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But what does that have to do with the lack of representation in the industry?
I guess that means games should have an equal amount of each race or no race at all?
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Ethnic Minorities - "Forgot about them".
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But what does that have to do with the lack of representation in the industry?
I guess that means games should have an equal amount of each race or no race at all?
The most racist people are those fighting against racism. No, it makes no sense even with a generous interpretation.
'The most racist' kind of ruins the whole fucking statement.
And it's nice to have an end point in your mind, but if we are not there, we are not there.
Yeah, played through twice and I don't remember any black characters except Alexander. Which is a problem in itself (probably with my memory).
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Personally, I feel like they should have a presence, but not be stereotyped. I point back to my Delsin example - that's really along the lines of how I feel minorities should be portrayed. I realize I'm not really addressing the question of how the quantity of the portrayal of minorities in games should be approached too well, but the quality of their representation needs to improve.
Attacking everyone else and calling them racist was dumb, yeah. He could have definitely been less confrontational, especially around such a touchy subject. I feel like he was mad that race is an issue to begin with, and lashed out. I'm not excusing his behavior, or even defending it, but I think the core message behind his statement is an inherently good one.
Umm no. Reading exactly what he said I can say with confidence that your interpretation of the statement is too generous.
-MD-
Member
You don't get to pick what you're attracted to.
But race is an issue. Him being mad that race is an issue doesn't stop it from being one, and race not normally being a thing he thinks about doesn't make it a non-issue.
captainpat
Member
It's not even looks. They're judging an entire race based off their pre-convinced notions of what that race should look like and completely disregarding the variety of physical features that can be found in any race. It's pretty similar to stereotyping.
SenorArdilla
Member
BabyFaceKillah
Member
In a lot of cultures, including our own, the color of one's skin shows their class. If you have dark skin, you are considered poorer and pretty much undesirable. People can be very unattracted to someone they thought was attractive if they find out that person is indeed African American or half African American.
I think it's obvious that a lot of women of color have to something other than African American in order to be considered attractive.
A lot of black women have terrible self esteem, which is why black models and singers try so hard to bring positive messages about black beauty. And while I wouldn't change anything about myself...I don't have any desire to be a black woman in the games I play. @___@
Which is sad, yes.
I think it's obvious that a lot of women of color have to something other than African American in order to be considered attractive.
A lot of black women have terrible self esteem, which is why black models and singers try so hard to bring positive messages about black beauty. And while I wouldn't change anything about myself...I don't have any desire to be a black woman in the games I play. @___@
Which is sad, yes.
This is an issue in video games, tv and movies. Culture needs to change but I think we're slowly breaking stereotypes.
However I do disagree with the OP and his sources, the article mentions that the top 150 selling games in US don't hit the required ethnic percentages, not all of those games will be made in the US. Many games may achieve roughly similar ethnic diversity to that of their home country, they shouldn't need to meet American ethnic splits even though it's the biggest video game market.
However I do disagree with the OP and his sources, the article mentions that the top 150 selling games in US don't hit the required ethnic percentages, not all of those games will be made in the US. Many games may achieve roughly similar ethnic diversity to that of their home country, they shouldn't need to meet American ethnic splits even though it's the biggest video game market.
I agree with the main thrust of the thread, but just in regard to this particular item, were the 150 best-selling games all made in the US too? That would seem a reasonable comparison, but if not it seems a bit odd to expect a global industry to conform to only one countries racial makeup, particularly when concerning US minorities that aren't a notable presence elsewhere, such as Native Americans.
I wouldn't expect most developers to bother creating minority characters from other countries in case they got it horribly wrong (several examples I could put here!) so perhaps it would be better to compare just the top-selling 150 US-made games to its population for a more accurate read. And no wonder 'Asian/pacific' characters are mildly over-represented when, y'know, Japan, which is again quite a bizarre comparison when one category mentioned is a small local minority and another is an insanely broad section of the global population encompassing dozens of countries, even if combined it's only a small group in the US. If it were taken on a global scale, Asian characters in this top-selling 150 games are then probably under-represented!
Low use of child and elderly characters I'm not surprised at either, considering the use of action in videogames.
