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[Evander]

Why should Spanish speakers get special treatment? Why should companies have to have at least one person that speaks Spanish just to accommodate people that either don't care or just plain refuse to learn English?

Um... They DON'T have to.

Companies CHOOSE to do it, if they think it'll help them get business.

Gotta love the free market.

 

[Flynn]

Why should companies have to have at least one person that speaks Spanish just to accommodate people that either don't care or just plain refuse to learn English?

Because these companies are smart and want to do business.

I think the better question is "Why do people have a problem with people who don't speak English?" What exactly are these folks doing that make your life so difficult? Are you really interacting that frequently with people who don't speak a lick of English? What circumstances could you possibly be in that everywhere you turn there's a guy who can't answer you?

 

[Dark Octave]

I'm a second generation American, born and raised in our nation's capital. I come from a family of proud Americans. My immigrant grandfather was NEVER happier than when he was paying his taxes.

There is NO law that says you have to speak english in america. if these folks want to move up in the world, they'll have to learn english. Let the market force them to learn when they are ready, stop thinking that you are better than them just because you were born here.

America is about freedom, and part of that is speaking whatever language you choose. Love it or leave it, bub.

I hate when people try to put words in my mouth. Nobody here is saying anyone is better than anybody. I'm learning Spanish because I want to broaden my world. I want to be able to communicate with a wider range of people. Why would I think I'm better than someone if I choose to dive into their world? I live close enough to Mexico that it makes sense for me to learn it as well.

Bottom line, unless you have no desire to become more than a custodian, you need to speak English in America. If you plan to conduct any type of business from Burger King casher to mayor of a US city, you NEED to speak English. There is no choice when it comes to these things, they ARE REQUIRED.

Even Gaf follows this pholosophy. There are many ESL Gaffers here, but guess what everyone speaks in order to be a cohesive part of this online community. That's right...

 

[madara]

Dont see a problem in the least. Perhaps stop trying so hard to be insulted should be your new 2008 goal.

 

[Tideas]

now you guys are branching into a totally completely different argument.

The judge told the people: Either you go to jail, or you can learn english, have a high school education, and have a job.

America's all about options. And so now they have their options. I don't see how this is a bad thing AT ALL.

Btw, speaking English IS a necessity you want to be successful. If you want to go to college.

However, some people don't have great goals in mind like others of us. They just want to make enough to see their kids grow up, go to college, and stuff like that.

And sometimes, people just CAN'T LEARN ENGLISH because of limitations. No matter how much my parents try, they just can't learn english cuz we came here and they were just too old.

Now they can speak some random words, and understand random words, but speaking english is never gonna be a thing for them.

Besides, bilingual >>> single language. ALWAYS

 

[Evander]

Nobody here is saying anyone is better than anybody.

No, they are just saying that other people should change for their own convenience.

 

[dark10x]

Yeah, I agree that this is a very lenient option provided by the judge. I would be thrilled if I were them.

I never understand why people who plan to live in another country REFUSE to at least attempt to learn the language. If one travels to another country on vacation, well, that's one thing...but living in an area where you refuse to speak the language (or attempt to learn it) is insane.

 

[captive]

Because these companies are smart and want to do business.

I think the better question is "Why do people have a problem with people who don't speak English?" What exactly are these folks doing that make your life so difficult? Are you really interacting that frequently with people who don't speak a lick of English? What circumstances could you possibly be in that everywhere you turn there's a guy who can't answer you?

It doesnt bother me one bit. No where have i said this has inconvenienced me. I have said and will continue to say that this judge not only did the correct thing but also did them a favor. It will do nothing but benefit these two guys for them to learn English.

The difference however being that i have studied spanish for 2 semesters and know enough to put basic sentences together enough to get by if i really had to. As compared to people who i know have been in America for 5, 10, 20 years and struggle to comprehend even the easiest of statements in English, let alone actually trying to respond in English.

And as others have said, if i were going to live in Spain or Mexico or France or anywhere that speaks a different language i wouldnt presume to be arrogant enough to expect that the native peoples of these countries learn the language i speak just to accommodate me.

 

[Dali]

I'm a second generation American, born and raised in our nation's capital. I come from a family of proud Americans. My immigrant grandfather was NEVER happier than when he was paying his taxes.

