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[bigjig]

There aren't more minorities in games because it just doesn't make good business sense in general. If you are going to risk tens, sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars to develop and market a game, what possible advantage would there be to not try and appeal to a majority audience?

Not only would putting in a minority character instantly limit the potential audience for your game, you are also going to come under way more scrutiny than you would do otherwise with a white guy. Heaven forbid if you're minority character isn't represented in an absolutely perfect light. Businesses don't make games to make art, because 'making art' doesn't put food on the table. Your best chance to see more representation is in indie games.

 

[PK Gaming]

Jacob was dry as fuck tho

Seriously

His saving grace was the meme that resulted from his romance scene with Shepard.

 

[Riposte]

Jacob was a cool dude. A straight-man to all the crazies on the ship (possibly Shepard included). He also had one of the most interesting loyalty quests. Doesn't quite fill the role he should in 2 and completely wasted in 3.

 

[zhorkat]

There aren't more minorities in games because it just doesn't make good business sense in general. If you are going to risk tens, sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars to develop and market a game, what possible advantage would there be to not try and appeal to a majority audience?

Not only would putting in a minority character instantly limit the potential audience for your game, you are also going to come under way more scrutiny than you would do otherwise with a white guy. Heaven forbid if you're minority character isn't represented in an absolutely perfect light. Businesses don't make games to make art, because 'making art' doesn't put food on the table. Your best chance to see more representation is in indie games.

Continuing along that line of thinking, you would think that all AAA games would include character creators so that they don't limit a potential audience by using a predefined protagonist that some people can't identify with.

 

[Brainfreeze]

because you're unable to identify it when it appears in your own behavior.

You can "respect" any person regardless of skin color. but that doesn't mean you don't make assumptions about that person based on their race, or have a preference or bias towards a certain race. It doesn't even keep you from making an insensitive joke based on race.

None of these things fit the label of a racist in our society, but they are acts of racism. Thinking someone is smart because they're asian or just "personally" not being attracted to black women or making a joke based on an ethnic stereotype "all in good fun". All common occurrences on this very website from people just like you. People that are convinced that they respect all races equally.

Which is why I don't really buy the idea of color blindness. To me it doesn't mean you don't see race, it means you don't see racism in it's modern day form.

Not to derail your point, but not being attracted to a specific race isn't anymore racist than being gay is sexist. That point kinda bothered me.

 

[Clownboat]

I'm confused, are we offended by black characters who speak and act like black people, or by black characters who don't speak and act like black people?

 

[Muscle Wizard]

Not to derail your point, but not being attracted to a specific race isn't anymore racist than being gay is sexist. That point kinda bothered me.

It actually kind of is.

 

[Infinite]

Not to derail your point, but not being attracted to a specific race isn't anymore racist than being gay is sexist. That point kinda bothered me.

It kinda is and your present a false equivalency to make your case.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Can you give some examples? Maybe it's not that they don't look different, but that you're attempting to identify the ethnicity of a simplified depiction of a human being by one set of physical markers while the person who drew the characters denoted their ethnicities with a different set of physical markers and as such you're ignoring the ways they do look different because those differences don't fall into the set of physical markers you're attempting to distinguish them with.

Like here streeseman from Nodaime..he is a white french man but he could just as easily be classified as japanese because, japanese is the default race when watching anime. Only if you have been following the story would you know what he is. Thats all im saying.

 

[Muscle Wizard]

I'm confused, are we offended by black characters who speak and act like black people, or by black characters who don't speak and act like black people?

We're offended by the overall lack of representation, be it from absence of ethnic groups or offensive stereotypes.

 

[Muscle Wizard]

If you really want to see how fucked up representation in games can be, even for minor characters, I present to you a clip from Deus Ex: Human Revolution, a game released only three years ago

 

[LouisaFerre]

It kinda is and your present a false equivalency to make your case.

I don't really understand to be honest. I mean, arbitrarily limiting your dating pool because of race is bad, but if someone is just less attracted to common features of one race than another, is that morally wrong?

 

[Brainfreeze]

It kinda is and your present a false equivalency to make your case.

In what way is that a false equivalency? Honest question. You can't control who you're attracted to, it doesn't mean somebody thinks less of a specific race just because they aren't attracted to them.

 

[Infinite]

Like here streeseman from Nodaime..he is a white french man but he could just as easily be classified as japanese because, japanese is the default race when watching anime. Only if you have been following the story would you know what he is. Thats all im saying.

I don't think you have to explain to your audience that a character with a western name who's from a western country is from the west.

I don't really understand to be honest. I mean, arbitrarily limiting your dating pool because of race is bad, but if someone is just less attracted to common features of one race than another, is that morally wrong?

