#DarkSoulsDowngrade and #YOULIED \\ a.k.a You got some splainin' to do, Namco
- Thread starter Havel
- Start date
This one?
The real Dark Souls, really nice.
except that they are still using screenshots from that build to advertise the shipping product
Krusenstern
Banned
This one?
Orgasmic. Whatever happens to the second game, no one can take us away the beautiful first game.
As I've said: I've stripped graphical features out *two weeks* before submission on titles. It's a useful emergency measure if you absolutely need more RAM or GPU cycles unexpectedly.
Not that that's what I think happened here, just indicating that sometimes, last-minute kludges are necessary (and this'd be a monster of one!)
zephervack
Member
Small changes like that are normal during game development, whats not normal is removing all the lightning of the game 2 months before release.
This one?
Finish him
This would be best case scenario for us as the graphical features are still there and completed.
If they removed them as a result of emergency optimization, then they are likely to show up in the PC version. Which would also corroborate why they need an extra month and a half.
We :3 you Durante.
On the other hand, there are areas which clearly weren't completely redone, but are still designed for darkness and now uniformly illuminated by a strong (last minute?) ambient light term. You can tell that they were designed not to be as generally visible as they are in the final version both by the way they are textured and by how enemies spawn.
This one?
Praise Durante
legacyzero
Banned
This one?
DAMMIT. The first game shouldn't look better than it's sequel >:/
Teletraan1
Banned
After we're all done complaining about the lighting, let's go enjoy a good Whopper from Burger King. The burgers always look exactly like the advertisement. After we're done complaining about Dark Souls II and eating good nourishing food, we can can go back to enjoying Dark Souls II.
That is a double Whopper. If people got 2x the lighting they wouldn't be complaining.
#DONTPREORDER
I wouldn't worry. Those are some of the very best DS1 screenshots I've seen over the years, I'm sure 2 years from now we'll have PC DS2 screenshots which look just as good.
It is shady that this video from end of February shows what looks like the final game most of the time, but at the start mixes in some stuff from earlier previews with the sections of the turtle knight cave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB4Ke5F78QQ Like the first shots show the old lighting, but later on when they're talking about the torch around 4:20 (and notably saying "you won't have to hold a torch all time") it shows footage of what is clearly the final lighting system.
Very possible that IGN was cutting that all together, of course.
Very possible that IGN was cutting that all together, of course.
The PC release is going to be interesting... though I'm assuming they'll botch it just as badly as they did the original Dark Souls and Durante will dig in and find all those missing textures and lighting effects. At least, that's how it plays out in my mind.
I'm all for demanding clarity for what happened to this game, the downgrade is appalling BUT some of the statements I've seen range from overblown to straight up false. I've played the ps3 version for almost 30 hours now and the framerate with the game installed is vastly superior to demons and dark souls, so I really don't get the "20-24 fps", I'd say 90% of the time is steady 30 or more (in closed locations). The other things that bugs me is the apparent fact mentioned by many that the torch is useless now, which is a lie. Some locations require the torch for navigation, in others it may not be essential but I'd say its recommended, there are enemies that are "weaker" when using it Hell, I've found even a boss fight which used the torch as a gameplay mechanic (I won't say more, don't want to spoil too much), and I've seen like.. 1/3 of the game? Honestly many many builds would end up useless if the torch was required constantly, I think From balanced this aspect pretty decently. It gives a particular flair to the navigation in some areas, some others are more difficult because of it but the combat system is not ruined by it and every build is still viable for most of the playthrough.
That's pretty lame.
I dunno, I just feel like the message we're sending is "Hey, stop making these fucking great games and focus on graphics, game industry!"
What they did isn't right, but we need to pick our battles better. I just feel like this and Watchdogs are fine examples of learning to not judge a game on its graphics: In the end it's the gameplay that's king. Watch_Dogs is losing hype because now that the initially "wow-ing" graphics are gone, some people are realizing that they don't find the game that interesting. But Dark Souls II actually seems to have a bigger downgrade, and there's less hub-bub about it because, surprise: people actually really love the gameplay and feel they've got their money's worth.
Companies pull this shit because they know that flashy graphics drive purchases and social media buzz. Don't get me wrong, I love a beautiful game, and I'd be lying if I said that 50% of my hype for Witcher 3 isn't coming from how amazing it looks. I'm guilty of over scrutinizing graphics too. But the more we do it, the more we actually hurt our own market, causing the wrong things to get prioritized.
