Seven Dead, Several Hospitalized in Isla Vista Mass Shooting

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using a body count as a measuring tool isn't really how you go about it either

school violence is a lot more common than people want to admit or believe

I'm just saying, is there really accurate sample data to say that women don't participate in mass school shootings?
Until Virginia Tech, people said only white people did them.
Until Newtown, people said only people in school did them.
Until this, people said rich people never did them.
There just haven't been many mass school shootings, so I don't think there's enough sample data to say that any category of people doesn't participate in them.
 
I'm just saying, is there really accurate sample data to say that women don't participate in mass school shootings?
Until Virginia Tech, people said only white people did them.
Until Newtown, people said only people in school did them.
Until this, people said rich people never did them.

There just haven't been many mass school shootings, so I don't think there's enough sample data to say that any category of people doesn't participate in them.

strong disagree at all of the bolded

i just don't think people care enough to actually look into how common it is on an offday when search engines are clogged with the most recent
 
I'm just saying, is there really accurate sample data to say that women don't participate in mass school shootings?
Until Virginia Tech, people said only white people did them.
Until Newtown, people said only people in school did them.
Until this, people said rich people never did them.
There just haven't been many mass school shootings, so I don't think there's enough sample data to say that any category of people doesn't participate in them.
Here's a sample size of 70. Mass shootings since the 80s.

Perpetrators include one woman. Does that help?
 
It's interesting how many high-achieving and wealthy peers he grew up with, and inevitably compared himself to. One of the kids he mentions in his manifesto is now a pretty high-profile college football player.
 
I'm finding this conversation a little ridiculous. Just looking at some of his manifesto proves how far gone he was. The guy had the emotional intelligence of a child, zero empathy and a seriously warped perspective on people in general. Very different from your average person who suffers from social anxiety and loneliness.

One thing I noticed throughout the whole thing was the absence of the word "man." There was common usage of "boy" when referring to others in his own peer group, but even past the age of childhood he still used it.
 

Well shit.
I'll backtrack and mention that I wasn't really disagreeing with the point, I was more disagreeing with saying that no women do this (which is kind of proven by this, since it does show that one woman has done this). I do agree that in general, men do tend to go on more mass shootings than women, and that it does show that there is something in our culture that leads to that.
 
Well shit.
I'll backtrack and mention that I wasn't really disagreeing with the point, I was more disagreeing with saying that no women do this (which is kind of proven by this, since it does show that one woman has done this). I do agree that in general, men do tend to go on more mass shootings than women, and that it does show that there is something in our culture that leads to that.

When feeling emasculated and powerless, violence is utilized.
 
I'm finding this conversation a little ridiculous. Just looking at some of his manifesto proves how far gone he was. The guy had the emotional intelligence of a child, zero empathy and a seriously warped perspective on people in general. Very different from your average person who suffers from social anxiety and loneliness.

Yeah, this. I think of him as a spoiled child that never really learned to fend for himself and grow up. With no empathy and a worldview largely based on fiction (like movies and videogames), this was always going to end badly. It's just that he was clever enough to be able to inflict a lot of hurt before he killed himself.

Seriously, judging from some of the things I read, this kid was an emotional troglodyte. He had NO CLUE how the world actually works. The only thing he could do was lash out.
 
One thing I noticed throughout the whole thing was the absence of the word "man." There was common usage of "boy" when referring to others in his own peer group, but even past the age of childhood he still used it.
This sounds normal to me. I think I heard boy used more frequently than man at college, although guy was the preferred term.
 
Comparing this thread to the reactions in "#ViolenceIsViolence: Domestic abuse advert Mankind" is quite telling. For all the wrong reasons.

I felt pretty shocked when I saw that on the front-page.

I'm sure it was probably a coincidence it came out now, but it really feels almost like a "see? men are victims of violence too!" response.


It's interesting how many high-achieving and wealthy peers he grew up with, and inevitably compared himself to. One of the kids he mentions in his manifesto is now a pretty high-profile college football player.

Oh, I've been wondering if the people he brought up were actual people, or ones he just made up.
 
I don't know where this thread is going any more, so I'm leaving.

That's a wise decision. It's just a big thread in which people discuss their opinions and personal stories about guns and mental illness and creeps and women haters.

Nothing important will be accomplished. It's just another time-waster on the internet.
 
This sounds normal to me. I think I heard boy used more frequently than man at college, although guy was the preferred term.

I suppose it's more to do with that wish he had to be back in a time when he believed that "life was fair." Why anyone never bothered to tell him otherwise, I will never understand.
Using the words "man" or "woman" may have bothered him, as they would cause him to go back to those feelings of inadequacy and lack of personal growth.

edit: Just a personal interpretation, I am not a professional.
 
