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[Joni]

Yeah at this point you're pretty blatantly trolling. They weren't drawn into a firefight. Coulson's team hacks the glass doors and then immediately hides behind cover and is fired upon by the guards. Then Coulson repeats that they're seeking medical help and not there to fight but will defend themselves if they're continually fired upon. The guards respond by firing on them again. If anyone was drawn into a firefight it was Coulson's group.

They were asked to render assistance and refused. They were given fair warning to stand down when outnumbered and refused. They were told that the SHIELD team would defend themselves.

Stupid guards doing their jobs and stopping people who break in. If they were seeking medical help and were serious, they could have called the bosses of these guards, and have them let them in. That is how the guards think. The SHIELD team are clearly the aggressors. Anyone who doesn't see that, clearly has no sense of real life.

Even after breaching the lobby, Coulson's group does not fire. They take cover and again announce that they're seeking medical assistance and well defend themselves if they're continue to fire upon them. Absolutely nothing about that firefight supports that the Guards were.

Yeah, these guys breaking and entering in a secured facility must be good guys.

Except they're not trying to make them look noble. Coulson's group didn't have a moral line until Skye joined the group and became that for them. The have regularly shown the team use Ends justifies the Means tactics and measures. AoS was never, ever about a Lawful Good aligned team.

Yes, it has been. They have questionned SHIELD sacrificing members in suicide missions, they have gone out of their way to save people that shouldn't be saved, ...

You mean the guy who was under the effect of the Extremis and as a result didn't have control of his temper and was going to explode through absolutely no fault or choice of his own? Yeah completely different situation. Those Guards had complete control of their own faculties. They can think and act free of outside influences. They chose to fire on a group of self-identified Agents of SHIELD. They knew the group would defend themselves and they knew they could be killed by the group.

The guards had no choice either. THey can do their job, or they can let the guys in who don't have a sick person with them who in 99% of all cases would be HYDRA agents. They wouldn't have the passcode if they didn't need it.

You really need to rewatch Arrow and think again before you talk about "pretty explosions, not questioning what's really happening." People called out Ollie, sure.. but did he care? Nope. Killed hundreds of people with his bow with literally no effect on his psyche or mental state of being and most of the people he killed had nothing to do with his list. They were just a means to an end to him. The only difference between the hundreds of people that Ollie massacred in S1 and the two people that Coulson's team killed is, most of Ollie's victims had no dialogue.

Ollie stopped killing people because people called him out on it, and he is not there to save the world. He is there to kill bad people. He believes he needs to do that. And people call him out on it...

Ollie didn't have PTSD. PTSD doesn't just go away. He also didn't come to care. He only (mostly) stopped killing out of a twisted sense of debt to Tommy. He has absolutely no moral struggle. Just a struggle with his conscience on whether or not he's properly honoring Tommy's memory. Let's also not forget that Huntress killed less people in the show and was vilified for it by both the fans and the characters.. yet Ollie has killed somewhere around 4 times as many people on screen (more off screen) and no one questions it.

Except Felicity, Tommy and Diggle... They have also made the difference between the mob guys he kills and the police she kills. And yet Felicity and others have said to him there is no difference.

As an aside, it's remarkable how DC vs. Marvel has broken boundaries into other mediums. First in film with Dark Knight vs. Avengers and now the two tent-pole comic book shows are being compared and it just happens to be a DC property vs. a Marvel property.

I'm an Arrow fan, but I have also seen every Marvel movie while I have yet to see Man of Steel. This isn't some DC versus Marvel thing for me, it is very bad writing in a show that I wanted to be good because Arrow has shown shows like this can be good.

 

[Dennis]

Seems like those two guards aren't the only casualties this week.....

 

[Jest Chillin]

Stupid guards doing their jobs and stopping people who break in. If they were seeking medical help and were serious, they could have called the bosses of these guards, and have them let them in. That is how the guards think. The SHIELD team are clearly the aggressors. Anyone who doesn't see that, clearly has no sense of real life.

Breaking into the facility does not represent a violent aggression. They didn't blow the doors off the place. They hacked the system. The guards have the ability to think for themselves. They could've easily set the self destruct timer secretly and tried to vet the story. They didn't. Even the way they addressed the situation indicated looking forward to the fight. "You want left side or right side?" "Left side's good." At the very least they're taking the idea of a lethal gun battle very lightly.