I get it, this isn't about the graphics. It's about misleading information being put out by Namco/Ubisoft. And that much should be called out. But some of the venom here just doesn't fit the crime. We risk not being taken seriously when we're up against issues that have a significant impact on our hobby.
Yep. Apart from the areas that suffer from the lighting downgrades, there are still absolutely gorgeous areas in this game that I can tell will be featured in many screenshot threads to come. And after all, DS1 had its fair share of uglyness as well. I haven't seen many screenshots of the garden between the archives and the crystal cave, for example.
Even then, what's ludicrous is you have threads on GAF all the time where people complain about slight differences in framerate or resolution between platforms, yet here you get a crowd of people who say that the changes here don't matter. It's ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure even DS2 as it is now will look as good as DS1 at a high resolution + some AO.
Yeah I too noticed the lighting change and was immediately disappointed. I had to use a torch constantly in the beta to find my path, but in the retail release I've ignored the mechanic entirely for the most part. Definitely double dipping on PC if it is there, because there have been specific encounters in the game that I noticed would have had more tension and surprises had it been better lighting.
I think what people are missing (including me) is that the game is being compared it a version of itself. The slight differences in framerate and resolution you're speaking of are usually just fodder for console warriors and wouldn't be taken seriously in a vacuum. This, however, is a comparison to a version of the game which at this point is entirely ephemeral. You cannot, at this point, buy a different console to play this magically upgraded version of the game. So essentially the changes don't matter because they never existed in a consumer playable state (beta notwithstanding).
ThatGayWolf
Member
After we're all done complaining about the lighting, let's go enjoy a good Whopper from Burger King. The burgers always look exactly like the advertisement. After we're done complaining about Dark Souls II and eating good nourishing food, we can can go back to enjoying Dark Souls II.
Lol are you kidding me with that comparison? People don't go order a whopper because it looks like that, they order a whopper because they wanted a burger, they like burger king, and they like the taste. Does the lighting or the way the burger is composed in the shot affect how it tastes? No. (by the way, having done shots like this, I can tell you that burger would actually taste worse)
Does the lighting in Dark Souls II affect gameplay (the taste, as it were)? Yes, it does. The lighting used to be an integral part of the torch mechanic, a highly touted gameplay element. Now torches are pointless at best, and more often plain confusing. Example:
In the boss fight where the boss snatches the lights, you can clearly see him. The game won't let you target him though, because you're not supposed to be able to see him after he grabs the lights. The whole encounter goes from being a neat idea to being frustrating and confusing, all because of a change in the lighting.
bullshit, the message is "don't lie about what i'm about to buy"
the fact that they're doing it with a great game is immaterial, if enough people get away with this shit it's open season
I'm not aware of a culture of transparency out of Japanese developers before this, in fact aren't they considered notoriously opaque in this specific regard?
I may be wrong here... but if they just completely ignore this entire thing that would be pretty normal right?
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
Releasing promotional material that accurately reflects the end product is "an unprecedented expectation of transparency"?
Yes, differences from the preview builds are in two fronts:
1) Technology: no lightmaps, low resolution shadows, worse texturing, simpler shaders and lower geometrical detail.
2) Gameplay balancing: Brighter lighting in areas that were previously pitch-black.
Then you don't understand this thread. It's about companies LYING about what the end product is. If they had simply shown the actual game instead of a highly polished vertical slice that didn't accurately portray the game then we wouldn't be in this mess right now.
No, letting enthusiast consumers in on every change made pre-release is, in my opinion.
Actually, if that really *was* the case - and I do need to highlight that this is guesswork - it's not inconcievable that they could be patched back into console versions, either. It depends on just why they tore it out, of course; if it's a problem they simply didn't have time to solve, or if it's a long-term resources issue where saving more is not realistic.
My hunch is that this was a panicky kludge to pass submission for some reason - FROM being very nervous about missing their ship date? How are they doing financially lately?
People have spoken about the network test having the lighting in it. Was the test solid, or was it prone to arbitrary crashes? I'm considering the possibility that we could be looking at something like (for example) there was a memory leak tied to the lighting such that while it was perfectly functional when played in short stints, would tend to cause problems when played for protracted lengths of time.
You have a problem, you can't diagnose the exact cause, but you find that removing the lighting fixed it. You ship in a week. What do you do?
dancingphlower
Member
Maybe I'm just weird, but the game looks good to me....
