Super Smash Bros. for 3DS & Wii U Thread 8: Put mii in, coach

Mewtwo's final smash is making everyone forget about him and thus we will never think he has been confirmed.
 
Harro said:
1402584866-rdly0620.gif
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#dead
 
Renta said:
I'm pretty sure Ness, C. Falcon, and Jiggs are all in. Most likely won't be revealed ubtil the game's launch. Sakurai made a comment about how Luigi got an exception to being revealed before launch because of the year of Luigi. Besides, we've seen the Franklin Badge already in one of the screenshots to the WiiU version.
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Thanks
 
R0ckman said:
Would Sakurai consider any concerns via tweets? I'm sending one (YES, in Japanese) but since it's limited to like 100 characters I want to make sure I nail my concerns.
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It's likely not possible to list your full set of especially detailed complaints in a single tweet. (I'm not privy to Japanese syntax and whatnot so I could be surprised) I'd say prioritize the most important problem or two in a broad sense. You could of course send multiples with additional complaints, though I imagine a single tweet will have more impact.

Harro said:
1402584866-rdly0620.gif
Click to expand...

Perfection.
 
BGBW said:
Most believe the first leak because of Wii Fit Trainer because no one predicted her. They are just sceptical of the second because they don't want to fall for the trap of because they believe the first the second must be true.

People were predicting/wishing for a Rhythm Tengoku rep however.
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Nobody predicted Greninja though. Very few people predicted an XY character.
 
Revven said:
This is the kind of shit that's toxic. Stop it, you're not being any better than the people who are being overreactionary.

Look, let me explain this again: it has nothing to do with making the game like Melee. Melee is just the closest, no, the pinnacle example of a competitive game in the Smash series. People compare to it because they really don't know what to describe in it that makes it so good for competition. They just use it as an example because it's quick and easy. Oh and I should clarify, by they I mean the low-mid level players that are shitposting on smashboards and r/smashbros. The people who actually compete at tournaments could describe it very easily, describe what they'd want out of Smash 4 without using the word 'Melee'.

Let me tell you what makes Melee competitive: movement options out the wazoo. Your dash/run can be stopped by crouching, this gives you access to both your down smash and down tilt as approach options. From a crouch, you could then switch to standing instead and use a different tilt or even a different smash attack. That is just one example of the kind of movement option that makes Melee what it is. And that, again, is not even wavedashing. It is an intuitive option that even a casual player can benefit from knowing, just as much as a casual player benefits from being able to shield the end of their run to gain access to their grounded moves.

And I guarantee you that run -> crouch was intentionally programmed in Melee, just like run -> shield works in all the games. It's something you can do out of your run just like you can do an Usmash out of your run with the C-stick. It doesn't hurt casual players at all to have this option in the game yet Sakurai took it out.

All people want are intuitive, non-glitch, movement options. And an ability to use those options to expand the game at a higher level -- whether that's through combos, mind games, etc etc. That is seriously it. And if you somehow have qualms with people being able to crouch out of their run, you have some serious issues on this.

Again, that is just one example of a movement option. Another example that wouldn't hurt casual players is one that exists in all platformers: momentum being carried from your run into your jump. What that does is it allows characters with faster running speeds to leap across the stage to approach a character. What happens right now in Brawl and seemingly Smash 4 is this momentum is not carried and therefore your character essentially is awkwardly moving in the air as if they just jumped from a standing position. It is logical physics, as well, because when you run in any platformer (hell, even Mario games) you carry the momentum from your jump. It was amazing to have this in Melee and not just because it was in Melee but because every character could make use of it and it helped them in various ways to put up an offense on someone.