Yeah, these guys breaking and entering in a secured facility must be good guys.

Good and Bad have nothing to do with it.

Yes, it has been. They have questionned SHIELD sacrificing members in suicide missions, they have gone out of their way to save people that shouldn't be saved, ...

No.. SKYE questioned it and only after she questioned it did Simmons help hack SHIELD's database verifying it which led to Coulson's first doubts of the organization ever. Skye is the moral compass and she's dying. You really think that all that "do what must be done to accomplish the mission" training is going to magically stop?

Ollie stopped killing people because people called him out on it, and he is not there to save the world. He is there to kill bad people. He believes he needs to do that. And people call him out on it...

Except Felicity, Tommy and Diggle... They have also made the difference between the mob guys he kills and the police she kills. And yet Felicity and others have said to him there is no difference.

I invite you to rewatch. Felicity, Diggle, and eventually Tommy all mention that killing people may not be the best way for Ollie to go about things but there's never any real threat behind any of it. None of them threaten to turn him in or reveal who he is. All it is, is "I'm not going to be your friend anymore!" It's a BS hollow threat and Ollie knows it. The only reason he even attempts to go non-lethal is because Tommy dies and he he feels partially responsible for it since he was busy doing something else he told Tommy he wouldn't do. And even despite the non-lethal pledge.. he's still killed in S2.

The fans have never questioned Ollie's killing of characters. The famalies of those people are never considered. No one goes to the lengths that posters in this thread have gone to, to try to humanize thugs who are put into Arrow specifically as fodder. But in SHIELD they have 3 lines so now it's the cold blooded murder of innocents. It's completely disingenuous.

 

[mjc]

I can't believe people are freaking out about Coulson and company killing those guards. They gave them like three chances to not shoot at them and they opened fire anyways. I'm sure the guards understood things when they took that job. They're either gonna be fine or they'll likely die protecting the lab. From whoever.

 

[The Elite]

Oh, I'm not saying that people are trying to actively turn this into some sort of DC vs Marvel debate. I'm just find it funny that it always happens to be properties from each company that end up in the most heated debates, despite the medium.

 

[Joni]

Breaking into the facility does not represent a violent aggression. They didn't blow the doors off the place. They hacked the system. The guards have the ability to think for themselves. They could've easily set the self destruct timer secretly and tried to vet the story. They didn't. Even the way they addressed the situation indicated looking forward to the fight. "You want left side or right side?" "Left side's good." At the very least they're taking the idea of a lethal gun battle very lightly.

Or you know, it shows this wasn't the first time someone broke into the building. And yes, this is about good and bad. If someone breaks in your house after asking to get in with an excuse they couldn't prove; you're going to assume they're bad.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Or you know, it shows this wasn't the first time someone broke into the building. And yes, this is about good and bad. If someone breaks in your house after asking to get in with an excuse they couldn't prove; you're going to assume they're bad.

Multiple things point to the facility not being broken into in the past. Dialogue from the guards.

Bob: "Those guys are good, hacked their way in"
G2: "Wonder how they found this place..."
Bob: "Doesn't matter. Didn't know the countersign."

Acknowledging that they're good for being able to hack their way in as well as wondering how someone could've found the location are both signs that the facility hasn't been compromised or even attacked before. The fact that even The Clairvoyant didn't know of the facilities location is another sign that it's likely not even known to more than a handful of people. The fact that the security was so light is yet another sign that the facility hadn't been attacked before (meaning it's secrecy had, up to that point, been it's greatest security measure).

And it really isn't about good and bad. If that were the case, again, they would have attempted to vet Coulson's story. It has everything to do with the two guards being given orders and protocol and responding according to those regardless of situational context. That's not common of innocent people.

 

[Noisepurge]

Seems like those two guards aren't the only casualties this week.....

hey atleast the show now got some real emotions out of people! thread's been dead all year until the guardgate scandal.

 

[Joni]

Multiple things point to the facility not being broken into in the past. Dialogue from the guards.

Okay, so it is trained regularly, even if break-ins are irregular.

The fact that the security was so light is yet another sign that the facility hadn't been attacked before

It contained a self destruction device that needed to be deactivated on a regular basis, it had a very good security system because hacking it was hard. It seems like it had quite a bit of security, even if it only had two guards.

And it really isn't about good and bad. If that were the case, again, they would have attempted to vet Coulson's story. It has everything to do with the two guards being given orders and protocol and responding according to those regardless of situational context. That's not common of innocent people.