There is NO law that says you have to speak english in america. if these folks want to move up in the world, they'll have to learn english. Let the market force them to learn when they are ready, stop thinking that you are better than them just because you were born here.

America is about freedom, and part of that is speaking whatever language you choose. Love it or leave it, bub.

Language is a unifying factor. Until English is made the official language we'll always be a nation of immigrants, with pockets of groups distrustful of one another, rather than just a nation.

All you folks getting scared are forgetting to look atthe socioeconomic status of the spanish speakers.

These are not captains of industry who have the power to change the way we speak.

All that'll happen is spanish replacing ebonics.

Sorry, but this made me chuckle a bit.

You have to be shitting me. The prevalence of Spanish has noticeably increased over the years. Even though these people may not be the "captains of industry" you have increased instances of Spanish only commercials, bi-lingual customer service, increased instances of Spanish being a taught in border schools, increased desire for Spanish speaking employees, etc.

Saying that at best Spanish will replace Ebonics is silly.

 

[theBishop]

now you guys are branching into a totally completely different argument.

The judge told the people: Either you go to jail, or you can learn english, have a high school education, and have a job.

America's all about options. And so now they have their options. I don't see how this is a bad thing AT ALL.

Btw, speaking English IS a necessity you want to be successful. If you want to go to college.

However, some people don't have great goals in mind like others of us. They just want to make enough to see their kids grow up, go to college, and stuff like that.

And sometimes, people just CAN'T LEARN ENGLISH because of limitations. No matter how much my parents try, they just can't learn english cuz we came here and they were just too old.

Now they can speak some random words, and understand random words, but speaking english is never gonna be a thing for them.

Besides, bilingual >>> single language. ALWAYS

- I'm not aware of the legal precedence, but it strikes me as overstepping authority. If the judge gave him a choice between converting to Catholicism or going to jail, would you defend that decision? America is about options, right? (according to whom?)

- Define "successful". If you think a person cannot have job, pay rent, and live a decent life in American without speaking English, you should get out of the sticks.

- I don't think the judge expects these people to ever go to college. Nor is college a gold standard for "success".

 

[Evander]

It doesnt bother me one bit. No where have i said this has inconvenienced me. I have said and will continue to say that this judge not only did the correct thing but also did them a favor. It will do nothing but benefit these two guys for them to learn English.

The difference however being that i have studied spanish for 2 semesters and know enough to put basic sentences together enough to get by if i really had to. As compared to people who i know have been in America for 5, 10, 20 years and struggle to comprehend even the easiest of statements in English, let alone actually trying to respond in English.

And as others have said, if i were going to live in Spain or Mexico or France or anywhere that speaks a different language i wouldnt presume to be arrogant enough to expect that the native peoples of these countries learn the language i speak just to accommodate me.

The difference is that if you go to spain, and don't speak spanish, it is YOUR choice, and you only hurt yourself if you don't.

So, by that logic, shouldn't it be the choice of spanish-only speakers in america whether or not they want to? There's no question that it will improve their quality of life, but forcing them to learn it because "this is Amurka, god dammit" is idiotic.

 

[Evander]

Sorry, but this made me chuckle a bit.

You have to be shitting me. The prevalence of Spanish has noticeably increased over the years. Even though these people may not be the "captains of industry" you have increased instances of Spanish only commercials, bi-lingual customer service, increased instances of Spanish being a taught in border schools, increased desire for Spanish speaking employees, etc. Saying that at best Spanish will replace Ebonics is silly.

And WHERE are these things occuring?

They are not occuring in every school in America, they are occuring in the specific areas where these communities are.



Thesame thing has happened many times in the past with different types of immigrants. When Jews were coming over here en mass, you had American school teaching in Yiddish, and such. Are youbeing forced to speak Yiddish today?

 

[dark10x]

The difference is that if you go to spain, and don't speak spanish, it is YOUR choice, and you only hurt yourself if you don't.

So, by that logic, shouldn't it be the choice of spanish-only speakers in america whether or not they want to? There's no question that it will improve their quality of life, but forcing them to learn it because "this is Amurka, god dammit" is idiotic.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I assume you are not suggesting that this judge in question is making such a statement. Nobody is claiming that you MUST learn English and their punishment is not the result of such a thing. They are being given an opportunity to do something good for themselves and they will be rewarded if they do so. They have the option to ignore the judge, however, and spend time in jail for their crimes.

