R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I wasn't trying to argue semantics
I was trying to illustrate why the concept of color blindness is an unrealistic ideal model that really no one in our society truly exhibits.
Ethnic Minorities - "Forgot about them".
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I wasn't trying to argue semantics
I was trying to illustrate why the concept of color blindness is an unrealistic ideal model that really no one in our society truly exhibits.
SenorArdilla
Member
Reminds me of that "Why do anime characters look white?" question.
Captain Europe
Member
No he isn't, Serbians are Indo-European ethnically, so he's the same as all the other characters on that poster.
The gaming industry really needs to step up with race/gender/orientation issues etc, it's all too safe/traditional, or stereotypical. Something needs to kick it up its arse.
LauriPoika
Neo Member
Good point. Not gonna lie to you, I just copied the first percentages I found on Wikipedia. But the point I was trying to make was that it is weird to me to pull 150 best-selling games developed god knows where and then compare those protagonists to the American demographics. Picking only games made in the US would've been more fair in my opinion.
oconnomiyaki
Member
I choose not to think about it because it's too restricting of the discussion. I prefer to break it down into ethnicity, nationality, and culture. Because European, Asian, etc is far too high level to be any kind of useful indicator of an individual or society. Heck, even Asian covers a large number of different ethnicities, nationalities, and cultures. Like India, Thailand, and Japan are all covered by Asian. Such big buckets don't really sit well with me.
Slight tangent: I have a friend who is ethnically Filipino, and her ex, who is ethnically Chinese, said that she (read: Fillipino) wasn't a real Asian!
Anyway, for such a complex issue, such large grouping don't really work. I agree there's an issue with white brunette male protagonists in games, but I'd even add that perhaps a lot of it comes down to the desire to please America first overall, bringing nationality into the fray. But then what part of America? It's not like New York is like Alabama. So there's culture too. And there's a great deal of ethnicities in America. So then why is the game industry so intent on appealing to a certain subset of gamers at the expense of everyone else?
I'd wager that a lot of it comes from focus groups, and I wonder how diverse those focus groups have been picked. For a game that is going to be sold internationally, it's always amazing that, again, a core group seems to get a voice above all others.
ShinMaruku
Member
Black female from Half life 2.
She's also half asian so another rare character.
I know there are people who are saying the industry to step up their variety without understanding or putting some ideas how to address that. People write what they know you need to expand their views as well as ad more people into the developement wing.
Part of the reason is the thrid world is not quite up there to break out into games which would add more variety the other reason is due to multiple factors some groups see no value into the game industry as a valid career path (I mainly speak from Black and Hispanic people where being low income and development being seen as a soft or hard profession to get into without the glamor to make people go into it as some reasons)
Matter of fact I think a topic on what factors make these things happen would be a great topic to get into.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
*I'm lost
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Hey it's getting better! Right Delsin?
He's Native American? I thought his father was Cole.
As for the topic, yeah even character design for white men look plain in general. I don't understand from that meme how Sazh has a stereotypical black hairstyle. Is his hair supposed to be permed?
This all equates to the amount of non-white and non-Asians that develop games. For some strange reason the Japanese seem to make just as much if not more white characters in their games than Asian ones.
I also find it boring how just about every game that gets put out here is either made in the US, Canada, or Japan. We'd definitely get more diversity if other nations were developing games and selling them worldwide. I wonder why we don't see more from other countries. Other countries are buying games, because every once in a while I'd meet someone online who is from Brazil or Australia who plays games, it's not like it's not profitable there or maybe it's not. I really don't know much about what's going on outside my country.
SixMachine
Member
Actually half asian happens a lot in games and shows. Ken from Streetfighter is half Japanese, half American (what type of American I do not know). The Snakes from MGS series have japanese blood in them. Hitomi from DOA is another example. Believe it or not Jill Valentine is also part Japanese. There is a section on it in tvtropes, called something like Foreign but not Too Foreign, where they want to add a foreigner to a Japanese cast but also have them be part Japanese to acclimate in.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
ShinMaruku
Member
She can fit into the not too black trope as well. Ken is only 1/4th American his grandfather is American. But the rest fits. And wait Jill is part Japanese?!
SixMachine
Member
Yea I know, this fact surprised me too.
http://www.capcom-unity.com/residen...391/30070965/jill-is-french-and-part-japanese
test_account
XP-39C²
I know, i was just explaining that what you said regarding colorblindness isnt what i ment. For example when you said that you cant really reflect on racism when you dont acknowledge it. Me respecting someone regardless of their skin color doesnt mean that i cant acknowledge that racism unfortunately happends and when it happends. Your explanation of what colorblindess is isnt exactly what i was talking about, so i just wanted to clear up that misunderstanding, its not a matter of semantics indeed.
On the subject of jokes, racism is primarily hate towards other people because they are of a certain race. If two friends make jokes like this to eachother, there might not be a shred of hate in those jokes and they both know it. I doubt anyone of them feel that they are racist to eachother even if the jokes have elements of things that can easily be understood as racism. The problem with those type of jokes is mainly if they are being said or written where people who dont know the person who say those jokes. In those cases, the people who read or hear those jokes doesnt necessarily know the full intention of those jokes, and they can easily be understood as being racist. So its best to avoid those jokes unless one are certain that the other person knows that the joke-teller means no hate with those jokes, and that the other person can apperciate that type of humor.