But it seems to be absent from Smash 4, again. Taking that particular option out only hurts characters that have speed built-in with them in mind such as Captain Falcon, Fox, Sonic, etc etc. You might say that's a good thing but again look at how Captain Falcon was in Brawl. He was terrible. A large part of that was because of the lack of this option existing in Brawl. Secondly, it might appear good because it makes the fast characters on the same playing field as the slower characters but in actuality the slower characters could make use of it this just as much. Characters like Mario, DK, and even Ganondorf had really good approach options just from this physics-related option that was in the game. And you can even see how they benefit from this in Project M, as PM re-added it.

If you have zero understanding of what makes competitive Smash, you shouldn't shit on people who do. There are definitely people who are overreacting and expressing themselves on gut reactions because they really don't want a game that will likely not advance the community forward. People want to like and play this game seriously but they can't if the game doesn't offer these kinds of options and from what people played and saw, the options aren't there. It's frustrating to, once again, not get heard from the developer of the series you love. You think after all these years, with so much tournament footage available on Youtube, they would have an understanding of what the competitive players are looking for: intuitive movement options.

I hope this post has been enlightening to some degree because man, I am so tired of posts like the above. It is not healthy for the entire community whatsoever. If you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all.
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This is such a good post. I appreciate the fact that you went out of your where to refute some of the rampant strawmans/misconceptions about the competitive smash community.
 
Yeah, we have seen some little things to believe that Ice Climbers, Captain Falcon, and Ness are in. I am also inclined to believe the blurry picture that shows Ganondorf.

Also, the reason why it stated "character from X/Y" is because the roster was made before X/Y development finished. No clue how they decided on Greninja, but I am glad they did.
 
Kor of Memory said:
I remember seeing his name thrown around quite a bit, but I also remember a lot of various X/Y pokes being offered as suggestions. I personally was hoping for Sylveon, as I wanted a new quadruped to fight with.
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Considering they've gone out of there way to make sure all characters are standing up right I doubt we're ever going to see a natural quadruped fight like Ivysaur anymore

TheSlySoul said:
Yeah, we have seen some little things to believe that Ice Climbers, Captain Falcon, and Ness are in. I am also inclined to believe the blurry picture that shows Ganondorf.

Also, the reason why it stated "character from X/Y" is because the roster was made before X/Y development finished. No clue how they decided on Greninja, but I am glad they did.
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Woah woah woah back up what pic?
 
PK Gaming said:
This is such a good post. I appreciate the fact that you went out of your where to refute some of the rampant strawmans/misconceptions about the competitive smash community.
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I think so too. Really glad that someone took the time to articulate everything. Between that post and the thing on reddit, I think the view point is pretty well stated now.

KHlover said:
Yeeeees, goodbye useless and annoying feature. Hope you'll be replaced by something better *_*
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I liked it at first, but some time I'd have to say I agree with this. Every once in a while you have that one friend come over who just thinks it's too hilarious to totally obstruct the screen.

It's a nice way to make sure your c-stick is working correctly BEFORE starting the match though.
 
Caladrius said:
It's likely not possible to list your full set of complaints in a single tweet. (I'm not privy to Japanese syntax and whatnot so I could be surprised) I'd say prioritize the most important problem or two.

Such as “After playing the demo, I feel that movement options could be more flexible and there should be less input delay after using moves.”

You could of course send multiples with additional complaints, though I imagine a single tweet will have more impact.
Click to expand...

At this point, I feel like we should just have someone create a universally agreed upon short list of enhancements and have a big twitter RT campaign or have someone Nintendo:

Movement:

- Increase in the window of time to dash back and forward
- Ability to cancel dash animations into crouches
- Ability to keep all forward momentum when jumping out of a dash

Offense

- Cast wide reduction in landing lag frames when using aerials close to the ground
- Cast wide reduction on cool down frames after throws for easier followups

This should be enough right? Just package it together in a nice text file link in a tweet with #MakeTheBestSmash or some encouraging thing like that, maybe with an eloquent foreword and let it out.
 
Azure J said:
This should be enough right? Just package it together in a nice text file link in a tweet with #MakeTheBestSmash or some encouraging thing like that, maybe with an eloquent foreword and let it out.
Click to expand...

