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[Zaphod]

I was obviously not talking about prostitutes in all sorts of games, but prostitutes in Binary Domain.

And I assumed that people complaining about Binary Domain should have actually played Binary Domain. The game is kinda smart in some ways.

For example right after meeting Faye it's possible to agree with Bo that she has a nice body. She will notice and not like you because of that, which has negative consequences in the game. Same with those prostitutes. That's pretty clever. Other games wouldn't have done anything like that. Plenty of things could have been better of course, but the idea behind it is really great.

Hey, that's totally cool and no I had not played Binary Domain. I'm more interested in it now because of what has been described here. The first post just came off as missing all the points from the video since it seemed say that a sex object can only be that if they dress sexy and are obtainable.

I will say that throwing in prostitutes to make a place seem gritty is getting old. It's like the old soft core exploitation movies from the 70's, the gritty realism was just an excuse for T&A.

 

[Brakke]

Isn't the manga canon?

I mean there's "canon" according to creators and then "canon" according to perception. How many humans in the world are even aware that the manga exists?

No amount of "but that's explained in the Animatrix!" makes those Matrix sequels work.

 

[Oldschoolgamer]

I thought it used to be but then wasnt. I'm not sure what that has to do with other m though

Nothing, more along the lines of her having characterization before that mess.

 

[Basketball]

I really like non-player sex objects. I'm sorry, but I do. The more sexualised, the better. I have no interest in a deep back story or righteous motivation, I'd rather just have someone attractive and sexualised to look at. I've been wrestling with that since Anita started the gender awareness ball rolling and I've come to the conclusion that I'm ok with it. I don't feel that my attitude towards digital women is in any way reflective of my attitude or feelings towards real women.

Although I find these videos interesting, I just can't shake the feeling that the pendulum is being swung a little hard from time to time. The section of this video on violability and disposability in particular is just something I can't look at and say 'oh yes, women suffer that disproportionately in video games'. It certainly hasn't been the case in my gaming history. They're second only to children as a protected peoples. Well, and the disabled. Really, there is only one group that you can whale on with absolute impunity.

Still, there's no doubt that Anita has almost single-handedly changed the discourse surrounding gender in video games and I suspect her effects will be felt for years to come. I just hope that there's still a place out there for hyper-sexualised women when the dust settles.

Oh, also, there are lots of scantily-clad women in certain types of racing games because those games are somewhat reflective of 'the scene' in real life. Pretty much any and all motor racing involves hot women in tight spandex holding up signs.

good post and I agree it's games and I play them purely for entertainment

I know Anita is not calling for censorship but I believe there are games now and will be games in the future that are more favorable to her liking.

There is enough room in the medium for all types of games. With the indie scene becoming more prevalent and publishers funding other projects along with the AAA (Child of Light and others). Elements don't have to disappear for another to appear.

 

[Takuan]

Real talk, I kept wondering when I would meet lollipop girl.

Come to think of it, Yvonne Strahovski in a bikini never appeared in GTA V, either.

 

[Veive257]

But those strip clubs are staffed by actual people, whereas the strip clubs in GTAV are staffed by mere automatons who will have sex with you if you manage to complete a minigame.

Them as essentially sex dispensers is the issue.

If we can't replace real people with automatons, we can't have video games anymore.. only LARPing

 

[Northeastmonk]

But those strip clubs are staffed by actual people, whereas the strip clubs in GTAV are staffed by mere automatons who will have sex with you if you manage to complete a minigame.

Them as essentially sex dispensers is the issue.

There's a dark street somewhere in the USA filled with X rated movie booths, strip clubs with dancers who give private shows, and XXX video stores. I think if they did try and represent the corrupted side of America or where some people go when they want to enjoy sexual attractions then they've made Liberty City a perfect representation. It's not saying "crime is okay if you leave out the sex". It's there because sex or relationships are there, just like prostitution was around during ancient times. It's not like prostitution will ever go away. I get a sense of evil when I speak this way, but in reality it's real. If you make it mainstream why not go big rather than go home crying?

 

[HK-47]

Nothing, more along the lines of her having characterization before that mess.

Well I mean people werent bothered much by Fusion either, more the gating effect Adam AI had on the game. Obviously there was some mutterings about giving character to a previously blank slate but it was minor quibbling compared to Other M. Also there wasnt a ton of referencing to the manga in the games so it was sort of removed from potential criticism.

