#DarkSoulsDowngrade and #YOULIED \\ a.k.a You got some splainin' to do, Namco
- Thread starter Havel
- Start date
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Those numbers not only are completly off, they also irrelevant.
I'm telling you that games like Thief or Battlefield 4 sold more on CURRENT GEN (PS4/Xbox One) or AC IV sold more on PS4 than PS3... People want to play on their new shiny machines, specially if it adds significant visual upgrades. How do you explain that with the userbase logic?
Also the engine is next-gen ready, that means it works out of the bat on PS4 and Xbone, it would be relatively easy to make the next-gen version. Also the PC version already have better textures so part of the job is already on.
And remember than the Tomb Raider definitive edition entered on the Top 10 in the NPD, and it's A PORT for those console with very little userbase.
The histogram shows over 490000 individual color values in the 0-15 range. Even a single value would prove that the game doesn't output limited range RGB. I don't know what else to tell you.
I wouldn't even bother, just the beginning of that argument is so steeped in nonsensical numbers.
I just want to see if I get this right. If the game wasn't displaying in proper colour range, the UI element wouldn't have the same value, correct? This is why it even being there proves that the game is displaying its colours properly, right?
You're misconstruing stuff. Please look at these two pictures:
This is how the game looks:
So, do you see all the wood and the gate and the thing in the distance in the dark on the bottom picture? Now look what happens when I turn my TV on limited and purposefully crush the blacks and whites:
Do you see all the details that are gone? How you can't see anything 5 feet away from you? That's because you're now crushing the blacks. You aren't playing the game the way it was meant to be played. I have never said you shouldn't do it, I am just saying you are spreading misinformation when you say that it is still refutable that the game isn't outputting at full range. 20% of the picture was below 15 in the top picture. You'd lose 20% of the picture by smothering it into one color.
There's nothing to have 'serious doubts' about. There's nothing wrong with the color output of the game.
Check the bottom picture, where I cut off everything under 15. That shows you how much of the picture you lose. There's nothing subtle about the information you're killing off, so there's no arguing that the game isn't full range.
Am I the only one who has noticed that the grass and the trees don't move in the retail as it did in the videos and beta?
I'm totally sure that it was downgraded for performance (and still it sucks), and because of this I'm starting to think that all the promotional stuff has been from PC and they really worked with it as main plataform as they said months ago. And maybe is just around the months of the network beta that they started the port to consoles, realizing that the consoles couldn't handle good enough the new engine (mainly created to support the features needed for PC and next gen).
That would explain the hand holding on the PC release, because there were already lot of people talking about waiting for a next gen port in the future. If you add more fuel saying that this footage is from PC, and that the console version looks like it does, Namco/From probably would have lost many sells because people would be mad because of the such late reveal of the downgrade. And this would end up in more people waiting for a possible next gen port.
One month ago those words for the a port seemed just like some peoples false hopes (as many other last gen late released games), now it looks like a real possibility.
The most certain thing is that, if by next month, the PC edition has the same downgrade as the consoles (meaning: low-poly scenaries, nerfed lightning and textures) I will be really mad at From because of wasting such an amazing art that was totally possible to keep on PC and instead throw it to the trash to keep parity with the other versions.
I'm totally sure that it was downgraded for performance (and still it sucks), and because of this I'm starting to think that all the promotional stuff has been from PC and they really worked with it as main plataform as they said months ago. And maybe is just around the months of the network beta that they started the port to consoles, realizing that the consoles couldn't handle good enough the new engine (mainly created to support the features needed for PC and next gen).
That would explain the hand holding on the PC release, because there were already lot of people talking about waiting for a next gen port in the future. If you add more fuel saying that this footage is from PC, and that the console version looks like it does, Namco/From probably would have lost many sells because people would be mad because of the such late reveal of the downgrade. And this would end up in more people waiting for a possible next gen port.
One month ago those words for the a port seemed just like some peoples false hopes (as many other last gen late released games), now it looks like a real possibility.
The most certain thing is that, if by next month, the PC edition has the same downgrade as the consoles (meaning: low-poly scenaries, nerfed lightning and textures) I will be really mad at From because of wasting such an amazing art that was totally possible to keep on PC and instead throw it to the trash to keep parity with the other versions.
justjustin
Member
Having finished the game recently, I was honestly blown away by that area. I'd swear it uses more advanced lighting methods compared to the rest of the game (bar a few other oddly excellent looking sections). The light looked like it was being cast and reflected on surfaces differently-- more realistically-- than most other areas. Even enemies from earlier parts of the game looked better in that area. Very strange, almost felt like it was lifted from a different game.
