Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade
- Thread starter Moral Panic
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From the direct screenshots I linked a few pages back (not taken off some shitty Russian stream) I have no idea how anyone can call this game "oh god so ugly". I can somewhat understand people being disappointed, but calling the game ugly is a new kind of weird to me.
Not trying to start arguing, I'm just perplexed.
air jordans for dogs
Member
So, just like dark souls 1 on consoles?
From the direct screenshots I linked a few pages back (not taken off some shitty Russian stream) I have no idea how anyone can call this game "oh god so ugly". I can somewhat understand people being disappointed, but calling the game ugly is a new kind of weird to me.
Not trying to start arguing, I'm just perplexed.
I hear you. I have watched nearly the entire game and it is far from ugly. I can't wait for people to see some of the locations.
Stone Ocean
Member
It depends on the area. Majula looks good, but the initial area and the forest and it's fortress - the area people keep showing in comparisons - is really, really ugly - specially the forest, oh god por que. Granted, I'm probably being unfair since the first few areas in Souls games are hardly artistic showcases but these make my eyes bleed - did I mention how bad the forest area looks?From the direct screenshots I linked a few pages back (not taken off some shitty Russian stream) I have no idea how anyone can call this game "oh god so ugly". I can somewhat understand people being disappointed, but calling the game ugly is a new kind of weird to me.
Not trying to start arguing, I'm just perplexed.
If FROM delivers on the texture thingy for the PC version I won't have much to complain about, I guess.
From what I've played - 3 hours-ish - it seems a lot better than the first game performance-wise, so I guess there's one upside to the downgrade lol
I don't know.
The early footage always looked ugly and hell of blownout and oversaturated to me.
Now most of the new stuff looks super washed out like someone cranked up the contrast.
Both kind of look bad.
Only shots that look "right" are from that Giantbomb user. And those look completely fine.
I think I'm fine with all of this.
As for other downgrades, these things happen in game development.
The early footage always looked ugly and hell of blownout and oversaturated to me.
Now most of the new stuff looks super washed out like someone cranked up the contrast.
Both kind of look bad.
Only shots that look "right" are from that Giantbomb user. And those look completely fine.
I think I'm fine with all of this.
As for other downgrades, these things happen in game development.
Yeah, the Soul series has fucking awesome art and graphics. Sure, they're not trying to push a billion shaders or whatever like Crysis, but they can be beautiful games to look at. Hell, I'd say that the beauty of the games help reward the effort you put into it.
Ash Lake, motherfuckers.
Not 2 damn months before the game ships they don't.
This.
It's so against what the original vision seemed to be that all in all, I just want to know if From is actually satisfied with this game in its current state. For all I know they consider it an overall disappointment themselves (after all the cutting they did during optimisation, how could they not?) and want to redeem their original vision for PS4. It seems back when they were developing the game for reveal, they finally developed a taste for good graphics - having to strip all that back would've pissed off the art team haha, and with all the media asking them about a PS4 version all the time, how could they not feel encouraged to go just ahead and do it?
It's these sorts of questions which make this whole thing unbearable - not necessarily graphics themselves but what it means for the future of the game's releases (hence people now waiting anxiously for PC news)
I was there again just last night and was thinking to myself, 'technical flare is not shit compared to the art on display here.' The twisted branches of wicked looking trees in the distance, the use of color with the pale blues. And to top it off, the music that was playing. There is just nothing like it, despite what it lacks technically. That is Dark Souls in a nutshell. But thankfully, this game does have some extra technical juice to bring out the amazing art even more. I'll take it.
KCroxtonJr
Member
rarely? pretty sure a ton of movies come out on dvd/blu ray with "deleted scenes".
food doesnt take 3 years to make, so its easy to fix any issues.
the game looks a bit different, but its still the same game technically. its reaching a bit to call it false advertisement.
all that being said, they definitely shouldnt get a free pass, and im hoping this whole thing does get noticed. i wont sit here and call FROM tricksters and liars though, in the end they promised darks souls 2 and have given us that, just uglier than it was before.
the over exagerration in this thread is crazy, cancelling pre orders and not wanting to buy the game because the GRAPHICS got downgraded? lmaooo see you guys online!
zephervack
Member
Just for case in point of what I am talking about, the differences between the demo and the final console build are pretty massive.
Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Normal Mapping, and looks like a DOF effect.
This makes me so sad, huge downgrade, im guessing that the demo was something a group at FROM worked for months, adding little details, nuances and lightning that just wouldnt be possible to create in the entirety of the game without a huge budget and they will most likely be missing from the PC release.