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

"A lot of people" certainly doesn't sound like anyone I've seen arguing in this thread.

What I think most people who argue against these sorts of depictions actually want to happen, myself included, is for game developers to stop and think about whether or not these depictions and scenarios are necessary or beneficial to the experiences they're trying to provide. And, if so, is there a way they can do it thoughtfully, without resorting to juvenile and discomforting tropes?

You just said you want all those things gone unless they have deep reasons for it. That's censorship. They're allowed to do as they please and serve all those people that like how they do things.

Where have I once suggested censorship, exactly? If exploring and representing women in a mature, fleshed out and dynamic way instead of purely as an object counts as such, that says a disturbing amount about yourself.

By saying "try better" you're saying that the current depictions should be replaced by what you find more appealing. As I said before:

-Expansion of the market = good.
-Changing things to only appeal to some people = bad.

 

[Enduin]

Everybody is an automaton. She made a good case about the disturbing nature of the mini game but, by themeselves, every single store or service in that game is automated.

Sure, but last time I checked store clerks in games didn't offer to go back to my place and blow me after buying enough sodas and candy bars from them. Shit's not equivalent in anyway.

 

[Odrion]

Isn't the manga canon?

And the Star Wars expanded universe novels totally made the prequels not suck.

 

[Phamit]

First time I heard of this, watched it a little bit and then looked up the other stuff she was uploading.

A question occurred me: Almost everything sounded so negativ on the first glance, does she also show positive things or examples how it should be done? I dont know if I want something that only spotlights the bad things.

 

[dugdug]

She kinda lost me halfway through once she started saying "studies have shown..." "there's evidence that..."

Hasn't there also been studies that show games have little to no effect on people? Didn't that come up in all that "games make people violent stuff?"

That's a genuine question. I don't know particulars.

 

[firehawk12]

GTAIV's story ran out of steam well before the end, with Nico continuing to do jobs with no overarching narrative what so ever. The ending felt like a last minute desperate attempt to create a climax, and it fell weak because most people only got close to Roman, not Kate. And it fell weak because by that point most people were kinda sick of both of those characters anyway.

In any case, I don't think having those three endings is a washout because some people will genuinely want to have all three alive, even if that's something many might not agree with, and they didn't, many chose to kill Trevor because they hated him, I still think it's fine as an option.

That's true, I think most people who made it to the end, like in GTAIV, saved it right before the choice, then played all three endings out just to see how they all happened, but ultimately, of course, went with C to continue their file on.

I suppose they could have made it better by simply having the character placed back before the main mission after the credits role, thereby validating all three endings for everyone.

I don't disagree with your thoughts on GTAIV, but I think having that choice made it at least somewhat interesting.

I guess if the third choice was to kill both Michael and Trevor, then I would find that more interesting - if only because then you get a chance to condemn both men for being terrible in their own way. But I don't think the game wants you to see any of them - even Trevor - as problematic.

First time I heard of this, watched it a little bit and then looked up the other stuff she was uploading.

A question occurred me: Almost everything sounded so negativ on the first glance, does she also show positive things or examples how it should be done? I dont know if I want something that only spotlights the bad things.

Other than to not do it, she doesn't really offer any real solutions.

 

[polyh3dron]

Yeah I thought it was especially sexist when they had that prostitute say "me so horny" and "me love you long time".

 

[anaron]

You just said you want all those things gone unless they have deep reasons for it. That's censorship. They're allowed to do as they please and serve all those people that like how they do things.


By saying "try better" you're saying that the current depictions should be replaced by what you find more appealing. As I said before:

-Expansion of the market = good.
-Changing things to only appeal to some people = bad.

Haha, holy shit.

You think better representation is only appealing to "some people"? Women are 50 percent of the audience, dude.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Sure, but last time I checked store clerks in games didn't offer to go back to my place and blow me after buying enough sodas and candy bars from them. Shit's not equivalent in anyway.

But they not are real people, and thats what the quoted poster was mentioning. Both are not.

 

[PsychoSoldier]

Everybody is an automaton. She made a good case about the disturbing nature of the mini game but, by themeselves, every single store or service in that game is automated.

Obviously, but he was trying to say that GTA was somehow less sexist because there were less strip clubs than there are actually in LA.