Okay, they look through the camera, they see no sick person. Story vetted, it is a lie. And I'm clailing it is a perfect valid response in the real world when dealing with armed people breaking into a secure location that contains dangerous weapons. Do you think the US army would respond otherwise? Or just look at the Crim. The heavily armed Russian soldiers just walked in to protect people and those pesky Ukraiens are mad?

 

[Htown]

Do you think the US army would respond otherwise? Or just look at the Crim. The heavily armed Russian soldiers just walked in to protect people and those pesky Ukraiens are mad?

Really? Are we really getting angry enough about this plot point to go there?

I also like the fact that we're suddenly acting like these are the first bad guys in the history of television to think they're doing the right thing when they're fighting the good guys.

Guess we're taking "attacking the evil organization's base" entirely off the table as a plot point now, because the guards at Cobra Command are just minding their own business guarding their facility when the Joes invade and start their mass murder spree.

 

[Jest Chillin]

Okay, so it is trained regularly, even if break-ins are irregular.

Not irregular. They don't happen. At all.

It contained a self destruction device that needed to be deactivated on a regular basis, it had a very good security system because hacking it was hard. It seems like it had quite a bit of security, even if it only had two guards.

That's a fail safe measure for the security to activate in the case of the facility being breached. This way if they fail to stop the threat, the facility blows. If a single member of a SHIELD could hack it (genius though he may be) then it's not all that secure. Keep in mind that even Fitz acknowledges that Skye is a better hacker than he is.. and Skye isn't even the best civilian hacker in the MCU. It's shit security because the secrecy of the location is the primary defense. The Security guards don't even have back up available to call apparently.

Okay, they look through the camera, they see no sick person. Story vetted, it is a lie. And I'm clailing it is a perfect valid response in the real world when dealing with armed people breaking into a secure location that contains dangerous weapons. Do you think the US army would respond otherwise? Or just look at the Crim. The heavily armed Russian soldiers just walked in to protect people and those pesky Ukraiens are mad?

No one in need of the kind of medical help that that facility provides would be in the condition to just be trotted out in front of a camera. The way to vet the info would be checking the Coulson and co's ID's It's not part of protocol though, so they don't do it. They exercise zero thinking with regards to the situation.

The facility doesn't appear to contain any weapons. It appears to only be a medical facility. It is marked Biohazard though so I guess we can lean that direction for the sake of argument but again, the way they approach the facility before breaking into provides the necessary context.

Yes I do believe the US Army would behave differently. I can cite recent examples if you'd like. I haven't followed the situation with the Ukraine at all but I am curious as to why you're trying to bring that into a discussion about a tv show.

 

[Affeinvasion]

Think about all the construction workers who died on the death star!

 

[neoanarch]

Really? Are we really getting angry enough about this plot point to go there?

I also like the fact that we're suddenly acting like these are the first bad guys in the history of television to think they're doing the right thing when they're fighting the good guys.

Guess we're taking "attacking the evil organization's base" entirely off the table as a plot point now, because the guards at Cobra Command are just minding their own business guarding their facility when the Joes invade and start their mass murder spree.

The lair wasn't a bad guy lair though. The only evidence of that is Coulsons own words about it not being a SHIELD facility. Which is bullshit because it goes against everything else we know about the facility. At best the facility is SHIELD allied at worst Coulsons team took out SHIELD agents.

 

[Jest Chillin]

The lair wasn't a bad guy lair though. The only evidence of that is Coulsons own words about it not being a SHIELD facility. Which is bullshit because it goes against everything else we know about the facility. At best the facility is SHIELD allied at worst Coulsons team took out SHIELD agents.

There is a very interesting theory that I just saw on Reddit about who the facility belongs to. It makes a lot of sense too but it doesn't immediately clarify on the "good or bad" part.


Also: Mandatory Death Star discussion.

 

[pants]

Really? Are we really getting angry enough about this plot point to go there?

I also like the fact that we're suddenly acting like these are the first bad guys in the history of television to think they're doing the right thing when they're fighting the good guys.

Guess we're taking "attacking the evil organization's base" entirely off the table as a plot point now, because the guards at Cobra Command are just minding their own business guarding their facility when the Joes invade and start their mass murder spree.