Brown-haired white guy is a homogenised marketing tool aimed at a large consumer group, I can't see that changing anytime soon, publishers hate any form of risk.
oconnomiyaki
Member
Yes and no. Ideally, we shouldn't transpose qualities onto someone because of their ethnicity, nationality, or culture, but for some people that is part of their identity. I've struggled for years with whether I was British or Kiwi, simply because I moved here when I was 12 and I'm a citizen of both. But I embraced the culture of New Zealand a lot more -- I'd be a tourist in the UK now -- and so that makes up a big part of my identity.
Likewise, my missus is Malaysian-Chinese but has lived her since she was 18 months old. Despite being heavily raised with Kiwi culture, she's also been raised with a 'traditional' Chinese family upbringing. So that's an area of interest as well, as she's often torn between loathing it and defending it, depending on who she's talking to.
It's why these issues are so complex and not easily defined in a discrete fashion. So that's why sometimes transcending racism is idealistic, because it just renders the whole discussion moot.
In the case of Delsin, his heritage was part of his identity, but not overly salient at times. Had it been so, though, it wouldn't be right to dismiss him because of that. On the other hand, we shouldn't suppose someone subscribes to a culture or viewpoint based on their genetic traits.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Where was this comic in the OT thread about ethnic preference in dating??
NipplesAndToes23
Member
I actually see a ton of playable child characters in games.
Off the top of my head:
The Boy from a Boy and His Blob
Aurora
The Backyard Baseball Games
Palom & Porom
Eiko
Horned boy from Ico
Clementime
Soccer Kid
Relm
All the old people I can think of are only in RPGs or fighters that fill those archetype roles while with children their is no distinct role for them.
Agreed, but not many of those child characters are going to be in a '150 top-selling games' list. I think the popularity of genres involving shooting and stabbing things pretty much precludes their use, although JRPGs still occasionally include children killing things with silly weapons etc, and adolescent characters on the border of child and adulthood are popular enough.
...A lot of games are made for children, so they have child protags
Link
Ninten
Ness
Lucas
Roy
Pokemon Trainer
Sora
Ventus
Aurora (Child of Light)
etc.
Lots of Nintendo, Japanese and RPG games.
Blast Processing
Member
Diversity is something I think Assassin's Creed does pretty well, and is under-appreciated for.
licktheenvelope
Member
... I assume you're speaking for Americans...
Riposte
Member
Why are there Charmanders in this comic?
Well on the brought side Asians certainly aren't underrepresented. I do think it's funny how Japanese games stereotype non-Japanese Asians though.
But on this side of the ocean - there really does need to be a better job off representing non-white ethnic groups and on non-stereotyped ways.
But on this side of the ocean - there really does need to be a better job off representing non-white ethnic groups and on non-stereotyped ways.
Death Penalty
Member
Under-representation definitely sucks, but it's hard for me to say that a developer should have thrown in more minorities when they chose not to or else made no decision about it whatsoever. If I'm honest, adding in minority characters just because there should be more minority characters doesn't seem like the proper solution to me, and I feel a lot more comfortable condemning harmful portrayals of certain groups. That's really easy to define, for me, where "not enough (insert group here)" is something I find a lot more difficult.
I'm not saying that minority groups aren't under-represented, there's no question that they are. But I'd vastly prefer the sort of character who is crafted because someone wanted to craft them and bring them to life, as opposed to the sort of forced, homogenized inclusion so similar to a McDonald's commercial. Or worse, disrespectful or harmful portrayals. Doing it for the sake of it seems soulless, and doing it offensively seems far worse. It's difficult to see some sort of clear solution; it would be great if more countries could break into game design and make it a more international affair than it already is.
I'm not saying that minority groups aren't under-represented, there's no question that they are. But I'd vastly prefer the sort of character who is crafted because someone wanted to craft them and bring them to life, as opposed to the sort of forced, homogenized inclusion so similar to a McDonald's commercial. Or worse, disrespectful or harmful portrayals. Doing it for the sake of it seems soulless, and doing it offensively seems far worse. It's difficult to see some sort of clear solution; it would be great if more countries could break into game design and make it a more international affair than it already is.
nephilimdj
Member
Black female from Half life 2.
Wouldn't say Valve are the best example of this, ugh. (Counter Strike GO concept art)
Final version wasn't much better.