I was noting that it isn't the mere presence of strip clubs that is the problem, it's the way in which the workers there are represented.

If you managed to write a video game taking place solely in a strip club, if all the girls were written well and felt like actual humans, would probably feel less gross than what we have in some of these games.

 

[Gunstarheroes]

I haven't been the biggest fan of Anita, but i actually genuinely enjoyed this one, and thought it was her most well-made video to date. Most of the small nit-picks i have, have already been talked about in detail (only focused on sex worker type jobs like strippers and prostitutes, a few rough examples that were grasping a bit like Binary Domain) but overall, well argued, good points, i enjoyed it.

 

[Misterinenja]

Best video of hers so far.

Some of those things in open world crime games is and has always been really weird.

 

[Brakke]

You just said you want all those things gone unless they have deep reasons for it. That's censorship. They're allowed to do as they please and serve all those people that like how they do things.

Wanting something to be different is not the same as forcing it to be different.

"Censorship" is such a boogieman.

 

[HK-47]

I don't disagree with your thoughts on GTAIV, but I think having that choice made it at least somewhat interesting.

I guess if the third choice was to kill both Michael and Trevor, then I would find that more interesting - if only because then you get a chance to condemn both men for being terrible in their own way. But I don't think the game wants you to see any of them - even Trevor - as problematic.

Sometimes people getting away with things is the point though. At least with Trevor.

 

[rottame]

Haha, holy shit.

You think better representation is only appealing to "some people"? Women are 50 percent of the audience, dude.

Of console and PC games? Of action adventures and RPGs (which seem to be the only games existing, according to the TvW series)? Are you sure about that?

 

[Odrion]

There's a dark street somewhere in the USA filled with X rated movie booths, strip clubs with dancers who give private shows, and XXX video stores.

There are also supermarkets. Why does every open world game feel the need to perfectly render every strip club instead of, you know, any other business.

And arguing about prostitutes and strippers in GTAV is like trying to douse out the flames of a twig in a forest fire, that game straight up hates feminism on an uncomfortable level.

 

[Nymphae]

The women's only purpose in those ads are, in your words, get the attention of men. So aren't these women reduced to simply being objects of sexual attractiveness? That is the problem that she's trying to highlight. Women being reduced into sexual beings used to gain attention of straight men. The women are as much of an item as the arcade box next to them.

Sure, but what conclusions do you come to if this is what's happening? Men like women's bodies. Advertisers put them on ads to attract male eyes. This means women are only seen as sex objects? It means they CAN be portrayed as sex objects. For the purpose of the ad, yes, that's what they're doing. Using women as objects to entice men. But I don't get how you can make the jump to say that this impacts male or societal thinking into believing this is the only worth a woman has. It's just a very easy way to push a man's buttons.

 

[dimb]

If you managed to write a video game taking place solely in a strip club, if all the girls were written well and felt like actual humans, would probably feel less gross than what we have in some of these games.

Seeking out deep interpersonal relationships on any level inside of games designed around gunning down hundreds or thousands of people seems misguided.

There are also supermarkets. Why does every open world game feel the need to perfectly render every strip club instead of, you know, any other business.

And arguing about prostitutes and strippers in GTAV is like trying to douse out the flames of a twig in a forest fire, that game straight up hates women on an uncomfortable level.

A grocery store would require an enormous amount of assets to accurately depict the array of available products. Strip clubs are dark and spartan environments that are easy to render, and can at least be more logistically slotted into a game centered around crime.

 

[HK-47]

Of console and PC games? Of action adventures and RPGs (which seem to be the only games existing, according to the TvW series)? Are you sure about that?

RPGs are pretty popular with girls.

 

[kiguel182]

I liked the Damsell in Distress ones way better than this one. I have some problems with the arguments she presents (or at least the way she does it).

It's true that games objectify women but the way she goes to present this is really weak. She starts with the strippers and prostitutes, something that is common to tons of "mature" fiction. There are lots of crime dramas that have episodes on strip clubs. This has less to do with women and more with the fact that those are places associated with criminals and low-life citizens. She defends that video-games are different because you can interact with them but the artists intention is the same as those mediums.

She could've used examples like Mass Effects 2 camera that focus on Miranda's ass as actual objectification in an environment where it makes no sense. There are more examples like this I'm sure and it would paint a better, and more worrisome, picture than showing strip clubs.

