Dude Abides
Banned
Oh, that simple, mischievous darkie, what hijinks will he be up to next?
Mixed bag, some like it, some don't.. no real con senses
Which really needs updating as well, because who the fuck has a chimney these days? I remember finding the whole ordeal to be questionable as a little kid as well.
Again, this is a foreign custom to me outside these yearly threads, so I'm always willing to hear more sides to the story. But as of now, especially when I see videos of black people who are offended by the custom, I can't see myself supporting it.
Personal experience tells me that black children do not make any connections with Zwarte Piet being some caricature or portrayal of a black guy, nor have I ever heard of any white kids doing that either. Their parents also don't seem to mind it, they usually celebrate Sinterklaas like any other native Dutch family.As a black dude in America, I do raise an eyebrow when I see white folks in blackface with big red lips and frizzy wigs.
I don't really know much about the tradition, though. How do blacks in the country feel about it?
Most of what I read about the Dutch deals with how many are often extremely racist so I'm not really surprised that they don't care what kind of overtones their holiday tradition has.
So what's the deal. Is it true that the legend is that the Zwart Piet fell through a chimney and is covered in coal and not actually a black person? Or is that just a cover up for the racism?
Most of what I read about the Dutch deals with how many are often extremely racist so I'm not really surprised that they don't care what kind of overtones their holiday tradition has.
I'm sure there's many, yes, but no more than in other countries.
That's the thing: it's different for everyone.
Most of what I read about the Dutch deals with how many are often extremely racist so I'm not really surprised that they don't care what kind of overtones their holiday tradition has.
I don't get it. There has to be an origin to it, right?
I realise that's the reality of the situation and I mean no offence to the Dutch, I just have to scratch my head at the frequency of articles or discussions about the Dutch when it comes to people getting offended. Islamic stuff comes into play here too. You guys seem to just have some people that really don't care or even enjoy pissing people off, lol.I'm sure there's many, yes, but no more than in other countries.
The excuse that Zwarte Piet looks bad because in retrospect because of America's past and blackface in early movie industry pervading on a world wide scale is funny because technically Europe did blackface before the USA.
"It's not racist because I grew up with it as a kid and I don't think its racist!"
So the question then becomes is Mr. Popo racist?
All based on a single person? Who herself got fired over it and even called herself a "nigga" because she thought it was cool?Most of what I read about the Dutch deals with how many are often extremely racist so I'm not really surprised that people there don't care what kind of overtones their holiday tradition has. Just kind of sad that the people that actually bring it up to discuss appear to be shouted down by their fellow countrymen.
I don't get it. There has to be an origin to it, right?
See, this is the crux of this whole discussion. "Didn't know it could be seen as racist" is the shield people are holding up for this outdated tradition. I don't understand the anger and rejection of proposals to alter it to make the holiday more inclusive and less questionable.? She didn't know the word she used was racist,
So what's the deal. Is it true that the legend is that the Zwart Piet fell through a chimney and is covered in coal and not actually a black person? Or is that just a cover up for the racism?
Not really, he just 'is' for a large part...
Either way, I don't understand the anger and rejection of proposals to alter it to make the holiday more inclusive and less questionable.
Come on guys thats not true lol
Piet was originally a demon that was enslaved by sinter klaas and would do his bidding. Piet was originally the character that would punish kids for being bad either by flogging/whipping them and/or kidnapping them and taking them away to another country. (pieten still carry the weapon but dutch people pretend its for something else now)
Over the years mostly with the mass introduction of surinamers 30ish years ago the tradtion has changed.
Even with the mix of tradtions that ended up with the dutch version.... Most if not all of the origins portray Pieten in a bad light
dutch soot has a lot of magical propertiesThey came up with that bullshit origin story after being called out for racism. In reality, he's a dark skinned devil in Moorish clothing, who was defeated by Sinterklaas and made to be his servant. And the fact that people believe the bullshit origin story is laughable, considering the last time I looked, chimney soot doesn't morph a white person's hair into a nappy fro, nor does it make their lips large and red.
FTFYWhy change something that isn't being perceived as racist by me and my people, and that I don't think has any negative meaning toward black people...
So why not update the modern Sinterklaas experience to get rid of people in blackface?The origin stories aren't part of the modern Sinterklaas experience, though.
I realise that's the reality of the situation and I mean no offence to the Dutch, I just have to scratch my head at the frequency of articles or discussions about the Dutch when it comes to people getting offended. Islamic stuff comes into play here too. You guys seem to just have some people that really don't care or even enjoy pissing people off, lol.
But it's only questionable from certain perspectives. Why should the Dutch celebrate their traditions by following USA standards and believes?See, this is the crux of this whole discussion. "Didn't know it could be seen as racist" is the shield people are holding up for this outdated tradition. I don't understand the anger and rejection of proposals to alter it to make the holiday more inclusive and less questionable.