 

[Evander]

Language is a unifying factor. Until English is made the official language we'll always be a nation of immigrants, with pockets of groups distrustful of one another, rather than just a nation.

We've done well for 200 years without an official language, why do we need one now all of the sudden?

 

[levious]

I haven't read the entire thread,

I'll never understand how some people REFUSE to at least attempt to read threads!!

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

What I don't understand is how it is possible for these guys to not have a basic understanding of English already.

I'm pretty sure I couldn't live in Germany for two years without just naturally picking up a basic grasp of the language. Just being fully immersed in it every day is going to give you an understanding.

I think you have to be willfully trying to not learn a language you are surrounded by, if you don't pick it up after two years.

 

[captive]

The difference is that if you go to spain, and don't speak spanish, it is YOUR choice, and you only hurt yourself if you don't.

So, by that logic, shouldn't it be the choice of spanish-only speakers in america whether or not they want to? There's no question that it will improve their quality of life, but forcing them to learn it because "this is Amurka, god dammit" is idiotic.

It is their choice, he gave them the option of going to jail for the crime(s) they committed or learning English. Pretty fucking good deal if you ask me.

I dont understand what problem you have with this. The sentence provided by the judge isnt forcing them to learn English.

 

[Evander]

I haven't read the entire thread.

Then go and read it.

I am HIGHLY in favor of the judges ruling. I agree that in order to move up in this society, one really does need to learn English.

However, on a general level, I oppose any notion of forcing a "national language", and I think those who want it are just being selfish pricks.

 

[Evander]

It is their choice, he gave them the option of going to jail for the crime(s) they committed or learning English. Pretty fucking good deal if you ask me.

I dont understand what problem you have with this. The sentence provided by the judge isnt forcing them to learn English.

Reread the first page.

I think the sentance is great.

I think the folks bitching that the clerk atthe supermarket speaks broken english are idiots.

 

[dark10x]

Then go and read it.

I am HIGHLY in favor of the judges ruling. I agree that in order to move up in this society, one really does need to learn English.

However, on a general level, I oppose any notion of forcing a "national language", and I think those who want it are just being selfish pricks.

Well then, I certainly agree with you.

I'll never understand how some people REFUSE to at least attempt to read threads!!

Hmm? Who said I was not going to attempt it? I've already read the first page and shall continue reading the rest following this post. However, stating that I had not yet finished reading provided me with one of the answers I was seeking.

I think the folks bitching that the clerk atthe supermarket speaks broken english are idiots.

I have mixed feelings on that. It certainly doesn't bother me that a clerk may not speak English, but it does seem odd that a company would hire someone for a position that requries some customer service skills (at least occasionally). Doesn't that seem strange?

I mean, I don't speak French and I certainly wouldn't expect to be given a job IN France where I have to communicate with others. I'd expect people to be somewhat bothered by that fact, to be honest, and I would be embarrassed myself.

 

[theBishop]

We've done well for 200 years without an official language, why do we need one now all of the sudden?

Because white suburban housewives don't want to hear "gibberish" at the grocery store, and white suburban husbands don't want to "Press 1 for English" when paying their bills over the phone.

 

[Dali]

And WHERE are these things occuring?

They are not occuring in every school in America, they are occuring in the specific areas where these communities are.

Thesame thing has happened many times in the past with different types of immigrants. When Jews were coming over here en mass, you had American school teaching in Yiddish, and such. Are youbeing forced to speak Yiddish today?

Trying to marginalize it won't make it any less true. I'd consider the pockets in which gaelic is the main spoke language a "specific area", but when these specific areas are sizable chunks of states if not entire states then you can see how a comparison to Yiddish or ebonics (which isn't even a language but I'm just using your example) is not exactly the same thing.

We've done well for 200 years without an official language, why do we need one now all of the sudden?

You say that as though the issue of an official language has never come up before in our nation's history (it was almost German). But yeah we haven't had an official language, likely because people just naturally gravitated to a common ground because they saw the benefit in standardization without it being forced on them.

 

[Evander]

Because white suburban housewives don't want to hear "gibberish" at the grocery store, and white suburban husbands don't want to "Press 1 for English" when paying their bills over the phone.