EDIT: Late edit, but i just wanted to add that just because there might be some thoughts about what a certain race does (like stereotypical things), it doesnt necessarily mean that there are any hate/racism against people because of that. Otherwise it kinda sounds like you're saying that basically everyone in the world is racist to some degree, and that would include you as well. I mean, sure, people make jokes and such, those things happends indeed, but there doesnt necessairly have to be any hate behind it. The problem is if someone takes the joke the wrong way, but there is a difference between that and being racist i would say. Racism is about hate, so the joke's intention have to be hateful for it to be racsim. Also, if basically everyone is like that as you mention (making jokes etc. that could be concidered as being racism), wouldnt they have understanding that such jokes doesnt necessairly have any bad intentions if someone else makes them? If basically everyone was a racist and had hate towards other races, i dont think that races could co-excist as well as they do in a lot of places on earth. My point was that even if i know about some stereotypical stuff about a certain race, if i see a person of that specific race, i dont think "that person is like that because he/she got that skin color". I know that the person can be the kindest person on earth for all that i know despite which skin color he/she is. That is what i ment with "it doesnt concern me which skin color people have".
ShinMaruku
Member
Now Jean Reno being in Onimusha makes sense. Jean Reno took one of Nobunaga's concubines....
I joke.
Riposte
Member
I think people are a little over critical of Sazh (FFXIII) and Big Bo (Binary Domain) because they are failing to meet demands not placed on other characters in the same game. They are hardly ideal representatives (with traits that are not necessarily linked with their race) for those desperately looking for those, but they are good, likeable characters on equal footing with rest of the cast. They tend to be the favorite characters in their games for a lot people.
EDIT: Who is the OP quoting in the title?
EDIT: Who is the OP quoting in the title?
Muppet of a Man
Member
I'm a white 30 something dude and I just think it is extremely boring to play a protagonist that is always a white male 30 something with brown hair. I've actually been disappointed in the lack of character development as a whole in games recently, the marketing group essentially falling back on a generic, lowest -common- denominator demographic so as to appeal at a low level to a large audience. I wish we had more unique, iconic characters with idiosyncracies that were well suited to the universe and backstory of the game
Captain Europe
Member
I can't even tell which one the Star Wars character is, which only proves the point of the poster even further. Even the aliens are brunette white males.
SamuelSupreme
Banned
Being a BLERD (Black Nerd or Black Leaders Exhibiting Rare Dynamics) I'm not a big fan of how Blacks are portrayed in the video game world for the most part. Yeah he's livable but a huge part of me felt annoyed at how ignorant he sounded. Or even Cole Train he's a walking stereotype god damn.
We need more characters like my Commander Shepard or even Jacob.
We need more characters like my Commander Shepard or even Jacob.
ShinMaruku
Member
And then you have the black rapper stereotype who has it wrong because none of them are stupid and you have the dumbass musical stereotype in some games.. 
Some of these lyrics they come up with takes some serious brain power...
Some of these lyrics they come up with takes some serious brain power...
Stop ruining the authenticity of the story!!!
Best black characters that weren't stereotypical for me would be Jacob from Mass Effect and Isaac Briggs from Splinter Cell Blacklist.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
And then you have the black rapper stereotype who has it wrong because none of them are stupid and you have the dumbass musical stereotype in some games..
Some of these lyrics they come up with takes some serious brain power...
I can't honestly think of any rappers in games outside of San Andreas.
CadetMahoney
Member
What's the answer to that anyway?
they don't
Jacob was dry as fuck tho
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
But they do
TheRedSnifit
Member
Not really, no. To Japanese people they look Japanese. They only look white to westerners, who expect all Asians to have weird hair and squinty eyes.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
Ding ding ding
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Yep, Mugen and Kuwabara don't look Japanese.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
While it's true that Sazh has those things, that picture also doesn't point out that he is a very gentle man who doesn't want to hurt anyone, forgiving and an incredibly loving father. This thread isn't about him, but it was annoying he was used when he would be what every adult male with a child should want to be.
Still I agree with the thread as a whole, it is odd how it seems to have dropped of the face of the planet recently in regards to new stories.
Still I agree with the thread as a whole, it is odd how it seems to have dropped of the face of the planet recently in regards to new stories.
SixMachine
Member
It's like looking at a stick figure. You often impose your own race (or whatever you think) on it. A Final fantasy character looks like a jpop/rockstar like Gackt to a japanese audience and a flamboyant pretty boy to someone else. Some people say Tidus looks white, while other people say he looks Asian (weirdly enough I think he looks more Asian in cutscenes, so does Yuna).
I agree that there needs to be more ethnic representation in games, but I think there has been an improvement in recent years which is a good direction the industry has been heading in (at least out of the pool of games I've played in the last year) as opposed to a medium like say comic books which is overly reliant on the same cast of characters for decades, making it hard for new characters (let alone new ethnic ones) breaking in.
