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[Oldschoolgamer]

So, I have a question. For all of these games that capture glimpses of the sex trade and prostitution, has any of them handled it in an actual critical manner? This might not be the strongest example, but compare it to something like The Seasoning House or any documentary or film that takes on the subject matter with some form of seriousness.

 

[ChipotIe]

I agree with most of her examples but she absolutely missed the point on some... as if she googled content to fill time regardless of context. Its not author voice or sexualization that these characters where brought in. It's to evoke the uneasiness and disgust for the situation in context. In new vegas for example just off screen next to her example was a male sex slave dancing in the street with a male giggolo one screen over. Two screens over in a minor vegas bar is a ghoul dominatrix and the robot FISTO, those these are strictly for humor. I highly doubt these situations were designed to titilate or sell copies. It's not sexual objectification but an indictment against it who's inclusion doesn't have any less merit than Anita's inclusion of said examples in her own video.

So unless she is taking the stance that New Vegas is also advocating cannibalism or impersonating Elvis as part of a street gang, other themes of the area, she is off point. As for not having consequences for their murder she literally showed you gaining infamy while conveniently showing a cute nickname you get when you have a high positive alignment and are commiting your first infamous act... and male and female sex workers are treated exactly the same way regardless of how you treat them, which includes male ghoul sexworkers, which in this case, aren't for laughs but to drive the disgust home though she just shrugs that off by saying that male examples arent attractuve or treated seriously... when Santiago there is actually more appealing than the females! It has nothing to do with male dominance... It's showcasing the debauchery of the GOMMORAH Hotel and serves as the impetus for investigating the hotel owners and eventually crossing paths with them as enemies. And it's not even something found in the entire series. It's just in New Vegas.... becuase it's Vegas.

This comes from the same series where if you lose an arm wrestling match with a super mutant you end up being their gimp for the night, waking up with a ball gag in your inventory (male) or having sex dolls renamed after your character name (female). But I guess in her mind this is a bad example too because in her views anything sexual in nature is bad as long as its exploitative or hetero in nature.

Personal issues with her aside I still think she made good points overall. I never participated in some of those other examples so I king of shrugged them off but she's right... they are still there in the game and I wish they weren't. And I didn't ask for it nor did I feel any of it was necessary to tell the story or enjoy the game. Some of the other examples were just egregious. It's in such bad taste im baffled by who could have possibly pitched these as ideas.

 

[Basketball]

Only half way through but Jesus Christ this is embarrassing for all of us who play these games. Guess I'm never buying GTAV.

Why ? It's a fun game and all the stuff in the video is completely up to the player. There are
loads of stuff to do other than beat up hookers or play with strippers.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

Why can't big publishers try better?

Try "different" and "better" are not the same thing. Seems like you would like to censor a lot of games instead of creating a new market.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Yeah but A Modest Proposal was written in the 1700s and you read it as a high school freshman. It's not exactly holding up a mirror to today. Thing was scathing when it was published, now it's like a goofy British thing that American kids laugh at.



I'm saying, if the joke is "this will be funny to people that already agree with my premise because this is absurd" and then you show it to someone who doesn't already agree with your premise, they won't laugh uncomfortably or go "oh man yeah that's harsh but I get it now". They'll laugh along and go "yeah prostitutes aren't people haha I'm going to pay this bitch and then kill her haha" because they believe that's cool.

If your satire doesn't or in fact cannot change someone's mind, then it's not effective at all. If you've ended up enforcing someone's shitty attitude, you've made the world worse. Even if that's not your intention it's your fault. There's obviously a spectrum or a scale here--some people are just going to be wrong in their interpretation. But the lion's share of people look at Scarface as badass and GTA as "fun".

Those lion's shares are who they are. They have their reasons - some don't want to change, some don't care, some don't get it. Too many variables are at play to commit just to the satirical aspect failing. Once again, for every six people who get an Onion post, twenty more will believe it or not get it.

You could apply this "I don't get it" to humor in general, or hell, things people don't get as a whole. You are laying blame to the item, not the person, and that's reminiscence of a fallacy keep bringing up on this very hobby we all love.