I suppose it's more to do with that wish he had to be back in a time when he believed that "life was fair." Why anyone never bothered to tell him otherwise, I will never understand.
Using the words "man" or "woman" may have bothered him, as they would cause him to go back to those feelings of inadequacy and lack of personal growth.

edit: Just a personal interpretation, I am not a professional.
It's probably just how he talks. I almost always heard girl instead of woman from my college classmates, too.
 
Kind of getting back on subject here and I don't want to sound insensitive, but I imagine the parents of the shooter are sick to their stomach to say the least. The heinous act committed, the parents just lost their child and they must be beyond belief on what their child has done and they'll have to live with that for the rest of their lives. The father will probably no longer work in Hollywood. I can't imagine what it would be like to be the parent of a child who just murdered people in cold blood. It can be argued if they didn't raise him better but they, the parents, don't deserve this.

Most of all of course are the victims of Elliot Rogers and their families. Senseless, random death that in no way, shape or form should have ever happened. Their parents will have to suffer nightmares and depression along with those who survived the attacks. If I were in any of their shoes, I'd be throwing up right now.

I don't want to point blame at anyone except the shooter, Rogers but I think somehow the mental health system needs drastic improvements. I admit I don't even know what could be done to improve it but I know that at least some people working within that system really don't seem to show any care towards their patients. Not saying that is the cause of the problem, however.
 
I felt pretty shocked when I saw that on the front-page.

I'm sure it was probably a coincidence it came out now, but it really feels almost like a "see? men are victims of violence too!" response.




Oh, I've been wondering if the people he brought up were actual people, or ones he just made up.

Same here. Its also quite telling how much agreement we have here and how much need about talking about themselves here.
 
very little discussion on the actual mental state of the individual is going on, which i believe is the crux of the situation..

This is an incredibly difficult thing to do, because his manifesto and videos are extremely contradictory on many aspects, and, furthermore, there are certain elements within the manifesto that raise conerns about it being an unreliable source of information.

As Pants states:
The guy had a bit of everything going on. Entitlement complex, narcissism, misogyny, racism, ostracization, superiority complex, isolation, warped world view, misanthropy, jealousy and like 100 other issues. He's like christmas for psychologists
There are so many different aspects that any valid discussion is going to need to simultaneously deal with everything, and how all of them interact. I mean, not only does he have sexist views, but these are tied with his feelings of inadequacy, loneliness, and worthlessness, while simultaneously having a superiority complex wherein he is a divine figure. He has intense hatred for his parents at times, yet later views them as some of the best people in his life. He loves his brother and views him as one of the few individuals he likes, yet wishes to murder him for the potential for success. He's filled with near-paradoxical beliefs and it's incredibly difficult to determine what preceded what, he's incredibly far-gone and very meglomaniacal.

One thing that is made extremely clear early on is that he very much dislikes a lack of control (unpleasant teacher because she wanted him to catch up on material, hated the rules, including the uniform), and is more than willing to engage in petty squabbles, taking satisfaction in lashing out at perceived 'enemies' (satisfaction in not inviting Joey to his party, Keaton Webbler as an somebody he disliked, but not an 'enemy') and acquiring 'vengeance'. Later on, this desire for revenge and suffering obviously increased exponentially, and the 'targets' broadened, going from specific individuals, to types of individuals (ie 'jocks', 'sluts'), to an entire gender. This is obviously tied into his extremely misogynistic views, but everything is tied-into everything as far as his motivations are concerned, it's a storm of intertwining events. What is clear, however, is that even at an early age, mental illness, or at the very least, severe issues, were apparent, as his level of spite and uncomformity extends beyond normal child-like pettiness and into a clear extreme. These word made far worse not only by his lack of empathy (perplexed by James' lack of bother and the view that James was over-reacting to such disturbing comments) contributing to an 'awkwardness'/'quietness', but a severe lack of positive qualities as he is unable to take any satisfaction in the success of others, is paranoid about the motivations of others (skateboarding and his mother), manipulative, and perceives almost everything as a slight against him (killing characters online over passed meetings in spite), even without any actual acknowledgement (splashing, and seriously, he does this so many times for nothing). While certainly things escalated (with further desire for vengeance, even if this example is less extreme than the many, many others), it is absolutely clear that psychiatric services would have been required even with this trait alone (and, in fairness to his parents, they seemed to do so).