Making video games is a business. It is Marketing 101 to appeal to your customer base. The average gamer is a young Caucasian male, and it is natural that companies try to appeal to that person since most people who buy the games look just like that. This also explains why many female characters used to have oversexualized look. It is all about what appeals to your customers.
Now that does not mean all gamers are young Caucasian males. Companies do realize that, and thus try to appeal to other gamers too via extra characters or other possible means (aka Borderlands etc)...
Games usually center around a single character, and in that case publishers cannot appeal to a wider audience. it is a risk they have to take in order to appeal to the main audience.
As the United States becomes less white, and as the income inequality between minorities and Caucasians decrease, we will see more games that have a main character that is not an average Caucasian dudebro with brown hair.
PS: did not read the replies. Sorry if my point has already been posted/refuted.
Now that does not mean all gamers are young Caucasian males. Companies do realize that, and thus try to appeal to other gamers too via extra characters or other possible means (aka Borderlands etc)...
Games usually center around a single character, and in that case publishers cannot appeal to a wider audience. it is a risk they have to take in order to appeal to the main audience.
As the United States becomes less white, and as the income inequality between minorities and Caucasians decrease, we will see more games that have a main character that is not an average Caucasian dudebro with brown hair.
PS: did not read the replies. Sorry if my point has already been posted/refuted.
Pretty much. People will generally develop for an audience that is like them. Until you get a lot more minorities in the industry, it's not likely to change.
Speaking of which... are there any stats as to minority/female representation in game studios?
According to the ESA, the average gamer *isn't* a young male (without looking up the stats not sure about ethnicity.)
A more accurate descriptor would be "AAA games consumed by self-identified 'hardcore' gamers are more likely to be geared towards white male gamers who buy them."
It's been refuted in the OP
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Even on the same work you can find Caucasians that don't look that different from the Japanese (mustached guy is Italian, protagonist is Japanese)
while also finding ones that are distinctively White, or distinctively Asian.
But most don't bother with the second case unless it is relevant to the story.
while also finding ones that are distinctively White, or distinctively Asian.
But most don't bother with the second case unless it is relevant to the story.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I dont know how, I understand anime is an artsyle and not a direct representation but most dont look asian. Whats even funnier is when there is anime with actual more realistic asian designs then you automatically know what they are but the other characters are just up in the air.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I would think females would be pretty small in the industry especially those with power as I've found it hard to find a female core gamer so the probability of there being a lot in the industry is small, but with that case I have no problem in naming ten female protagonists at the top of my head, while I can only do three at the most for black characters and even less for anything else.
TheRedSnifit
Member
They don't look Asian to you because you see the "default" race as white. They look Asian in Japan because they see the "default" race as Asian. Do you see what I'm saying?
King Gilga
Member
Added the spoiler tag for this quote. I really hope that's just a random assumption you've made, from not having played the game, and it's not actually a real spoiler. I think I'm only a few hours from completing it too.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I see what your saying but I still believe that does not make much sense. If their was a white guy and japanese guy do you see a difference? I dont alot of times and thats what can give people a thinking that they look white. There are many white and japanese anime characters that really do not look any different.
The issue is you're treating Asians as a flavor who must look a specific way to you and you're treating white as the default who can look a variety of ways. Not to mention a lot of anime aren't going for hyper realism; these characters don't even look human if we want to get down into it.
Can you give some examples? Maybe it's not that they don't look different, but that you're attempting to identify the ethnicity of a simplified depiction of a human being by one set of physical markers while the person who drew the characters denoted their ethnicities with a different set of physical markers and as such you're ignoring the ways they do look different because those differences don't fall into the set of physical markers you're attempting to distinguish them with.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
The thing about stylized works is that people tend to impress their own experience onto the ambiguity of the designs themselves even if they are not a comment on ethnicity.
It's taken for granted that characters in stylized works are Japanese to Japanese, while I've noticed Westerners tend to claim that they are in fact "white" because who else are characters that have no exact analogue in real life going to look like but themselves? I suppose it's natural to make that comparison.
Stylization allows you to create abstracted forms of humans which means the artist can define what their characters are exactly regardless of real world perceived similarities. Case in point would be my 00 Gundam example. Setsuna is Middle-Eastern while Lockon (pictured below) is Irish. If we were to go by your assessment both characters would Caucasian/White/American/etc which isn't the case. Due to stylization/abstraction a character's facial features or lack there-of does not have to indicate potential geographical or ethnic origins. Such things are explicitly communicated in the work if they are considered to be important enough to warrant attention.
Sometimes however artists will choose to "other" a character by adding certain stereotypical physical/facial features in order to signify that a character is different from the main cast (exotic/foreign/etc) (like an exaggerated nose or square jaw for a Western/American character or notice-able epicanthic fold + other features for an Asian character). Sometimes that character will just be drawn in a more realistic fashion instead of stylized.
There's a great Brad Pitt example that I can't find at the moment.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Yeah I haven't played the game and that was just an assumption.
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