Funny you should mention that. When I watched recent extended look for Cap that was just released I noted that it was exactly what I expected when I first heard there was going to be a SHIELD show instead of.... whatever it is we have now. Obviously the production values wouldn't be as high but they could do better than 45 minutes of snarky bullshit followed by Superwoman Skye saving the day with the power of friendship and showing everyone what a bunch of gosh darn meanies they are being. I expected this experienced team of covert, slightly morally grey agents dealing with hostile alien or superhuman threats by any means necessary. This was the first episode I felt delivered on that in any real way.
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Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. |OT| Tahiti is a Magical Place (to...Hey guys, I found it!)
- Thread starter TheOddOne
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Funny you should mention that. When I watched recent extended look for Cap that was just released I noted that it was exactly what I expected when I first heard there was going to be a SHIELD show instead of.... whatever it is we have now. Obviously the production values wouldn't be as high but they could do better than 45 minutes of snarky bullshit followed by Superwoman Skye saving the day with the power of friendship and showing everyone what a bunch of gosh darn meanies they are being. I expected this experienced team of covert, slightly morally grey agents dealing with hostile alien or superhuman threats by any means necessary. This was the first episode I felt delivered on that in any real way.
Ironically those directors came from TV (AD/Community)
Even with S.H.I.E.L.D. being a shady organization, I thought this was kind of dumb considering those guys could have been the only ones who could help them. Relying on a non-fatal, indiscriminate shot to complete their objective just seemed irrational. I guess I find it weird they went from negotiating attempts to lethality a bit suddenly, even as they began receiving fire.
Just seemed oddly written.
They honestly probably could lol
BlackNMild2k1
Member
Coulson actually said "The Guest House is not a SHIELD facility. We don't know who or what's in there. Be prepared for potential resistance." moments before knocking on the front door.
They didn't approach with the intent to kill, he was looking for medical attention for Skye because he knew that was the facility that did the impossible and brought him back to life after being dead for 8 days.
They only packed an arsenal because they had to be prepared just incase there were hostiles on site. They were not sure if anyone was even at the base, since their repeated attempts to communicate with anyone there went unanswered until they walked up to the door and rang the door bell.
That's odd, because before Couslon & Co. even fired a single shot, they stated that they were only there for medical assistance twice. and before he coudl even finish saying that they would defend themselves if they continued firing upon them, they were being fired upon once again. So naturally, it became a kill or be killed situation.
They didn't pack non-lethal weaponry as they were not going into a known misguided semi-friendly situation.
TacticalFox88
Banned
SonofdonCD
Member
Within the context of what we saw, we have no way of judging the goodness or badness of those two guards. Though I will say that with Coulson explaining several times their situation:
I wouldn't necessarily say the guys were "good", if they were to ignore such a plea. And if they really are associated with SHIELD (which is doubtful, as Fitz couldn't find anything in the SHIELD database about the protocol the guards used to test them), then their should've been another way to verify that Coulson and his team were legit agents.
Ultimately, Coulson knew that the cure was there, and did what he had to do to obtain it. He'd prefer to do it peacefully, but those guards tied his hands. His other alternative would be to let Skye die, which while this would be acceptable to some of you guys, would be unacceptable to Coulson.
Also, to refresh your memory, this is all the info they had on the "Guest House" before they went there:
Coulson:"The guest house is not a SHIELD facility. We don't know who or what's in there. Be prepared for potential resistance."
Agent Garrett: "No contact from inside?"
May: "I've tried every known channel. No response."
Agent Ward: "Place could be abandoned."
Coulson: "Let's hope not. We need the people inside to work on Skye."
There's more, but this dialogue shows that all their info indicated that this was NOT a SHIELD facility. They thought there could potentially be hostiles, which would mean they might have to shoot to kill. They ultimately did try to be diplomatic, several times at that.
Jest Chillin
Member
Uhh the blatant and repeated dialogue that said it wasn't a SHIELD facility...
Yup, this thread showed that. It's hard to make a case against Agents of SHIELD's lack of subtlety when we're discussing stuff like this.
Jest Chillin
Member
Yet even so.. people still miss the huge blinking neon signs....
That's what I'm saying. We can't complain about AoS beating us over the head with info when this thread proves that be beaten over the head with info is actually necessary.
Jest Chillin
Member
Oh I know what you meant. I was just making it extra obvious.. just in case. :X
The rights for those two characters are shared because they are both classic long-time Avengers members as well as being mutants. Marvel can't use any other mutant characters or refer to them as mutants in their movies as they don't have the rights.
The girl scientist who I forget the name of ATM because it's late also said earlier that the doctors and location were not S.H.I.E.L.D. in origin. There was a good minute where they talked about none of the names being in the database. Even if it was a secret S.H.I.E.L.D. base (probably), for all intents and purposes, it wasn't to them.
We know the facility was used by SHIELD. They sent one of their most important people there to get healed.
They didn't let unknown people waltz in. That doesn't make them bad people, they're there to ignore pleas like that. Suppose the facility housed nuclear weapons. Would you have let them walk in because they claim they have someone wounded?