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
If they are MAJOR changes, it's not.
Krusenstern
Banned
You're pretty damn weird then or you don't understand what's the problem here.
I think this filthy false advertising/last min downgrade is in From hands, sure Namco is the publisher is responsible for the product but it's like Aliens: Colonial Marines where it was all Gearbox call and fault.
From showed the and kept showing it to the journalists and public for months (till very last of last year) and from the videos it's clear that the huge changes in models,textures and levels will need time so From know they are changing the game completely yet kept showing the original version and hyping the games as if it was going to be like that.
Namco is the publisher and they are also to blame but it's mostly From because they are the IP owners and developers, all changes and decisions is in From hands and they were fooling people. Sites and people need to demand answers from From as well.
From showed the and kept showing it to the journalists and public for months (till very last of last year) and from the videos it's clear that the huge changes in models,textures and levels will need time so From know they are changing the game completely yet kept showing the original version and hyping the games as if it was going to be like that.
Namco is the publisher and they are also to blame but it's mostly From because they are the IP owners and developers, all changes and decisions is in From hands and they were fooling people. Sites and people need to demand answers from From as well.
Well that's where we're at a crossroad, I don't consider what was changed to be major.
Then again, I didn't play the Beta or pay any attention to the pre-release content, so I'm more than likely just blissfully ignorant like the majority of people who're interesting in Dark Souls 2.
zephervack
Member
We wont hear anything, they are hoping people wont learn about this, the 2 weeks after release are key for them, the less they acknowledge it the better.
You see no problems here, be honest
Reveal
1. Amazing Lightning
2. Atmospheric shadows/Lightning reflected on the ground/walls/characters etc
3. Torches on walls and other details throughout
Retail
1. All stuff on the reveal completely gone or reduced (worse blur, smoke effects)
2. Weird green/grey hue everywhere
Im missing tons of stuff in the comparisons too, they are completely different
I guess at some point if these removed features will be in the PC version they could say so.
But you are right silence and overall playing ignorant is their method of operation and we should expect no different.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
Exactly, you're spouting nonsense without even knowing what this thread is about.
Oh God please let that be true. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.
It would be heavenly. That being said, I could never run DS1 at a steady 60FPS when at 1080 with DSfix. Here's hoping that I'd still manage 30FPS at 1080 and with gorgeos lighting with DS2... (if it even exists anymore, why are you making me so hopeful?)
Stone Ocean
Member
If the PC version has the features that were removed I'll gladly eat Snuggly the crow. But otherwise I'm not getting my hopes up.
Calm down now, that's why I've been asking questions and watching videos and catching myself up on the 'issues'. From what I've seen in this thread, from what has been presented, the changes don't seem to be "major" to me. They certainly don't warrant this kind of vehement response, but I'm not going to begrudge anyone who participates in said response.
I think I've done some due diligence and informed myself of the specifics.
We get your point
Could you please stop copy/pasting this post everywhere now please?
It's just wishful thinking from Grief, I really doubt it. It's like a complete other version with different textures and huge changes in levels unless they were keeping another source code for that version I really don't see it.
There is no reason why the PC version could not have these features from a hardware perspective.
I think the goalpost is moving from outrage to self interest at this point.
Phatosaurus
Member
I just unlocked the dynamic lighting guys.
Nose Master
Member
This "movement" is embarrassing.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
It can probably end up looking like the TGS demo, but there's pretty much no way that it'll look like the original reveal where most of the more dramatic comparisons are coming from.
I'm sure some people think it looks fine without context. Which is acceptable. But on the basis of principle they were falsely advertising the final product and should be held accountable. Especially in the gaming industry too many journalists are unwilling to hold anyone to task and gamers (especially with a cult IP) are willing to roll over a little too quickly.
And the people willing to overlook the issue because of a future PC release, congratulations, that's what they were hoping you'd do. It doesn't make it OK that they misled the console gamers just because you're not one of them.
I've redboxed this for a day to see for myself and yeah. Without context it seems similar to DS1. Though I sometimes thing the animations are worse. But after seeing the preview footage it's hard to enjoy it. The retail version has much less personality and it's not the contrast, it's an amalgamation of a dozen little things that comprise the experience. And before I give them any more money I'd like to know what happened to these features and why they didn't tell us about the discrepancy beforehand. We let game companies do this to us all the time so it's not just about this game or FromSoftware, it's also about demanding a bit of honesty from the companies we support with our money and time.