*sigh* Not America, other culture.
I agree that it can be perceived as racist, that doesn't make it racist.
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Zwarte Piet 2012 |OT|
- Thread starter Opiate
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*sigh* Not America, other culture.
I agree that it can be perceived as racist, that doesn't make it racist.
Yes, another culture which is more openly racist.
dragonelite
Member
Big Baybee
Member
This really is how I'm feeling, but I'm trying to understand the viewpoint of how it's not racist and why it can't or shouldn't be changed.
Other cultures which colonized and shattered Africa? Yeah.
Can you tell me the elements that make Zwarte Piet racist, from your perspective? So I can understand how you approach it.
I'm still not buying that bs about him being an elf covered in chimney soot.
I'd say rather, it's racist actions commited, without the perspective of historical American racism. So you don't immediately see the black person and think slave, you think 'elf'. But then you think, what a fucking minute, that dude didn't have any elves, but he might have had a...er...foreign labor force.
I can't defend the Dire Straights song, Money for Nothing. Can't do it. They don't even play it on the radio anymore.
Obligatory: Sinterklaas at the Debiteuren/Crediteuren office.
From the American perspective, when you look at Black Peter, you're seeing a cartoonish oaf made up to look like a caricature of black people who serves his white master. The imagery of someone with charcoal-black skin, large ruby-red lips and a subservient demeanor is incredibly offensive in North America (and the UK as well, from what I understand). It harkens back to the times of the minstrel shows:
So you can understand why someone from North America, or the UK or somewhere else might look at Black Peter and instantly conclude that he's a figure of racism.
EDIT: That being said, I understand and accept that Dutch and Belgian people don't see it the same way, as they don't share the same history that I do. My confusion stems from the stern opposition to just not have Black Peter show up in blackface. Would it be so horrible if he just wore the get-up, pranced around and was a guy without the make-up? Clearly there are people in your country who are offended and hurt by his current look, so what's the harm in altering a story that's already been tweaked to begin with?
lucky that isn't the point.
Right. But the modern-day Zwarte Piet neither serves Sinterklaas (he assists him), or shows subservient demeanour. Head Piet had to correct Sinterklaas at his main speech today, when he misread his book.
It's true (or is one of the viable origin stories). But this historical story is completely forgotten in the modern Sinterklaas festivities.
Big Baybee
Member
Ok, so once again, the costume serves no purpose. Why not be rid of it?
Because there is no understanding of the costume as offensive, and hence there is no political motivation to change the folklore, since this would be considered 'flagrant political correctness'. The motivation to keep the costume (shared cultural experience of growing up across the generations) is stronger in that regard.
I'm sure that's true. But from an outside perspective (which is what I was aiming to provide there), it's hard to see that distinction. Especially with videos like this one, posted earlier this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2H6SXaWxuo
Kiraly
Member
And an endless discussion about whether it is racist or not is?
I'd assume the laughting track and the man dressed as a woman would give away that this is just something out of a satire. If you'd understand Dutch it would be even more clear (it is just like something out of a teleshopping channel).
That video makes fun of Zwarte Piet in a satirical fashion.
EDIT: And teleshopping at the same time.
EDIT2: It's noteworthy to say that Dutch humour flirts with the line of offensiveness much more than relatively 'safe' American humour.
I am not sure it's incorrect, it probably is correct, but that is hundreds of years ago.
So if you ask me if Zwarte Piet was racist in 1700, I would agree...
But those origins have hardly anything to do with the modern tradition. It has transcended its origins and I wouldn't regard Sinterklaas nowadays as not racist.
I get the feeling that outsiders judge it based on it's perceived look and its origins but how it is practiced nowadays hasn't got anything to do it with...
There is another story where Sinterklaas actually freed an Ethiopian (?) slave, and as a thank you Piet decided to stay with Sinterklaas, to help him out.
Blame the Canadians for the masses of Piets we have now. They came up with it, deciding it would be more fun to have loads of Piets, instead of just one.