 

[Northeastmonk]

I'm saying, if most people miss the point then the satire isn't effective.

Mental health professionals don't see games as being satire. Some people out there don't see satire period. The people against violence hate video games, they see no satire. The developers make money and arguments against them are only relinquishing their reason to make the games again. There's a bigger picture here and it's money. Even if you stood out with picket signs and boycotted a game you wouldn't change anything. I realize this is a full length discussion, but look at Dante's Inferno and their payed for protesters. It worked for the industry instead of against it. Some people in this world believe that games are of the "devil". When do you actually find something valid actually changing something? Unless it's actually hurting a real person, that's when.

Video games come under more fire for violence than sex. Those issues are brought up all the time. These politics aren't carrying over to the real world where people are payed to make games.

 

[firehawk12]

So, I have a question. For all of these games that capture glimpses of the sex trade and prostitution, has any of them handled it in an actual critical manner? This might not be the strongest example, but compare it to something like The Seasoning House or any documentary or film that takes on the subject matter with some form of seriousness.

Of course not. lol

If anything, it can get fucked up at times. In I think Saints Row 2, you free sex slaves trapped in cargo containers only to have them work for you instead. The only thing that makes it remotely interesting is if you are playing a female character, then you can read into the idea that your character is such a psychopath that she can't even sympathize with the exploitation of other women.

 

[Basketball]

So, I have a question. For all of these games that capture glimpses of the sex trade and prostitution, has any of them handled it in an actual critical manner? This might not be the strongest example, but compare it to something like The Seasoning House or any documentary or film that takes on the subject matter with some form of seriousness.

the glimpses from watchdog was from a mission and it's pretty dark and serious. After the mission you can do follow ups to stop the sex trade

 

[Laevateinn]

Looking forward to watching this video later. I wish Anita or someone would do a well researched video about positive examples of women in games. Talk about Alys Landale, Samus et al.

 

[PK Gaming]

Looking forward to watching this video later. I wish Anita or someone would do a well researched video about positive examples of women in games. Talk about Alys Landale, Samus et al.

She plans on doing that

She's saving it for her last video, I believe

 

[DVCY201]

I'm supposed to derive perverted pleasure from desecrating the bodies of virtual females? I don't think that was the developer's intention when they were programming the game. Rather, it was probably easier for them to just have all NPC's be interactive to the game's mechanics.

I have issues with that statement. It implies that I am supposed to gain pleasure from these acts, as if I can't be equally repulsed. It's such a broad-sweeping statement that I can't help but be taken aback.

Also! Whenever you bring "research articles" into a discussion, it greatly helps when you cite those sources. Some of you will probably think it's nitpicking, but I definitely want to see how she arrives to her conclusions. Not because I doubt her, but because I would like to see where it originated from.

However, I do agree with most of this video. This is a far better example than any of the other debates she was touting before, and I do hope that developers take notice. The inclusion of sex workers has always been odd, as it's always been such a superficial and extraneous object placed in the game. Although, in certain cases, I think it's acceptable. Max Payne 3 I did not take issue with, because it wasn't supposed to be titillating and given the context of the game, it wasn't out of place.

 

[Zomba13]

Looking forward to watching this video later. I wish Anita or someone would do a well researched video about positive examples of women in games. Talk about Alys Landale, Samus et al.

I think that is coming at the end (if I remember the list of planned episodes). Not 100% sure though and again, not sure how many of the "positive" examples will end up being called out for being other tropes.

 

[cm osi]

Looking forward to watching this video later. I wish Anita or someone would do a well researched video about positive examples of women in games. Talk about Alys Landale, Samus et al.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Samus is a no-no.

 

[Captain Europe]

Another good vid, hopefully game developers are taking note.

Looking forward to watching this video later. I wish Anita or someone would do a well researched video about positive examples of women in games. Talk about Alys Landale, Samus et al.

There are positive examples, but the negatives far outweigh them.

 

[Vylash]

She plans on doing that

She's saving it for her last video, I believe

Didn't she do one already? I could swear she did

 

[meijiko]

Try "different" and "better" are not the same thing. Seems like you would like to censor a lot of games instead of creating a new market.