I'd honestly rather a poor representation over none at all. Though, maybe that's just me.
...You say you want each character to not be made for forced/soulless purposes...but a lot of the white male protags we are given are created from marketing trends that are measured and regurgitated out as a gruff brooding white guy with short brown hair.
I get what you are saying but as a black man living in japan I can tell you the US influences this place a lot. That being said a lot of games that come from Japan have white protagonists, Metal Gear, DMC, RE and much more.
I dont want games to have minority characters because they are being forced too I just want them to try and expand their horizons. And before someone else says that more minority people should become game devs, the Japanese devs teams usually have 0 foreigners.
captainpat
Member
I would take forced diversity over what we have now, which is forced whiteness. We heard numerous devs complain about how hard it is to have a character that's not a straight white male.
I would welcome more diversity in video game protagonists and characters in general.
On the topic of invisible - I would say mixed race people are pretty damn rare in games. When they do appear a lot of people will try and identify them as one race, or reduce them to the "not too black" etc, as if it there is something wrong with being mixed race. It is possible that some of the decisions behind those making those characters mixed race were to do with that though.
You also have to consider that they may or may not identify with multiple cultures to higher or lesser degrees and that they can differ in how much of one races features they inherit.
On the topic of invisible - I would say mixed race people are pretty damn rare in games. When they do appear a lot of people will try and identify them as one race, or reduce them to the "not too black" etc, as if it there is something wrong with being mixed race. It is possible that some of the decisions behind those making those characters mixed race were to do with that though.
You also have to consider that they may or may not identify with multiple cultures to higher or lesser degrees and that they can differ in how much of one races features they inherit.
Wouldn't say Valve are the best example of this, ugh. (Counter Strike GO concept art)
Final version wasn't much better.
I have never played Half Life (apart from 1 for a bit) but from what I have saw regarding that women in Half-Life 2 is that I think she is overall well represented.
Corky, naive with a bit of humor and a positive way of looking at things.
Brainfreeze
Member
Lol why isn't this question being addressed.
It's sad that making a main character who is not white can be seen as checking off a box or just "forcing a character into the game" rather than the developers just making a good character. It's crazy to me that even with how homogenous the gaming industry is that there are seemingly so few developers who interact with non-white people that they have no idea how to create a non-white character that isn't a blaxploitation-esqe stereotype.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
That's a poor, poor example. I doubt anyone is saying all anime characters are white (that'd just be silly), they're saying the generic build of the current style leads towards Caucasian. There's some characters of blatant ethnicity and often stated as such.
I wouldn't say either side is entirely wrong. If you were to compare the extremely common trope of a blond haired transfer students being American you'll notice in a fair number of arts styles they look fairly similar to their Japanese equivalents sometimes with just a hair colour change and eye colour.
There is no absolute answer to this question as it goes case by case art style by art style.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Every thread I've seen on Gaf about minority representation in games and the industry is filled with "why does it matter" complaining, so it doesn't surprise me that the issue itself isn't covered as much.
According to some on this thread, minorities are also apparently bad for business
The colorblind thing is tired and unproductive.
Plus he said "do-gooders"
Come on
According to some on this thread, minorities are also apparently bad for business
The colorblind thing is tired and unproductive.
Plus he said "do-gooders"
Come on
Corky
A corky- cute and dorky.
Rhett is totally corky
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=corky
Agreed, Jacob is a cool dude. He is by far the most stable squadmate in the series, everyone else is crazy as fuck or has issues. The dude even stayed cool after all the BS that went down in his loyalty mission. Jacob is the squadmate I looked forward to talking to because I would have proper conversations with him, unlike other squadmates where I had to act like I was their psychiatrist, made worse by the fact that I really didn't care about their problems.
Bioware need to add more normal people like Jacob into the next Mass Effect, I'm sick and tired of being Dr fucking Phil in space.
oconnomiyaki
Member
I prefer adorkable, myself.
HiddenForbiddenHolyGround
Member
Hmm, not sure if I want to be that poster but, it's not just non-white ethnics. Take my group. How many prominent Slavic characters do you see that aren't faceless soldiers, thugs, or otherwise enemies? I don't think I'm wrong to bring this up but it feels uncomfortable nonetheless. Like people will say, ah that's a stupid complaint or that doesnt really matter.