I think that's more than enough to show support for this game, rather than complain about it

these approaches are good, the aerial landing lag is some of the things I care the most, I wish they could, one or another, get back L-Cancel or reduce landing lag on all aerials, I think the throw recovery frames were to prevent chain grabs, but then again, it hurts follow ups a lot rather than help

#MakeTheBestSmash
 
Azure J said:
At this point, I feel like we should just have someone create a universally agreed upon short list of enhancements and have a big twitter RT campaign or have someone Nintendo:

Movement:

- Increase in the window of time to dash back and forward
- Ability to cancel dash animations into crouches
- Ability to keep all forward momentum when jumping out of a dash

Offense

- Cast wide reduction in landing lag frames when using aerials close to the ground
- Cast wide reduction on cool down frames after throws for easier followups

This should be enough right? Just package it together in a nice text file link in a tweet with #MakeTheBestSmash or some encouraging thing like that, maybe with an eloquent foreword and let it out.
Click to expand...

I'm actually on board with this one. Short, simple, focused.

I don't think these changes have much detriment anyway, especially the run-jump momentum. That'd do so much for characters like sonic.
 
Kind of dissaointed Sakurai used the Animal Crossing GC title theme fir the victory music. Should have totally been the oiriginal GC town tune. Sakurai, step your game up son!

Anyone find out Kirby's villager kirby hat?
 
R0ckman said:
Would Sakurai consider any concerns via tweets? I'm sending one (YES, in Japanese) but since it's limited to like 100 characters I want to make sure I nail my concerns.
Click to expand...

Maybe miiverse is a better option?

And as I said before, this has to be painted as something that affects both casual and competitive play (which in fact, does). If it gets big as serious casual and competitive concern, like other stuff has (the same-sex relationship issue in tomodachi life comes to mind), maybe it has a chance of getting to Nintendo's ear.
 
So if DLC is true and the SAL leak is all the newcomers (for convenience lets ignore potential cut vets) rank the 5 characters you'd most want to see for DLC either from new IP not seen in Smash or characters from series already in the game

1. Inkling (Splatoon)
2. Isaac (Golden Sun)
3. Ridley (Metroid)
4. Blaziken (Pokemon)
5. Captain Fleming (Codename S.T.E.A.M.)
 
ErrorMacro said:
Maybe miiverse is a better option?

And as I said before, this has to be painted as something that affects both casual and competitive play (which in fact, does). If it gets big as serious casual and competitive concern, like other stuff has (the same-sex relationship issue in tomodachi life comes to mind), maybe it has a chance of getting to Nintendo's ear.
Click to expand...
But that would be the problem wouldn't it?

By its very nature it probably wouldn't ever be that big because that many people don't have a vested interest. Are you going to convince Polygon, Kotaku and IGN to ask Nintendo reps for interviews on why they should change Smash 4 to make it appeal more to the competitive community and make a whole social media outrage scandal of it?
 
so I've been thinking about the complaints about the air attack lag.. and really thinking about it I disagree that making the game more defensive is a bad thing for competition.

Everyone loves to see a 56-3 football game...
Everyone loves to see a 1:30 KO boxing/MMA match
Everyone loves to see a 11-2 baseball game

The key to all of those is "once in a while". For the most part most sports enthusiasts would rather see a 13-10 football game with great defense keeping back a great offense. Or see a good boxing match with mix of offense and defense that comes down to decision. All of these come down to a tilt more towards defense than offense.

by putting the lag on air attacks it stops constant and unrelenting offense from both sides and makes the matches more interesting to watch in general.

of course TOO MUCH defense is a problem. 3-0 football games are no fun to watch. but I don't see the lag as eliminating all offense, just "punishing" (as others have put it) the primary mechanic contributing to most unrelenting offenses.

