Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade

Ghazi said:
Guys, guys, guys, I'm sure the PC version will be fine, it's coming From (lol) the people who brought us the party boat!

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DAT LIGHTING
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DAT NEW ENGINE
 
wow... everything felt so... dull and grey when playing the x360 version... guess the thread explains a lot of my lack of excitement when playing through these NO-CONTRAST environments xD
 
FairXchange said:
The game they shipped is actually excellent though. That's what bothers me, you're protesting against a game that is fundamentally great in all the categories that are supposed to matter. Also, it still manages to look good in most areas! It stands up to my scrutiny, and I have the new consoles with all their enhanced visuals.
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You're right. Every company should just tout their amazing graphics and lighting, lying all the way straight up until release, just so people can get hyped up to buy their very ugly but very fun game.

I would be perfectly fine with that avenue of advertisement.
 
FairXchange said:
The game they shipped is actually excellent though. That's what bothers me, you're protesting against a game that is fundamentally great in all the categories that are supposed to matter. Also, it still manages to look good in most areas! It stands up to my scrutiny, and I have the new consoles with all their enhanced visuals.
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We're protesting for being lied to. I don't see what's so hard to understand here.
 
don't know if it's old news or not but it seems it has got Gamespot's Kevin VanOrd's attention (big fan of the souls games and the reviewer of all three games at GS)

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Metroid-Squadron said:
We're protesting for being lied to. I don't see what's so hard to understand here.
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That's a tough position to be in for a developer. Most of the previews this game had were in the form of live action trailers, then we had a beta, then we had a few videos mostly shot off-screen that showed the areas that have been downgraded in the final build.

The developers would obviously intend for the game to look its best, but what could they do when they, as a team, realize the hardware just cannot run the game at an acceptable level without some changes? Announce to the world that the game now looks worse in some areas, perhaps they were gagged by their publisher, because who would intentionally inspire doubt toward a game that is only beginning to take off as a franchise? The alternative was to just make the best possible game they can make given the hardware, and likely budget constraints, and deliver a game worthy of the Souls franchise.

I like the option they picked, because it probably was difficult choice to have to make either way. Ultimately, it resulted in a great game which is enough of an achievement in its own right.
 
FairXchange said:
That's a tough position to be in for a developer. Most of the previews this game had were in the form of live action trailers, then we had a beta, then we had a few videos mostly shot off-screen that showed the areas that have been downgraded in the final build.

The developers would obviously intend for the game to look its best, but what could they do when they, as a team, realize the hardware just cannot run the game at an acceptable level without some changes? Announce to the world that the game now looks worse in some areas, perhaps they were gagged by their publisher, because who would intentionally inspire doubt toward a game that is only beginning to take off as a franchise? The alternative was to just make the best possible game they can make given the hardware, and likely budget constraints, and deliver a game worthy of the Souls franchise.

I like the option they picked, because it probably was difficult choice either way and it resulted in a great game which is enough of an achievement in its own right.
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No? We were shown the game running live on what they said was PS3 several times. How is it possible that the game was running that well, and then several months before release they had to cut that significant effects and visuals out? How does this sound right? The beta had the visuals intact, there's plenty of video capture of it.

Of course they aren't going to announce that they had to cut stuff, but you don't keep showing gameplay footage of the better version after you had to gut it. That's the problem we are having. No one had any idea of the product being so much different than what has been shown throughout this past year, right up until release.

It might make a tad more sense if they had cut all of this, and the game ran like a dream, but it's running sub 30 fps most of the time on PS3, along with screen tearing issues on xbox.

This just doesn't add up, and any way you put it, someone was leading us on with false advertisement.
 
FairXchange said:
That's a tough position to be in for a developer. Most of the previews this game had were in the form of live action trailers, then we had a beta, then we had a few videos mostly shot off-screen that showed the areas that have been downgraded in the final build.

The developers would obviously intend for the game to look its best, but what could they do when they, as a team, realize the hardware just cannot run the game at an acceptable level without some changes? Announce to the world that the game now looks worse in some areas, perhaps they were gagged by their publisher, because who would intentionally inspire doubt toward a game that is only beginning to take off as a franchise? The alternative was to just make the best possible game they can make given the hardware, and likely budget constraints, and deliver a game worthy of the Souls franchise.