I don't see where anyone has called for censorship. Criticism does not equal censorship, nor does asking a developer to think about the content of a game before its made constitute censorship.

 

[Murder. She Wrote]

Those last five minutes of the video are her best yet! As always there a some small disagreements, but she did a pretty great job.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

So, I have a question. For all of these games that capture glimpses of the sex trade and prostitution, has any of them handled it in an actual critical manner? This might not be the strongest example, but compare it to something like The Seasoning House or any documentary or film that takes on the subject matter with some form of seriousness.

These games don't take the act of killing someone seriously, so why would anyone expect them to treat other topics seriously?

 

[Dicer]

At about the 17:30 mark she starts talking about how attacking get's you bonuses and it is encouraged, but she is wording it that it's aimed squarely at the female "Non playable sex object" when most if not all Open World/Sandboxers let you do this to who ever you want. I kinda feel like she is pigeonholing a bit...

This video seems better than her others so far, but has the same issues I have found in her others, which I won't get into because of the guidelines put forth.

Anyway back to the video.

 

[StoOgE]

Looking forward to watching this video later. I wish Anita or someone would do a well researched video about positive examples of women in games. Talk about Alys Landale, Samus et al.

I think that is her last video in the series aim.

 

[weevles]

While prostitution isn't some unusual, brand new thing that is completely absent from all societies, I do think it is bad that there are more open world games with prostitutes walking around than open buildings you can freely explore.

 

[Odrion]

I think prostitutes in an open world game are a relic of that 2000s edginess. Seriously, why populate every game world with them over any other street occupation?

Looking forward to watching this video later. I wish Anita or someone would do a well researched video about positive examples of women in games. Talk about Alys Landale, Samus et al.

Samus was a blank slate of a character until Metroid: Other M, which made her character out to be... Uh... yeah. ._.

 

[Zaptruder]

Shallow analysis pointing out the obvious without providing context to the situations they exist in. A more deeply rooted analysis examining developer and marketing pressures would've been more appreciated and more salient.

As it is, the argument comes across as hamfisted as she squeezes criticism out of video-gamey reflections of things that happen in the real world as objectification - ignoring that they are indeed just that; videogamey reflections of things in the real world.

I mean some of the comments above would've been effective at placing the context for viewers - sure they're reflections of the world, but why do they seem to be disproportionately featured? Where are other professions? etc.

Still, if you want to feel outrage at sexual objectification in videogames, then Sarkeesian's videos are pretty good for that.

Also, her belief that video games are more harmful because of player agency reflects a fairly discredited line of thinking with video game violence.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

In what ways could a game properly explore prostitution/sex slavery, and would a game not entirely focused on it be able to do so? I expect an indie game of the "papers please" type that does it, I just don't see see how games can use it as merely part of the background can do it in a good way. I didn't see/hear/think of any solutions to that problem in the video, though I hope the second part has some.

Samus was a blank slate of a character until Metroid: Other M, which made her character out to be... Uh... yeah. ._.

She had minimal characterization before, yet it still showed a much better character than what was in Other M. It could be problematic that pre-Other M Samus is one of the best female characters in games though.

 

[Brakke]

I find that GTA is more parody than satire. For all their talk about how GTAV is a glimpse into American masculinity in 2014, it doesn't actually say anything about it. Michael is still mostly a dick to his wife and Trevor is still a psychopath. Nothing is really said about their position as men in society, or is anything really troubled. At the end, you get to choose which one to side with... but you also get to choose to side with both, rendering any message pointless.

Yeah, exactly. There's nothing about encouraging you murder a prostitute and then letting it slide or else rewarding you with cash and the thrill and excitement of a shootout or car chase with the cops that's in any way critical.

Those lion's shares are who they are. They have their reasons - some don't want to change, some don't care, some don't get it. Too many variables are at play to commit just to the satirical aspect failing. Once again, for every six people who get an Onion post, twenty more will believe it or not get it.