Here is a couple of GIFs I made of the staircase for people saying its not the same area, both GIFs are without torch. BTW if both GIFs kept going, you would realize the staircase leads to the same enemy encounter, so it is most def the same area, they just added a door for gameplay purposes I imagine.
Notice the speculars in the walls, the horrible lightning of the retail. The textures of the walls before entering the staircase are completely different from retail, My goodness
DEMO
RETAIL
air jordans for dogs
Member
Hope they put out a statement or something about the lighting biz because this is just messed up.
Deleted scenes have nothing to do with "not being finished" - they aren't used in films as they aren't needed, and because of this aren't ever polished up.
We just want to play the intended game.
I don't doubt the game will be fun (this is coming from someone that platinum'd both DeS and DkS1), but this is some of the worst bait-and-switch I've seen for a game in quite some time. Didn't they make a huuuge deal out of the upgraded engine and the new lighting system when it was announced?
DEMO
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Nice comparison. I find it hard to believe the PC version will have all this stuff from the demo still intact, but hopefully it can be done with a combination of settings.
symphonask
Member
PC version might have the good lighting back but the sad part is it won't get back all the lost environmental detail that the demo version has.
Lighting from that source probably wasn't programmed to cast dynamic shadows at that point.
Mainstream news almost never runs stories like this, and they almost certainly won't directly ask Bandai.
Dark Souls 1 had the Specular Highlights and Normal Mapping. Its not only a direct downgrade from the demo footage of the sequel, its a direct downgrade from the original game.
RPS might...
Garcia
Member
DEMO
RETAIL
Thank you for those GIFs, they show exactly where the main problem resides. And it's not just the lighting. The textures and many other things took a severe blow as well.
This also needs to be repeated: Those 2 correspond exactly to same spot in the game.
zephervack
Member
List of stuff I notice are better in the Demo
Textures more detailed.
Specular in the walls (shinning walls)
Ambient lightning in the staircase (Retail is just grey)
More assets (look at the cobwebs in the ceiling in starcase)
Polycount is higher (look at the blocks that make the border of the door, completely missing in Retail)
The more I think about it the more im conviced the Demo was highly curated to impress Journos, anyone remember EDGE saying it looked next gen... maybe this is why.
The weird thing, at least with geometry and assets is... why remove them from the retail if at least that area was finished for the demos? Could they be such a performance hog?
KCroxtonJr
Member
when did i ever say the scenes were removed because they werent finished? i simply pointed out that scenes are actually removed before the movie was finalized. point is, shit changes for whatever reason, i doubt they WANTED to remove the scenes. hell they spent time and money on them.
I want to play the game with those graphics as well, and am pretty upset a this is happening to my most anticipated game this year, but it is really ridiculous to say its not the intended game anymore. it is still dark souls 2, same story, same locations, combat, enemies etc.
I am sure that EDGE previewed it on a laptop originally if i remeber correctly, that was the preview that they said it looked next gen.
DEMO
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Will people stop arguing that we don't have enough information now?
What gets me about this GIF is that the staircase was probably there in the first place simply as a cool "gateway" to warn the player they were entering a dark area, and that was its core purpose - there's no enemies in there, it's empty and safe. If you watch the reveal footage, it's clear they made use of the long tunnel-format of the staircase so as to give players enough room to dash forward until they finally figured out they needed to go back out and equip the torch (as some players would try to simply progress THROUGH the darkness and it would take a while for the "i need to go back out" to click, so the level design itself needed to compensate for that by giving the player enough safe space to push through until the 'click' happened). That space plays a purpose in teaching the player something, if you will. You can watch it happening in this very GIF - the player runs in and then runs back out again once he's realised he really needs a torch.
This is probably why FROM chose this spot specifically to first introduce players to their light/dark mechanic in the reveal. The torch mechanics and their need are taught clearly by the game itself.
This is just my interpretation and I'm no level designer, but watching the reveal footage, this is how that one tiny area fitted in the flow of that stage's design. Anyone who plays the Souls games knows that this sort of rythmic flow of level design is crucial and can be the difference between a fun Souls level and a boring Souls level.
Now this staircase just a big, useless and briefly boring space.
According to a GAFer here there are a lot of torch areas which are now useless - imagine how much of the level design and pacing got messed with by this change. How many "boring, drab" areas have you heard about that may have once been there to do something more interesting as you went through them?
