SOULS series - Best to worst?
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The Mad Draklor
Member
I like Demon's Souls the most mainly because of the tendency system. Dark Souls is just below DeS because of its improvements and larger scale. Dark Souls 2 is good, too, but doesn't offer anything much different from the last two.
Maiden Astraea was the only really memorable boss fight. The rest were just boss fights. I got stuck on Allant, but remembering a fight because it was hard doesn't really mean it's memorable. Four Kings was more memorable in that regard, but I suppose everyone will remember Ancient Dragon as being bullshit, so eh.
Alternatively, Mr. X from Streets of Rage 2 is a more memorable boss fight than all of them, so...
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Please explain why. I have very close opinions to yours but they're not very common opinions here on GAF. I'd like to know your reasoning why you think Demon and DkS2 are both MUCH better than DkS1.
I'll need to make a post on this one.
My choice would be Dark 2 >= Dark >>>> Demon's.
Dark 1 and 2 both have a large set of advantages and disadvantages (better online, better mechanics, and much more content for DS2, more intriguing NPCs and better interconnected world design for DS1).
Demon's, to me, feels more like an alpha concept demo compared to both Dark titles.
My choice would be Dark 2 >= Dark >>>> Demon's.
Dark 1 and 2 both have a large set of advantages and disadvantages (better online, better mechanics, and much more content for DS2, more intriguing NPCs and better interconnected world design for DS1).
Demon's, to me, feels more like an alpha concept demo compared to both Dark titles.
All are excellent, but if I had to choose, Demons Souls felt like a much more congealed, realized experience. I enjoyed the hub world structure more as well.
Dark Souls 1 and 2 are pretty close for me, although I do think DaS2 added some features that made it a better feeling experience to play.
Dark Souls 1 and 2 are pretty close for me, although I do think DaS2 added some features that made it a better feeling experience to play.
Polioliolio
Member
Demon's > Dark > Dark 2
Now, they all are pretty great, but here's why Demon's is tops:
- The story is hands down the best. They give you a well narrated introduction right off the bat, tell you what you need to know, and even more details can be gathered through the world as you encounter items, npcs, enemies, etc.
- Has the best bosses (generally). This includes their introductions. Dark Souls dropped the ball by not properly introducing its bosses.. Final boss just walks over like a trash mob.. Meanwhile, King Allant scared the shit out of me.
- Music and sound is all very cohesive.. Feels like it all belongs together.. great stuff. The other games do it alright, but it's best in Demon's.
- The characters you come into contact with are the best group of NPCs I've ever met. So much character and so well written, and they aren't in your face. Dark Souls felt like a step back in comparison, and Dark Souls 2 is most definitely the weakest in the bunch here.
- Demon's did it first, and the other two games don't do enough to keep it fresh.
- Dark Souls 2 is great, has loads of content, but ultimately feels a bit like the cutting room floor.
Now, they all are pretty great, but here's why Demon's is tops:
- The story is hands down the best. They give you a well narrated introduction right off the bat, tell you what you need to know, and even more details can be gathered through the world as you encounter items, npcs, enemies, etc.
- Has the best bosses (generally). This includes their introductions. Dark Souls dropped the ball by not properly introducing its bosses.. Final boss just walks over like a trash mob.. Meanwhile, King Allant scared the shit out of me.
- Music and sound is all very cohesive.. Feels like it all belongs together.. great stuff. The other games do it alright, but it's best in Demon's.
- The characters you come into contact with are the best group of NPCs I've ever met. So much character and so well written, and they aren't in your face. Dark Souls felt like a step back in comparison, and Dark Souls 2 is most definitely the weakest in the bunch here.
- Demon's did it first, and the other two games don't do enough to keep it fresh.
- Dark Souls 2 is great, has loads of content, but ultimately feels a bit like the cutting room floor.
Generally the "first" of anything is pretty unpolished, and I would say that's definitely true in Demon's Souls. But again, as I already stated earlier, it depends on what you like. They're all very different experiences and have pretty different goals that they carry out.