You could apply this "I don't get it" to humor in general, or hell, things people don't get as a whole. You are laying blame to the item, not the person, and that's reminiscence of a fallacy keep bringing up on this very hobby we all love.

I mean, we can sit here making up numbers whole cloth all day if we want but let's set that aside.

And this is different than just jokes. If someone doesn't get a joke about a chicken crossing the road, that's harmless, we've just wasted time. Most Onion articles are trifles, not getting it is a goof. If you encourage someone to laugh at mistreating people without following up on that, without guilting them on their laughs, then you're evangelizing terrible attitudes and that's irresponsible.

I'd never hold a developer legally responsible if some criminal cited their work as inspiration, but I would hold them partially morally responsible.

 

[Htown]

Samus was a blank slate of a character until Metroid: Other M, which made her character out to be... Uh... yeah. ._.

No she wasn't. She didn't speak, but that didn't mean she was a blank slate.

 

[Tomohawk]

I feel this problem would be solved with the inclusion of male sex workers in games. I don't understand why Anita thinks this would not be the case.

 

[Warm Machine]

While prostitution isn't some unusual, brand new thing that is completely absent from all societies, I do think it is bad that there are more open world games with prostitutes walking around than open buildings you can freely explore.

It is part and parcel with the crime story narrative. Excluding it would be non truthful to the realities of the criminal lifestyle. They are certainly executing it piss poorly is all.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

I don't buy the "GTA is satire so it doesn't count" argument. Satire takes on a far more complex meaning when it's interactive---when the game system gives you a groping minigame and rewards you for using (and killing) prostitutes then saying "GTA is satirical" doesn't quite cover it.

Especially when oftentimes the characterization is oftentimes off-kilter and doesn't really reflect the players' actions in that world.

 

[PK Gaming]

Didn't she do one already? I could swear she did

Nope

I'm really looking forward to it, heh

I think prostitutes in an open world game are a relic of that 2000s edginess. Seriously, why populate every game world with them over any other street occupation?

Samus was a blank slate of a character until Metroid: Other M, which made her character out to be... Uh... yeah. ._.

She had a personality in Metroid: Fusion. She's the narrator.

 

[firehawk12]

No she wasn't. She didn't speak, but that didn't mean she was a blank slate.

Everything was either projected onto her or inferred. Certainly no one saw Other M's characterization of her in any other game (well, except maybe Fusion).

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

At about the 17:30 mark she starts talking about how attacking get's you bonuses and it is encouraged, but she is wording it that it's aimed squarely at the female "Non playable sex object" when most if not all Open World/Sandboxers let you do this to who ever you want. I kinda feel like she is pigeonholing a bit...

This video seems better than her others so far, but has the same issues I have found in her others, which I won't get into because of the guidelines put forth.

Anyway back to the video.

Yep. Started strong then she gets back to her usual rethoric and snark.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I feel this problem would be solved with the inclusion of male sex workers in games. I don't understand why Anita thinks this would not be the case.

That's mentioned in the video and she says it's just equal opportunity objectification.

Everything was either projected onto her or inferred. Certainly no one saw Other M's characterization of her in any other game (well, except maybe Fusion).

Fusion counts, yes. Even before that, she doesn't follow orders from anyone and decides to set out on these missions on her own. It's minimal characterization, but leaving a lot to the inference of the audience isn't objectively poor.

Having a problem with one of the better female characters in gaming being so minimally characterized is an actual problem though. It suggests that women can be good characters if their personalities aren't front an center.

 

[dimb]

I think the video fell apart when she got to this line:

Unlike other NPCs that exist for purposes outside of their sexuality, non-playable sex objects have little to know personality or identity to speak of.

This seems like another "Tropes vs Women" video of citation rather than dissection.

 

[mullet2000]

Samus was a blank slate of a character until Metroid: Other M, which made her character out to be... Uh... yeah. ._.

Not quite a blank slate, no. She doesn't talk in the Prime games but the way she acts, he physical reaction to the things happening around her, and hell, even the reflection of her eyes in her visor all tell the story of a strong, confident character.

Other M though...yeah that thing is a goodamn trainwreck. Terrible characterization.

