If you wanna make 6 figures, rankings do matter. There are a lot of students/practitioners here who have done fine at not-T14 schools, so take my advice w a grain of salt- don't go to any school that's not top 10 unless you have a free ride, and realize that you probably won't make six figures if you go outside the top 14.
Law School & Lawyer GAF
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SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
Lol, that sucks.
DoktorEvil
Banned
It's not the 6 figure promises at admissions that's tripping me up, its the cost to benefit of a top 10 vs a not top 10.
I have a B.B.A. in Finance. My background is a little less ordinary than say, PoliSci or Latin or Philosophy so hear me out.
Let's say I devote 3 years of my life to Law School. Currently I'm working to pay off current student debt(27K), so this will be 3 years opportunity cost plus the cost of 3 years tuition and board. Law school in NYC can very easily get to 120-150 K for 3 years in a top 10 or 30-70K in a state school or lesser. Loans/Scholarships/Grants may ease the burden but I'm not holding my breath for non-guaranteed money.
I have to be able to after graduation:
1)Find a job, assuming I pass the bar first shot.
2)Afford rent and a place to live/practice.
3)Afford food and transportation.
4Afford student loan debts/credit card debts/misc. loans.
5)Save money for a rainy day fund/retirement.
6)Work on a side hustle/side business.
Is it all feasible after law school, or will I be mainly juggling my time with clients and such at a Big 4 firm or smaller?
Byakuya769
Member
Just 120-150 for NYC with no scholly? You included living expenses?
ZackieChan
Member
If they're giving you free legal advice on GAF, I probably wouldn't trust it. They should know that they shouldn't be doing that. Talk to an IRL lawyer.
Jag
Member
I'm thinking three card monty or selling counterfeit DVDs on a carpet.
I did the 3 years of NYC law school (actually Brooklyn) and it's possible to get a regular law job and still live and pay off your loans but you won't have much for anything else. I also starting working for a very small firm while I was still in school so that helped financially and turned into my first job.
The people I know who have law jobs had been gunning since before law school or have family connections.
Some people are using their undergrad degrees, others are just sitting around unemployed.
i'm just really, really happy crypto exists.
lol as much as the situation sucks, it is kind of a blessing in disguise for a lot of us who just went to law school expecting a job but without really being super interested.
Go to the best school you can. It's as simple as that. Over your career, whatever cost difference there is between a top 10 school and a not top 10 school will be dwarfed by the benefits.
About the distinction in rankings, even if you accept that networking is the biggest thing, recognize that going to a higher ranked school gives you many more networking opportunities. If you need proof, just look at any list of the employers that go to OCI for a T14 vs even a T20 school. Additionally, firms have and want to maintain good relationships with the schools, so there are tons of networking opportunities during the year as well.
Another thing: grade cutoff and school ranking is a real thing. (Source: V10 lawyer flipped through his recruiting binder right in front of me last year.) The higher your school is ranked, the lower your grades can be. Don't assume you can go to a regional or lower ranked school and just "kill it" and be top of your class. In fact, that's a great way to screw yourself.
Unless your connection at a firm is someone who is willing to put their credibility on the line for you if you happen to have poor grade/low ranked school, or maybe your dad is the firm's biggest client, or maybe your dad is senior partner, or maybe you happen to be the most charming person in the world that saved babies in a 3rd world country, you can't count on making buddies with a few alums and getting in that way. As others have said, your best shot is the highest ranked school.
(It isn't that distinct, I don't think, once you can crack the T14, though. I wouldn't fault anyone who takes, for example, a full scholly at NU vs. no aid at Chicago. That said, you can check each school's placement into firm jobs, clerkships, academia, whatever. That's a risk balance you need to decide for yourself.)
Another thing: grade cutoff and school ranking is a real thing. (Source: V10 lawyer flipped through his recruiting binder right in front of me last year.) The higher your school is ranked, the lower your grades can be. Don't assume you can go to a regional or lower ranked school and just "kill it" and be top of your class. In fact, that's a great way to screw yourself.