SHIELD cant be "the good guys" and act the way they did there. Everything we know about the situation puts SHIELD in the wrong. You cant just storm facilities you have no idea about and kill people employed to guard it and try and pass it off as "bad guys" in your way. Coulson had no idea what the purpose of the site is, if they showed some random scene of someone being killed or tortured at the site it would be a less fucked up thing to do, but in this episode SHIELD are the ones murdering and torturing people. There is no way on earth you can spin them as the good guys here.

 

[neoanarch]

There is a very interesting theory that I just saw on Reddit about who the facility belongs to. It makes a lot of sense too but it doesn't immediately clarify on the "good or bad" part.


Also: Mandatory Death Star discussion.

And the theory is?

 

[ascii42]

Think about all the construction workers who died on the death star!

Yeah, they may even have been staging a coup, like this guy, until that jerk Nathan Drake killed him.

 

[Htown]

SHIELD cant be "the good guys" and act the way they did there. Everything we know about the situation puts SHIELD in the wrong. You cant just storm facilities you have no idea about and kill people employed to guard it and try and pass it off as "bad guys" in your way. Coulson had no idea what the purpose of the site is, if they showed some random scene of someone being killed or tortured at the site it would be a less fucked up thing to do, but in this episode SHIELD are the ones murdering and torturing people. There is no way on earth you can spin them as the good guys here.

1. they essentially tortured Coulson, he begged them to let him die. they didn't because they wanted to bring him back to life to do their crazy experiment

2. Dead bodies, alien or not, don't usually continue to produce useful fluids. what would you call what they did to the alien in there?

 

[kirblar]

SHIELD cant be "the good guys" and act the way they did there. Everything we know about the situation puts SHIELD in the wrong. You cant just storm facilities you have no idea about and kill people employed to guard it and try and pass it off as "bad guys" in your way. Coulson had no idea what the purpose of the site is, if they showed some random scene of someone being killed or tortured at the site it would be a less fucked up thing to do, but in this episode SHIELD are the ones murdering and torturing people. There is no way on earth you can spin them as the good guys here.

Good is relative. SHIELD has operated in that shades of grey/moral relativism space forever.

 

[Kai Dracon]

If anything, compared to the comics, this show usually makes S.H.I.E.L.D people look too nice, warm, and fuzzy.

In comics the average good guy carries a coin to flip in order to decide if shield is friend or enemy on a given day.

 

[Jest Chillin]

And the theory is?

Throwing it in spoiler tags just in case.

Spoiler

That the facility is a S.W.O.R.D. facility. It matches with the code name Guest House (as in it would be a facility that off-world Aliens and their tech would be housed in during their stay) and with the Kree being there as well. S.W.O.R.D. is associated with S.H.I.E.L.D. but not apart of it which would explain Fury's knowledge of the place but the lack of info in the S.H.I.E.L.D. database. S.W.O.R.D. was also a Joss Whedon created organization if Wiki can be trusted. The reason why I don't think it sheds light on the good or bad thing is, we haven't seen how S.W.O.R.D. is implemented in the MCU yet.

 

[Htown]

Good is relative. SHIELD has operated in that shades of grey/moral relativism space forever.

If anything, compared to the comics, this show usually makes S.H.I.E.L.D people look too nice, warm, and fuzzy.

In comics the average good guy carries a coin to flip in order to decide if shield is friend or enemy on a given day.

also these

 

[Joni]

I haven't followed the situation with the Ukraine at all but I am curious as to why you're trying to bring that into a discussion about a tv show.

Because it is a nice real life counterpoint to what Coulson did.

Good is relative. SHIELD has operated in that shades of grey/moral relativism space forever.

SHIELD is grey, the guys they're showing are supposed to be good. They're supposed to be different from the others, the writers want us to believe they're the white to the SHIELD grey. It is why they want us to cheer them on when they oppose Hand and the other SHIELD executives.

But I'm out, I'm not going to keep showing examples why it was bad writing. If they made Coulson and the others have grey moralities, nobody would care about this.

 

[BattleMonkey]

I can't believe people are freaking out about Coulson and company killing those guards. They gave them like three chances to not shoot at them and they opened fire anyways. I'm sure the guards understood things when they took that job. They're either gonna be fine or they'll likely die protecting the lab. From whoever.

When the show for many episodes has gone out of their way to have Coulson and crew actively trying to protect/save people who are actively trying to kill them, yet some random dudes are perfectly ok to kill because plot convenience, then yea it sticks out. Protecting lives and using non lethal means is being jammed down our throats despite the risk to lives, yet the show just ignores all that because some guys aren't relevant to the plot.