Yet his desire for conformity and acceptance made it incredibly difficult, it seems, for psychiatric services to have much of an effect and is what I think is one of the most major issues in his develop, contributing significantly to his loneliness, spitefulness, misogynistic views, parental issues, and desire for wealth. Having moved multiple times, and faced numerous changes to his household, it is very clear that he came from a rather unstable background (that is, the dynamic continuously changed) which seems to have had an effect on his desire to belong, as school constantly changed and remaining in contact with past associates proved difficult, contributing in making him a lonely individual. He thought the cool kids were "obnoxious jerks" yet so desperately desired to be one of them throughout his life, as he abandoned his sense of self in a desire to fit in, something that he still wouldn't be content with as he wanted to be 'the superior gentleman', not only one of the 'cool kids'. As the 'cool' and 'popular' thing to do transitioned from 'skateboarding' to meeting women, he was at a complete loss (due to the mental illness he certainly seemed to face) as to how to go about doing so, continuously blaming others not only for not teaching him how to attract women but also for almost every issue he faced, as he rarely has responsibility in anything he does, in his opinion; there's always somebody worse, somebody who is punishing him.

This, again, ties in with his incredibly unusual inferiority-superiority complex, something that is frankly mystifying. Not only does he feel himself to be the superior gentleman, and a godlike being, deserving of a perfect life (which he displays naivety in thinking the wealthy never worry about anything in their hedonistic lives), but he also views himself as one who felt he had no talents, played up his own 'weirdness'; simply to have some acknowledgement, saw his life as pathetic, and put on a false sense of confidence and vanity to convince himself that he was beautiful and being acknowledged. His viewing of the height of others, and their physical stature is repeatedly mentioned. Similarly, his viewing of blond hair being superior is clear as many important men with blond hair are mentioned, Maddy, his first female friend, had blond hair, he was popular when he dyed his hair blond, has a sexual preference for blondes, his imaginary girlfriend had blond hair, and continuously obsessed over blond women. He's insecure about his race issues, viewing it as different and a barrier to his ability to fit in, but also used it as something to put down others through some of the incredibly racist comments he makes, repeatedly stating the race of people and putting them down for it ("Chance" and "Angel"), and referring repeatedly to heritage. He continuously cries at the slightest provocation and feels embarassment over almost everything. He lacks the self-confidence to speak to women (partly motviated by fear of failure) yet views himself as superior to those that do speak to women. He views himself as such a deity that women, to him, are objectified, simultaneously unworthy of his greatness, and unworthy of rejecting him. He feels as if men are at the mercy of 'evil women', yet feels as if men are superior to women, visible via his clearly misogynistic and sexist views. He feels himself of such divine importance that he is destined to win the lotto every single time he plays at, and feel that another winner is stealing his money, while noting that he is so incapable of doing anything else that he might as well do this, because he would have an equal chance with anything else (and he doesn't want to put in the effort of writing a book, somewhat ironic, for immediate results). He is extremely insecure about his social status having been bullied early on by Connor over his area, yet never wants for anything as all is paid for by his relatives and he lives lavishly, ignorant that he is wealthy. He felt he had magical powers, and could will a win of the lottery, while recognising the delusional nature of this thought. He wanted money to acquire women, believing they were that shallow and attracted to status, but associated speaking to his female therapist like seeing a prostitute as it ultimately made him feel like a loser (implying using money would too, perhaps).

He continuously isolates himself (with games and also due to his vow), and laments over his isolation, trying to break free while not understanding that he has put himself in the position. His relationship with his parents is extremely unstable, clearly loving his mother, despite hating her for her refusal to marry a wealthy man, something which he feels is selfish, but still ends up calling her constantly for support. His father fluctuates between feeling he's never present to somebody who persecuted him by abandoning him for his step-mother, to a symbol of a successful man in acquiring a girlfriend so quickly, despite (Elliot) hating her. He claims he mutes his feelings as he needs them, yet continuously argues, flees from, berates, and cries to them. He feels he's not properly being recognised and that his brother owes him his life, while thinking he loves him. He things he needs to brag to his brother or he won't be respected. He constantly lies and manipulates them for additional items (laptop, money) and goals (removing his sister's boyfriend from the equation) and makes unreasonable requests (bedroom in his fathers house). He gets relatively free-reign yet complains for some of the rules imposed by his step-mother (his side of the story paints her as a cruel person, but I'm guessing this is far from reality given his delusional nature).

