Zwarte Piet 2012 |OT|

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Danielsan said:
Which really needs updating as well, because who the fuck has a chimney these days? I remember finding the whole ordeal to be questionable as a little kid as well.
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I had a chimney when I was a kid... But I think Zwarte Piet never fit. We probably have a lot of dead bodies in there now.

Viewt said:
Again, this is a foreign custom to me outside these yearly threads, so I'm always willing to hear more sides to the story. But as of now, especially when I see videos of black people who are offended by the custom, I can't see myself supporting it.
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I, personally, haven't met any black man or woman offended by it. It's undoubtedly different elsewhere, but here, people don't seem to care.
 
Most of what I read about the Dutch deals with how many are often extremely racist so I'm not really surprised that people there don't care what kind of overtones their holiday tradition has. Just kind of sad that the people that actually bring it up to discuss appear to be shouted down by their fellow countrymen.
 
Big Baybee said:
As a black dude in America, I do raise an eyebrow when I see white folks in blackface with big red lips and frizzy wigs.

I don't really know much about the tradition, though. How do blacks in the country feel about it?
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Personal experience tells me that black children do not make any connections with Zwarte Piet being some caricature or portrayal of a black guy, nor have I ever heard of any white kids doing that either. Their parents also don't seem to mind it, they usually celebrate Sinterklaas like any other native Dutch family.

But that's just personal experience, possibly not a clear representation of how it is in the Netherlands.
 
So what's the deal. Is it true that the legend is that the Zwart Piet fell through a chimney and is covered in coal and not actually a black person? Or is that just a cover up for the racism?
 
Jackben said:
Most of what I read about the Dutch deals with how many are often extremely racist so I'm not really surprised that they don't care what kind of overtones their holiday tradition has.
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I'm sure there's many, yes, but no more than in other countries.

agrajag said:
So what's the deal. Is it true that the legend is that the Zwart Piet fell through a chimney and is covered in coal and not actually a black person? Or is that just a cover up for the racism?
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That's the thing: it's different for everyone.
 
My mom sent me a package from the Netherlands, like she does every year. She usually includes traditional candies common there around this time of year. The wrapping paper tends to have some zwarte pieten on it, which cracks up my coworkers here in the US.
 
Jackben said:
Most of what I read about the Dutch deals with how many are often extremely racist so I'm not really surprised that they don't care what kind of overtones their holiday tradition has.
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Many are extremely racist because one woman made a mistake? She didn't know the word she used was racist, she actually called herself that word too, in the same magazine, because she thought it was a cool thing. Plus, she lost her job over it.
 
Blue Ninja said:
I'm sure there's many, yes, but no more than in other countries.
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I realise that's the reality of the situation and I mean no offence to the Dutch, I just have to scratch my head at the frequency of articles or discussions about the Dutch when it comes to people getting offended. Islamic stuff comes into play here too. You guys seem to just have some people that really don't care or even enjoy pissing people off, lol.
 
Trojita said:
The excuse that Zwarte Piet looks bad because in retrospect because of America's past and blackface in early movie industry pervading on a world wide scale is funny because technically Europe did blackface before the USA.

"It's not racist because I grew up with it as a kid and I don't think its racist!"

So the question then becomes is Mr. Popo racist?
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Yes, he's fucking racist.

Not only is he in black face, but in the Japanese cartoon, he speaks broken Japanese and has been content being Kami's (and other Earth Guardian's) servant and grounds keeper for hundreds to thousands of years. He's a fucking immortal slave.
 
Jackben said:
Most of what I read about the Dutch deals with how many are often extremely racist so I'm not really surprised that people there don't care what kind of overtones their holiday tradition has. Just kind of sad that the people that actually bring it up to discuss appear to be shouted down by their fellow countrymen.
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All based on a single person? Who herself got fired over it and even called herself a "nigga" because she thought it was cool?

She just picked up something from the American rap/hip hop scene she sees on the telly and used it in an article.
 
soepje said:
? She didn't know the word she used was racist,
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See, this is the crux of this whole discussion. "Didn't know it could be seen as racist" is the shield people are holding up for this outdated tradition. I don't understand the anger and rejection of proposals to alter it to make the holiday more inclusive and less questionable.
 
agrajag said:
So what's the deal. Is it true that the legend is that the Zwart Piet fell through a chimney and is covered in coal and not actually a black person? Or is that just a cover up for the racism?
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They came up with that bullshit origin story after being called out for racism. In reality, he's a dark skinned devil in Moorish clothing, who was defeated by Sinterklaas and made to be his servant. And the fact that people believe the bullshit origin story is laughable, considering the last time I looked, chimney soot doesn't morph a white person's hair into a nappy fro, nor does it make their lips large and red.
 
itsgreen said:
Not really, he just 'is' for a large part...
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Come on guys thats not true lol

Piet was originally a demon that was enslaved by sinter klaas and would do his bidding. Piet was originally the character that would punish kids for being bad either by flogging/whipping them and/or kidnapping them and taking them away to another country. (pieten still carry the weapon but dutch people pretend its for something else now)

Over the years mostly with the mass introduction of surinamers 30ish years ago the tradtion has changed.