I like the option they picked, because it probably was difficult choice to have to make either way. Ultimately, it resulted in a great game which is enough of an achievement in its own right.
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1. The hardware can handle it just fine. It's FROM programmers who can't write a piece of optimized code even if their lives depended on it. The final game barely looks like a 360 launch title.

2. If they had to make cuts they would've known it months in advance, yet still decided to use a highly polished vertical slice of the game to fool people into buying the game.
 
FairXchange said:
That's a tough position to be in for a developer. Most of the previews this game had were in the form of live action trailers, then we had a beta, then we had a few videos mostly shot off-screen that showed the areas that have been downgraded in the final build.

The developers would obviously intend for the game to look its best, but what could they do when they, as a team, realize the hardware just cannot run the game at an acceptable level without some changes? Announce to the world that the game now looks worse in some areas, perhaps they were gagged by their publisher, because who would intentionally inspire doubt toward a game that is only beginning to take off as a franchise? The alternative was to just make the best possible game they can make given the hardware, and likely budget constraints, and deliver a game worthy of the Souls franchise.

I like the option they picked, because it probably was difficult choice to have to make either way. Ultimately, it resulted in a great game which is enough of an achievement in its own right.
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I can't fathom why you are apologizing for them. They should have absolutely kept players in the loop.

Right now what people want are answers. Why were they lied to? From Software, and their silence on the subject, is disappointing. They didn't pick the difficult choice. They picked the easy one. No delay. No statement. Just ship it and let their most loyal fans defend them.
 
Something happened. It's like the scrapped everything. Why would they need to change the geometry if the lighting was 2 taxing?

I'm glad the fans won't let them get off that easy. The press can't be expected to do anything other than suck at games.
 
Havel said:
Making a new thread titled:

#DarkSoulsDowngrade and #YOULIED a.k.a You got some splainin' to do, Namco
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Great idea.

You might want to think about discouraging comparisons between the preview and retail versions of the game, and focusing the thread specifically on trying to contract Namco Bandai and FROM regarding the downgrades. Hopefully a coordinated effort can break through to them.
 
epmode said:
Did the press get to play the initial reveal? I'm pretty sure no one did. It was already downgraded by the time anyone outside of From got to play the game.
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Either way, that's very different to a "target render" like Killzone 2 or something.
 
Fried Food said:
Something happened. It's like the scrapped everything. Why would they need to change the geometry if the lighting was 2 taxing?
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There were two major changes. The original reveal was never actually played by the press. By the time people outside of From got to play the game, the big geometry and texture changes had already happened. But at least the cool lighting and torch mechanic was still around. The lighting was only stripped at the very end, and not a single promotional video was released with the final lighting in place.

Zefah said:
Either way, that's very different to a "target render" like Killzone 2 or something.
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I suppose so. But from the end-user's perspective, what's the difference? There's no way to be certain that someone was playing the initial gameplay footage in realtime, right? And the product that was eventually released looks very different.
 
Alienous said:
Great idea.

You might want to think about discouraging comparisons between the preview and retail versions of the game, and focusing the thread specifically on trying to contract Namco Bandai and FROM regarding the downgrades. Hopefully a coordinated effort can break through to them.
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Right. That's what this thread is for. If anyone wants to do that, send them here.
 
epmode said:
I suppose so. But from the end-user's perspective, what's the difference? There's no way to be certain that someone was playing the initial gameplay footage in realtime, right? And the product that was eventually released looks very different.
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One is realistic and causes reasonable people to get their hopes up. The other is just a CG trailer.
 
FairXchange said:
For a range of reasons, a) because I'm under the impression most people making noise about this aren't actually playing the game, b) gameplay is well-established feature of the Souls franchise, as the series was never a graphical standout for most.

So essentially what shipped falls perfectly in line with what the Souls franchise represents, and yes, those areas in previews look different in the final version. The problem is it probably looks different due to hardware constraints, so it's more reasonable to be upset they made this for last gen consoles rather than targeting next gen.
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There are many people in this thread who are playing the game.
 
XANDER CAGE said:
There are many people in this thread who are playing the game.
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Fair enough, people are entitled to their opinions and/or rage regarding this particular matter.

I've stated my case. I think the game's quality speaks for itself. Also, I'm looking forward to how the PC version will run, and perhaps benefit from mods for those upset with graphical compromises of the console version.
 