In what way is that a false equivalency? Honest question. You can't control who you're attracted to, it doesn't mean somebody thinks less of a specific race just because they aren't attracted to them.

I don't want to debate this in this thread.

 

[Gorillaz]

There aren't more minorities in games because it just doesn't make good business sense in general. If you are going to risk tens, sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars to develop and market a game, what possible advantage would there be to not try and appeal to a majority audience?

Not only would putting in a minority character instantly limit the potential audience for your game, you are also going to come under way more scrutiny than you would do otherwise with a white guy. Heaven forbid if you're minority character isn't represented in an absolutely perfect light. Businesses don't make games to make art, because 'making art' doesn't put food on the table. Your best chance to see more representation is in indie games.

That's a copout. The oldest copout

The simple fact is most storylines in video games are mediocre to terrible. Half of them can barely make a decent storyline with a blank canvas of white male heterosexual lead. It's not because "art doesn't bring money in" it's because they are terrible writers to begin with who have no real sense of how to make a story arc.

 

[Muscle Wizard]

Question: Has anyone here ever passed on a game due to the protagonist's race or gender?

 

[licktheenvelope]

Oh, of course. I'm Mexican, El Fuerte from Street Fighter is a luchador, lol. But I think it's cool, and despite being a stereotype, I like that Mexico is now represented in the roster.

Spoiler

I'm still maining Rose, though

Vega was Spanish... though technically from Spain.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

I don't think you have to explain to your audience that a character with a western name who's from a western country is from the west.

Thats not the point but ok. Im done.

 

[licktheenvelope]

It actually kind of is.

? Not being attracted to an ethnicity is not racist...

Racism is actions, practices or beliefs, or social or political systems that consider different races to be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities.

 

[Infinite]

Thats not the point but ok. Im done.

what is your point then?

 

[Muscle Wizard]

To the people who claim not being attracted to an entire race is not racist: You are judging an entire race and discriminating by looks alone. Sounds like textbook racism.

 

[Brainfreeze]

If you really want to see how fucked up representation in games can be, even for minor characters, I present to you a clip from Deus Ex: Human Revolution, a game released only three years ago

This example always bothers me. There's plenty of non-stereotypical characters in this game from a number of ethnicities, including black. Some people in real life behave and sound this way, portraying that isn't racist on its own. If every character was a bad stereotype than you'd have a case, but since she's a lone example it just seems silly to be offended by her. Especially when we often talk about bringing in diversity to diversify our characters, and my understanding is that the black woman doing the voice for this character basically created her personality.

It may speak to larger perceptions that we assume this race based, or that that's the first voice that popped into that woman's mind, but people like this do exist. It's seems more insulting to those people to play-off characters like them as purely stereotypes.

 

[Proponent]

I think we are just supposed to be offended no matter what.

Haha well I'll tell you what, 'create a character' never hurt anyone.
It really does solve most issues and concerns surrounding protagonist looks for non-strong narrative driven games.

It solves the problem of inclusion regardless of whose picture appears on the box art cover, all the while appealing to a much broader mass market.

 

[licktheenvelope]

To the people who claim not being attracted to an entire race is not racist: You are judging an entire race and discriminating by looks alone. Sounds like textbook racism.

You're not judging though... that's not how attraction works. As the definition states you would have to believe the race in inferior... that's not what attraction is, it's just what you prefer.

It's like if I say: "I prefer Apples to Oranges".... i'm not saying "Apples are better than Oranges"...

 

[Infinite]

? Not being attracted to an ethnicity is not racist...

Imma tell you right now that you shouldn't use a dictionary to define racism especially if you're going to raise it up as a point in a discussion like this one.

 

[Brainfreeze]

To the people who claim not being attracted to an entire race is not racist: You are judging an entire race and discriminating by looks alone. Sounds like textbook racism.

And some people prefer blondes over brunettes.

You aren't assuming things or passing judgement, it's a natural physical reaction. I don't see that as racism.

 

[licktheenvelope]

Imma tell you right now that you shouldn't use a dictionary to define racism especially if you're going to raise it up as a point in a discussion like this one.

So if I say 'I prefer Icelandic Women to Jewish Women' i'm being racist?

What?

 

[Balb]

And some people prefer blondes over brunettes.

You aren't assuming things or passing judgement, it's a natural physical reaction. I don't see that as racism.

I wouldn't say natural. Attraction is heavily socialized. People in different regions prefer different qualities of other men/women.

 

[Infinite]

So if I say 'I prefer Icelandic Women to Jewish Women' i'm being racist?

What?

I really don't want to have this debate with you on this thing. It will take away from the thread. I'm just saying if you're participating in a thread about ethnic diversity you ought to know that a 1 sentence dictionary definition of racism is doing you no favors.

 

[Revolutionary]

At this point in time, I don't even care anymore. We've lost the battle.