Oh don't get me wrong, I know enough to know that crushed blacks aren't something you'd want. I was just asking to see if I understood the logic behind this whole mess
From was being truthful when they said the engine was being designed entirely around next-gen and PC.
Astral/H3X
Member
Again:
(You are looking at a histogram which demonstrates that there are 491325 values in this direct capture which could not have existed if the game truly used the wrong color space. It's simply not true in any way, shape or form)
I was more referring to the fact that a lot of people find the game looks great when using the wrong color space. I was thinking that maybe when From Software was designing the areas of the game, their own monitors/TVs/whatever was using the wrong color space, so the areas are, essentially, designed around the wrong standard.
I'm probably explaining this terribly...
Like, designer A has his monitor set to limited, despite the game being coded in Full. Thus, everything looks darker than it should, on his screen. He designs the game as it looks good, to him, on his monitor which is incorrectly configured. So even though the game has full color space, the "way it was supposed to look" was done with the monitor on limited.
Like I said, it's totally crazy, and nearly impossible to be the actual cause. Just a funny idea.
Wait what? That doesn't sound right at all.
I told you the 0,0,0 value was from there, which is what you asked me, and it was true. There are plenty of values below 15 for each colour in other places.
Not trying to bash this idea, but luckily, this would never happen.
200-220m combined sound about right, don't have any recent figures but they where 80m last year in march. Probably a bit too much but w/e.
Numbers are not off by that much, 100-115m unit of ps3 and 360 world wide. Dark souls 2 sold more the first few weeks then dark souls 1 but still under 2 million.
The reasons why there is so many ass creed sold on ps4 is because of this: http://media.officialplaystationmagazine.co.uk/files/2013/11/Assassins-Creed-ps4-bundle.jpg
and because there isn't much to play on ps4.
Dark souls 2 isn't big enough to get a bundle and by the time of release (a year minimum) there will be much more games out there to play so it won't inflate the sales. All this talk of "Next gen" ready engine is just PR marketing, I don't know what to tell you more then this. Dark souls 2 is based on a modified engine of dark souls, companies don't go around and make an entirely new engine for a single game.
And the reasons why tomb raider got a port to begin with was because in the making they heard the possibility to do a port, dark souls devs don't even had put a thought into it.
I really don't see it happening. From is a small team and their workforce is something like 20 times lower then ubisoft.
Dr. Black Jack
Member
I'm
optimistic that some of these issues will get smoothed out with a title update or two, especially the control/hitbox/terrible repeating PS1 texture ones.
What I don't understand is why they didn't include an optional HD texture install like every major console game released in the past 1-2 years.
hopelessly?
What I don't understand is why they didn't include an optional HD texture install like every major console game released in the past 1-2 years.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
So you don't believe their statement about their engine, but you believe them when they said that a "next-gen" version is not on the works/planned?
:/
Anyway, this is useless, one last thing: they aren't making a new engine for DS2 only, they are making a new engine for DS2 and any other From game from now on.
FutureZombie
Banned
So all the "No 60 FPS, no buy" people didn't buy this game, right?
I think this game does reach 60FPS at certain points.
CadetMahoney
Member
They can bring back the lighting but that's only expected, this is the real downside. . . same geometry as last gen consoles? Really!?!
Also if they bring back the lighting on PC it will be a damning statement on ppl who paid $60 for a poor product on console. Enemies that pop in, gameplay elements pointless because of the lightness makes it. . . pointless etc.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
And there are people here suggesting that a mere single shadow casting light is just too much for PS3/XB360.
You're misconstruing stuff. Please look at these two pictures:
This is how the game looks:
So, do you see all the wood and the gate and the thing in the distance in the dark on the bottom picture? Now look what happens when I turn my TV on limited and purposefully crush the blacks and whites:
Do you see all the details that are gone? How you can't see anything 5 feet away from you? That's because you're now crushing the blacks. You aren't playing the game the way it was meant to be played. I have never said you shouldn't do it, I am just saying you are spreading misinformation when you say that it is still refutable that the game isn't outputting at full range. 20% of the picture was below 15 in the top picture. You'd lose 20% of the picture by smothering it into one color.
There's nothing to have 'serious doubts' about. There's nothing wrong with the color output of the game.
Check the bottom picture, where I cut off everything under 15. That shows you how much of the picture you lose. There's nothing subtle about the information you're killing off, so there's no arguing that the game isn't full range.
I believe the game is indeed outputting a full colour range, and that there is no bug or problem in that regard. However, during the network test the ambient world lighting of the Huntsman's Copse was significantly darker, and there was only a very tiny light radius around the player. In the cave sections, it was impossible to see without the torch. This is very, very different from the retail product in which the overall ambience has been pushed quite a bit higher. There were many complaints from testers that the game was too dark, so I can only surmise that they bumped the ambient gamma up. There are areas in the game where the ambient fall-off of distant geometry should be nicely fading to pure black, but are not. Instead it looks rather garish and abrupt, like someone bumped up the gamma a notch as a quick fix solution which leaves the game looking strangely washed out.