Even with the mix of tradtions that ended up with the dutch version.... Most if not all of the origins portray Pieten in a bad light
 
Jackben said:
Either way, I don't understand the anger and rejection of proposals to alter it to make the holiday more inclusive and less questionable.
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Why change something that isn't being perceived as racist by people, children and adults alike, or really doesn't have any negative meaning toward black people...
 
methane47 said:
Come on guys thats not true lol

Piet was originally a demon that was enslaved by sinter klaas and would do his bidding. Piet was originally the character that would punish kids for being bad either by flogging/whipping them and/or kidnapping them and taking them away to another country. (pieten still carry the weapon but dutch people pretend its for something else now)

Over the years mostly with the mass introduction of surinamers 30ish years ago the tradtion has changed.

Even with the mix of tradtions that ended up with the dutch version.... Most if not all of the origins portray Pieten in a bad light
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Those aren't the stories being told. So for children, he just is for a large part. The origins stories aren't really told, and if there is one predominant story it's that he's black because of chimneys
 
harSon said:
They came up with that bullshit origin story after being called out for racism. In reality, he's a dark skinned devil in Moorish clothing, who was defeated by Sinterklaas and made to be his servant. And the fact that people believe the bullshit origin story is laughable, considering the last time I looked, chimney soot doesn't morph a white person's hair into a nappy fro, nor does it make their lips large and red.
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dutch soot has a lot of magical properties
 
itsgreen said:
Why change something that isn't being perceived as racist by me and my people, and that I don't think has any negative meaning toward black people...
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FTFY

It's obvious some in your country think differently but if you don't care about possible racial overtones or making people uncomfortable, that's on you.
 
Jackben said:
I realise that's the reality of the situation and I mean no offence to the Dutch, I just have to scratch my head at the frequency of articles or discussions about the Dutch when it comes to people getting offended. Islamic stuff comes into play here too. You guys seem to just have some people that really don't care or even enjoy pissing people off, lol.
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There seem to be some Dutch guys who tend to be not politically correct and just say out in the open what is on their mind. And often it is on a lot of people's minds but they are afraid to say it in public. Which gets covered in the media because of its controversie in the current PC world.

I'm Belgian btw. And I'm sure that a lot of Americans would be offended by our television. Things are said over here on primetime tv that would cause an uproar in the US. On some points we just aren't as politically sensitive.

Its often hard for me to cope with the overal oversensitiveness on gaf btw. At times I'm afraid to voice my opinion.
 
Jackben said:
See, this is the crux of this whole discussion. "Didn't know it could be seen as racist" is the shield people are holding up for this outdated tradition. I don't understand the anger and rejection of proposals to alter it to make the holiday more inclusive and less questionable.
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But it's only questionable from certain perspectives. Why should the Dutch celebrate their traditions by following USA standards and believes?
 
Jackben said:
FTFY

It's obvious some in your country think differently but if you don't care about possible racial overtones or making people uncomfortable, that's on you.
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In general we don't care about offending people. But that's more in general, if it actually was actively racist, like painting black people in a bad light, people happily part with it.
 
Jackben said:
So why not update the modern Sinterklaas experience to get rid of people in blackface?
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Because there is no undercurrent to consider blackface offensive in this particular context (because we lack the historical context and perspective of its place in American entertainment), and hence no national debate about it. Since Sinterklaas is part of the shared cultural experience growing up, there is a conservative tendency to not alter the folklore, especially in wake of what is deemed 'unnecessary political correctness'.

That's the most succinct I can describe it.
 
Jackben said:
I realise that's the reality of the situation and I mean no offence to the Dutch, I just have to scratch my head at the frequency of articles or discussions about the Dutch when it comes to people getting offended. Islamic stuff comes into play here too. You guys seem to just have some people that really don't care or even enjoy pissing people off, lol.
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I'm not Dutch, but it's true for Flanders, as well. But I can't imagine it's any worse or better elsewhere: bigots can be found everywhere.

Metrotab said:
Because there is no undercurrent to consider blackface offensive in this particular context (because we lack the historical context and perspective of its place in American entertainment), and hence no national debate about it. Since Sinterklaas is part of the shared cultural experience growing up, there is a conservative tendency to not alter the folklore, especially in wake of what is deemed 'unnecessary political correctness'.

That's the most succinct I can describe it.
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Pretty much, yeah.
 
Metrotab said:
Because there is no undercurrent to consider blackface offensive in this particular context (because we lack the historical context and perspective of its place in American entertainment), and hence no national debate about it. Since Sinterklaas is part of the shared cultural experience growing up, there is a conservative tendency to not alter the folklore, especially in wake of what is deemed 'unnecessary political correctness'.