 

[Funky Papa]

Not only that, but Coulson's team is otherwise very much against using firearms and in the rare occasion they use them they out themselves as complete fucking incompetent.

And then they go and storm that base like no thang.

 

[Jest Chillin]

When the show for many episodes has gone out of their way to have Coulson and crew actively trying to protect/save people who are actively trying to kill them, yet some random dudes are perfectly ok to kill because plot convenience, then yea it sticks out. Protecting lives and using non lethal means is being jammed down our throats despite the risk to lives, yet the show just ignores all that because some guys aren't relevant to the plot.

No, they are "ok to kill" because Skye is dying. They don't have the convenience of time to play with non-lethal measures so they are doing what must be done to get what they need to try to save her life. Even to the detriment of Skye.

Coulson: "Don't give it to her"
Simmons: *finishes pushing it and removes needle*
Simmons: "I was losing her anyways, what harm can it do."

At this point the team is aware of the kind of torment that Coulson suffered.. so the "what harm can it do" is completely selfish.

Why is it hard to understand that when the "heart" of the team is dying, all the steps the team as taken forward morally go out the window in an attempt to save her? This episode repeatedly nails it in that Skye's condition makes the entire group give zero fucks about moral rightousness. They default back to the ends justify the means.

May beats the crap out of Quinn, no one cares. Then they threaten to kill Quinn if Skye ends up dying.. no one really cares about that either. Then they decide that they'll try to get access to the facility peacefully but won't hesitate to kill their way in if they have to. Nothing else matters except saving Skye. And Paxton's character along with his protege don't care either way because they're typical SHIELD agents. Ends justify the means is just another day to them since they don't have a Skye to influence them.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Think about all the construction workers who died on the death star!

Oh man..I knew it would come up at some point lol.

 

[Dai101]

I can't believe people are freaking out about Coulson and company killing those guards.

Nerds will nitpick. What else they can do?

 

[Funky Papa]

Nerds will nitpick. What else they can do?

You have a Cobra avatar and you are posting on a Mahvel thread on GAF's OT.

Bitch please.

 

[pants]

1. they essentially tortured Coulson, he begged them to let him die. they didn't because they wanted to bring him back to life to do their crazy experiment

2. Dead bodies, alien or not, don't usually continue to produce useful fluids. what would you call what they did to the alien in there?

1) they saved his life at the behest of his boss, you dont see him killing Nick Fury?

2) irrelevant coulson doesnt know about it

Good is relative. SHIELD has operated in that shades of grey/moral relativism space forever.

My entire point is that they are in the grey (in this case the antagonizers others the saviours) however people are refusing to see that they arent the 'good' party here. Everything shield does is right I suppose :/

If anything, compared to the comics, this show usually makes S.H.I.E.L.D people look too nice, warm, and fuzzy.

In comics the average good guy carries a coin to flip in order to decide if shield is friend or enemy on a given day.

Indeed this is the shield i know

 

[coolasj19]

After realizing that nothing in Agents of SHIELD can be spoiled because it's all original content, I decided to hope in. And immediately upon arrival I see 2 banned people that were in the midst of a ferocious argument. Nice.

I think we're in for a real re-alignment when Skye gets back. If they reveal the full scope of their actions to her, her character should demand that she will be utterly appalled. It's entirely possible this episode was to show the team with and without Skye. The entire team was very "Whatever it takes" and "Ends justify the means" the entire way through. Something I don't remember seeing too much of since episode 1 or so.

 

[BlackNMild2k1]

My entire point is that they are in the grey (in this case the antagonizers others the saviours) however people are refusing to see that they arent the 'good' party here. Everything shield does is right I suppose :/

I think it's been argued from the start that no one was arguing that Coulson & Co. were in the right, as this wasn't about right and wrong. They did what they felt necessary given the situation and what was at stake.

Throwing it in spoiler tags just in case.

Spoiler

That the facility is a S.W.O.R.D. facility. It matches with the code name Guest House (as in it would be a facility that off-world Aliens and their tech would be housed in during their stay) and with the Kree being there as well. S.W.O.R.D. is associated with S.H.I.E.L.D. but not apart of it which would explain Fury's knowledge of the place but the lack of info in the S.H.I.E.L.D. database. S.W.O.R.D. was also a Joss Whedon created organization if Wiki can be trusted. The reason why I don't think it sheds light on the good or bad thing is, we haven't seen how S.W.O.R.D. is implemented in the MCU yet.