A little off-topic on this one, I don't know how known this funny piece of trivia is. It came up between me a friend a while back;
Demon's Souls concept art
Didn't notice the edit? If you looked a little closer...
Demon's Souls concept art
Except it has a slight edit
Didn't notice the edit? If you looked a little closer...
Left; Original concept art, Right; Shot lifted from the movie and shopped into the picture above
The most concise answer I can give is Demon's and Dark 2, to me, felt extremely user friendly than compared to Dark.
linko9
Member
I really loved Demon's when I first played it, and still do. Obviously, being introduced to this series, you get to appreciate what it has to offer for the first time, and it's all very impressive. But even at the time, I had some semi-serious issues with the game; the world tendency system was garbage, some areas were tedious (Valley of Defilement especially), the progression within each area was a bit too linear, and the encumbrance system was just annoying. There were other minor gripes, but overall the good far outweighed the bad.
Then Dark Souls came about and fixed almost all of the issues I had with the previous game, and even some issues I didn't know I had (no more grass!). Then, when I went back and replayed Demon's Souls, the flaws were even more apparent. So for me, Dark easily outdoes Demon's in almost every way. The only thing I really prefer about DeS is the upgrade system.
Still too early for me to be completely sure on DS2 (only put in ~60 hours on one playthrough), but so far I'd say it's not quite as good as Dark Souls. It's major advantage is in some absolutely beautiful areas that outdo Dark Souls 1, but for all those there are some real stinkers too. Definitely prefer it to DeS though.
Then Dark Souls came about and fixed almost all of the issues I had with the previous game, and even some issues I didn't know I had (no more grass!). Then, when I went back and replayed Demon's Souls, the flaws were even more apparent. So for me, Dark easily outdoes Demon's in almost every way. The only thing I really prefer about DeS is the upgrade system.
Still too early for me to be completely sure on DS2 (only put in ~60 hours on one playthrough), but so far I'd say it's not quite as good as Dark Souls. It's major advantage is in some absolutely beautiful areas that outdo Dark Souls 1, but for all those there are some real stinkers too. Definitely prefer it to DeS though.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Interesting stats from the poll (22.35 GMT):
91 people think DeS was the best.
105 people think DkS was the best.
20 people think DkS2 was the best.
Just wow. I think that is very telling. Honestly I am also pleasantly surprised in how many people prefer DeS.
91 people think DeS was the best.
105 people think DkS was the best.
20 people think DkS2 was the best.
Just wow. I think that is very telling. Honestly I am also pleasantly surprised in how many people prefer DeS.
I could not agree more. Like I said earlier, though. You have to consider the fact that Demon's is going to be looked at more fondly because it is the first one they played. Dark Souls II is the newest so a lot consider it the worst of the series because it's been 2-3 months since it released.
I cant believe I forgot to mention how much better the online is in Dark Souls II, at least on pc. Simply outstanding, much better than Dark Souls on ps3 and pc(my experiences) and I can't fairly judge Demon's because I played it 5 years after release.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Couldn't have said it better myself.
iRAWRasaurus
Banned
If anything Dark Souls 2 would be consider the weakest of the three. But its still miles better then the majority of the games released today.
It's going to be difficult to really weigh this as an accurate measure of how much people actually like Dark Souls 2, given that the game's been out a month while the other games have had years to garner their audience. Will be more interesting if the same question gets asked after Miyazaki releases his new game, to see what fans think of the series' past.
I'm confident in saying that the Dragon Aerie is my favorite area in any Souls game though.
Culebra 64
Member
I voted DS>>DeS>>DS2
I'll explain in reverse...
DS2 just feels somewhat disjointed to me. I still really like the game, but I never got a good sense of continuity between the areas, and kind of just remembered each section as just that, a section. I also have a Quality Build going, and none of the weapons really gel with me, I feel somewhat less satisfied overall. I'm playing on PS3.