Darth Zandatsu said:
DeS is the weakest game of the franchise in almost everything.
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I think DS2 is by far the weakest entry. Its got worse performance than the previous two games, pretty weak level design so far, the animation is worse, the camera is worse, its got even more glitches than DeS and DS, and the hit detection is whack. Why is it when I'm locked on to a target and I move in to hit him my guy starts swinging his sword to the targets hips? I'm whiffing all the time because the game now swings the weapon toward the direction the camera is facing and as you move in the camera starts pointing downwards. Its fucking annoying. I feel this game is a huge disappointment. I'm going to beat it once and then head back to DS.
 
Metroid-Squadron said:
1. The hardware can handle it just fine. It's FROM programmers who can't write a piece of optimized code even if their lives depended on it.
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Not sure about this.
The game has to run smooth in every situation since the 3-player multi (host, invader and "helper") is now a thing.
From just can't forget all the PvP fans from DaS.

Also I think that some places looks really good meanwhile other could be WAY better (maybe not as good as reveal, but not as bad as retail)
 
vilmer_ said:
Almost.
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I would say DeS strongest point was its PvP and the art design of Nexus and Latria

malboroking said:
Why is it when I'm locked on to a target and I move in to hit him my guy starts swinging his sword to the targets hips?
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I assume you are using a larege weapon like a greatsword or something similar, with these weapons you actually have to aim your strike where the enemy is, not where the camera is pointed. If you use spells and basic weapon like a longsword it still is the same system of the previous games.

malboroking said:
the animation is worse
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Agreed to an extent, the walking/running animation feels weird but in terms of combat i think it so much better, look at this:
PleasantUnkemptAsianwaterbuffalo.gif
 
encephalon said:
I was thinking of jumping into Dark Souls 2 from Demon's Souls, but now ... Good time to jump into Dark Souls 1?
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If the game not looking like a more graphically impressive version you never had a chance to play or misleading advertising bother you a lot then don't play it. If you want to play a great game then play it.
 
XANDER CAGE said:
None of what people are upset about here nullifies any of the things that are good about the game. Since when has "but Y part isn't a problem" been a helpful response to pointing out problems with X part?
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It is important that most fans understand that getting emotionally attached to a product will only hurt their point of view in the long run. It's still surprising how most apologists jump out to defend FROM knowing they released Dark Souls 2 in the highly unpolished and buggy state it currently is.

Just like you said, enjoying the good aspects of the game does not exclude anyone from sharing their constructive and rightful criticism.

From created this problem on their own. They promised A; slowly kept degrading it until it reached D quality and, despite all of the bugs and problems they saw, launched it asking for full retail prices when it feels (at best) like a beta.
 
TheCongressman1 said:
No? We were shown the game running live on what they said was PS3 several times. How is it possible that the game was running that well, and then several months before release they had to cut that significant effects and visuals out? How does this sound right? The beta had the visuals intact, there's plenty of video capture of it.

Of course they aren't going to announce that they had to cut stuff, but you don't keep showing gameplay footage of the better version after you had to gut it. That's the problem we are having. No one had any idea of the product being so much different than what has been shown throughout this past year, right up until release.

It might make a tad more sense if they had cut all of this, and the game ran like a dream, but it's running sub 30 fps most of the time on PS3, along with screen tearing issues on xbox.

This just doesn't add up, and any way you put it, someone was leading us on with false advertisement.
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Well said.

To anyone still thinking that we're overreacting and just not playing the game, read this! No one's denying the game is great. Yes, people are having fun; great fun, even. Everybody's saying the game still could have been that slight bit greater and that nobody had any idea up until release (this bears repeating) that it would be different, because it was advertised with non-retail-like footage right until the game hit the stores. That is flat-out misleading, no matter how you try to justify it. It was most likely done for performance reasons, but the game's framerate still regularly nosedives, as well as having really crass tearing issues on the Xbox 360. This just leads me to question their development competence. They supposedly built a new engine to counter these problems. They also said they'd prepared for the next generation of hardware as well, which I can only translate as meaning to build an extremely well scalable engine (think Source). Yet somehow, despite these goals, somewhere close to the finishing line, they just suddenly realised their performance was not up to snuff? What kind of planning is that? By the way, the supposedly new engine (I reckon it's just an upgrade of the old one with a lot of systems left intact or at least copied over) still has a lot of the same quirks the old one did--case in point: the low-framerate animations for mobs in distant LODs. At the very least, this smells of overzealous and unrealistic planning, probably after they saw how much money Bamco was throwing their way.