That is very interesting and I hope that is where this goes especially with

Spoiler

GotG and Cosmic Marvel being rapidly expanded.

It would be nice to know that at the highest level of SHIELD, Fury had already known about all these alien species and the space equivalent of SHIELD. It would make sense that Coulson doesn't know this stuff, as his clearance level is obviously not nearly high enough to even know this kind of stuff.

 

[Qurupeke]

First of all, hello everyone! Recently I catched up with the MCU and I also decided to watch this series as a friend was really enthusiastic over AoS. Well, I can't really disagree with him as, despite all this negativity from GAF and quite a few other sites I enjoyed the show. I didn't experience all those hype-breaking breaks though.

Anyway, the first few episodes were kind of boring but quite promising and the last 3-4 really delivered for me. It's certainly not a show of high quality but nevertheless I like it. The humour is great, the fights are pretty cool and I really love the marvel (movies) references here and there in every episode. Oh, Simmons and Skye are awesome too.

So, about the latest episode, I really liked the Kree(?) reveal at the end and it was something that I definitely did not expect. I thought Coulson was a clone/android or something, not that he actually was resurrected. I guess this will be the focus of the rest of season 1 along with the clairvoyant. Oh and episode 15 seems nice, even though I wanted more on from episode 14's stuff...

 

[Father_Brain]

Why is it hard to understand that when the "heart" of the team is dying, all the steps the team as taken forward morally go out the window in an attempt to save her? This episode repeatedly nails it in that Skye's condition makes the entire group give zero fucks about moral rightousness. They default back to the ends justify the means.

That would still require that (a) Skye's role as the heart of the team actually feel earned and not like the writers hamfistedly telling viewers how they should feel about her, and (b) some acknowledgement of the potential moral ambiguity of the team's actions to save her.

 

[Jest Chillin]

That would still require that (a) Skye's role as the heart of the team actually feel earned and not like the writers hamfistedly telling viewers how they should feel about her, and (b) some acknowledgement of the potential moral ambiguity of the team's actions to save her.

A) will vary person to person, but it's not something that I've had a problem with understanding at all. I actually wonder of the people whoo don't feel it's been earned.. how many actually like the show and how many already have one foot out the door? People tend not to give much attention to things they don't enjoy in the first place. As for the second.. I don't think that they really need to blatantly acknowledge it but even with that being my feelings, they did touch on it with dialogue between Paxton's character and Coulson. Coulson tries to hand wave it but it didn't seem like Paxton really bought it.

 

[X05]

As an aside, people seem to forget that this episode and the previous one were actually back to back. The only time of "rest" they got was while Skye was being operated on, it's clear throughout the episode that the characters are tired, frustrated and angry (May beating down Quinn is an example of this).

 

[eastx]

So, about the latest episode, I really liked the Kree(?) reveal at the end and it was something that I definitely did not expect. I thought Coulson was a clone/android or something, not that he actually was resurrected. I guess this will be the focus of the rest of season 1 along with the clairvoyant. Oh and episode 15 seems nice, even though I wanted more on from episode 14's stuff...

Glad you're liking the show! I'm excited about the potential Kree connection too. But it will be super interesting to see how the show handles Lorelei and Lady Sif, as that's the kind of thing people have been asking for since day one as well.

 

[Father_Brain]

A) will vary person to person, but it's not something that I've had a problem with understanding at all. I actually wonder of the people whoo don't feel it's been earned.. how many actually like the show and how many already have one foot out the door? People tend not to give much attention to things they don't enjoy in the first place. As for the second.. I don't think that they really need to blatantly acknowledge it but even with that being my feelings, they did touch on it with dialogue between Paxton's character and Coulson. Coulson tries to hand wave it but it didn't seem like Paxton really bought it.

...so you're saying that because my opinion differs from yours, I need to like the show in order to offer valid criticism of it? Huh?

And for what it's worth, I actually enjoy the show despite its general mediocrity. If I found it as outright terrible as some here do, it'd be a lot easier to just accept it as garbage that will never come close to realizing its immense potential.

 

[Jest Chillin]

...so you're saying that because my opinion differs from yours, I need to like the show in order to offer valid criticism of it? Huh?