Anyway, I couldn't help but chuckle when they relegated all minority duties in Tomb Raider to the black chick who happened to be named Reyes. Black and Hispanic in one character, that's one way to address ethnic diversity lol

 

[Muscle Wizard]

This example always bothers me. There's plenty of non-stereotypical characters in this game from a number of ethnicities, including black. Some people in real life behave and sound this way, portraying that isn't racist on its own. If every character was a bad stereotype than you'd have a case, but since she's a lone example it just seems silly to be offended by her. Especially when we often talk about bringing in diversity to diversify our characters, and my understanding is that the black woman doing the voice for this character basically created her personality.

It may speak to larger perceptions that we assume this race based, or that that's the first voice that popped into that woman's mind, but people like this do exist. It's seems more insulting to those people to play-off characters like them as purely stereotypes.

The problem is that out of all the other represented ethnicities, this is the main one for black people: a jive-talking homeless woman digging through the trash. Just because other ethnicities are represented well doesn't excuse this street performance of Mammy. Even if the voice actress decided to come in and do this voice, the ADR director and a slew of other people approved it. This is a caricature as old as print.

 

[licktheenvelope]

I wouldn't say natural. Attraction is heavily socialized. People in different regions prefer different qualities of other men/women.

That's true. Don't think i'd call it being racist though. Again there's an implication there that there's inferiority.

I'm not into blondes ... but I don't think they are inferior people...

 

[Zoe]

Continuing along that line of thinking, you would think that all AAA games would include character creators so that they don't limit a potential audience by using a predefined protagonist that some people can't identify with.

What if that's not the story the maker wants to tell?

 

[Muscle Wizard]

So if I say 'I prefer Icelandic Women to Jewish Women' i'm being racist?

What?

No, you're being anti-Semitic.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Come on, guys.

 

[licktheenvelope]

I really don't want to have this debate with you on this thing. It will take away from the thread. I'm just saying if you're participating in a thread about ethnic diversity you ought to know that a 1 sentence dictionary definition of racism is doing you no favors.

I wasn't participating in a debate about ethnic diversity, I was responding to a comment that your personal attractions to the opposite sex are racist if you don't see everyone as equally compatible with you...

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Like here streeseman from Nodaime..he is a white french man but he could just as easily be classified as japanese because, japanese is the default race when watching anime. Only if you have been following the story would you know what he is. Thats all im saying.

I think I covered this in my post on the last page.

Spoiler

At the very bottom.

 

[Muscle Wizard]

I wouldn't say natural. Attraction is heavily socialized. People in different regions prefer different qualities of other men/women.

Precisely. Look at the latest fashion trends, such as black women straightening their hair because "whiteness" is the current cultural standard of beauty.

 

[Infinite]

What if that's not the story the maker wants to tell?

That contradicts with the business argument in that case.

 

[Brainfreeze]

I wouldn't say natural. Attraction is heavily socialized. People in different regions prefer different qualities of other men/women.

True, it's at least partially a "nuture" reaction for everyone. But the point stays. If some man from one of those indigenous African tribes where women elongate their necks came to America and didn't find anybody attractive I wouldn't say he was discriminating, even if his preference was likely taught.

I really don't want to have this debate with you on this thing. It will take away from the thread. I'm just saying if you're participating in a thread about ethnic diversity you ought to know that a 1 sentence dictionary definition of racism is doing you no favors.

This is true, you have to be careful with definitions like that. For example, I always hate the idea that racism is only when you find another race inferior. The "all Asians are good at math" stereotype is still racist and hurtful.

 

[zhorkat]

Like here streeseman from Nodaime..he is a white french man but he could just as easily be classified as japanese because, japanese is the default race when watching anime. Only if you have been following the story would you know what he is. Thats all im saying.

Why could he just as easily be classified as Japanese? My argument was that there might be aspects of his appearance that you don't find distinctive that the person who drew him thought would distinguish him from the Japanese characters. It's hard for me to take a character that I presume is visually distinct and just believe you that there are no defining traits that distinguish him from the rest of the cast.

What if that's not the story the maker wants to tell?

The person who I was quoting said "Businesses don't make games to make art, because 'making art' doesn't put food on the table", and I feel that if you hold with that line of thought, businesses similarly won't care about the story the maker wants to tell, because the story the maker wants to tell might make them less money than another story.

 

[Birathen]

No, you're being anti-Semitic.

Or pro-icelandic

 

[Dead Man]

I thought we were past the Black Heavy Weapons guy in shooters, but BF4 seems to think otherwise.

 

[NastyBook]

I hated Big Bo, though I might be in the minority. He's worse than Cole Train.

