Master]

The main problem I have with changing it isnt so much rooted in traditionalism, but more in the fact that Sinterklaas is a childrens holiday. First of all, they are oblivious to the racial undertones and see Zwarte Piet as generally a positive role model. But more importantly, changing it might destroy the holiday as a whole. Not because Zwarte Piet being black is of so much importance, but because its a make believe figure. If Santa Claus was played by a black guy all of the sudden, kids would notice too. Changing it will destroy the make believe of Sinterklaas and Im not sure if you'd be able to restore the Sinterklaas feast if you throw away an entire generation of children with respect to make believe..

if anything, Zwarte Piet are a good role model for young children! They show that dark sooted people can be friendly, kind, gentle, fun loving and hard working.

 

[Metrotab]

Standing for what?

Passing the blame, often used when two or more political parties are responsible for a bad incident.

"Zwarte piet" here refers to the Black Jack in cards, not Zwarte Piet from Sinterklaas.

 

[Daeda]

Kids young enough to believe in fantasy characters wouldn't care. They just want presents and junk food.

I think that's a bit naive to assume. I'm not saying you cant phase Zwarte Piet out.. but in any case you cant do it in a single year and it requires a lot of planning to do so. In the Netherlands I currently don't see enough public support to make such a transition successful.

 

[R0nn]

As a sidenote, "Zwartepieten" is also a card game. There's even a saying related to it.

Passing the blame, often used when two or more political parties are responsible for a bad incident.

"Zwarte piet" here refers to the Black Jack in cards, not Zwarte Piet from Sinterklaas.

This.

 

[Canis lupus]

"Sinterklaas is originally from Turkey, not Spain!" I used to debate.

 

[Zabka]

I think that's a bit naive to assume. I'm not saying you cant phase Zwarte Piet out.. but in any case you cant do it in a single year and it requires a lot of planning to do so. In the Netherlands I currently don't see enough public support to make such a transition successful.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say kids are oblivious to the racial aspects and then say they are too observant to let you change a fantasy character's skin color without getting upset or...? Come to think of it I'm not really sure what the consequences are that you're implying. It's the adults who are upset by this discussion.

If you're telling kids that he's black because of soot just say he's not black because there are a lot less chimneys. Or he took a bath. Kids are dumb, they accept what their parents tell them.

 

[R0nn]

At Nedermeme (Dutch equivalent of 9gag/Reddit) someone just posted a really applicable image for this thread. I'm not sure if I should post it here though, risking a ban and all.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

It's not racist, they are just covered in soot!

 

[itsgreen]

You can't have it both ways. You can't say kids are oblivious to the racial aspects and then say they are too observant to let you change a fantasy character's skin color without getting upset or...?

That is a stupid thing to say.

If something changes from one day to the next of course children notice.

 

[Zabka]

That is a stupid thing to say.

If something changes from one day to the next of course children notice.

I didn't say they wouldn't.

 

[freenudemacusers]

I don't see what the big deal is, every time I climb through a chimney my lips get red, my skin becomes chocolate, and my hair gets really frizzy. Every. Time.

 

[dragonelite]

My whole childhood never thought zwarte piet was racist.
Then i came on the internet seems whole world thinks its racist and that is why little children cant have fun.

 

[HollovVpo1nt]

At Nedermeme (Dutch equivalent of 9gag/Reddit) someone just posted a really applicable image for this thread. I'm not sure if I should post it here though, risking a ban and all.

PM plox

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Surely they can find real black people somewhere these days?

 

[Canis lupus]

Meh, I like sint maarten day a lot more, free candies if you sing a song!

 

[Stet]

My whole childhood never thought zwarte piet was racist.
Then i came on the internet seems whole world thinks its racist and that is why little children cant have fun.

Little Dutch kids in South Africa never thought their parents' servants were treated unfairly either. Damn anti-Apartheidists!

 

[itsgreen]

Little Dutch kids in South Africa never thought their parents' servants were treated unfairly either. Damn anti-Apartheidists!

Yes because that is exactly this!

 

[Dreams-Visions]

My whole childhood never thought zwarte piet was racist.
Then i came on the internet seems whole world thinks its racist and that is why little children cant have fun.

When I was a child I didn't think the mammys in those old Looney Toons cartoons were racist either.

In fact, I didn't know what racism was. Fortunately, they stopped showing reruns of those cartoons.

I don't have an opinion on this because I don't really understand it or know the motivations behind its genesis. If it was originally created to in part depict black people in a negative way, maybe they should address that. If not, maybe it could be made clearer still. Maybe hire actual black people living in the country now, for example.

 

[agrajag]

their Santa Claus looks like the Pope or something, that's so cray

 

[Divius]

Sinterklaasje, bonne bonne bonne.

 

[itsgreen]

their Santa Claus looks like the Pope or something, that's so cray

To get things straight, your Santa Claus looks like our Sinterklaas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus

The modern figure was derived from the Dutch figure of Sinterklaas,[2] which, in turn, may have part of its basis in hagiographical tales concerning the historical figure of gift giver Saint Nicholas.

 

[TheOddOne]

Quickly chiming in as a Dutchie.

Sinterklaas and Zwartepiet aren't really Christmas characters. They're part of their own separate holiday.

As the years have gone by and I've spend more time on the internet, my point of view towards this divisive subject has changed somewhat. For instance, years ago I was completely oblivious to the existence of the concept "black face". While I don't believe that the current use of Zwartepiet has any racist connotations, the tradition did have its roots in racism and the imagery of Zwartepiet probably still holds a great deal of offensiveness to a lot of people.

As far as I'm concerned there is no reason to not update the "look" of Zwartepiet whilst still maintaining the rest of the traditions surrounding the festivities. There is certainly no good reason to hold on to the racist imagery other than "Well it's tradition". Afterall, the kids really don't care about the colour of their skin, they care about their funny antics, the sweets and the gifts.

This all.

 

[agrajag]

To get things straight, your Santa Claus looks like our Sinterklaas

No he doesn't. Ours looks chill, like he doesn't give a fuck about religion, yours looks like a priest

 

[Stet]

Yes because that is exactly this!

I didn't say it was. The point is that maybe we shouldn't make decisions about what is or isn't appropriate based on what's fun for kids.

 

[scar tissue]

Is there a historical area of racist blackface activity in the Netherlands and Belgium?

Or is the controversy due to American cultural hegemony being as widespread as it is, so that this activity can't be helped but viewed through the lens of historical American racism?

Came here to post this.

 

[Kiraly]

Fuck yeah Sinterklaas

Any Dutch kid his/her favourite time of the year

Boo the fucking PC groups

 

[Big Baybee]

As a black dude in America, I do raise an eyebrow when I see white folks in blackface with big red lips and frizzy wigs.

I don't really know much about the tradition, though. How do blacks in the country feel about it?

 

[itsgreen]

As a black dude in America, I do raise an eyebrow when I see white folks in blackface with big red lips and frizzy wigs.

I don't really know much about the tradition, though. How do blacks in the country feel about it?

Mixed bag, some like it, some don't.. no real consensus

 

[Goldrusher]

As a black dude in America, I do raise an eyebrow when I see white folks in blackface with big red lips and frizzy wigs.

I don't really know much about the tradition, though. How do blacks in the country feel about it?

They're the biggest fans (note the black kids in the front rows):