DeS gets points for being the first and blowing my mind when I originally played it...but it's design allowed me to farm it into breaking pretty easily. I spent so much time farming in Demon's that about 2/3rds of the game was just straight up a cake walk.
DS is the perfect balance so far, which is ironic in a way because when I first played it, I disliked it somewhat. After I really got into it though I fell in love with it. Level design is somewhat sublime in the way it folds in on itself in not immediately obvious ways. Boss fights (generally) seemed important and well thought out, and the game really was that balance of difficult yet fair. I originally started playing it on PS3, but came back to it on PC.
I'll explain in reverse...
DS2 just feels somewhat disjointed to me. I still really like the game, but I never got a good sense of continuity between the areas, and kind of just remembered each section as just that, a section. I also have a Quality Build going, and none of the weapons really gel with me, I feel somewhat less satisfied overall. I'm playing on PS3.
DeS gets points for being the first and blowing my mind when I originally played it...but it's design allowed me to farm it into breaking pretty easily. I spent so much time farming in Demon's that about 2/3rds of the game was just straight up a cake walk.
DS is the perfect balance so far, which is ironic in a way because when I first played it, I disliked it somewhat. After I really got into it though I fell in love with it. Level design is somewhat sublime in the way it folds in on itself in not immediately obvious ways. Boss fights (generally) seemed important and well thought out, and the game really was that balance of difficult yet fair. I originally started playing it on PS3, but came back to it on PC.
IAmRandom31
Banned
Currently playing through DS2 ( I know I said I wouldn't ... but you know how it is ) and it is as bad as I feared.
Everything just feels 2nd hand, unpolished, etc. Atmosphere is pretty bad, the fast travel system can go straight to Skyrim where it belongs, the combat moves are junk so far ( used rapiers, swords, spears so far ) and the enemies seem to have little to no thought behind them. The healing mechanics are also junk. It took about 2 hours to have a collection of 20+ potions, able to buy more from very easy to find merchants.
And that fast travel system. WTF.
Just wish the game was never made to be honest. It felt like a milk job before it launched and after playing it for a bit, pretty much confirmed as a milk job with poor design decisions throughout.
Everything just feels 2nd hand, unpolished, etc. Atmosphere is pretty bad, the fast travel system can go straight to Skyrim where it belongs, the combat moves are junk so far ( used rapiers, swords, spears so far ) and the enemies seem to have little to no thought behind them. The healing mechanics are also junk. It took about 2 hours to have a collection of 20+ potions, able to buy more from very easy to find merchants.
And that fast travel system. WTF.
Just wish the game was never made to be honest. It felt like a milk job before it launched and after playing it for a bit, pretty much confirmed as a milk job with poor design decisions throughout.
Exploding8
Member
I mean its a matter of opinion obviously. To me the most memorable fight was the yellow monk that summoned a player to fight you. That or the Flamelurker / God Dragon. Or the Tower Knight...
Hell, even the first real boss Phalanx was memorable, it was literally just a bunch of slugs with shields and spears stuck together xD
There's a few interesting bosses in DK2, but most of them were really meh... I only just finished it and the only really interesting bosses I remember are
Demon of Song, Duke's Freja, and the DarkLurker. And maybe the Old Iron King / that skeleton chariot thing
But then maybe I'm just used to the types of bosses now, since during Demon's Souls everything was new and shiny.
I think when people go back to playing DS1 after playing DS2 for a significant amount of time they will notice how big a mechanical improvement the latter really is.
I tried Dark Souls on PC, got up to Blighttown and quit after getting bored and frustrated. I'm not sure if I'll ever go back, but I wasn't enjoying myself.
Meanwhile, I started Demon's Souls the other day, and am actually enjoying myself. I'm not sure why, but it just feels better for some reason, like the combat and controls. The level design seems better as well. I like the hub design more than the open world design.
Haven't played Dark Souls II.
So yeah, I guess it's Demon's >>>> Dark.