Fasho. I was Jest Checkin.
Jest Chillin
Member
That doesn't mean they're SHIELD at all. Just that SHIELD and/or Fury was able to make a call and a deal.
They're not there to ignore pleas like that. They're there to protect the PR of the place place. However if they were SHIELD, they should have a wat to contant the people in chargewith withch to contact HQ.
The gang heads to the Bathesda location as that is listed as the facility where Coulson was treated. On the way Simmons says"this is not a SHIELD facility," as in its not a real location. They then use the SHIELD database to track down the real location.
Coulson does say "This is not a SHIELD" facility, but really? Fury knows about it, its staffed by SHIELD doctors, it is in the database even if "encrypted." I think that was just Coulson justifying their future actions.
I don't think there is anything deep about this by the way I think its the writers doing a bad job at tying up a plot hole.
Also there is a nice shot of Bobs ID badge at the 25 minute mark.
Fox has a blanket contract for all mutants. Quicksliver and Scaarlet Witch were special cases because they debut way before mutants were popular and their 99% of their history is based around the Avengers. Squirrel Girl doesn't have that.
Father_Brain
Banned
Source? Why does that only apply to those two characters and not other mutants with no significant ties to the X-Men or any property not owned by Marvel? Squirrel Girl wasn't even defined as a mutant until many years after her creation.
pulga
Banned
I am astonished as to the lengths you lot will go to defend lazy, mediocre writing.
bu bu but SHIELD is supposed to be shady, ruthless and murder-y. Not Coulson's team, not the way they've been portrayed all season. This was even reinforced at the end of the episode, during the exchange about throwing the true hero of SHIELD off the plane.
bu bu but Coulson stated they were friendlies. put yourself in the position of the security guards. Would you let any dipshit who walks up to the front door claiming to be a friendly inside? If so, you'd be terrible at your job and deserve to be murdered by HYDRA.
bu bu but it's NOT a SHIELD facility. Fury clearly knows about it, and Coulson was operated on in the very same place. They definitely have ties to one another, pretending otherwise is disingenuous.
Coulson and co. were the aggressors in this. They murdered two innocent men, most likely with ties to SHIELD, who were only doing their job. All for the sake of saving one woman. It's murder. End of.
I hope Fury rips them all a new asshole.
bu bu but SHIELD is supposed to be shady, ruthless and murder-y. Not Coulson's team, not the way they've been portrayed all season. This was even reinforced at the end of the episode, during the exchange about throwing the true hero of SHIELD off the plane.
bu bu but Coulson stated they were friendlies. put yourself in the position of the security guards. Would you let any dipshit who walks up to the front door claiming to be a friendly inside? If so, you'd be terrible at your job and deserve to be murdered by HYDRA.
bu bu but it's NOT a SHIELD facility. Fury clearly knows about it, and Coulson was operated on in the very same place. They definitely have ties to one another, pretending otherwise is disingenuous.
Coulson and co. were the aggressors in this. They murdered two innocent men, most likely with ties to SHIELD, who were only doing their job. All for the sake of saving one woman. It's murder. End of.
I hope Fury rips them all a new asshole.
Seriously? They use the night-night gun against centipede agents and even Skye used it when going after Quinn. There was not really a reason not to at least bring the weapon.
Also what you consider to be more convenient was never an option. They couldn't have been allowed to find out who they were, because that will most likely be part of a big plot reveal later. So no, it doesn't excuse their lazy writing. But I consider it a relatively in or thing, so I can excuse it.
I kind of hoped the last reveal would be Alien Resurrection style, when Ripley enters the room filled with imperfect clones. Nope, half blue-giant filtered blood it is. I thought cloning was the most likely as it would have made the open-brain surgery mandatory to implant his memories into a new body,
. Instead, this procedure is merely optional for the sake of keeping it secret from the patient. It evolved from mysterious plot to bad writing imho, there was no need for this brainwashing at all, except for the plot, writers just wanted to have something mysterious floating around.
and memory tinkering needed to prevent the patient from remembering the numerous failed, painful previous attempts
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. |OT| Tahiti is a Magical Place (To Commit Murder)
BlackNMild2k1
Member
Lazy writing or not, we have to explain what was explained in the show and clearly being ignored.
What wasn't explained in the show is what that facility really was and who was running it.
For all we know, that is some super secret facility that Fury had selected certain trust worthy people to do even more secret research at, and that this place was purposely done outside of SHIELD since Fury probably doesn't trust many of those he works with.
So, just because Fury and a few SHIELD scientist were at the facility, that doesn't mean that's all who was there and that it was a SHIELD facility
And no one is denying that Coulson & Co. invaded a base of unknown affiliation and ultimately took out two guards that were just doing their jobs, we are just saying that Coulson & Co did try to come in peacfully and only fired back after being put in a position of life or Death.
You may not agree with them breaking in and killing these guards, but as others have explained, SHIELD is a Global Government Operation that will do what they feel is necessary to protect the what they deem worthy of protecting.