Just another thing to add to the list of reasons why I hate white people.

 

[Flynn]

i wouldnt presume to be arrogant enough to expect that the native peoples of these countries learn the language i speak just to accommodate me.

You'd be the exception. The stereotype of the "ugly American" didn't develop by accident.

 

[dark10x]

Just another thing to add to the list of reasons why I hate white people.

So you don't believe that such an attitude exists in other countries? I can tell you straight up that it most certainly does.

It varies from person to person, believe it or not.

 

[Evander]

Trying to it marginalize won't make it any less true. I'd consider the pockets in which gaelic is the main spoke language a "specific area", but when these specific areas are sizable chunks of states if not entire states then you can see how a comparison to Yiddish or ebonics (which isn't even a language put I'm just using your examples) is not exactly the same thing.

No ammount of exageration will make your slippery slope argument any less of a logical fallacy.



History has shown that families of immigrants tend to learn english within a generation or two of coming over here.

The folks speaking only Spanish may have some companies catering to them, but they themselves are not taking over and changeing things. There is a market, to supply is rising to meet demand, that's all. Demand will go down over the generations. There is no reason to expect demand to not decrease.

 

[Evander]

So you don't believe that such an attitude exists in other countries? I can tell you straight up that it most certainly does.

It varies from person to person, believe it or not.

No, I honestly keep a list of reasons to hate white people.



The difference with other countries, though, is that they actually DO have official state languages.

 

[captive]

No, I honestly keep a list of reasons to hate white people.

So you're about as racist as the people you hate? :lol

 

[levious]

Hmm? Who said I was not going to attempt it? I've already read the first page and shall continue reading the rest following this post. However, stating that I had not yet finished reading provided me with one of the answers I was seeking.

just poking fun at one of your statements dark, no big deal.

 

[Evander]

So you're about as racist as the people you hate? :lol

I never called anyone racist.

And, for the record, I hate all races equally, for different reasons, including my own.

I have a list for each.

 

[captive]

I have a list for each.

Ok then I take back the racist statement.

But. :lol

 

[dark10x]

I never called anyone racist.

And, for the record, I hate all races equally, for different reasons, including my own.

I have a list for each.

That's an unfortunate attitude.

Personally, I tend to judge people on an individual basis. To me, the personality of someone matters more than anything else. I couldn't imagine hating an entire "race", but if that's how you choose to view things, well, have fun.

 

[Xeke]

I never called anyone racist.

And, for the record, I hate all races equally, for different reasons, including my own.

I have a list for each.

Wow you're one racist motherfucker.:lol

Broad generalizations are always good.

Learning the de facto world language isn't going to be bad for anyone.:lol

 

[levious]

emoticons are on the list too.

 

[Dali]

No ammount of exageration will make your slippery slope argument any less of a logical fallacy.



History has shown that families of immigrants tend to learn english within a generation or two of coming over here.

The folks speaking only Spanish may have some companies catering to them, but they themselves are not taking over and changeing things. There is a market, to supply is rising to meet demand, that's all. Demand will go down over the generations. There is no reason to expect demand to not decrease.

Exaggeration? So some states don't fit my description?

Also I think you have forgotten what your original point was. You stated that Spanish will go the way of ebonics (lol). You suggested that they had to be "captains of industry" to change things, and I pointed out how wrong you are. Things are changing without them taking over positions of power because demand is increasing as you've stated. And why wouldn't demand decrease? How about the steady stream of Spanish-speaking immigrants?

 

[Evander]

That's an unfortunate attitude.

Personally, I tend to judge people on an individual basis. To me, the personality of someone matters more than anything else. I couldn't imagine hating an entire "race"...

Well, YEAH I judge people individually.

Where did you get the idea that I didn't?



The fact that I hate white people doesn't mean that I hate all individual white persons.

 

[Fatbot]

I never called anyone racist.

And, for the record, I hate all races equally, for different reasons, including my own.

I have a list for each.

Does that keep you out of jury duty like i've heard?

 

[dark10x]

Well, YEAH I judge people individually.

Where did you get the idea that I didn't?



The fact that I hate white people doesn't mean that I hate all individual white persons.