The idea with the staircase in the GIF that you would go down that staircase and see a new type of enemy emerging from the shadows. Its appearance would be sudden and exciting. Now what you see when you go down there is an enemy standing dumbly in a large empty room. Yawn.
Just tweeted Patrick over at Giantbomb with a link to Brohan's gifs detailing the issues. EDIT: Looks like they were zephervack's gifs. Oh well, Brohan's post doesn't have quote spam from myself.
If you guys want to retweet, that would be excellent https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443048074034683905
Retweet this as well, had good success with him during the Sega PC port campaign: https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443050162512883712
Otherwise, you should tweet yourself.
VG247: @VG247 @m_spitz @davescook
PCGamer: @PC_Gamer @ELahti @logandecker @SamuelWRoberts
Joystiq: @joystiq @Xav
If you guys want to retweet, that would be excellent https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443048074034683905
Retweet this as well, had good success with him during the Sega PC port campaign: https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443050162512883712
Otherwise, you should tweet yourself.
VG247: @VG247 @m_spitz @davescook
PCGamer: @PC_Gamer @ELahti @logandecker @SamuelWRoberts
Joystiq: @joystiq @Xav
This makes me so sad, huge downgrade, im guessing that the demo was something a group at FROM worked for months, adding little details, nuances and lightning that just wouldnt be possible to create in the entirety of the game without a huge budget and they will most likely be missing from the PC release.
Here is a couple of GIFs I made of the staircase for people saying its not the same area, both GIFs are without torch. BTW if both GIFs kept going, you would realize the staircase leads to the same enemy encounter, so it is most def the same area, they just added a door for gameplay purposes I imagine.
Notice the speculars in the walls, the horrible lightning of the retail. The textures of the walls before entering the staircase are completely different from retail, My goodness
DEMO
RETAIL
Thank you for posting this, I feel like I understand what the issue is finally.
And as much as it pains me I won't be picking this up tomorrow until I feel like I have a better idea of what happened, how it affects gameplay (from what I'm reading so far it affects the torch mechanic), and why we're hearing about it on GAF with zero response from the dev. Waiting for some GAF impressions too.
I was bit by EA/DICE for the last time with BF4 and I'm not just blindly giving my money to anyone at this point.
I sent an email to RPS. For what it's worth, I'm still glad I've got it pre-ordered on Steam, but it would be nice to know what's up.Just tweeted Patrick over at Giantbomb with a link to Brohan's gifs detailing the issues. EDIT: Looks like they were zephervack's gifs. Oh well, Brohan's post doesn't have quote spam from myself.
If you guys want to retweet, that would be excellent https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443048074034683905
Retweet this as well, had good success with him during the Sega PC port campaign: https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443050162512883712
Otherwise, you should tweet yourself.
VG247: @VG247 @m_spitz @davescook
PCGamer: @PC_Gamer @ELahti @logandecker @SamuelWRoberts
Joystiq: @joystiq @Xav
This makes me so sad, huge downgrade, im guessing that the demo was something a group at FROM worked for months, adding little details, nuances and lightning that just wouldnt be possible to create in the entirety of the game without a huge budget and they will most likely be missing from the PC release.
Here is a couple of GIFs I made of the staircase for people saying its not the same area, both GIFs are without torch. BTW if both GIFs kept going, you would realize the staircase leads to the same enemy encounter, so it is most def the same area, they just added a door for gameplay purposes I imagine.
Notice the speculars in the walls, the horrible lightning of the retail. The textures of the walls before entering the staircase are completely different from retail, My goodness
DEMO
RETAIL
I prefer the retail version- The demo version was extremely dark, which was one of the criticisms to the game when people tried it, so I think it's good that they changed it.
Also the whole area is just different, not necessarily a downgrade.
The reason you don't have the specular is because there is more ambience light in the tunnel.
Just tweeted Patrick over at Giantbomb with a link to Brohan's gifs detailing the issues. EDIT: Looks like they were zephervack's gifs. Oh well, Brohan's post doesn't have quote spam from myself.
If you guys want to retweet, that would be excellent https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443048074034683905
Retweet this as well, had good success with him during the Sega PC port campaign: https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443050162512883712
Otherwise, you should tweet yourself.
VG247: @VG247 @m_spitz @davescook
PCGamer: @PC_Gamer @ELahti @logandecker @SamuelWRoberts
Joystiq: @joystiq @Xav
Done
DEMO
RETAIL
What's strange is that the demo version doesn't have the character cast a huge shadow on the wall while standing next to the flame while retail version does...