And we're saying that an organisation with unclear governmental ties (it is exclusively tied to the US government in the Marvel cinematic universe) has no rights to break into a facility, and those guards would have been idiots for letting them in. If you're guarding something that important, you don't let people in. They didn't even have someone wounded with them... Skye was in the plane so there are just 5 armed guys standing in front of a door claiming they're peaceful and then breaking in.
That is about the same thing Russia said about their 'invasion' of Ukraine.
pulga
Banned
and if this was an end of the world scenario, you might have a point. but they just ended two
innocent
and it wasn't even a SHIELD operation, it was just Coulson and co. going off the rails on a murder spree
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one really bothered by Coulson's merry band of misfits killing two innocent guards like no thang.
I'm sure this will be poorly explained in a future episode, though. Or maybe not. I don't know if the writers are competent enough to acknowledge what happened.
I'm sure this will be poorly explained in a future episode, though. Or maybe not. I don't know if the writers are competent enough to acknowledge what happened.
Jest Chillin
Member
Everytime they've used the night night guns, Fitz and Simmons have had operational prep time. This time not so much. I don't think it's far fetched to think that the ammo isn't mass produced yet.
There's a lot of ways they could've written the encounter that would leave Coulson an co's hands completely clean without allowing the security guards to spill who they are and who the work for. It's not lazy to give characters depth through moral ambiguity. It's lazy to write them as single faceted characters who never make decisions that compromise their values. There's a reason people tend to find Batman/Bruce Wayne more intriguing a character than Superman/Clark Kent.
The moment they fired, first, on Coulson and co with lethal ammo.. they cease being innocent. "Just doing their job" doesn't justify the Guards actions anymore than Skye's dying justifies Coulson's. You're suggesting that there would have been absolutely nothing wrong with the Guards killing the SHIELD agents because the SHIELD agents broke into the facility looking for help and it would've been ok because that's their orders.
How exactly does that work within the frame of your moral argument?
Affeinvasion
Member
Agents of SHIELD: where following rules of engagement is considered murder.
Who cares about some fodder? Jack Bauer has killed his fair share of "innocent" guards in chaos he created for ultimately the greater good and we cheer him on.
Then again, he is goddamn Jack Bauer. No one on this team has reached that level. I'm not even going to get into Arrow's murder sprees...
Then again, he is goddamn Jack Bauer. No one on this team has reached that level. I'm not even going to get into Arrow's murder sprees...
I can't believe it's being debated. They get a whole moment of personality and suddenly people care.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Really?
After almost a full year of people complaining that "Superman leveled an entire city all by himself" in Man of Steel?
Father_Brain
Banned
I'd be more forgiving of the torture and killing in this episode if the script had actually reflected some awareness on the writers' parts that the team's actions were morally ambiguous at best, but nothing in this episode came across that way.
I think this puts it best.
When you put it like that I really shouldn't be surprised.
At least in that case, it seems like Superman didn't really consider the people that would get hurt. In this episode, Coulson clearly stated that he wanted to work out something peaceful and didn't want anyone to die.
You are right, it isn't far fetched to think that the ammo isn't mass produced yet. But it is far fetched that they don't at least have a small stockpile, or that they didn't have any left over. There is no way they only make the exact amount needed, as they have no way of knowing.
So you are agreeing with me? Unless you are seriously thinking that they will later deal with the moral consequence of killing two guards of a secret, possibly evil organization. There isn't much of a reason to focus on that particular scene, it is pretty insignificant. I am surprised people are as upset about it as they are.
Mighty Chin
Banned
I'm pretty happy they actually gave the two guards a bit of personality.
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
Dat Whedon snark. Though I cared about their plight more than May or Ward's up to this point.
I'm quite sure shoot first, ask questions later is standard operating procedure for any military base guarding heavily secret and dangerous stuff.
Jest Chillin
Member
With it not being mass produced, I can see them not having enough prepared. They were using them on the train but that whole mission went sideways so who knows how much was lost. In any case though I don't think Coulson particularly cared who or what the facility was at the time, so capturing people wasn't really in his purview.
I don't think they'll necessarily "deal" with the moral consequences but I think they'll acknowledge it in dialogue later. Otherwise I don't really see the point in all the dialogue about not wanting to kill them and blah blah blah. It'll be a small part of a larger issue or realization.
While the truth of that remains to be seen (unless someone has worked guarding a secret base securing secret and dangerous stuff and wants to chime in..?), meeting lethal force with lethal force is certainly standing operating procedure. One is not more morally correct than the other. Coulson and co hacked their way in, sure. But they tried to talk and were answered with bullets. Justifies their returning fire.
Jorok Goldblade
Member
I was kind of surprised they didn't bring the Night-Night guns to this fight.
Mighty Chin
Banned
Why didn't the Avengers show up. Too busy I guess!
This this this.
SHIELD has always been a shady organization, making decisions that ultimately protect the world even of that means doing some pretty crappy stuff. I think most of it was in line with their organization's track record.
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