I must not have played with Big Bo enough to find him anywhere near as bad as Cole Train. Aside from a few lines scattered throughout the game that had some "A'ints" and "Hell naws," his lines were delivered pretty clearly and without sounding too stereotypical. Him referring to the main character as his brother didn't come off bad to me either, considering how long they've worked together. "She sho is purty" was the fucking worst of it, though. That was the only time I rolled my eyes listening to him.

 

[Brainfreeze]

The problem is that out of all the other represented ethnicities, this is the main one for black people: a jive-talking homeless woman digging through the trash. Just because other ethnicities are represented well doesn't excuse this street performance of Mammy. Even if the voice actress decided to come in and do this voice, the ADR director and a slew of other people approved it. This is a caricature as old as print.

But if a bunch of white directors told a black voice actress she couldn't portray the character she wanted because she wasn't representing black people very nicely, doesn't that sound worse? I mean, she's black, who the hell am I to tell her she's portraying her own race 'incorrectly?' I see what you're saying in terms of the player's perception, but if I was working on this game and that's the voice she chose I'd have left it in too.

And like half the characters in this game are homeless, and the fact that she's so desperate is how her mechanics work, in that you can pay her for information, so I wouldn't look to hard into that.

I don't know, I don't want to come off like "You're WRONG to be offended!" because you're not, but for me she's just one of the weaker examples of shitty minority representation, even though she's possibly the one I see posted most often.

 

[DeejayKnight]

Conversations like this are generally why I prefer games with Create-A-Character modes, etc. The main characters tend to never be black, so I can't emulate myself. It felt so awesome to make my Shepard look as close to me as possible, and I'm not the only person that felt that way. Why can't more games take that cue and let the player be who they choose?

The sad part of it all is that if they were to simply cast people of color into roles/characters that weren't written with any specific ethnicity in mind, I'm pretty sure that this entire issue would be resolved. The problem is that they keep writing ethnic characters to be stereotypical, rather than being writers. Write the characters and letting them grow naturally and not to some stereotypical expectation.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

To answer the OP's question on why the situation revolving around ethnic minorities may have dropped out of the media's attention in the past few years, I think it's at least partly due to a lower number of controversial events to spur discussion.

I could be wrong but I think articles and discussion are more likely to be generated around a topic when controversial events surrounding that topic occur. So it could be something like a game releasing featuring overtly racist events or tones/language which would then be highlighted by a forum or news site, which would then in turn be linked to numerous places on the internet which would then generate discussion. The desired end result of all this would be the seeds of this discussion finding its way into the minds of people who have the resources and capability to make positive decisions (ones resulting in furthering the inclusiveness of ethnic minorities).

An example would be something like Developer A reading forum B and contemplating idea C which might result in them perhaps taking a look at ethnic characters in their game and seeing what they can do to refine their portrayals and/or involvement in the game.

I think that's a good change and what I believe public discussions have the power to do, even if we are not aware of it.

 

[NastyBook]

This is why I like games that let me create/customize my character.

"Stay out of trouble, Redguard."

Spoiler

But I do understand where you're coming from.

 

[zeldablue]

To answer the OP's question on why the situation revolving around ethnic minorities may have dropped out of the media's attention in the past few years, I think it's at least partly due to a lower number of controversial events to spur discussion.

I could be wrong but I think articles and discussion are more likely to be generated around a topic when controversial events surrounding that topic occur. So it could be something like a game releasing featuring overtly racist events or tones/language which would then be highlighted by a forum or news site, which would then in turn be linked to numerous places on the internet which would then generate discussion. The desired end result of all this would be the seeds of this discussion finding its way into the minds of people who have the resources and capability to make positive decisions (ones resulting in furthering the inclusiveness of ethnic minorities).

An example would be something like Developer A reading forum B and contemplating idea C which might result in them perhaps taking a look at ethnic characters in their game and seeing what they can do to refine their portrayals and/or involvement in the game.

I think that's a good change and what I believe public discussions have the power to do, even if we are not aware of it.

...Sooo

Resident Evil 5? Haha. Alright, maybe not.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

The most racist people in my mind are do-gooders who like to bring up the issue of 'race' at all. It's not something I normally would ever think about.

I think everyone is misunderstanding this statement. The line of thinking here is that we're all human, and race should be a "non-issue" - black/white/asian/hispanic/etc. should all be treated the same way. It's a statement that we should transcend racism, not ignore it. Delsin from inFamous: SS is a good example. He's Native American, and it's touched upon, but he's mostly just "Delsin" and not stereotyped or categorized into ethnic tropes.

I know most people see statements like this and think "wishful thinking" or "how nice it is to ignore the world's problems", but this is really the line of thinking we need to get to if racism if ever going to go away. Of course, we can't just zip to the finish line and ignore all the baby steps we have to take to get there, but the attack on z-layrex here is a misunderstanding, I think.