Meanwhile, I started Demon's Souls the other day, and am actually enjoying myself. I'm not sure why, but it just feels better for some reason, like the combat and controls. The level design seems better as well. I like the hub design more than the open world design.
Haven't played Dark Souls II.
So yeah, I guess it's Demon's >>>> Dark.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
All I can say is, if they excise the few demons that haunt each game, you will have Die Überspeilen. What wonders can Project Beast bring? Will it be one bereft of the new problems that plague each entry? Will it win Gen 8?
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
I find that extremely difficult to believe that will ever happen.
I think part of it might just be that I didn't have trouble on the bosses everyone else did, so my opinion's really skewed on the "best bosses" issue. Maneater was a chump, and so was Garl Vinland, but I remember Maiden Astraea because of the speech, not really because the boss battle was memorable. Four Kings was memorable because its name was anachronistic, where the entire battle was centered on this idea that I never even saw initially (wasn't until my second playthrough that I got up to four kings as opposed to just killing three due to over-damage).
But yeah, I think part of DS2 is also just fatigue. It's hard to keep pumping the same well for inspiration and I believe that part of the reason more people aren't fans of it is because it comes with a huge amount of retrospect stacked up against it.
What's wrong with the fast travel? I don't want to spend 20 minutes running through areas that I've mastered and have zero chance of dying in. What's so fun about that? Fast travel, do what I had to do in one minute and then focus on the REAL meat of the game. Which are the new areas that I haven't been through.
Demon's technically has fast travel, hub world and stage warping.
Dark Souls has fast travel. People go nuts because you can see a 2d backdrop of Izalith from tomb of the giants. Guess what, you can see the platform where you fight the pursuer from Majula.
I certainly noticed the inability to roll while running.
AgentOtaku
Member
Completely agree. Beat Demon's, currently playing Dark (up to Sen's Fortress), and tried 3 hours of Dark2
DeS > Dark >> Dark2
Uncle Rupee
Banned
I haven't played DS2 yet but the idea of having to travel back to Majula just to level up seems really dumb. Also when leveling having to listen to the woman's dialog every time before getting into the leveling screen seems dumb. A lot of stuff brought up in Matthewmatosis's critique seems genuinely bad. In fact after watching it I have doubts about playing DS2 at all.
Yeah, I agree. It's kind of amazing how good of a job they did with regards to improving the mechanics. There are actually a ton of new viable options that simply don't exist in the older games as a result of how tunnel-vision-y the systems of the other games are (not having useless stats being amongst the bigger improvements, and even more than that, not being forced to gimp yourself because one stat or the other wasn't chosen - also Soul Vessels are a godsend).
Still, a phantom hitboxes patch as well as some of the more egregious bugs (Rolling Parries... come on now) would be great. Toning down Avelyn's would be nice too.
Romars202129
Member
Dark II was really missing the magic imo. Also, a bit surprised to see Demon's winning. I mean, those fans are very vocal, and even I admit Demon's wipes the others in story but...
Them bosses and that level design, Dark is untouchable, especially with the Artorias DLC added in. Game of the gen by a wide margin, imo. It's the most fun I've had with a video game since RE4... and honestly.... I've had more fun with it then RE:4.
Them bosses and that level design, Dark is untouchable, especially with the Artorias DLC added in. Game of the gen by a wide margin, imo. It's the most fun I've had with a video game since RE4... and honestly.... I've had more fun with it then RE:4.
You should try playing the game and forming your own opinion because honestly, it was pretty good.
You should play it. A lot of his critiques are dumb.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
I have watched his video series on Zelda and the Team Ico games and agree with most of what he has to say, though.
I'm not. NeoGAF has a proportionately large PS fanbase, and many of the people here started with Demon's Souls.
Generally, the first game in any series you play is the one you like the most.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Much may gel with yours like it did with me watching it after beating DS2...
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
It takes an additional 10 seconds.
Bonfire (level up, dark souls)
Bonfire > warp(takes ~10 seconds on pc) > talk to herald > level up
Return to Nexus or beat a stage > talk to maiden > level
So it's not like you've always been able to level up on the spot whenever you've wanted to in any game. You have to warp back to a bonfire or return to nexus and level up. It's a non-issue in every game.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
This.