Unless your connection at a firm is someone who is willing to put their credibility on the line for you if you happen to have poor grade/low ranked school, or maybe your dad is the firm's biggest client, or maybe your dad is senior partner, or maybe you happen to be the most charming person in the world that saved babies in a 3rd world country, you can't count on making buddies with a few alums and getting in that way. As others have said, your best shot is the highest ranked school.
(It isn't that distinct, I don't think, once you can crack the T14, though. I wouldn't fault anyone who takes, for example, a full scholly at NU vs. no aid at Chicago. That said, you can check each school's placement into firm jobs, clerkships, academia, whatever. That's a risk balance you need to decide for yourself.)
Advocatus Diaboli
Member
Anyone going to Georgetown?
Since I'm going to be working in D.C. starting this summer, I decided to attend the part-time LL.M. program starting this fall, focusing on national security and intelligence oversight law, as well as network my ass off.
I'd love to hear anyone's experiences on what either a part-time program or an LL.M.'s like. At this point, my biggest decision is figuring out where to live, since I'll be working in Alexandria, but I don't want to commute back out of the city after taking classes in the afternoon or evening.
Since I'm going to be working in D.C. starting this summer, I decided to attend the part-time LL.M. program starting this fall, focusing on national security and intelligence oversight law, as well as network my ass off.
I'd love to hear anyone's experiences on what either a part-time program or an LL.M.'s like. At this point, my biggest decision is figuring out where to live, since I'll be working in Alexandria, but I don't want to commute back out of the city after taking classes in the afternoon or evening.
Did not attend Georgetown, but I did get my LLM in taxation from Florida. It was essentially an extension of law school with a smattering of non-lawyers (in my case, accountants) in the class.
Obviously, we went into more depth and detail in the classes, but the structure for the courses was very similar to law school with case books for texts and with your only grade coming from your final exam.
Nothing like getting an e-mail from opposing counsel while you're getting dressed for work, asking if you're going to be joining a deposition that started at 7:00AM. It's made even better when a partner's secretary tells you she received the depo notice but forgot to forward it to you. Fun times!
brucewaynegretzky
Member
Deposition of a prescribing doctor. I'm assuming it was early to accommodate his schedule, but I'm not positive as I obviously wasn't involved in its scheduling.
Both. The secretary fell on her sword, but gently. She's usually top notch and swore it would never happen again.
Tuition alone is 150K for three years in New York City without scholarship.
That's without a penny for anything else, including books.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
2nd time in two months that a judge has told me some legal principle I told her was wrong despite a) the law and b) the vigorous agreement of opposing counsel with myself.
Same judge both times?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Nope. The first one was almost funny in hindsight (other than the work we had to do) because the judge insisted we needed to comply with some requirement for him to approve a settlement that both parties agreed did not exist - we both tried to tell him it did not actually exist to no avail. We had to do a new briefing with authority to explain that this requirement doesn't exist.
The feeling was a bit like Don Mattingly trying to shave his sideburns.
This gonna sound ridiculous since we have so many of you guys in practice already but I just had my first year moot today and I'm pretty disappointed about losing. This is really weird too because leading up to it I was just like who gives a shit it's pass/fail and nobody is gonna fail you for verbal submissions, but here we are.
Byakuya769
Member
Appellate? What went wrong for you?
I'm not part-time or LLM, but I do know that there are a lot of people who will opt in to either program while NOT working. So I'd say don't bank on everyone else being as busy as you are.
Regarding living. There are a lot of nice places near campus now on Mass Avenue and the "NOMA" area. Those are on the redline though, so for work you'd have to take the redline into Metro Center and transfer to the blue/orange to get to Alexandria (I think).
ZackieChan
Member
Anyone else in here an IP/transactional attorney?
Yuppers. I guess I am more of a tech and privacy attorney nowadays to be more precise.
ZackieChan
Member
That is cool. California?
Nah, in NYC. Not many of us in NYC, apparently.
djblackice
Member
Yes, well used to be but practicing in a new field now in CA. Getting my TX and MI license soon (admission by motion FTW!).
Hey guys, first post in here.
I'm wondering how patent law is in the--supposedly awful--legal market? I'm finally graduating after 6 years of undergrad, due to being terribly indecisive. I'll be graduating with a physics, computer science, and math major, at around a 3.4 GPA. Hoping to do well on the LSAT.