Big Baybee
Member
So you're telling me that no one in that country realizes that dressing as a caricature of a black man might possibly be seen as racist or offensive? Big bright red lips, nappy Afro and all? No understanding of that at all?
Not just flirts, I mean look at Hans Teeuwen and Theo Maassen. But us being ridiculous hard in our jokes has nothing to do with Zwarte Piet.
Nope, although sure there are a small minority, but in general no. Because that caricature is so much from reality that it's irrelevant. We don't share the same racial tensions as you have until today in your country.
1. it's racist origins, no one really cared about them and they don't matter today. They weren't really considered racist or racial, african slave, elf-slave, whatever. It's just a story.
2. the kids love it.
3. it's not hurting anyone
so, why bother changing it or even discussing it?
have I gotten it all straight?
2. the kids love it.
3. it's not hurting anyone
so, why bother changing it or even discussing it?
have I gotten it all straight?
At least a part of it, also that the modern tradition doesn't have any of the racist behaviour attached to it...
It's Folklore/tradition, and people like it, old and young, black and white accross the entire nation...
Tha Robbertster
Member
Pretty much. It's such an ingrained custom, and I think it would hurt more people (children) if it was changed all of a sudden, just so that a small oversensitive group doesn't have to feel offended.
Big Baybee
Member
Only the racist imagery....
This American understanding of blackface is indeed not shared by Flemish/Dutch people, when it concerns Zwarte Piet. He is not a caricature of a black man (in his modern form), he is simply Zwarte Piet. I think most people here who know of the American minstrel shows, will agree those were offensive. But modern Zwarte Piet is different from those minstrel shows from our cultural perspective.
And hence the lack of political momentum to change it.
...that isn't being perceived as racist... because the race aspect doesn't have anything to do with the modern story.
ah, the old stereotypes from WW2. :> 'Europeans and their reluctance to do anything that has to do with change, unless there's a war or a famine forcing them to do it.'
They chose to try the multiculturalism route. They should learn from the example of the Americans and understand that the "dickishness" or the "nationalism pushback" is the bad path to take.
They chose to try the multiculturalism route. They should learn from the example of the Americans and understand that the "dickishness" or the "nationalism pushback" is the bad path to take.
Arjen
Member
Oh great, the yearly thread were i'm labelled as racist and people shit over my childhood
This discussion has been done to death over the last years, and neither side will ever budge.
So i'm going to grab a bag of kruidnoten while blasting this
I'm celebrating with my parents and sister like every year, and on a seperate night with friends. I serioulsy love this holiday.
This discussion has been done to death over the last years, and neither side will ever budge.
So i'm going to grab a bag of kruidnoten while blasting this
I'm celebrating with my parents and sister like every year, and on a seperate night with friends. I serioulsy love this holiday.
The defense that it is for the children doesn’t make much sense. Would kids really mind that Zwarte Piet doesn’t wear blackface? No, they won’t. Why not use other colors or no color at all? The whole principle of the holiday would not get lost if it were changed.
Multiculturalism is unpopular enough that it doesn't need a 'War on Zwarte Piet'. It would only be considered another sign of overbearing political correctness by the left-wing.
There is no shared undercurrent that the blackface in this specific instance is offensive. And the motivation to preserve Zwarte Piet is stronger because of it being a shared cultural experience growing up.
Alx
Member
"Zwarte Piet" = "Black Peter". It would be hard for him not to be black when it's in his name...
what exactly changed to make him NOT a caricature of a black man? Specifically, what?
The erosion of the historic origin in its active incarnation.
Dinner, so it'll take a while before I'm back. I hope I'm doing a good job in this thread.
Supermanisdead
Member
Regardless of whether Europe never had blackface minstrel shows, this shit is still racist. He's a devil slave. Wtf. Why change everything about him except the glaring blackface shit?
dave is ok
aztek is ok
I love this thread every year. And yes, it's racist. The chimney doesn't explain the giant polliwog lips and Afro.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Ah, the truth finally appears.
Let me be the next to say how utterly unsurprised I am by the truth.