The second part of the video is where I think she doesn't have a point. Most (if not all) the examples she uses of violence against women are just violence against NPC's. On GTA I can kill man and women. The problem here is the killing not the sex of the victim. Women are not targeted in these games and killing a man has the same penalties. I know that she connects this with them being prostitutes but it wouldn't make sense that the player could kill everyone but the prostitutes.

She also shows examples of some games just for, 10 minutes later, saying those games also have male prostitutes. She undermines the examples but those it later enough as to not impact her first argument. That's weak in my opinion.

The theme she chose is a good one, but I don't think she approached it in the best way possible. Video-games do objectify women and it's a real problem but the way she goes to show it is not were most of the problems are.

But, despite all of that, she does show some disgusting things like that GTA V mini-game, the railroad achievement in RDR and those video-game commercials.

 

[Oldschoolgamer]

I mean there's "canon" according to creators and then "canon" according to perception. How many humans in the world are even aware that the manga exists?

No amount of "but that's explained in the Animatrix!" makes those Matrix sequels work.

No amount of anything could have made those sequels suck less than they did. lol

Well I mean people werent bothered much by Fusion either, more the gating effect Adam AI had on the game. Obviously there was some mutterings about giving character to a previously blank slate but it was minor quibbling compared to Other M. Also there wasnt a ton of referencing to the manga in the games so it wasnt sort of removed from potential criticism.

Well, I mean she talked in Super so that didn't matter to me. I was just questioning narrative before Other M.

And the Star Wars expanded universe novels totally made the prequels not suck.

Miss me with that. My question has nothing to do with how terrible Other M is. I should have framed it different or to a different person. Only reason I brought it up, is because it paints Samus in an infinitely more interesting light than Other M.


edit: This is getting real offtopic, so I'll not add on after this.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Obviously, but he was trying to say that GTA was somehow less sexist because there were less strip clubs than there are actually in LA.

I was noting that it isn't the mere presence of strip clubs that is the problem, it's the way in which the workers there are represented.

If you managed to write a video game taking place solely in a strip club, if all the girls were written well and felt like actual humans, would probably feel less gross than what we have in some of these games.

Fair point. Still, some store owners are mocked the shit out of them (the Ammunation guy). Still, you have a point that the Strip club has a lot of disturbing points.

 

[meijiko]

You just said you want all those things gone unless they have deep reasons for it. That's censorship. They're allowed to do as they please and serve all those people that like how they do things.


By saying "try better" you're saying that the current depictions should be replaced by what you find more appealing. As I said before:

-Expansion of the market = good.
-Changing things to only appeal to some people = bad.

So wishing for a cultural shift, or a more thoughtful mindset in people is censorship? You have a really, really broad view of censorship.

Censorship to me is actively taking away or obscuring something. Trying to change someone's mind, or being hopeful of a different outcome is not censorship.

 

[kirblar]

I really like non-player sex objects. I'm sorry, but I do. The more sexualised, the better. I have no interest in a deep back story or righteous motivation, I'd rather just have someone attractive and sexualised to look at. I've been wrestling with that since Anita started the gender awareness ball rolling and I've come to the conclusion that I'm ok with it. I don't feel that my attitude towards digital women is in any way reflective of my attitude or feelings towards real women.

It's really interesting to me how the dynamic changes when it's just guys doing it to other guys. Sexuality and sexual expression is embedded and normalized to a degree in gay culture that goes far beyond what you see in straight culture, and it is definitely a huge culture shock as a young guy. It made me really uncomfortable for a while, until I started to let go of the social norms I had previously been trained to expect as a kid and teenager and roll with it. When I look at an attractive guy, I'm not treating him as "not a person." He's just hot.

However, realizing that other guys are looking at you the same way does make you conscious of the reaction your physical appearance has on others. But in the M/M dynamic, it's symmetrical, with both parties essentially sharing a similar viewpoint. In the M/F one, it's almost certainly not, and I think the frustration and other strong emotions from having to meet standards that aren't your own are something everyone can relate to on some level.

From that old thread? Yeah. I've taught women's studies for 3 years and every year the response is the same. When you bring up cosmetics and body image, female students take it personally. Then you have to tell students that women disproportionately suffer from eating disorders much more than men and then they stop to think about the larger issue of women's representations in popular culture.