Then what, exactly, is the point of expressing hate? What advantage does this give you and how does this positively impact your lifestyle? If you judge individually, I don't understand the point behind hating a group when that group is defined by a collection of individuals.

I suppose that's what it means to be a racist. :\ Hopefully you'll be able to conquer that hate down the line as it can't be healthy...

 

[Evander]

Exaggeration? So some states don't fit my description?

Also I think you have forgotten what your original point was. You suggested that they had to be "captains of industry" to change things, and I pointed out how wrong you are. Things are changing without them taking over positions of power because demand is increasing as you've stated. And why wouldn't demand decrease? How about the steady stream of Spanish-speaking immigrants?

You're playing with words.

THEY are not changing things. The availability of spanish does notstrip you of the option of english. They are simply being catered to.

It's like complaining about adding ramps tobuildings for handicapped people.



And if there is an issue with the "steady stream" of immigrants, then do something productive to cut off that stream.


Right now there is no incentive for IAs to learn english and intigrate, and infact there is a disincentive, in being found out and deported.



You want to americanize them? grant them amnesty, and the english will follow.

 

[Flynn]

Learning the de facto world language isn't going to be bad for anyone.:lol

That's true. But trying to legislate which language that's going to be is counter to our country's core values.

 

[Evander]

Does that keep you out of jury duty like i've heard?

I also have a list of ways to get out of jury duty.

I have so many lists, I have to keep a list of them.

 

[Evander]

Then what, exactly, is the point of expressing hate?

It's a release of my frustrating. I may hate white people, for instance, but I don't discriminate against them.

 

[levious]

I suppose that's what it means to be a racist. :\ Hopefully you'll be able to conquer that hate down the line as it can't be healthy...

why are you taking that so seriously? He's probably also got some sweet-ass waffles to see you too (slightly used).

 

[Xeke]

You're playing with words.

THEY are not changing things. The availability of spanish does notstrip you of the option of english. They are simply being catered to.

It's like complaining about adding ramps tobuildings for handicapped people.



And if there is an issue with the "steady stream" of immigrants, then do something productive to cut off that stream.


Right now there is no incentive for IAs to learn english and intigrate, and infact there is a disincentive, in being found out and deported.





You want to americanize them? grant them amnesty, and the english will follow.

Maybe they could you know, come to this country legally like everyone else? If any other country in Europe had a problem with illegal immigrants they wouldn't be so easy on them. Can you see France supplying Spanish signage?

It's a release of my frustrating. I may hate white people, for instance, but I don't discriminate against them.

So you're basically Satan?

 

[Evander]

Maybe they could you know, come to this country legally like everyone else? If any other country in Europe had a problem with illegal immigrants they wouldn't be so easy on them. Can you see France supplying Spanish signage?

Yeah, FUCK the whole "give us your needy and hungry and ragged" bullshit!



Seriously, I am IN FAVOR of tightening the borders, and doing more to prevent IAs. I also think that deporting the ones already here is a huge mistake.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Because white suburban housewives don't want to hear "gibberish" at the grocery store, and white suburban husbands don't want to "Press 1 for English" when paying their bills over the phone.

Black suburbanites share these views. This is not a racial issue.

 

[Evander]

So you're basically Satan?

Well, the name Satan came from a character from the Hebraic book of Job, who was reffered to as "HaSa'tahn", which translates as "the adversary".

So I guess I might be.

 

[Dark Octave]

The availability of spanish does notstrip you of the option of english. They are simply being catered to.

It's like complaining about adding ramps tobuildings for handicapped people.

Not the same at all. One is to cater to people who can't walk even if they wanted to, the other caters to the lazy and further encourages them to stay limited. I think we can all agree that if you want to be successful in the US you need to start by become cohesive with it, and the only way to do that is to learn English.

 

[Evander]

Black suburbanites share these views. This is not a racial issue.

shh....

I'm busy hating on white people. I'll hate on black people later.

 

[Evander]

Not the same at all. One is to cater to people who can't walk even if they wanted to, the other caters to the lazy and further encourages them to stay limited. I think we can all agree that if you want to be successful in the US you need to become cohesive with it, and the only way to do that is to learn English.

So you think we should LIMIT the free market, in order to prevent the lazy from staying that way?

You have a right to your socialist views, but I disagree with them.