Sorry your parents and forefathers planted racist shit in your childhood and told you it was innocent.
We had our Looney Toons here doing the same thing. I loved those cartoons as a child. As a grown-ass man, I certainly won't defend them now, nor will my children be exposed to them. Good luck in the decisions you all have to make in your own futures.
Big Baybee
Member
This is what I'm not understanding.
Moral Panic
Member
People denying it's racism should really look at what ideas, standards and culture they are perpetuating.
Goldrusher
Member
Why shouldn't the Dutch be allowed to dress up as a black person?
Because of historical events?
You think "white Europeans" were (and are!) never used as slaves?
You think Spartacus was someone who worked on the cotton fields in Mississippi?
He's having a blast and kids love him too. They don't ask if it's a white guy with soot, a white guy with makeup, or a real black person. They don't care.
And yes, it's cartoony, but it's for kids. Everything for kids is cartoony.
People of all ages, of all colors, of all cultures, religions and even nationalities are having a blast when Sinterklaas is around.
Towns, schools, hospitals, shops, theme parks, etc. all organize events where Sinterklaas shows up.
Because of historical events?
You think "white Europeans" were (and are!) never used as slaves?
You think Spartacus was someone who worked on the cotton fields in Mississippi?
Zwarte Piet is simply a wacky assistant of Sinterklaas.
He's having a blast and kids love him too. They don't ask if it's a white guy with soot, a white guy with makeup, or a real black person. They don't care.
And yes, it's cartoony, but it's for kids. Everything for kids is cartoony.
People of all ages, of all colors, of all cultures, religions and even nationalities are having a blast when Sinterklaas is around.
Towns, schools, hospitals, shops, theme parks, etc. all organize events where Sinterklaas shows up.
Alx
Member
"glaring blackface" has no meaning outside the US (or at least it has none in most of Europe).
And the character being black is what defines him. Even if the origins are politically incorrect, there are things you can't change without destroying the character. That's the reason why some people tried to change the story and explanations, to remove the "incorrect" part, but in the end Black Peter needs to be black.
Ah, my apologies for misunderstanding that video! I'll own up to taking it at face value (since I don't speak Dutch). Mea culpa.
I think, for Americans and others who look at Black Peter unkindly, it boils down to viewing the "Black Peter's not about racism anymore, so it's fine that he's in blackface" as equivalent to "Calling someone gay as a pejorative is fine because I'm implying that they're dumb, not homosexual."
Lots of posters have been trying to make it clear that Black Peter is not actually a black person, but rather a white person covered in soot, yes? I'm sure that's the truth, so can one of you clarify the significance of his moor-like clothing, red lips and hair? Other than simply being holdovers from his previous, acknowledged-as-racist origins, I haven't seen any explanations.
But let me make it clear - I'm not trying to sit in judgement of anyone. I'm just trying to understand. Instead of the constant "You are racist for perpetuating this awful thing" and "It's not racist - stop pushing your Americanism on me," we should be trying to clarify why we feel so strongly one way or the other. Otherwise people are just going to stay set in their ways and this is just going to deteriorate further.
I think, for Americans and others who look at Black Peter unkindly, it boils down to viewing the "Black Peter's not about racism anymore, so it's fine that he's in blackface" as equivalent to "Calling someone gay as a pejorative is fine because I'm implying that they're dumb, not homosexual."
Lots of posters have been trying to make it clear that Black Peter is not actually a black person, but rather a white person covered in soot, yes? I'm sure that's the truth, so can one of you clarify the significance of his moor-like clothing, red lips and hair? Other than simply being holdovers from his previous, acknowledged-as-racist origins, I haven't seen any explanations.
But let me make it clear - I'm not trying to sit in judgement of anyone. I'm just trying to understand. Instead of the constant "You are racist for perpetuating this awful thing" and "It's not racist - stop pushing your Americanism on me," we should be trying to clarify why we feel so strongly one way or the other. Otherwise people are just going to stay set in their ways and this is just going to deteriorate further.
Supermanisdead
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