Demon's Souls is one of the most atmospheric games I can remember. The building feeling of dread during the descent into both Latria and VoD are some of my most cherished gaming memories.
The boss design in Demon's Souls is also absolutely amazing (except for the dragon god). The armor design is great, the weapon movesets were well realized, the multiplayer components were great. The game still holds up but the obtuse menus and especially the grass farming hurt the game.
Dark Souls feels like a thematic shift more than a major gameplay overhaul, though the gameplay did change substantially. The bonfire design changes the ebb and flow of the game significantly and the interconnected near loadscreen-less world is one of the best gameplay playgrounds I can think of. I love the boss design in this game and the combat just feels so much smoother than the other games in the series, to me. The level design is great, the world design is great, the enemy design is great, the weapon design is great, the npc design is great, the architectural world detail is great, there's just so much to love in this game. Still, the world, while it is more detailed, does not feel as rich as my favorite areas in the first game. On the whole, however, I think this game and Demon's Souls are complementary experiences.
Dark Souls 2 made huge improvements in the realm of multiplayer and interface. The online is easier to get into and offers a lot of variety. Leaving ratings on comments is easy and, as a result, it's even easier to participate in the communication side of the experience. The multiplayer netcode is much improved and you see and interact with more people than you had in previous games. However, for all of the major improvements this game makes it also takes a few steps back. Multiplayer improvements are hampered by a restrictive matchmaking system and substantially worse hit detection.
The interconnected web design to the world of Dark Souls is replaced with a central hub with several "spokes" (each path you can take will lead you along a linear path that ends in a dead end) with the vast majority of areas having a single entry and exit point. The NPCs seem much less lively and never seem to do anything once they come into contact with you and head back to the central hub and this sedentary feeling is not helped by the slow and laborious line delivery and forced 1.5 second gaps between each line of spoken dialog. This game is also much less "fair" than the other games in the series with at least one potential cheap kill that is impossible for a careful player to predict and with a heightened reliance on giving the enemies unfair advantages in the sake of increasing the overall difficulty. I'm also not a fan of how derivative Dark Souls 2's story is to Dark Souls. The number of overt mentions is higher than I expected...though I'm not sure if that is a negative or just a consequence of this being the first direct sequel that the franchise has seen.
Replaying Dark Souls after beating this was a shocking experience as that game is just so much faster and dynamic in every conceivable way.
Anyway, I would have to go with Demon's Souls = Dark Souls > Dark Souls 2
The boss design in Demon's Souls is also absolutely amazing (except for the dragon god). The armor design is great, the weapon movesets were well realized, the multiplayer components were great. The game still holds up but the obtuse menus and especially the grass farming hurt the game.
Dark Souls feels like a thematic shift more than a major gameplay overhaul, though the gameplay did change substantially. The bonfire design changes the ebb and flow of the game significantly and the interconnected near loadscreen-less world is one of the best gameplay playgrounds I can think of. I love the boss design in this game and the combat just feels so much smoother than the other games in the series, to me. The level design is great, the world design is great, the enemy design is great, the weapon design is great, the npc design is great, the architectural world detail is great, there's just so much to love in this game. Still, the world, while it is more detailed, does not feel as rich as my favorite areas in the first game. On the whole, however, I think this game and Demon's Souls are complementary experiences.
Dark Souls 2 made huge improvements in the realm of multiplayer and interface. The online is easier to get into and offers a lot of variety. Leaving ratings on comments is easy and, as a result, it's even easier to participate in the communication side of the experience. The multiplayer netcode is much improved and you see and interact with more people than you had in previous games. However, for all of the major improvements this game makes it also takes a few steps back. Multiplayer improvements are hampered by a restrictive matchmaking system and substantially worse hit detection.