I really cannot go on any further; this, already, is skimming over far too much and making the situation far shallower than it actually is; every point mentioned has numerous conflicting and relatable points contained in his video and his manifesto and should be explored more. There is, absolutely no doubt, that he is a sexist, and that his views are absolutely abhorrent, objectifying all of those around him. There is no doubt that his vehemently spiteful nature left him an individual that nobody would want to be friends with. There is no doubt that it is tragic that somebody could view events in such a sad manner, feeling as if everything was going against him (yes, even if that person is an immoral individual, he suffered intensely, rightly or wrongly is not my place to say). There is no doubt that he needed even more psychiatric help (and even then if anything could have actaully helped him is unclear). There is, finally, no doubt we should not have some degree of distrust in his manifesto, as he himself states he considered, and enjoyed, writing fiction, typically revolving around victimising and empowering himself. So while it is possible to glance over his state of mind, I am of the opinion that the level of depth needed to do so adequately makes it a less-feasible thing to do than tackling the widespread sexism that exists in society, which can be discussed in 'lighter' posts.

Kind of getting back on subject here and I don't want to sound insensitive, but I imagine the parents of the shooter are sick to their stomach to say the least. The heinous act committed, the parents just lost their child and they must be beyond belief on what their child has done and they'll have to live with that for the rest of their lives. The father will probably no longer work in Hollywood. I can't imagine what it would be like to be the parent of a child who just murdered people in cold blood. It can be argued if they didn't raise him better but they, the parents, don't deserve this.

Most of all of course are the victims of Elliot Rogers and their families. Senseless, random death that in no way, shape or form should have ever happened. Their parents will have to suffer nightmares and depression along with those who survived the attacks. If I were in any of their shoes, I'd be throwing up right now.

I don't want to point blame at anyone except the shooter, Rogers but I think somehow the mental health system needs drastic improvements. I admit I don't even know what could be done to improve it but I know that at least some people working within that system really don't seem to show any care towards their patients. Not saying that is the cause of the problem, however.
Indeed; I think, from their perspective, one of the most tragic things is that they appeared to do everything right; that is, he seems to have been in touch with psychiatric services and counsellors since was at least thirteen, they tried different approaches to his education, they tried giving him what he wanted, they tried encouraging him to continue his education, tried to get him further help, contacted police (allegedly) when they saw the videos, friends tried to talk him down, and it still wasn't enough. Given how far gone he was, and how much support he seemed to have received from the mental health services, it really is hard to pinpoint where exactly this could have been prevented.

The victims' relatives, are, as you've mentioned, obviously the most likely to feel the greatest anger and sadness, having been subjected to a 'senseless' attack. It's difficult to imagine how one copes after such an incident, and learning that a loved one was one of the unfortunate victims.
 
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I don't want to point blame at anyone except the shooter, Rogers but I think somehow the mental health system needs drastic improvements. I admit I don't even know what could be done to improve it but I know that at least some people working within that system really don't seem to show any care towards their patients. Not saying that is the cause of the problem, however.

I think a good start would be to have better early (childhood) detection, so that issues can be worked through and dealt with before they balloon and become really hard to deal with. Elliot Rodgers was seeing professionals, but perhaps if this had started earlier it could have worked out better.

But really, I think the big obstacle here is the stigma against mental illness, and the idea that getting help is in any way embarrassing or shameful.
 
very interesting. thanks for the link. makes you wonder if it more a biological (testosterone) or sociological factor that puts men at such a higher rate of committing these crimes. prob a combo of both?

Based on nothing more than my gut feeling, it seems to me like men are more prone to "solve" their problems head on. Using violence if necessary, because aggressive behavior, that's what we are good at.

Women are physically weaker, so they have to try to solve their problems by using their (on average) superior social skills.

Most "problems" nowadays are social in nature, so you might say women have an edge.
 
Just saw this linked on another forum...you guys weren't joking about how men are taking this guy's side.

Disgusting. I find it ridiculous how it starts out like a seemingly good article ("don't give him attention!", "people shouldn't use this to advance their personal agendas"), before quickly blaming women for bashing men.

Fuck men. I'm a man myself and right now I hate all men too. :/

That blog post is so pathetic. He says it shouldn't be used to score ideological points, then goes on and attempts to score ideological points himself. Like how could you be so dense?
 
That blog post is so pathetic. He says it shouldn't be used to score ideological points, then goes on and attempts to score ideological points himself. Like how could you be so dense?

People seem to agree with it, sadly enough.

I saw it linked on another forum by users who came into the thread and immediately started complaining about how all feminists think men are like this killer. I mean, I get it in a general sense that no one likes to be feel guilty, although I think feeling guilty is GOOD when it comes to changing yourself, but to just barge into thread about a tragic event and immediately lash out at feminists just proves that our culture helped push this guy closer to his breaking point.
 
Indeed; I think, from their perspective, one of the most tragic things is that they appeared to do everything right; that is, he seems to have been in touch with psychiatric services and counsellors since was at least thirteen, they tried different approaches to his education, they tried giving him what he wanted, they tried encouraging him to continue his education, tried to get him further help, contacted police (allegedly) when they saw the videos, friends tried to talk him down, and it still wasn't enough. Given how far gone he was, and how much support he seemed to have received from the mental health services, it really is hard to pinpoint where exactly this could have been prevented.