Haha, right? Look at that 2001 game. It is 2014. 13 years have passed since then...
And Dark Souls II...is what we have...720p, dips under 30FPS cosntantly, no dynamic shadows, HDR, SSAO, Dynamic lighting, ect...stuff games had in 2001.
hitsugi
Member
Maybe in some of the menu screens.
Doubt it, the highest I saw was around 42 fps on both platforms.
TheCongressman1
Member
As much as I am sad they aren't coming close to the level of effects in most games today, this is incorrect. It definitely has dynamic lighting and shadows, it just isn't anything like they had shown it would be.
Rodney McKay
Member
Honestly, the "crushed blacks" looks more like how it should look than the overly bright original image.
You can't see what's in front of you because IT'S DARK. The whole point of the tomb of giants area in the first Dark Souls was that is was impossible to see anything outside of your little light circle because it was SUPER DARK there and you're meant to use the lantern or follow the tiny lights you see on the ground.
It made it scary especially with the skeleton dudes and their blinking eyes. If you could just see them standing there by jacking up the brightness it wouldn't nearly as effective.
Garcia
Member
It's good to know that plenty of people are experiencing the same problems. We could update the list of bugs adding those two that Cetra mentioned.
PS3 (disc version) bugs and problems to be found during gameplay:
PS3 (disc version) bugs and problems to be found during gameplay:
- Objects and enemies materializing out of thin air.
- Flickering shadows and light sources.
- Out of sync sound effects.
- Mob animations either freezing entirely or moving at lower FPS (like 5 FPS low).
- Input lag both in the menus' and HUD screens.
- Input lag during gameplay (character not reacting at all).
- Player being "smelted into the wall" during a Boss fight.
- Painful loading times (18 seconds on average for me: quickest was 14s. longest took 42s.)
- Very inconsistent framerate (going from the higher 10s up to 60fps when nothing is happening on screen)
- Holes in geometry.
- Enemies not reacting to the proximity of the player.
TheCongressman1
Member
Ok, that sounds very bad. I had a feeling warping would take away from the meticulous unified world design, and this seems to be a symptom of it. I'd love to hear that it hasn't effected the design, but everything I'm hearing so far points to otherwise.
Edit: Not saying warping can't be implemented well, but I can see how they could easily forget in some areas that players will be backtracking because warping is at the back of their mind. Then, attention to details goes out the window.
I wonder if the washed out, or more greys rather than blacks in places is a quick "fix" by the devs after they realised their next-gen lighting technique was too costly on the PS3 and killing too many resources in certain areas/with certain enemy encounters.
If you gut the light source, everything is too dark, so perhaps they clipped certain textures colours, not the HDMI range.
I think the game looks stunning, I still havent came accross many bad areas, a good part of the lighting still exists and some sections are georgeous... Some areas look plain though, as if that area should be darker too hide the generic textures. Really enjoying myself on PS3, would definately double-dip on a Next-gen with reveal graphics though.
If you gut the light source, everything is too dark, so perhaps they clipped certain textures colours, not the HDMI range.
I think the game looks stunning, I still havent came accross many bad areas, a good part of the lighting still exists and some sections are georgeous... Some areas look plain though, as if that area should be darker too hide the generic textures. Really enjoying myself on PS3, would definately double-dip on a Next-gen with reveal graphics though.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
WTF does this have to do with lighting downgrades?
What? They're still there. I haven't seen pre-retail footage of lava, but it looks great in
the Iron Keep
Bollocks. Have you played the game? I had to use the torch plenty of times.
That kind of hyperbole is really not helping your cause, you know. Yes there was a downgrade, yes it's disappointing, but that's no reason to spout nonsense.
Yeah, I think that's likely what happened. They got too ambitious with PC as their lead platform.
Ditto!
Try it out in any self contained area with few enemies. The framerate is variable.
OminoMichelin
Member
Anyone knows if eurogamer is going to have a face-off of DSII?
And I don't argue that the game doesn't look better from turning the range to limited, and I am contemplating doing it myself. I am merely refuting See You Next Wednesday's "proof" that the game had a glitch that outputted at limited range. I did an exponential filter thing on the previous page, where I showed how the game could still look dark, but also preserve some of the detail. Crushing blacks will just remove parts of the image, and isn't an optimal solution.
I am all for those that wish to use it, I am just not for the misinformation that the game is outputting at limited range.
jacksepticeye
Member
Sometime during the week apparently. From will talk to Namdai
DrROBschiz
Member
Omg this topic is still going?