As for why I'm considering law school, after doing so much science? I've always been interested in law and politics, and the thought of being a software engineer all my life isn't too appealing. Go me. Haha.
I'm wondering how patent law is in the--supposedly awful--legal market? I'm finally graduating after 6 years of undergrad, due to being terribly indecisive. I'll be graduating with a physics, computer science, and math major, at around a 3.4 GPA. Hoping to do well on the LSAT.
As for why I'm considering law school, after doing so much science? I've always been interested in law and politics, and the thought of being a software engineer all my life isn't too appealing. Go me. Haha.
Question: What would look better on a CV, a paralegal position or an internship position? Friend of mine is getting a temporary contract at a big law firm, and they've given her the choice on what she wants the contract to be called. She already has some internships at courts/law firms, so I suggested that paralegal is perhaps better instead of another internship on the list.
Thoughts?
I would think that a patent lawyer with an actual software engineering degree would be highly valued. The area is booming and there's not that many people around with double degrees like that.
Thoughts?
I would think that a patent lawyer with an actual software engineering degree would be highly valued. The area is booming and there's not that many people around with double degrees like that.
Is this person a law student or a licensed attorney? If only a law student, I'd call it a clerkship. If an attorney, I'd call it a contract attorney position. Definitely not a paralegal.
I have a friend who did molecular bio undergrad, honors and all that, did the IP program at my law school, worked as a research assistant for profs, has had non-IP internships, is bilingual, brilliant, just did a few hour lecture on patents at a uni, loves it, studies this stuff on her own, etc.
2 years and change on the hunt and counting. granted she has turned down bullshit low pay positions for crap firms that are obviously trying to fuck people and are just divorce/contract mills, not IP.
That's one horror story, not sure how others are doing. but consider doing what you need to do to be a software engineer, work in it for a while, then decide. There's no rush. There are middle aged folks who go to law school, plenty of late 20s, 30s, 40s...you don't have to go straight out of undergrad.
This is probably a function of where she went to law school than anything else, unfortunately.
And one of the worst parts about this profession, can be so elitist (at least when starting out).
Jag
Member
Hey, the Court Street ambulance chasers were banging on my door when I got out of Brooklyn.
Self-perpetuation of prestige is 95% of this profession's reason for seeming important. Self-serving wankfests.
I'm not sure how correct this is, and I realize there are exceptions for IP + other specialty areas--but I feel like anyone could learn the law + lawyering, if our education system had taught any philosophical logic at lower levels than undergrad (and in undergrad, it was the "i don't wanna take a math course" elective at my alma mater, uw-madison.)
I just didn't get the impression that law school was a very intellectual undertaking when I was there. after the initial hump, it all kinda goes auto-pilot and it's free As and Bs after that.
For the nuts-and-bolts of being an attorney, this is spot-on correct.
As with any academic subject, there's levels of intellectualism and it can get very intense either in the law itself or using the law as the lens for analyzing another area or discipline. But that's not what you're engaging in day-to-day.
You are already dead.
Byakuya769
Member
Barbri.. I need to have my ass in a seat, instead of studying on my own after meeting with a tutor once a week or whatever.
Frank the Great
Banned
I took PA in February, after passing NJ and NY in the July test. I didn't take a review course this time and found it hard to find time to study, with work.
I have little confidence I passed this, but here's hoping.
I have little confidence I passed this, but here's hoping.
Shit, son. BARBRI is for the weak. Get the books and study on your own!
Stick with BARBRI.
Chicago is the better school, and it's also (in the words of an undergrad professor of mine) where "lost souls go to die".
Not sure where else to put this without getting ridiculed >_>, but I'm pretty pumped about the Supreme Court of Canada's decision this Friday about whether Justice Nadon is allowed to be one of the 3 Quebec justices on the Court:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/supreme-court/article17519765/
Can't wait!
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/supreme-court/article17519765/
Can't wait!
Is it really that bad? None of the attorneys I work with/know in real life have made law school out to seem as life-sucking and horrible as GAF has led me to believe.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
I'm using barbri.
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