If the manifesto is accurate with respect to his parents, they seem to have been dealing with him to the best of their ability. They did not neglect him or his problems, nor did they fail to see that he was having a tough time. This is the scariest aspect of this whole story to me: even if you do a fairly good job as a parent you might end up with a monster.
 
Sorry for the essay. This post isn't about Rodger, who was clearly mentally disturbed.

I watched that "Shy Boys: IRL" documentary mentioned in an earlier post and it made me sad.

Be fit. Be strong. Be physically attractive and socially dominant. Be sexually active. That's what makes you a man. It's a narrative that has been reinforced for thousands of years. And for a long time it has been true. How could a small society survive without people having sex? Or without strong leaders to ensure the survival of a group? There's so much pressure to live up to the narrative. So much pressure. Your value to society depends on your ability to survive and pass your genes to your offspring. The message is the same today, just packaged in magazine ads and the unwritten whispers of gender roles. We don't realise how unbearable the pressure is, only because we've become accustomed to it.

And what do we do with a man who doesn't make the grade? We outcast him. We ridicule him. He makes forum posts and videos asking why girls are attracted to "bad boys" and we make fun of him. It doesn't make sense to him that people who are mean to girls can win their favour. He has been affectionate to the girls he desires, and he's always thought that being nice to people would make them nice to him and girls would eventually see him as a romantic partner. Surely something would go my way, he thinks. Surely there's some reward for putting up with all this rejection and heartbreak. One day I'll meet someone who will make me happy. I deserve to be happy for being lonely for this long.

At this point he's not entitled or misogynistic, he's just confused and desperate. No one ever taught him this stuff. His mother just said "be yourself" and his father just told him to use a condom. His friends tell him he needs to find a girl, but they're laughing behind his back that he's still a virgin. His parents are wondering if he's gay and in the closet. He's in high school and everyone is telling him he should have lost his virginity by now. The magazines and billboards are full of so many happy couples telling him all about the person he has to be to have any value. Already he feels like society hates him. He feels useless and inadequate and all he .

And that's how misogyny can start. The guys in the documentary are pitiful, and I mean that in the original sense that they deserve pity. They've been rejected not only by girls, but by society. I hate reading the comments on videos like that, and the Reddit posts bullying them on /r/cringe. People are so quick to judge, and brand them instantly as nothing but misogynists, and ridicule and shame them to gain internet points. Yes, their views are warped, but have you thought about why? Have you thought that maybe they might be victims too? Victims of a society that creates a vision of masculinity that is impossible for you to live up to, and then hates you for not achieving it.

These guys need help, not hate.
 
Sorry for the essay. This post isn't about Rodger, who was clearly mentally disturbed.

I watched that "Shy Boys: IRL" documentary mentioned in an earlier post and it made me sad.

Be fit. Be strong. Be physically attractive and socially dominant. Be sexually active. That's what makes you a man. It's a narrative that has been reinforced for thousands of years. And for a long time it has been true. How could a small society survive without people having sex? Or without strong leaders to ensure the survival of a group? There's so much pressure to live up to the narrative. So much pressure. Your value to society depends on your ability to survive and pass your genes to your offspring. The message is the same today, just packaged in Hollywood films and magazine ads. We don't realise how unbearable the pressure is, only because we've become accustomed to it.

And what do we do with a man who doesn't make the grade? We outcast him. We ridicule him. He makes forum posts and videos asking why girls are attracted to "bad boys" and we make fun of him. It doesn't make sense to him that people who are mean to girls can win their favour. He has been affectionate to the girls he desires, and he's always thought that being nice to people would make them nice to him and girls would eventually see him as a romantic partner. Surely something would go my way, he thinks. Surely there's some reward for putting up with all this rejection and heartbreak. One day I'll meet someone who will make me happy. I deserve to be happy for being lonely for this long.

At this point he's not entitled or misogynistic, he's just confused and desperate. No one ever taught him this stuff. His mother just said "be yourself" and his father just told him to use a condom. His friends tell him he needs to find a girl, but they're laughing behind his back that he's still a virgin. His parents are wondering if he's gay and in the closet. He's in high school and everyone is telling him he should have lost his virginity by now. The magazines and billboards are full of so many happy couples telling him all about the person he has to be to have any value. Already he feels like society hates him. He feels useless and inadequate and all he .