We'll see. I get the frustration. Absolutely. It's how the top competitors have been playing since Melee and something they didn't want to change to in Brawl. HOWEVER all that ended up doing was manifesting itself in Melee being (unofficially) used in tournaments. If Nintendo can actually foster a healthy SSB tournament scene, I really think that change could go down as "different, but not really worse". But yeah... if Nintendo does make the game more defensive AND doesn't really take steps to foster a healthy competitive scene.. then the tournaments will just continue to use Melee or PM.
 
Azure J said:
At this point, I feel like we should just have someone create a universally agreed upon short list of enhancements and have a big twitter RT campaign or have someone Nintendo:

Movement:

- Increase in the window of time to dash back and forward
- Ability to cancel dash animations into crouches
- Ability to keep all forward momentum when jumping out of a dash

Offense

- Cast wide reduction in landing lag frames when using aerials close to the ground
- Cast wide reduction on cool down frames after throws for easier followups

This should be enough right? Just package it together in a nice text file link in a tweet with #MakeTheBestSmash or some encouraging thing like that, maybe with an eloquent foreword and let it out.
Click to expand...

Adding some introduction and final comments is important. English is not my native language, but my suggestion is something like this:

Dear Nintendo,
In the last few days, some of us have been enjoying the demo for Super Smash Bros for Wii U/3DS, both at E3 and select best buy locations. While the game is very fun and well crafted, the people who had the chance to try it noticed some issues in the demo that might affect how well the game plays, from both a casual and competitive standpoint. As fans of the game, we compiled a list of small but significant changes most people who had a chance to try the demo seems to agree that would make the game more fun for everyone:

Movement:

- Increase in the window of time to dash back and forward
- Ability to cancel dash animations into crouches
- Ability to keep all forward momentum when jumping out of a dash

Offense

- Cast wide reduction in landing lag frames when using aerials close to the ground
- Cast wide reduction on cool down frames after throws for easier followups

The community also has in mind that the version of the game displayed in the demo is not final, and a lot of the issues noticed might be small glitches and bugs, which may not be in the final version of the game at all. Still, some us feel it is important to give our sincere feedback as a tool to help make the game become more enjoyable for everyone.
Click to expand...

but written much better of course.
 
Revven said:
This is the kind of shit that's toxic. Stop it, you're not being any better than the people who are being overreactionary.

Look, let me explain this again: it has nothing to do with making the game like Melee. Melee is just the closest, no, the pinnacle example of a competitive game in the Smash series. People compare to it because they really don't know what to describe in it that makes it so good for competition. They just use it as an example because it's quick and easy. Oh and I should clarify, by they I mean the low-mid level players that are shitposting on smashboards and r/smashbros. The people who actually compete at tournaments could describe it very easily, describe what they'd want out of Smash 4 without using the word 'Melee'.

Let me tell you what makes Melee competitive: movement options out the wazoo. Your dash/run can be stopped by crouching, this gives you access to both your down smash and down tilt as approach options. From a crouch, you could then switch to standing instead and use a different tilt or even a different smash attack. That is just one example of the kind of movement option that makes Melee what it is. And that, again, is not even wavedashing. It is an intuitive option that even a casual player can benefit from knowing, just as much as a casual player benefits from being able to shield the end of their run to gain access to their grounded moves.

And I guarantee you that run -> crouch was intentionally programmed in Melee, just like run -> shield works in all the games. It's something you can do out of your run just like you can do an Usmash out of your run with the C-stick. It doesn't hurt casual players at all to have this option in the game yet Sakurai took it out.

All people want are intuitive, non-glitch, movement options. And an ability to use those options to expand the game at a higher level -- whether that's through combos, mind games, etc etc. That is seriously it. And if you somehow have qualms with people being able to crouch out of their run, you have some serious issues on this.