That's the most succinct I can describe it.
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I may not agree but I understand. Thanks for putting it so succinctly. In most cases preserving traditions is a positive thing even if I disagree in this case. But I won't let my American viewpoint dictate how you run your country. All I can do is voice concern or disapproval, up to you guys to determine what happens in your country. I think in most contexts the tendency to simply speak your mind would be a refreshingly honest trait to experience. I do want to get around to visiting at some point.
 
methane47 said:
Come on guys thats not true lol

Piet was originally a demon that was enslaved by sinter klaas and would do his bidding. Piet was originally the character that would punish kids for being bad either by flogging/whipping them and/or kidnapping them and taking them away to another country. (pieten still carry the weapon but dutch people pretend its for something else now)

Over the years mostly with the mass introduction of surinamers 30ish years ago the tradtion has changed.

Even with the mix of tradtions that ended up with the dutch version.... Most if not all of the origins portray Pieten in a bad light
Click to expand...

so it finally comes out, heh.
 
Metrotab said:
Because there is no undercurrent to consider blackface offensive in this particular context (because we lack the historical context and perspective of its place in American entertainment), and hence no national debate about it. Since Sinterklaas is part of the shared cultural experience growing up, there is a conservative tendency to not alter the folklore, especially in wake of what is deemed 'unnecessary political correctness'.

That's the most succinct I can describe it.
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See this is the issue. Indigenous dutch people think that the racist aspect of zwarte piet is SOLEY because of the black paint. And no that is not it. Black paint on the face is not intrinsically racist. The problem is that it is ONLY black paint. And with the black paint comes red lips and curly hair. And ONLY people of that description are the lesser beings that must do the bidding of his white master. Zwarte piet is not racist because of the paint. Zwarte piet is racist because singles out a specific race of people and portrays them as servants.
 
methane47 said:
See this is the issue. Indigenous dutch people think that the racist aspect of zwarte piet is SOLEY because of the black paint. And no that is not it. Black paint on the face is not intrinsically racist. The problem is that it is ONLY black paint. And with the black paint comes red lips and curly hair. And ONLY people of that description are the lesser beings that must do the bidding of his white master. Zwarte piet is not racist because of the paint. Zwarte piet is racist because singles out a specific race of people and portrays them as servants.
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Yeah that is your point of view. You tend to see Zwarte Piet as slaves...

I and most people in the Netherlands, and probably Belgium, just see them as helpers, assistants... it just happened to be that they are black and Sinterklaas is white. They aren't helpers because they are black, they are his helpers and happen to be black...

And I do know about the heritage, but that heritage isn't being told in the stories that are told to kids. So what people experience is a positive holiday with Zwarte Pieten who hand out presents and candy and assist Sinterklaas. So why change stuff because the origins that aren't prevalent anymore were racist. Because people are offended of the roots, even though the roots don't have anything to do with how it is experienced today? I consider that their problem and not mine.
 
methane47 said:
See this is the issue. Indigenous dutch people think that the racist aspect of zwarte piet is SOLEY because of the black paint. And no that is not it. Black paint on the face is not intrinsically racist. The problem is that it is ONLY black paint. And with the black paint comes red lips and curly hair. And ONLY people of that description are the lesser beings that must do the bidding of his white master. Zwarte piet is not racist because of the paint. Zwarte piet is racist because singles out a specific race of people and portrays them as servants.
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These nuances based on the historical origin are no longer present in the modern experience, however. Zwarte Pieten are intelligent and multi-faceted in their talents (often assigned a role, Transport-Piet, Package-Piet etc), and are assistants, not servants or slaves. They are not lesser or inferior. Sometimes there's a Head Piet who is like the right-hand man of Sinterklaas.

TedNindo said:
He gave a speech at the balcony of city hall. lol.
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Does he do this everytime? Or is this a comical reference to De Wever?
 
Dreams-Visions said:
Maybe hire actual black people living in the country now, for example.
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I don't really get how this would change anything. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing inherently racist about painting your face black, so surely Zwarte Piet would be considered just as racist regardless of whether he was played by a white guy or a black guy?
 
Big Baybee said:
So if the origin and role has evolved, why not get rid of the black paint, red lipstick and cotton wigs?
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I already answered this question, see:

Because there is no undercurrent to consider blackface offensive in this particular context (because we lack the historical context and perspective of its place in American entertainment), and hence no national debate about it. Since Sinterklaas is part of the shared cultural experience growing up, there is a conservative tendency to not alter the folklore, especially in wake of what is deemed 'unnecessary political correctness'.

That's the most succinct I can describe it.
Click to expand...
 
Metrotab said:
These nuances based on the historical origin are no longer present in the modern experience, however. Zwarte Pieten are intelligent and multi-faceted in their talents (often assigned a role, Transport-Piet, Package-Piet etc), and are assistants, not servants or slaves. They are not lesser or inferior. Sometimes there's a Head Piet who is like the right-hand man of Sinterklaas.



Does he do this everytime? Or is this a comical reference to De Wever?
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I think he does this every year. I couldn't help thinking of De Wever though.
But I remember this being a thing for years. I went there years ago as a kid and I remember it being almost the same. He arrives by boat and ends up at city hall.

Here's a video of last year.

http://www.deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/mediatheek/nieuws/binnenland/1.1153108

I noticed that the current mayor greets sinterklaas when he arrives lol. I wonder if De Wever will be doing so next year.
 
It's racist as fuck, and the fact that it's tradition doesn't make it any less so.
 
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