It is tough when everyone wants to be represented. In one sense, it's not unreasonable to ask when the vast majority of characters are from one type of group and yet if everyone asks some people will throw up their arms and say, "see what you did? we can't accommodate everyone so let's do nothing at all." The "can't change everything, so change nothing" attitude is a real killer.
I feel for people who wish to see more of themselves in their media. I try to connect with every character I play with or become attached to regardless of gender or race or whatever and that usually works well for me but what works for some doesn't work for others and even then, of course I'd like to see some positive representation of what I identify with. But I'm also a strong believer in a creative's work being free (not from criticism certainly) to be put out as one wishes. If they made this work with these characters, I won't say they shouldn't or should do it differently but rather hope someone else may do this differently.
I think that one of the major issues regarding discussion of demographics and inclusivity is that we have so little actual data do base our discussions on. That piece by the Entertainment Software Association which says 50% of gamers are female is so skimpy on the details (what games do they play, what age groups, what race are they etc.), and yet it gets quoted all the time by journalists and bloggers alike.
Why? Well, probably because it's some of the only data we have to work with when it comes to discussions of representation. In my mind, before we try to convince publishers and devs to change their perception of the intended audience for their products, we should have something concrete to show. Because at the end of the day, in bussiness, nothing speaks like numbers and concrete proof of nearly untapped markets. If you want to appeal to an industry focused on profits, tell em there's money in your cause.
In short, what I'm trying to say is that what we should want is more research and clarity in the topics we discuss, so as to avoid what will eventually boil down to a war of personal feelings on race representation in media rather than genuine discussion based on facts and research.
KojiKnight
Member
There are definitely some exceptions to the main character being non-white and selling. Wasn't the Walking Dead Tell Tale series one of their best selling ever?
It's not that people don't want to play minorities, it's that they don't want to play a stereotype. Stereotypes are predictable and boring and as noted in this thread and other places, downright insulting.
It's not that people don't want to play minorities, it's that they don't want to play a stereotype. Stereotypes are predictable and boring and as noted in this thread and other places, downright insulting.
Ha, yeah Slavic peoples are the perpetual bogeyman in Western media.
MackAttack
Banned
LOL. Sounds exactly like my racist republican uncle.
I think that the industry is def getting better. Developers are taking narrative more seriously and that is naturally leading to characters that are more diverse and interesting. We're also seeing more non-white secondary and tertiary characters that aren't just living stereotypes.
That said, this is still an industry where the producers and consumers are overwhelmingly white, so I don't expect that we'll ever see more than a handful of minority leads. Even more socially progressive industries like movies and television still have more bad years than good when it comes to minority representation and fair portrayals.
That said, this is still an industry where the producers and consumers are overwhelmingly white, so I don't expect that we'll ever see more than a handful of minority leads. Even more socially progressive industries like movies and television still have more bad years than good when it comes to minority representation and fair portrayals.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
I think the problem comes when we can identify a pattern of thinking in our society. One guy just not being attracted to black women isn't a problem, just like one game having a white protagonist isn't, or one game being about saving a woman.
but when a clear pattern of choice presents itself within the aggregate, then it might be a problem. That's when it's a good idea to start asking questions about why that is. Instead of just thinking "I'm not attracted to black women", ask yourself honestly why that is.
This is the main problem I found with the discussion of Anita Sarkeesian's videos. People were arguing that she was wrong about the specific details of individual titles, when the point of her series was to point out a trend exhibited across many different titles.
So when I'm asking "color blind" people to identify racist aspects of themselves, I'm not saying judge everything you do as potentially racist. but when there's a clear problem presented in front of you, think about how you possibly could be contributing to it, and if you are, make an active effort to change going forward, or at the very least gain perspective on the problem based on how you relate to it. That's the only way things get better. Not by people just deciding for themselves that they don't see race and can't possibly be racist as a result.
A preference towards a certain race can also be a form of racism. Like the fetishization of Asian and Latino women as being "exotic" in our society
Persian? You must be joking because why the fuck would a Persian be in the crusaders kingdom? He is an arabian.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
A bit strange where some of these debates are going but strangely I think video games have done a better job than Hollywood (movies) have in recent years.