 

[Odrion]

No she wasn't. She didn't speak, but that didn't mean she was a blank slate.

She was a blank avatar for the player to project themselves onto until you finally beat the games really quick to see her in a bikini.

 

[Gamerloid]

I feel this problem would be solved with the inclusion of male sex workers in games. I don't understand why Anita thinks this would not be the case.

She already showed male sex workers, but most were made to be taken as a joke.

Also, when looking at the negative effects these studies show about these things, why would we want to sexually objectify males next?

 

[Yopis]

You could as easily put a car next to each of these women, Sex sells and did so strongly in the 80's...

As far as decoration goes, there are prostitutes in slums, there are loose women in bars so on and so forth, there are also thugs/gangs in slums which games represent.

In a movie, let's use Rumble in the Bronx for example, the main female was a cage dancer in a seedy club, it's was representative of the area and there was no reason to get upset over it.

Flag girls in races always tend to be sexy as well as card holders for boxing matches, it's an issue with society if anything and not strictly a gaming problem.

That's about as much as I can say to follow the rules of this discussion.
Edit: still watching, will comment further if need be.

True came to post the same. Just because the racing flag girls dont fit into the feminist view of gaming, does not mean that it isn't true to life? Why would they show fully clothed prostitutes that never proposition?

Same with the Vietnam prostitute. Some might say why did they put that in? Why does any medium do that? Because some pieces of fiction have shades of reality. Every movie about Vietnam includes the prostitutes to validate its authenticity somewhat. Yes you can take that out because its better for some people. When you do the fiction loses something.

Same with 60's movies that use N word. Things like that happened. Can be jarring but that stuff is left in for the authenticity. We should not strive for a feminist approved gaming landscape. We should not strive to keep things boys only allowed either.

We should have a gaming landscape that's rich enough to encompass havens for both sexes, that also push to the fanservice fringes of both for those that want it.

Also don't think this is all a malicious mysoginist attack. Also don't feel every commercial that shows a stupid guy and smart condescending wife is evil. Most of that is just marketing imo.

Though I think some of these views are rigid im glad peoplecan discuss them. Those are my thoughts.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

I don't see where anyone has called for censorship. Criticism does not equal censorship, nor does asking a developer to think about the content of a game before its made constitute censorship.

A lot of people certainly want a lot of this content either toned down or removed because they find it offensive or even (allegedly) harmful. That's censorship.

Also, her belief that video games are more harmful because of player agency reflects a fairly discredited line of thinking with video game violence.

Exactly. We have plenty of studies showing that when people engage in killing humans (99% male characters, BTW) in videogames many hours a week they don't develop violent tendencies as a result. Am I to believe without any evidence that these sexist depictions actually harm women? Particularly when most women don't even play them or know of their existence?

 

[rottame]

The thing I find weird about this series of videos is that the arguments are presented as describing endemic phenomena, things widely found in videogames to the point that they define the medium. The accumulation of examples has the effect of making who watches the video think that this is how videogames are. The problem is that she takes examples from three or four decades of videogames. Not only this is unfair because of how society in general changed in the last 40 years. But also, I don't find sexism in games as prevalent as the videos would make you believe. There are many, many videogames, and they have a staggering variety of content and forms, probably more than other media such as cinema. The vast majority of them (and I mean something like "almost all of them") have absolutely nothing that could be considered as sexist or mysoginist.

Taking Binary Domain or Need for Speed Underground as reflective of what videogames are sounds to me like taking some low budget action movie and Fast and Furious to say something about cinema. I mean, if you take the current top 50 most sold console games (or, even better, the top 50 ios games which better reflects what is mainstream right now) I don't think you would find one example of sexist content*.

Generally speaking, if you don't have to stick to what is prevalent in a certain field right now, then you can find examples of pretty much anything you want. I think I can easily find 50 examples of games that have strong right-wing or left-wing leaning content. Does it mean game are left/right wing as a medium?

* with the exception of GTA5, I guess, depending on if you think it's satire or not.

 

[PK Gaming]

She was a blank avatar for the player to project themselves onto until you finally beat the games really quick to see her in a bikini.