And for what it's worth, I actually enjoy the show despite its general mediocrity. If I found it as outright terrible as some here do, it'd be a lot easier to just accept it as garbage that will never come close to realizing its immense potential.

I'm not insinuating that your criticism isn't valid as much as I'm wondering if there's a disconnect. And not just for you but for people in general. For characters like May and Ward, I could understand a viewer not connecting with them because the writers have done a really poor job of making them relatable in any way (they've both only had one episode that focused on that). Skye though has had the greatest focus and has been the moral compass through influence. She's always been the catalyst of the moral good that the team has done. So even if you don't actively feel for her, it should be logically understood that she's the heart and her dying is the reason why the team is being so ruthless.

So the only reason I can think of why someone wouldn't catch that would be if they were sort of half watching due to lack of interest. Like they're seeing the episodes and get the general idea of what's happening but are missing specifics.

But this is why I posed it as a question. Because I know that I understood that she's the heart and it didn't come across as ham fisted because they're not actively acknowledging it in the show itself. The characters are just reacting to the situation. Obviously my feeling that way doesn't mean everyone else does but I was curious as to whether that split was influenced at all by the overall goal of the person watching.

 

[Father_Brain]

Skye though has had the greatest focus and has been the moral compass through influence. She's always been the catalyst of the moral good that the team has done. So even if you don't actively feel for her, it should be logically understood that she's the heart and her dying is the reason why the team is being so ruthless.

So the only reason I can think of why someone wouldn't catch that would be if they were sort of half watching due to lack of interest. Like they're seeing the episodes and get the general idea of what's happening but are missing specifics.

No, I've definitely been paying attention to the show and Skye's role in this episode has been set up. It's just that most of that setup has felt forced and unnatural, as though the writers were telling us: "Skye is the best character on this show and if you disagree with us, you are wrong."

The writers clearly intend for us to be as invested in Skye's fate as the rest of the characters are, and if you're not, an episode like this just isn't going to work.

 

[Jest Chillin]

No, I've definitely been paying attention to the show and Skye's role in this episode has been set up. It's just that most of that setup has felt forced and unnatural, as though the writers were telling us: "Skye is the best character on this show and if you disagree with us, you are wrong."

The writers clearly intend for us to be as invested in Skye's fate as the rest of the characters are, and if you're not, an episode like this just isn't going to work.

Then maybe it's the other way around where my enjoyment of the show made the writing more effective for me.

 

[eastx]

I think Skye is fine, but some people do continue objecting to her. The only character I could do without is Banana Republic, but even he has been better lately.

 

[Ripclawe]

No, I've definitely been paying attention to the show and Skye's role in this episode has been set up. It's just that most of that setup has felt forced and unnatural, as though the writers were telling us: "Skye is the best character on this show and if you disagree with us, you are wrong."

The writers clearly intend for us to be as invested in Skye's fate as the rest of the characters are, and if you're not, an episode like this just isn't going to work.

This right here. WE all can see the setup, which characters are supposed to be what and why we should care but the execution of it has been downright horrible.

 

[anaron]

Liking that Sif preview. Wonder how/if she'll boost the ratings

 

[Shaanyboi]

Slowly catching up. Recenly just watched the episode at the SHIELD academy. I dunno... this show's fine by in large. The episode with the Chutauri helmet is still the best one I've yet seen.

It's nothing I feel is demanding my attention though. I watch it because I enjoy the MCU. I know major heroes aren't going to show up, so that doesn't bother me. I mean it's kind of the point - to flesh out the universe in ways the movies can't or probably won't. But similarly, what's going with the characters, the relatively toothless action... nothing really makes much of an impact.

 

[Morokh]

I just have to ask :

Spoiler

what/who was that blue guy ?

 

[Htown]

I just have to ask :

Spoiler

what/who was that blue guy ?

Speculation is that it's most likely one of these.

 

[TheOddOne]

New episode today:

Season 1: episode 15 "Yes Men"

Spoiler

When Coulson and his team are attacked by Lorelei--a deadly seductress who escaped from Asgard--Thor's Lady Sif, her longtime nemesis, steps in to try to save them.

 

[TheOddOne]

- Thor: The Dark World twitter account just tweeted this *Spoilers*

 

[eastx]

- Thor: The Dark World twitter account just tweeted this *Spoilers*

That's not a spoiler. It's public knowledge that she'll be on the show.