And that's how misogyny can start. The guys in the documentary are pitiful, and I mean that in the original sense that they deserve pity. They've been rejected not only by girls, but by society. I hate reading the comments on videos like that, and the Reddit posts bullying them on /r/cringe. People are so quick to judge, and brand them instantly as nothing but misogynists, and ridicule and shame them to gain internet points. Yes, their views are warped, but have you thought about why? Have you thought that maybe they might be victims too? Victims of a society that creates a vision of masculinity that is impossible for you to live up to, and then hates you for not achieving it.

These guys need help, not hate.
Notice you create them into misunderstood heroes without any evidence that they should be treated like one.

Is there a problem with feminine gay men killing people? Be careful that you're not just making excuses instead of trying to raise awareness.
 
Sorry for the essay. This post isn't about Rodger, who was clearly mentally disturbed.

I watched that "Shy Boys: IRL" documentary mentioned in an earlier post and it made me sad.

Be fit. Be strong. Be physically attractive and socially dominant. Be sexually active. That's what makes you a man. It's a narrative that has been reinforced for thousands of years. And for a long time it has been true. How could a small society survive without people having sex? Or without strong leaders to ensure the survival of a group? There's so much pressure to live up to the narrative. So much pressure. Your value to society depends on your ability to survive and pass your genes to your offspring. The message is the same today, just packaged in magazine ads and the unwritten whispers of gender roles. We don't realise how unbearable the pressure is, only because we've become accustomed to it.

And what do we do with a man who doesn't make the grade? We outcast him. We ridicule him. He makes forum posts and videos asking why girls are attracted to "bad boys" and we make fun of him. It doesn't make sense to him that people who are mean to girls can win their favour. He has been affectionate to the girls he desires, and he's always thought that being nice to people would make them nice to him and girls would eventually see him as a romantic partner. Surely something would go my way, he thinks. Surely there's some reward for putting up with all this rejection and heartbreak. One day I'll meet someone who will make me happy. I deserve to be happy for being lonely for this long.

At this point he's not entitled or misogynistic, he's just confused and desperate. No one ever taught him this stuff. His mother just said "be yourself" and his father just told him to use a condom. His friends tell him he needs to find a girl, but they're laughing behind his back that he's still a virgin. His parents are wondering if he's gay and in the closet. He's in high school and everyone is telling him he should have lost his virginity by now. The magazines and billboards are full of so many happy couples telling him all about the person he has to be to have any value. Already he feels like society hates him. He feels useless and inadequate and all he .

And that's how misogyny can start. The guys in the documentary are pitiful, and I mean that in the original sense that they deserve pity. They've been rejected not only by girls, but by society. I hate reading the comments on videos like that, and the Reddit posts bullying them on /r/cringe. People are so quick to judge, and brand them instantly as nothing but misogynists, and ridicule and shame them to gain internet points. Yes, their views are warped, but have you thought about why? Have you thought that maybe they might be victims too? Victims of a society that creates a vision of masculinity that is impossible for you to live up to, and then hates you for not achieving it.

These guys need help, not hate.

I disagree with basically all of this.
 
Guys, and I mean my male fellas... right here, right now we are talking about a murderer and his victims. Nothing else. He murdered people because he hated women. He rejected them. Looked down to them. Saw them as objects.
If you start talking about "but we creeps are rejected, so please understand", you are defending him. You are saying you are like him. If you ever wondered why female Gaffers feel uncomfortable here, or women around you... here is your answer.
And you know what, it doesn't have to be. Social anxiety is normal. Casanova is the exception, not the rule. We fall, we fail. All of us. But you are not him. You still can make the right choices. So show some fucking decency and leave it out.

Understanding how he felt emotionally about being alone doesn't mean you agree with him killing anybody. Anyway. I don't think i want to post here anymore. I still think none of you truly get the effect of being without some type of intimacy has on a person. Is it possible to live life without it? Ummm yea. But that's besides the point.

Nice post BurnOutBrighter. Prepare for people to disagree with you.
 
Sorry for the essay. This post isn't about Rodger, who was clearly mentally disturbed.

I watched that "Shy Boys: IRL" documentary mentioned in an earlier post and it made me sad.

Be fit. Be strong. Be physically attractive and socially dominant. Be sexually active. That's what makes you a man. It's a narrative that has been reinforced for thousands of years. And for a long time it has been true. How could a small society survive without people having sex? Or without strong leaders to ensure the survival of a group? There's so much pressure to live up to the narrative. So much pressure. Your value to society depends on your ability to survive and pass your genes to your offspring. The message is the same today, just packaged in Hollywood films and magazine ads. We don't realise how unbearable the pressure is, only because we've become accustomed to it.