 

[Odrion]

^^^ She had a monologue once, that's nice.

She was a blank avatar for the player to project themselves onto until you finally beat the games really quick to see her in a bikini.

And then Nintendo put her in sexy latex and made her ask men for permission to use her equipment.

 

[GeoGonzo]

I think she nailed the first part (women as background sexual objects), I hope some devs are watching these videos because some of those scenes are incredibly cringe worthy.

I didn't quite get the part on violence against women, though. It felt like just random violence, the sort you could see against almost any npc.

 

[Captain Europe]

I think prostitutes in an open world game are a relic of that 2000s edginess. Seriously, why populate every game world with them over any other street occupation?

Yep, there's nothing edgy about it these days, it's just boring and daft.

 

[mantidor]

[...]

It wasn't until a crew member asked her "Why not get a real job?" that I heard her say something you would expect out of one of these video game characters. Her response "A blowjob is better than no job". I wasn't sure if I should laugh or just feel horrible for her. It made me wonder if she REALLY felt that way, or if it was a line fed to her by someone else.

I don't know if this story is relevant...but I figured I'd share it. Situations like in these games, are they real?? Most certainly.

I guess whether they are always necessary is certainly up for debate. The sad truth though....it's not unrealistic...in more ways than one.

Maybe the scenes should have been more extensive, I don't know, but I saw not a single example of that kind of phrases from prostitutes in the games showed, it was mostly "you are so handsome I might give you a discount" which is completely ridiculous and straight out of porn fantasies. Not to mention the ridiculous minigame where you can make a stripper have sex with you by "touching her right".

A realistic thing would have been that when you take a prostitute home her infant son or daughter is waiting for her. You are never going to see that in a game though.

 

[SmokyDave]

I really like non-player sex objects. I'm sorry, but I do. The more sexualised, the better. I have no interest in a deep back story or righteous motivation, I'd rather just have someone attractive and sexualised to look at. I've been wrestling with that since Anita started the gender awareness ball rolling and I've come to the conclusion that I'm ok with it. I don't feel that my attitude towards digital women is in any way reflective of my attitude or feelings towards real women.

Although I find these videos interesting, I just can't shake the feeling that the pendulum is being swung a little hard from time to time. The section of this video on violability and disposability in particular is just something I can't look at and say 'oh yes, women suffer that disproportionately in video games'. It certainly hasn't been the case in my gaming history. They're second only to children as a protected peoples. Well, and the disabled. Really, there is only one group that you can whale on with absolute impunity.

Still, there's no doubt that Anita has almost single-handedly changed the discourse surrounding gender in video games and I suspect her effects will be felt for years to come. I just hope that there's still a place out there for hyper-sexualised women when the dust settles.

Oh, also, there are lots of scantily-clad women in certain types of racing games because those games are somewhat reflective of 'the scene' in real life. Pretty much any and all motor racing involves hot women in tight spandex holding up signs.

 

[Gamerloid]

And then Nintendo put her in sexy latex and made her ask men for permission to use her equipment.

That's the "hell run" on Other M correct? I was told I wouldn't like that part.

 

[firehawk12]

I think the video fell apart when she got to this line:
This seems like another "Tropes vs Women" video of citation rather than dissection.

This is precisely why I find her videos uninteresting.

I think they're important if only because of the violent reaction she has received, but if you're "already on the team", it doesn't really add much to the discussion that you don't already know.

That's the "hell run" on Other M correct? I was told I wouldn't like that part.

Yeah, it's when she isn't allowed to use her Varia suit until the end of the level.

 

[ChipotIe]

As much as I love the metroid games Samus is an awful example. Several games reward good play times by disrobing her and then there is the zero suit... which now has heels. reskin it flesh coloured if you think there is nothing wrong with it.

She wears heavy armour that is clearly a henshin (magical transformation). Z suit is absolutely unnessesary except for in zero mission where it actually has context.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Why did she use Human Revolution as an example that "emphasis deshumanization on female" with an animations when tthe game is infamous for having take downs animations sharing with every single killabe NPC? (everybody knows Kung Fu suddenly)