The interconnected web design to the world of Dark Souls is replaced with a central hub with several "spokes" (each path you can take will lead you along a linear path that ends in a dead end) with the vast majority of areas having a single entry and exit point. The NPCs seem much less lively and never seem to do anything once they come into contact with you and head back to the central hub and this sedentary feeling is not helped by the slow and laborious line delivery and forced 1.5 second gaps between each line of spoken dialog. This game is also much less "fair" than the other games in the series with at least one potential cheap kill that is impossible for a careful player to predict and with a heightened reliance on giving the enemies unfair advantages in the sake of increasing the overall difficulty. I'm also not a fan of how derivative Dark Souls 2's story is to Dark Souls. The number of overt mentions is higher than I expected...though I'm not sure if that is a negative or just a consequence of this being the first direct sequel that the franchise has seen.
Replaying Dark Souls after beating this was a shocking experience as that game is just so much faster and dynamic in every conceivable way.
Anyway, I would have to go with Demon's Souls = Dark Souls > Dark Souls 2
Haven't seen either of them, but I suspect he misses the point or is just slightly off as to what the actual problem is. Which seems to be the case in the videos of his that I've watched.
Complaining about minimalism generally will probably see me rolling my eyes.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
Demon's Souls for making King's Field relevant again.
It defined a whole new genre (or at least, re-invented a style 99% of people ignored previously), and maybe most importantly, was SUCCESSFUL. So much was riding on that project, and it hit all the right chords, and now we'll have lots of these games and lots of games are already taking inspiration from them, for the betterment of design.
Brilliant game, thank you for bringing it back.
That said, DS1 and DS2 are both awesome.
I gave a slight edge to DS1 mostly because I liked the lore and mythology better, but DS2 added some great elements like bonfire warping, more streamlined upgrade system, and more zone variety... though it feels a bit more disconnected.
Still, the franchise is 3 for 3 and as long as they take 2-3 years in between, bring it.
It defined a whole new genre (or at least, re-invented a style 99% of people ignored previously), and maybe most importantly, was SUCCESSFUL. So much was riding on that project, and it hit all the right chords, and now we'll have lots of these games and lots of games are already taking inspiration from them, for the betterment of design.
Brilliant game, thank you for bringing it back.
That said, DS1 and DS2 are both awesome.
I gave a slight edge to DS1 mostly because I liked the lore and mythology better, but DS2 added some great elements like bonfire warping, more streamlined upgrade system, and more zone variety... though it feels a bit more disconnected.
Still, the franchise is 3 for 3 and as long as they take 2-3 years in between, bring it.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
I just used that as an example, the critique I mentioned is much more thorough and lists more important things.
Not sure where he complains about minimalism, in the Team Ico videos he applauds it.
Yeah, I wasn't just thinking of the amount of viable options though, but also things like general movement, and especially the 100 little convenience improvements they made. And as you say, stats are a lot more balanced and meaningful.
Of course, some of the increase in viable builds is also due to there simply being much more of everything. A lot more spells (more magic types even) -- I guess this is something which earns DS2 tons of points from me as I always play primarily magic using characters - and more equipment options (power stance, melee weapons that also cast spells).
10 seconds? your PC is slow
But yeah, I never really saw this as an issue. It has the additional advantage that you can't be invaded while leveling up.
Dark > Demon's Souls > Dark 2.
However, I think that a Demon's Souls made now would be vastly superior to both Dark's. The original was just extremely rough around the edges because it was the first game in the series.
In terms of story, setting and atmosphere Demon's is still easily the best. Dark Souls 2 also makes you realize just how fleshed out the Nexus was. Majula, and the NPCs who eventually inhabit it, feel one-dimensional in comparison.
However, I think that a Demon's Souls made now would be vastly superior to both Dark's. The original was just extremely rough around the edges because it was the first game in the series.
In terms of story, setting and atmosphere Demon's is still easily the best. Dark Souls 2 also makes you realize just how fleshed out the Nexus was. Majula, and the NPCs who eventually inhabit it, feel one-dimensional in comparison.
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