And what do we do with a man who doesn't make the grade? We outcast him. We ridicule him. He makes forum posts and videos asking why girls are attracted to "bad boys" and we make fun of him. It doesn't make sense to him that people who are mean to girls can win their favour. He has been affectionate to the girls he desires, and he's always thought that being nice to people would make them nice to him and girls would eventually see him as a romantic partner. Surely something would go my way, he thinks. Surely there's some reward for putting up with all this rejection and heartbreak. One day I'll meet someone who will make me happy. I deserve to be happy for being lonely for this long.

At this point he's not entitled or misogynistic, he's just confused and desperate. No one ever taught him this stuff. His mother just said "be yourself" and his father just told him to use a condom. His friends tell him he needs to find a girl, but they're laughing behind his back that he's still a virgin. His parents are wondering if he's gay and in the closet. He's in high school and everyone is telling him he should have lost his virginity by now. The magazines and billboards are full of so many happy couples telling him all about the person he has to be to have any value. Already he feels like society hates him. He feels useless and inadequate and all he .

And that's how misogyny can start. The guys in the documentary are pitiful, and I mean that in the original sense that they deserve pity. They've been rejected not only by girls, but by society. I hate reading the comments on videos like that, and the Reddit posts bullying them on /r/cringe. People are so quick to judge, and brand them instantly as nothing but misogynists, and ridicule and shame them to gain internet points. Yes, their views are warped, but have you thought about why? Have you thought that maybe they might be victims too? Victims of a society that creates a vision of masculinity that is impossible for you to live up to, and then hates you for not achieving it.

These guys need help, not hate.
He killed 6 people. He wrote how women should be slaves. If he was Muslim he would be called a terrorist and not mentally ill. His views are closest to Taliban. I've never met a person who was as terrible of a person as this man. Nothing would help him it wasn't a matter of if but when this guy was going to kill. Reading that manifesto he comes across as pure evil
 
all you straight men need to realise that language like "he needed to work on his game instead," i.e. learn to control/manipulate women so as to not spurn his sexual advances, is just perpetuating the same sexist bullshit that led to these people dying.

that is exactly the mentality that drove him to these murderous and misogynistic extremes. if even now we can't talk about sex/relationships with genuinely mutualistic language what hope is there ffs

The same thing could be said to the casual virgin shaming I have seen from Devolution, Count Dookake and co.
 
Understanding how he felt emotionally about being alone doesn't mean you agree with him killing anybody. Anyway. I don't think i want to post here anymore. I still think none of you truly get the effect of being without some type of intimacy has on a person. Is it possible to live life without it? Ummm yea. But that's besides the point.
Part of the problem is, this isn't about you. As people have said already, there are places you can go (including this board) for help and support. But this is a thread discussing six human beings whose lives were violently cut short, and the criminal who perpetrated this disgusting act.
 
A year to write that manifesto. His pua hate and bodybuilding showed he had these thoughts earlier. We aren't talking about a good guy here. Mental illness wasn't what he was going through
 
Sorry for the essay. This post isn't about Rodger, who was clearly mentally disturbed.

I watched that "Shy Boys: IRL" documentary mentioned in an earlier post and it made me sad.

Be fit. Be strong. Be physically attractive and socially dominant. Be sexually active. That's what makes you a man. It's a narrative that has been reinforced for thousands of years. And for a long time it has been true. How could a small society survive without people having sex? Or without strong leaders to ensure the survival of a group? There's so much pressure to live up to the narrative. So much pressure. Your value to society depends on your ability to survive and pass your genes to your offspring. The message is the same today, just packaged in magazine ads and the unwritten whispers of gender roles. We don't realise how unbearable the pressure is, only because we've become accustomed to it.

And what do we do with a man who doesn't make the grade? We outcast him. We ridicule him. He makes forum posts and videos asking why girls are attracted to "bad boys" and we make fun of him. It doesn't make sense to him that people who are mean to girls can win their favour. He has been affectionate to the girls he desires, and he's always thought that being nice to people would make them nice to him and girls would eventually see him as a romantic partner. Surely something would go my way, he thinks. Surely there's some reward for putting up with all this rejection and heartbreak. One day I'll meet someone who will make me happy. I deserve to be happy for being lonely for this long.

At this point he's not entitled or misogynistic, he's just confused and desperate. No one ever taught him this stuff. His mother just said "be yourself" and his father just told him to use a condom. His friends tell him he needs to find a girl, but they're laughing behind his back that he's still a virgin. His parents are wondering if he's gay and in the closet. He's in high school and everyone is telling him he should have lost his virginity by now. The magazines and billboards are full of so many happy couples telling him all about the person he has to be to have any value. Already he feels like society hates him. He feels useless and inadequate and all he .