Again, that is just one example of a movement option. Another example that wouldn't hurt casual players is one that exists in all platformers: momentum being carried from your run into your jump. What that does is it allows characters with faster running speeds to leap across the stage to approach a character. What happens right now in Brawl and seemingly Smash 4 is this momentum is not carried and therefore your character essentially is awkwardly moving in the air as if they just jumped from a standing position. It is logical physics, as well, because when you run in any platformer (hell, even Mario games) you carry the momentum from your jump. It was amazing to have this in Melee and not just because it was in Melee but because every character could make use of it and it helped them in various ways to put up an offense on someone.

But it seems to be absent from Smash 4, again. Taking that particular option out only hurts characters that have speed built-in with them in mind such as Captain Falcon, Fox, Sonic, etc etc. You might say that's a good thing but again look at how Captain Falcon was in Brawl. He was terrible. A large part of that was because of the lack of this option existing in Brawl. Secondly, it might appear good because it makes the fast characters on the same playing field as the slower characters but in actuality the slower characters could make use of it this just as much. Characters like Mario, DK, and even Ganondorf had really good approach options just from this physics-related option that was in the game. And you can even see how they benefit from this in Project M, as PM re-added it.

If you have zero understanding of what makes competitive Smash, you shouldn't shit on people who do. There are definitely people who are overreacting and expressing themselves on gut reactions because they really don't want a game that will likely not advance the community forward. People want to like and play this game seriously but they can't if the game doesn't offer these kinds of options and from what people played and saw, the options aren't there. It's frustrating to, once again, not get heard from the developer of the series you love. You think after all these years, with so much tournament footage available on Youtube, they would have an understanding of what the competitive players are looking for: intuitive movement options.

I hope this post has been enlightening to some degree because man, I am so tired of posts like the above. It is not healthy for the entire community whatsoever. If you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all.
Click to expand...

There is a difference between making vocalized constructive criticism or bringing up concerns, of which your post is, and what the majority of competitive players are saying on various forums of the internet right now. Those people are whiners and they can whine all they want, I don't care about them.
 
Does anyone know if Mr. Game and Watch was confirmed? He was in the video for Pac-Man and I am not sure why they would do that unless he was in the game.
 
SliceSabre said:
But that would be the problem wouldn't it?

By its very nature it probably wouldn't ever be that big because that many people don't have a vested interest. Are you going to convince Polygon, Kotaku and IGN to ask Nintendo reps for interviews on why they should change Smash 4 to make it appeal more to the competitive community and make a whole social media outrage scandal of it?
Click to expand...

Depends on how the problem is presented, really. I've mostly played Smash Bros casually, and I can see why limited movement options, specially the air game and landing lag issues, can end up making the game less fun from both a casual and competitive point of view.

It is up to people who care about those issues to present them in such way that shows how fixing them can end up benefiting every kind of player.
 
BassForever said:
So if DLC is true and the SAL leak is all the newcomers (for convenience lets ignore potential cut vets) rank the 5 characters you'd most want to see for DLC either from new IP not seen in Smash or characters from series already in the game

1. Inkling (Splatoon)
2. Isaac (Golden Sun)
3. Ridley (Metroid)
4. Blaziken (Pokemon)
5. Captain Fleming (Codename S.T.E.A.M.)
Click to expand...

I REALLY think it will be requested characters mainly that didn't make the cut or characters they didn't have time to finish before the deadline. Look at most of the Capcom side of Ultimate and it was characters that would be bought the hell up easily if they were DLC.

Though I feel the "casual" wii era characters that seem to be abundant in the roster are DLC worthy.If Chorus Kids are truly in, should have been in the list of DLC instead and we get a retro instead. He basically lied about that too. No new comers in the vanilla cast seem to be from anything during the SNES or N64 era or non highly respected classic characters like Pac Man. Chrom would have been appropriate DLC too, would have been bought, but doesn't look good in the initial list of FE characters. Lucas (a Japan only) cut, obscures that can fight reduced to AT status. Really feels like Sakurai had his hands tied by the marketting team more than anything else.
 
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