What's going on here?
Atmosphere killed....jesus
Team Klimt
Member
Just tweeted Patrick over at Giantbomb with a link to Brohan's gifs detailing the issues. EDIT: Looks like they were zephervack's gifs. Oh well, Brohan's post doesn't have quote spam from myself.
If you guys want to retweet, that would be excellent https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443048074034683905
Retweet this as well, had good success with him during the Sega PC port campaign: https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443050162512883712
Otherwise, you should tweet yourself.
VG247: @VG247 @m_spitz @davescook
PCGamer: @PC_Gamer @ELahti @logandecker @SamuelWRoberts
Joystiq: @joystiq @Xav
Really weak reply from Klepek :/ Figured he'd be all in on something this drastic. It's like Colonial Marines bad (tech-wise).
There is still no explanation of why the Beta build had all the flashiness. It's like a completely different game in that last comparison.
"It's just a demo" is not acceptable as an explanation. Something serious went down at FROM.
From hasn't held the hands of the lowest common denominator before and have built quite a fan base because of it. Why start now?
Its literally a downgrade in every aspect.
And here we go....
Garcia
Member
We have all been trying to gather as much evidence in order to construct the puzzle. Some people have already mentioned the same thing, that this was just a (PC version) vertical slice used only to impress the media and many potential buyers.
Up to this point it's all speculation and gambling. There's either a superior PC version out there or there isn't.
This is a somewhat poor comparison only because the top footage is from a year old quite possibly PC build that was used in the initial gameplay reveal.
We have actual preview build footage of this area running on PS3 from TGS. I suggest that the people making gifs use that instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GdJP_Jhs2s&feature=player_detailpage#t=160
Just tweeted Patrick over at Giantbomb with a link to Brohan's gifs detailing the issues. EDIT: Looks like they were zephervack's gifs. Oh well, Brohan's post doesn't have quote spam from myself.
If you guys want to retweet, that would be excellent https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443048074034683905
Retweet this as well, had good success with him during the Sega PC port campaign: https://twitter.com/Grief_exe/status/443050162512883712
Otherwise, you should tweet yourself.
VG247: @VG247 @m_spitz @davescook
PCGamer: @PC_Gamer @ELahti @logandecker @SamuelWRoberts
Joystiq: @joystiq @Xav
thx, retweeted.
I am not happy at all, I was really looking forward to DS2 and something clearly changed.
Stone Ocean
Member
The area is different because of the downgrade? I mean come on, you have less polygons and shittier textures, yeah they're "different".
Also if the demo was too dark then the retail game is too bright. Doesn't help that this particular area is basically this one shade of gray.
double jump
you haven't lived until a random little kid ask you "how do you make love".
damn I thought it was just the lighting, cant believe its the assets as well. I'm still hype but this is getting worse and worse.
Alcoholikaust
Member
the game looked sooo great. going to be soo dissapointed tomorrow
zephervack
Member
My guess is that there is a superior PS3 and PC version, but just of that area, as Dark10x said, he played that part in a PS3 with no smoke and mirrors and it looked like that.
Im utterly convinced that the rest of the game was never ever going to show that amount of detail or lightning. But I sure hope im wrong and somehow the PC build has different textures, lightning and poly count.
Why is it a downgrade in every aspect? I think that the demo version is extremely blown up in terms of lighting. The textures also look a lot cleaner and crisp on the retail version, and the torch is actually casting dynamic shadows on the character and door.
If there's one thing that is awful in both version is the walking animation. No excuse for that one.
And if you want most of the game to be like Tomb of the Giants, well then you seem to be out luck. I'm happy that they apparently changed that.
Garcia
Member
I saw that footage last night as well. Yes, I agree it's more useful to compare the retail to the most recent demo. It also shows the same effects.
"It's happens all the time" is a pretty awful response. It was shown 2 months before it came out. C'mon, Patrick.Patrick's response.
Anyone make comparison gif between retail and demo of the Mirror Knight portion?
It keeps the focus on the most important issue and removes the "PC DEMO BUILD" aspect from the discussion.
This is apples to apples.
I'd say the best angle to approach this is to also demonstrate how severely this affects gameplay, make gifs of the turtle knight encounter on both versions. On the final release you can just run in there without a torch and see the enemies perfectly. There's no "OH SHIT" moment or tactical consideration in terms of visibility.
It's a huge gameplay change/downgrade.
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