And that's how misogyny can start. The guys in the documentary are pitiful, and I mean that in the original sense that they deserve pity. They've been rejected not only by girls, but by society. I hate reading the comments on videos like that, and the Reddit posts bullying them on /r/cringe. People are so quick to judge, and brand them instantly as nothing but misogynists, and ridicule and shame them to gain internet points. Yes, their views are warped, but have you thought about why? Have you thought that maybe they might be victims too? Victims of a society that creates a vision of masculinity that is impossible for you to live up to, and then hates you for not achieving it.

These guys need help, not hate.

Sorry but these people are not "victims" in any sense of the word. Society doesn't hate you because society doesn't give a fuck about you. This has been a truth for ages; people care more about how they're percieved by others than they actually are percieved. "You're your own worst enemy" is a saying for a reason.

There are so many men who are not the epitome of a "man" in the sense you're describing who are in relationships with women. The problem with many people is that they have unrealistic expectations and standards when it comes to the opposite sex and have this warped idea of "If I'm nice, she'll date me."

"nice" ends up being "act like a friend, but in reality I want to be more but I don't want to tell you because you're going to reject me and I can't handle rejection, as such I'll continue to be "nice" and you'll notice me and you'll tell me how you feel, we'll fall in love and live happily ever after".

Reality doesn't work that way, why do "bad boys" get girls? Because they probably told the girl how they felt about them regardless or not she's going to reject them.

You've written basically a bunch of excuses to be honest.

Be physically attractive: That's an excuse. Besides by whose standard exactly?
Be fit; Another excuse.
be strong; Another excuse.
Be sexually active; complete bullshit or else all men would be single since at some point all of us were virgins with no sexual experience with the opposite sex.

You don't need to be any of those to be considered a "man" let alone to get a girlfriend.

The problem is with the person and how they see themselves. There are many people in the dating thread who have realized this simple truth and have worked on improving how they see themselves. If you see yourself as shit and worthless, why in the hell would anyone let alone a woman see you as anything else? Society and women don't owe these people anything.
 
Notice you create them into misunderstood heroes without any evidence that they should be treated like one.

Is there a problem with feminine gay men killing people? Be careful that you're not just making excuses instead of trying to raise awareness.

He killed 6 people. He wrote how women should be slaves.

My first sentence clearly stated that I'm not talking about Rodger. I'm talking about one of the many tangents that this thread has gone off to.

If you want me to be perfectly clear: I condemn Rodger's actions. He made a choice to murder people and that is despicable.
 
Part of the problem is, this isn't about you. As people have said already, there are places you can go (including this board) for help and support. But this is a thread discussing six human beings whose lives were violently cut short, and the criminal who perpetrated this disgusting act.

Enough Gaffers made this thread about themselves, because he resonates with them. They can feel with him. They care more about their rejected egos, than about the victims. Gaf was never scarier.
 
And what do we do with a man who doesn't make the grade? We outcast him. We ridicule him. He makes forum posts and videos asking why girls are attracted to "bad boys" and we make fun of him. It doesn't make sense to him that people who are mean to girls can win their favour. He has been affectionate to the girls he desires, and he's always thought that being nice to people would make them nice to him and girls would eventually see him as a romantic partner. Surely something would go my way, he thinks. Surely there's some reward for putting up with all this rejection and heartbreak. One day I'll meet someone who will make me happy. I deserve to be happy for being lonely for this long.

At this point he's not entitled or misogynistic, he's just confused and desperate.

Actually, the picture you paint is of a person who is all of the above. Viewing sex and relationships as "rewards" for being nice or for suffering is entitlement and is misogynistic.

Your point on there being a lot of pressure on men to conform to a certain image is well taken, though. I also agree that these people need help -- I'm just not sure what form that help would take. Reading all this MRA and incel stuff today has really opened my eyes to how insidious a problem this really is. It's frankly terrifying, and I'm a dude.
 
My first sentence clearly stated that I'm not talking about Rodger. I'm talking about one of the many tangents that this thread has gone off to.

If you want me to be perfectly clear: I condemn Rodger's actions. He made a choice to murder people and that is despicable.
Then why project yourself and others into this monster? Weird place to write at length about this.
 
if you find that you sympathize more with the killer than his victims, if your personal narrative aligns more with a murderer than the innocents he slew: you need help. take the opportunity to seek it out.
 
Enough Gaffers made this thread about themselves, because he resonates with them. They can feel with him. They care more about their rejected egos, than about the victims. Gaf was never scarier.

You are assuming quite a lot. Who said they care more about themselves than the victims?

It goes without saying that this is a tragedy. Failure to reiterate this fact doesn't constitute a lack of compassion for the victims.

From what I've seen, they are talking about themselves to give insight, not fuel their ego.
 
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