Ah, thanks! Had forgotten who provided that anecdote, in case I wanted to reference it at some point, because it's just so ridiculous. That chart recently with the "preferred" partner age for men/women was pretty eye opening in regards to the use of makeup.

 

[Brakke]

Sure, but what conclusions do you come to if this is what's happening? Men like women's bodies. Advertisers put them on ads to attract male eyes. This means women are only seen as sex objects? It means they CAN be portrayed as sex objects. For the purpose of the ad, yes, that's what they're doing. Using women as objects to entice men. But I don't get how you can make the jump to say that this impacts male or societal thinking into believing this is the only worth a woman has. It's just a very easy way to push a man's buttons.

The main thing is that if it happens again and again and again and again and is in fact the dominant representation of women, then people start to round up from dominant to primary or exclusive.

 

[anaron]

So wishing for a cultural shift, or a more thoughtful mindset in people is censorship? You have a really, really broad view of censorship.

Censorship to me is actively taking away or obscuring something. Trying to change someone's mind, or being hopeful of a different outcome is not censorship.

Exactly.

 

[firehawk12]

Sometimes people getting away with things is the point though. At least with Trevor.

That's fine, but what is that satirizing? If anything, the game feels like it is celebrating American masculinity and revels in its excess. You get cash, drugs, and women - all for being a psychopath.

Sure there's Trevor's mommy issues, but those are all optional missions that you don't even need to see unless you are interested in doing those god awful carjacking missions.

Ah, thanks! Had forgotten who provided that anecdote, in case I wanted to reference it at some point, because it's just so ridiculous. That chart recently with the "preferred" partner age for men/women was pretty eye opening in regards to the use of makeup.

I think I remember the thread now - it was about the word feminism right?

The other surprising thing I found is that "feminism" has become so toxic that a lot of women don't want to identify with the movement. Or alternatively, they think that men and women are equal in society now so that feminism is an outdated concept.

 

[sentry65]

who cares if she makes money on it or not. Bottom line is the industry needs to grow up and take notice of these things.

 

[Veive257]

Good video. I missed Sleeping Dogs.. got to put that one on the list now. Looks like fun.

 

[Captain Europe]

She kinda lost me halfway through once she started saying "studies have shown..." "there's evidence that..."

Hasn't there also been studies that show games have little to no effect on people? Didn't that come up in all that "games make people violent stuff?"

That's a genuine question. I don't know particulars.

Of course media has an effect on people, especially on easily influenced young individuals

 

[HK-47]

Seeking out deep interpersonal relationships on any level inside of games designed around gunning down hundreds or thousands of people seems misguided.

Also giving fully formed personalities to every character in RPGs and open world sandboxes is not feasible. You could add a few to the list of major characters though and inform the player about those people through them. Show them a multifaceted example.

 

[Gestault]

The closer I got to the end, the less effective I felt her statements became. I'm a bit disappointed here, when all is said and done. Not to diminish the effort behind it, but it's frustrating being someone who agrees in premise with her points, who can't accept the merit of most of her points. The pattern of how she substantiates her ideas by stripping context and intent, and simply relying on superficial appearances gives me pause for whether her commentary could even translate to a written paper. I can't imagine how someone who's pre-disposed to disagree with her would react to all this.

 

[Brakke]

Seeking out deep interpersonal relationships on any level inside of games designed around gunning down hundreds or thousands of people seems misguided.

I sort of fell that designing a game around gunning down hundreds or thousands of people is misguided. Or at least doing that and framing it as a story is.

 

[Odrion]

A grocery store would require an enormous amount of assets to accurately depict the array of available products. Strip clubs are dark and spartan environments that are easy to render, and can at least be more logistically slotted into a game centered around crime.

lmao

 

[broncobuster]

I assume Anita chooses a set list of games for each episode to grab several examples from, due to limited play time. Deus Ex works for the strip club and asian prostitute examples, but not the rest. She means to contrast the kill animation for the male NPC to the female when they're the exact same. Viewpoint are different due to randomization, not gender specific. Another clip is cut to imply the player is yelling "you can't run" to a female NPC, when it's an off-screen hostile attacking the player. It's understandable to get the larger point across, but she should revisit the game for positive female examples in the future. Good episode.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

So wishing for a cultural shift, or a more thoughtful mindset in people is censorship? You have a really, really broad view of censorship.