And for the last time, this thread is not just about the lighting engine. We are talking about major gameplay mechanics whose ghosts still echo very clearly in the level design as things that could have been, which indicates it must have been a decision made very late into the development cycle. We are talking about major redesigns of areas with not only merely artistic differences (which by themselves even can be enormous; many areas are, e.g., now filled with a bright grey fog-like appearance), but with fundamentally simpler geometries. We are talking about much, much simpler texture work, a lot less environmental detail, far fewer instances of ambient occlusion, specular shader and normal map usage. We are talking about shadowing effects that now simply seem to vanish as soon as hand-held torches light ambient sconces.

The game is very, very good. There is no denying that and no one of the so-called 'crazies' here really thinks that. The game is actively being enjoyed by nearly all its players. But that is not the point. The point is not even that the game can indeed be gorgeous. It is, in fact, quite schizophrenic in its look. The point is that all of the above adds up to a change in atmosphere that differs very drastically from the original vision that was, again, presented and advertised to us right up until release. So does the false advertising charge just not hold up because the game is not actually bad like Aliens: Colonial Marines was? No, of course not, and it is intellectually dishonest to think that.

All we want are straight answers by now. It feels wrong to be deceived like this, but I doubt anyone takes it as seriously as if this were a bad game, so I wouldn't bet on any real boycott or, heck, class-actions forming. So, for now, we're content with answers and maybe, just maybe, a PC/next-gen port with at least some of the content re-introduced.
 
encephalon said:
I was thinking of jumping into Dark Souls 2 from Demon's Souls, but now ... Good time to jump into Dark Souls 1?
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I'd wait for the impending social media campaign to get some results before you invest your time. /s

Yes, DS1 is an amazingly satisfying experience. Jump in. If you're on a PC even better.
 
encephalon said:
I was thinking of jumping into Dark Souls 2 from Demon's Souls, but now ... Good time to jump into Dark Souls 1?
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Dark Souls 2 is a fantastic fucking game, and although it got downgraded, it still looks A LOT better then Dark Souls 1 does. If you're looking to hop into the series, Dark Souls 2 is not a bad choice.

Dark Souls 1 and Demons Souls should be played by everyone though, so it's up to you when you where you want to start.

Also, the only answer you guys are going to get from Bamco and From are "we had to downgrade the graphics to achieve better performance, and the bugs will be fixed" I don't like it when companies do this shit, but this shouldn't stop you guys from being hype about this game. The gameplay is stellar, and it is a Souls game through and through.


Also, I'd like to see if the PS3 version is the source of most of these lighting bugs and stuff, ive only had a few (none that were ever as bad as the party boat) on 360, and I know the frame rate is worse on PS3 then 360.
 
Darth Zandatsu said:
I would say DeS strongest point was its PvP and the art design of Nexus and Latria



I assume you are using a larege weapon like a greatsword or something similar, with these weapons you actually have to aim your strike where the enemy is, not where the camera is pointed. If you use spells and basic weapon like a longsword it still is the same system of the previous games.


Agreed to an extent, the walking/running animation feels weird but in terms of combat i think it so much better, look at this:
PleasantUnkemptAsianwaterbuffalo.gif
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I'm actually using a dagger and a short sword. I never had problems with whiffing in DS, but I did usually use greatswords and the uchigatana in that game. I'll try it out with a longer weapon. I'll give you the attack animations being better, but the movement animations like running around, jumping, climber ladders, walking up stairs are a downgrade. It's really just a sideways step when I was really hoping for a step up =(
 
CountAntonius said:
If the game not looking like a more graphically impressive version you never had a chance to play or misleading advertising bother you a lot then don't play it. If you want to play a great game then play it.
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I'm really not that concerned with graphics in terms of tech, but the screens that have been posted make the game look visually dull. Regardless of what downgrade From was forced to make, the most important thing is that it seems that the art direction was severely compromised, and what they ended up with looks flat. But maybe I'll peek at a few playthroughs to see if if the rest of the game doesn't look quite so bad.
 
FairXchange said:
The game they shipped is actually excellent though. That's what bothers me, you're protesting against a game that is fundamentally great in all the categories that are supposed to matter.
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You don't decide what matters for everybody. Obviously many care about that category and are disappointed.
 
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