FTFY
It's obvious some in your country think differently but if you don't care about possible racial overtones or making people uncomfortable, that's on you.
So why not update the modern Sinterklaas experience to get rid of people in blackface?
Was the video in the OP not of Dutch people?But it's only questionable from certain perspectives. Why should the Dutch celebrate their traditions by following USA standards and believes?
In general we don't care about offending people. But that's more in general, if it actually was actively racist, like painting black people in a bad light, people happily part with it.
Was the video in the OP not of Dutch people?
I realise that's the reality of the situation and I mean no offence to the Dutch, I just have to scratch my head at the frequency of articles or discussions about the Dutch when it comes to people getting offended. Islamic stuff comes into play here too. You guys seem to just have some people that really don't care or even enjoy pissing people off, lol.
Because there is no undercurrent to consider blackface offensive in this particular context (because we lack the historical context and perspective of its place in American entertainment), and hence no national debate about it. Since Sinterklaas is part of the shared cultural experience growing up, there is a conservative tendency to not alter the folklore, especially in wake of what is deemed 'unnecessary political correctness'.
That's the most succinct I can describe it.
I may not agree but I understand. Thanks for putting it so succinctly. In most cases preserving traditions is a positive thing even if I disagree in this case. But I won't let my American viewpoint dictate how you run your country. All I can do is voice concern or disapproval, up to you guys to determine what happens in your country. I think in most contexts the tendency to simply speak your mind would be a refreshingly honest trait to experience. I do want to get around to visiting at some point.Because there is no undercurrent to consider blackface offensive in this particular context (because we lack the historical context and perspective of its place in American entertainment), and hence no national debate about it. Since Sinterklaas is part of the shared cultural experience growing up, there is a conservative tendency to not alter the folklore, especially in wake of what is deemed 'unnecessary political correctness'.
That's the most succinct I can describe it.
Come on guys thats not true lol
Piet was originally a demon that was enslaved by sinter klaas and would do his bidding. Piet was originally the character that would punish kids for being bad either by flogging/whipping them and/or kidnapping them and taking them away to another country. (pieten still carry the weapon but dutch people pretend its for something else now)
Over the years mostly with the mass introduction of surinamers 30ish years ago the tradtion has changed.
Even with the mix of tradtions that ended up with the dutch version.... Most if not all of the origins portray Pieten in a bad light
Because there is no undercurrent to consider blackface offensive in this particular context (because we lack the historical context and perspective of its place in American entertainment), and hence no national debate about it. Since Sinterklaas is part of the shared cultural experience growing up, there is a conservative tendency to not alter the folklore, especially in wake of what is deemed 'unnecessary political correctness'.
That's the most succinct I can describe it.
Pretty much, hence the amount of dislikes for the video.Yeah, but there are always people bitching about stuff... this isn't something supported broadly
See this is the issue. Indigenous dutch people think that the racist aspect of zwarte piet is SOLEY because of the black paint. And no that is not it. Black paint on the face is not intrinsically racist. The problem is that it is ONLY black paint. And with the black paint comes red lips and curly hair. And ONLY people of that description are the lesser beings that must do the bidding of his white master. Zwarte piet is not racist because of the paint. Zwarte piet is racist because singles out a specific race of people and portrays them as servants.
See this is the issue. Indigenous dutch people think that the racist aspect of zwarte piet is SOLEY because of the black paint. And no that is not it. Black paint on the face is not intrinsically racist. The problem is that it is ONLY black paint. And with the black paint comes red lips and curly hair. And ONLY people of that description are the lesser beings that must do the bidding of his white master. Zwarte piet is not racist because of the paint. Zwarte piet is racist because singles out a specific race of people and portrays them as servants.
He gave a speech at the balcony of city hall. lol.
I don't really get how this would change anything. As far as I'm aware, there is nothing inherently racist about painting your face black, so surely Zwarte Piet would be considered just as racist regardless of whether he was played by a white guy or a black guy?Maybe hire actual black people living in the country now, for example.
So if the origin and role has evolved, why not get rid of the black paint, red lipstick and cotton wigs?
Because there is no undercurrent to consider blackface offensive in this particular context (because we lack the historical context and perspective of its place in American entertainment), and hence no national debate about it. Since Sinterklaas is part of the shared cultural experience growing up, there is a conservative tendency to not alter the folklore, especially in wake of what is deemed 'unnecessary political correctness'.
That's the most succinct I can describe it.
These nuances based on the historical origin are no longer present in the modern experience, however. Zwarte Pieten are intelligent and multi-faceted in their talents (often assigned a role, Transport-Piet, Package-Piet etc), and are assistants, not servants or slaves. They are not lesser or inferior. Sometimes there's a Head Piet who is like the right-hand man of Sinterklaas.
Does he do this everytime? Or is this a comical reference to De Wever?