Censorship to me is actively taking away or obscuring something. Trying to change someone's mind, or being hopeful of a different outcome is not censorship.

Exactly.

My personal problem is that some of his arguments are the same arguments made by politicians to try to justifie censorship ("studies say" "is different because is interactive"). This arguments has their merits but are lost when she uses the usual snark or cherry pick examples, so it gives the impression that she does prefere to reinforce her views. .

The closer I got to the end, the less effective I felt her statements became. I'm a bit disappointed here, when all is said and done. Not to diminish the effort behind it, but it's frustrating being someone who agrees in premise with her points, who can't accept the merit of most of her points. The pattern of how she substantiates her ideas by stripping context and intent, and simply relying on superficial appearances gives me pause for whether her commentary could even translate to a written paper. I can't imagine how someone who's pre-disposed to disagree with her would react to all this.

This. She started really good... but that later half.

 

[Dicer]

Yeah I thought it was especially sexist when they had that prostitute say "me so horny" and "me love you long time".

Go watch full Metal Jacket, and then Listen to some 2-live crew...it's a nod to that...

 

[HK-47]

That's fine, but what is that satirizing? If anything, the game feels like it is celebrating American masculinity and revels in its excess. You get cash, drugs, and women - all for being a psychopath.

Sure there's Trevor's mommy issues, but those are all optional missions that you don't even need to see unless you are interested in doing those god awful carjacking missions.

I genuinely believe that Trevor was mocking the behavior of most players in sandboxes. I suppose that it open to interpretation though. Obviously the problem here is still the "games need to be fun" mantra and the fact that GTA is a blockbuster that needs to sell big. So you can be too scathing or on point or it might ruint he fun.

 

[rottame]

RPGs are pretty popular with girls.

Relatively speaking, they are. But from what I heard, the gender disparity in console/PC is so large that I am actually surprised games are not more targeted at men.

“Core [gaming] is probably average age 30 and 60-40 male. Hardcore is average age 25, and 85-15 male.”

 

[ChipotIe]

lol holy shit that Fallout New Vegas murder-a-prostitute-get-called-a-"Good Natured Rascal" example.

That's a bullshit example that is intentionally misleading.


Each area has a fame/ infamy counter for the player. It starts off as neutral then pros start getting weighed against the cons, different amounts yielding different reputations.

For that very specific reputation of good natured rascal you have to max out your fame becoming a hero then committing an infamous act to get that reputation. Not shown is how the law enforcment and stationed military personnel immediately become hostile forcing you to run away or die... as defending yourself would quckly drop your reputation to the worst. This discourages said violence and is usually accidentally done (to anyone in the area, not just pros) to profound negative consequences (locking you out of quests, services, endings) prompting a player to reload a save.

If you were neutral you would have either been immediately Shunned, Hated, or Vilified for that same act.

 

[anaron]

Seeking out deep interpersonal relationships on any level inside of games designed around gunning down hundreds or thousands of people seems misguided.

A grocery store would require an enormous amount of assets to accurately depict the array of available products. Strip clubs are dark and spartan environments that are easy to render, and can at least be more logistically slotted into a game centered around crime.

LOL, I'm cackling

 

[chickdigger802]

reminds me of making a thread about those surprisingly well choreographed poledances and lapdances in games (which was closed after like 5 min).

I agree with the point that these 'sex npcs' are really pointless in many games, and more often than not, the protagonists engaging in those acts is completely out of character. On a side note, strippers in games tend to remind you how shitty clothes are in games still, with underwear just being painted textures. idk, just thinking about the dozens of meetings tied to a game needing a strip club scene or hookers kinda makes me feel ill.

Weird that watch_dogs clip was added. It's actually pretty light on 'sex npcs' besides 1 or 2 peeking 'side events' and the clip used in the video is about a human trafficing ring, in which they did treat the issue as serious as you can in a video game (which is kinda retracted when it just leads to a 'collect 7 items to stop human traffic ring!' ubisoft collectathon).


The middle part of the video about killing women npc confused me a bit though, or I didn't follow her argument. You can kill all npcs without an issue not just women?

i feel like she was getting to some point that went over my head :/