Just played more ps3 last night. Knew it wad going to be thr inferior version from the minute it was announced. Used common sense.
Didn't feel duped or misled in the slightest and I think the game still looks great for being on ps3.
You guys will have plenty to bitch about if the PC version doesn't hold up but damn.
Its not some crazy conspiracy that a company would market and promote the prettiest version of the game and downplay the weakest.
Just played more ps3 last night. Knew it wad going to be thr inferior version from the minute it was announced. Used common sense.
Didn't feel duped or misled in the slightest and I think the game still looks great for being on ps3.
You guys will have plenty to bitch about if the PC version doesn't hold up but damn.
Its not some crazy conspiracy that a company would market and promote the prettiest version of the game and downplay the weakest.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
The version of the game they keep promoting at this point most likely doesn't exist as a shippable product. Changed geometry and more indicate this.
Now imagine what happens if the PC version comes out and the good lighting still isn't in and it still doesn't resemble the promotional footage enough. What then? Will you eat a great big word cake and apologise?
The PS3 version during the Network test was perfectly fine and not downgraded
rogerroger22
Member
Some of the areas I've just played through look AMAZING and are /close/ (although not spot on) to some of the release footage. The lighting, atmosphere, geometry, etc are stellar. Seriously had one of those 'stop and take in the view because it looks so damn good' moments.
There is some serious ugly early game, I'll agree to that - but some other areas are damn fine looking.
There is some serious ugly early game, I'll agree to that - but some other areas are damn fine looking.
Yay, circles. Gotta love'em.
Annoying how we go in circles because of people like this who have no clue what is going on.
Because according to some other posts I this thread, it's possible well get some sort of statement maybe this week.
gamerforever
Banned
Decided to sell my game without playing it as I still have to complete the original and reckon the current gen port will be significantly more enjoyable.
Must admit I do find a lot of posts in here hilarious, especially ones recommending turning the brightness down!
Must admit I do find a lot of posts in here hilarious, especially ones recommending turning the brightness down!
Playing around with your HDMI and in-game settings is, unfortunately, a valid way of making the game look much, much better. I hope to see a patch someday, but if not then this is a great workaround.
zephervack
Member
All this talk of HDMI limited range and changing brightness settings....
Is it possible that FROM just applied some kind of postprocess to the entire image in certain sections to make them brighter?
If anyone remember in Dark Souls 1, they used this most notably when entering Blighttown, the whole brightness/contrast would change on the fly and walls that could be seen from far away all the sudden couldnt be seen anymore.
Maybe they ran out of time and just applied a super bright one throughout all the Dark Areas.
The pictures of the cabin above, looks like they have the same postprocess as the GIF in this post BEFORE you enter blighttown.
Is it possible that FROM just applied some kind of postprocess to the entire image in certain sections to make them brighter?
If anyone remember in Dark Souls 1, they used this most notably when entering Blighttown, the whole brightness/contrast would change on the fly and walls that could be seen from far away all the sudden couldnt be seen anymore.
Maybe they ran out of time and just applied a super bright one throughout all the Dark Areas.
The pictures of the cabin above, looks like they have the same postprocess as the GIF in this post BEFORE you enter blighttown.
All this talk of HDMI limited range and changing brightness settings....
Is it possible that FROM just applied some kind of postprocess to the entire image in certain sections to make them brighter?
If anyone remember in Dark Souls 1, they used this most notably when entering Blighttown, the whole brightness/contrast would change on the fly and walls that could be seen from far away all the sudden couldnt be seen anymore.
Maybe they ran out of time and just applied a super bright one throughout all the Dark Areas.
The pictures of the cabin above, looks like they have the same postprocess as the GIF in this post BEFORE you enter blighttown.
This still happens in Dark Souls II. I saw it yesterday when moving past the first fat-turtle guy guarding the door leading to that huge sword sticking out of the castle that had an axe thrower in an early trailer.
I tried running with limited range on my TV. It just crushed the image way too much. Then I went into the brightness setting and turned down the brightness until the image on the right was just indistinguishable. Looks pretty much better now.
bronzodiriace
Member
JRW
Member
Ouch 360 version isn't like this especially once you install the game to HDD, averages around 10 second loads.
JRW
Member
Agreed about the gamma bump, When I press play game from dashboard (360 version) the screen goes black like usual, it's a deep black for a few seconds, but soon as the Dark souls 2 loading screen appears the black all of a sudden gets brighter (hint of grey) and stays that way, even the black background on the title screen is elevated.
For now I changed the default Reference level to Intermediate which brought the black level down without crushing details, first game I've ever had to do this with (Kuro plasma).